Re: [Slashcode-general] Re: Slashcode-general digest, Vol 1 #148 - 2 msgs

[Frederic F. <ff...@bi...>]

At 09:25 09/09/2001 +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
>Um, don't think so. Depends how you read:

I beg to disagree. If you have to install all the required Perl modules 
manually, the list given in release 1.x works fine, because it's exhaustive 
and given in the right order. The infos given in release 2 assumes that the 
host is connected to the Net, and that you will use the Bundle module to 
let it download all the modules for you.
Call me dumb, but reading the INSTALL that came with release 2, I assumed 
all I needed were 2 Perl modules: Bundle and DBIx::Password. There's so 
much to learn in the computer field, we can't be an expert in all areas...

As usual, the documentation assumes that you're already familiar with the 
product, ie. you know the above. But then, it's a common issue with 
open-source projects: Developers are so used to fidgeting with their 
software that they forget the amount of knowledge they have of their own 
product (natural enough), and nobody wants to write good documentation. 
Hence the killing O'Reilly makes :-) Actually, the INSTALL file that comes 
with SlashCode is better than average, because it actually offers a 
step-by-step procedure while most readme's only give vague, general 
instructions. Hence the traffic in Linux newsgroups...

Between compiling MySQL, Apache + mod_perl + PHP (to test PHPNuke and 
PHPSlash later), checking RedHat's Updates section and updating GCC et al. 
because compiling the above would crash, and installing all the stuff 
needed to check out SlashCode, it took me a good four hours. And that was 
on a brand new RH 7.1 host. If only Linux software came in SETUP.EXE format :-)

>How can you possibly have a machine that's _not_ somehow connected in this 
>day and age! I've been known to install stuff of CPAN over my mobile on 
>the train if necessary! :-)

If you know of a driver for the ECI USB ADSL modem, I'm interested :-) The 
project only started a month ago over at Sourceforge, and haven't had time 
to check if it's usable yet.
To get my second, test Linux host to connect to the Net would require my 
setting up my W2K host as a router to the Net, sthing I didn't get around 
to doing yet. Hence the manual install. It's a bit scarry the number of 
Perl modules on which SlashCode depends, though, because it makes debugging 
harder.

>It comes as shipped:
>
>/usr/lib/perl5/5.6.0/CPAN.pm
>
>perl -mCPAN -eshell

Sorry, I only looked for cpan instead of CPAN (find /usr/lib/perl5 -name 
"cpan*" didn't return anything.) In any case, since it's not connected to 
the Net...

>Zope and PHP suck in so many and varied ways :-)

I checked out Zope a bit before SlashCode, and it looks quite interesting. 
Could you tell us what you don't like about Zope or PHP-based solutions 
before I spend more time evaluating alternatives? Currently, my list 
include Zope, PHPSlash,  Midgard,  PHPNuke,  daCode, Attila,  vBulletin, 
Ultimate Bulletin Board, UserLand Frontier/Manila/Radio, ThatWare, 
SlashCode, SquishDot, JetSpeed, cog.

BTW, I still don't understand why nobody comes up with a dedicated client 
to allow users to write documentation in a WYSIWYG editor, just like Notes. 
What's wrong with using eg. GTK to write GUI-independent clients?

There's no way anybody will write 50-pages documents in a tiny edit box in 
a browser, especially non-technical users. I cannot tell marketing or HR 
people to write they stuff in eg. Word or Namo WebEditor, and copy-paste 
the HTML output into the edit box in Zope or SlashCode just to upload a new 
document. With Notes, it's a breeze: Create | MyForm, type the document in 
its WYSIWYG editor, File | Save. Done. Even the Zope interface is barely 
usable for anything more than a few lines worth of text ("Yes, dear, you 
_have_ to type <B>Important</B> if you want to turn Important into 
bold"...), but with its support for WebDAV and a file tree on the left, it 
looks like a better alternative.

>And your next install will be so much quicker. Glad you didn't have MySQL 
>issues too...

I had them last summer when I learned about MySQL :-) Once you know how to 
build Apache and the rest, it's a no-brainer (just takes time compiling), 
but it's definitely not for newbies. I wish sites offered basic demos that 
came with all the required modules so that newbies can be up and running in 
a few minutes just like Windows programs, and _then_, teach them how to set 
up the whole thing manually in case they need customized features.

There's hardly things more frustrating than having to spend days before 
getting a software to run because developers refuse to ship a complete 
application, and instead, expect you to find and compile a whole bunch of 
dependencies. What's wrong with installing an extra copy of eg. MySQL in a 
home directory just to try out a demo, and remove the thing if you want to 
install the real thing? Considering how cheap hard disks are these days, I 
don't care about keeping 40 copies of MFC42.DLL, each in a home directory 
and used only by a single application if that means I can up and running in 
a minute clicking on a couple of Next buttons.
I doubt Windows or Macintosh would be as successful as they are if users 
has to find + compile a whole bunch of independent modules before trying 
out a new application. There's got to be a better way to distribute 
applications on Linux.

I'm done :-)

Thx for the help anyway.
FF.