From: Thomas H. <th...@to...> - 2013-12-06 17:19:10
|
Hi , very interesting project !!! I've immediately started to develop an adapter for the impulse waveform viewer (eclipse based - http://toem.de/index.php/projects/impulse <http://toem.de/index.php/projects/impulse> ). The adapter is rather simple and uses the cli interface. (EPL license) I ordered a logic analyser , but did not arrive so far. So i used the demo device. Works quite nice ! -- see attatched gif (version 0.5.20) The configuration dialog might be too simple. But a good starting point. I you have any ideas or comments -please let me know ! Cheers, thomas P.S: there is currently no documentation how to get it startet with sigrok (needs to be done !!). * Install impulse / Show "Signal Ports" View / Add Sigrok Adapter / Edit / Open |
From: Martin L. <mar...@ea...> - 2013-12-08 12:58:49
|
Hi Thomas, Thanks for getting in touch. I was going to note that going through the CLI would not be a good way of doing this, but I saw your "EPL license" note and investigated. I understand now that you are required to go through the CLI because of the license incompatibility between Eclipse's EPL and the GPL. It's a shame we have this situation, but I don't see much that can be done about it. Be aware that since the libsigrok and libsigrokdecode APIs are the normal method of accessing sigrok functionality, you're going to be on your own going through the CLI. It is intended as an end-user tool and there is no guarantee that options, output formats and so forth will not change without warning in future versions. I did install impulse to have a look at what you've done but wasn't able to get very far. I could open a VCD file but not see any waveform, and couldn't see how to add a Sigrok source - the adapter is installed, but in Preferences/Impulse/Sources, the Add option only shows 'OPC Adapter' and 'Multi Adapter Port'. (I'm running Eclipse 3.8 from Ubuntu 12.10.) Regards, Martin On Fri, Dec 06, 2013 at 06:18:57PM +0100, Thomas Haber wrote: > > Hi , > > very interesting project !!! > I've immediately started to develop an adapter for the impulse > waveform viewer (eclipse based - > http://toem.de/index.php/projects/impulse > <http://toem.de/index.php/projects/impulse> ). > The adapter is rather simple and uses the cli interface. (EPL license) > I ordered a logic analyser , but did not arrive so far. So i used > the demo device. > Works quite nice ! -- see attatched gif (version 0.5.20) > The configuration dialog might be too simple. But a good starting point. > > I you have any ideas or comments -please let me know ! > > Cheers, > thomas > > P.S: there is currently no documentation how to get it startet with > sigrok (needs to be done !!). > * Install impulse / Show "Signal Ports" View / Add Sigrok Adapter / > Edit / Open > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK > Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. > Download it for free now! > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > sigrok-devel mailing list > sig...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sigrok-devel |
From: Thomas H. <th...@to...> - 2013-12-08 16:18:08
|
Hi Martin, thanks for your comments. On 08.12.2013 13:58, Martin Ling wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > Thanks for getting in touch. > > I was going to note that going through the CLI would not be a good way > of doing this, but I saw your "EPL license" note and investigated. I > understand now that you are required to go through the CLI because of > the license incompatibility between Eclipse's EPL and the GPL. It's a > shame we have this situation, but I don't see much that can be done > about it. Yes. > Be aware that since the libsigrok and libsigrokdecode APIs are the > normal method of accessing sigrok functionality, you're going to be on > your own going through the CLI. It is intended as an end-user tool and > there is no guarantee that options, output formats and so forth will > not change without warning in future versions. I undestand ! Problem is that i'm not getting sufficient informations about the devices from it. I would like to make the dialog more usable like a combo with the available devices or available rates. With scan i get the device names but don't get the associated drivers/device. > > I did install impulse to have a look at what you've done but wasn't able > to get very far. I could open a VCD file but not see any waveform, and First thing is that you need to drag&Drop the signals or scopes you want to see from the signal area (left side) into the configuration area. If you do this the first time (no configuration set) you will get asked to add a configuration. > couldn't see how to add a Sigrok source - the adapter is installed, but > in Preferences/Impulse/Sources, the Add option only shows 'OPC Adapter' > and 'Multi Adapter Port'. (I'm running Eclipse 3.8 from Ubuntu 12.10.) Currently you need to add a Multiport Adapter (you combine several input with this), and then add the Sigrok Adapter (i forgot to make it available as a top level port) . Best regards, thomas > Regards, > > > Martin > > On Fri, Dec 06, 2013 at 06:18:57PM +0100, Thomas Haber wrote: >> Hi , >> >> very interesting project !!! >> I've immediately started to develop an adapter for the impulse >> waveform viewer (eclipse based - >> http://toem.de/index.php/projects/impulse >> <http://toem.de/index.php/projects/impulse> ). >> The adapter is rather simple and uses the cli interface. (EPL license) >> I ordered a logic analyser , but did not arrive so far. So i used >> the demo device. >> Works quite nice ! -- see attatched gif (version 0.5.20) >> The configuration dialog might be too simple. But a good starting point. >> >> I you have any ideas or comments -please let me know ! >> >> Cheers, >> thomas >> >> P.S: there is currently no documentation how to get it startet with >> sigrok (needs to be done !!). >> * Install impulse / Show "Signal Ports" View / Add Sigrok Adapter / >> Edit / Open >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK >> Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. >> Download it for free now! >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> _______________________________________________ >> sigrok-devel mailing list >> sig...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sigrok-devel > > -- Mit den besten Grüßen , Thomas Haber _________________________________________________ th...@to... <mailto:th...@to...> http://toem.de Lützowstrasse 166 42653 Solingen Phone: +49-212-64297 25 Fax: +49-212-64297 13 |
From: Martin L. <mar...@ea...> - 2013-12-08 18:25:53
|
Hi Thomas, On Sun, Dec 08, 2013 at 05:17:54PM +0100, Thomas Haber wrote: > > >Be aware that since the libsigrok and libsigrokdecode APIs are the > >normal method of accessing sigrok functionality, you're going to be > >on your own going through the CLI. It is intended as an end-user tool > >and there is no guarantee that options, output formats and so forth > >will not change without warning in future versions. > > I undestand ! Problem is that i'm not getting sufficient > informations about the devices from it. I would like to make the > dialog more usable like a combo with the available devices or > available rates. With scan i get the device names but don't get the > associated drivers/device. The first thing in each line returned by --scan is the driver name, which is what is required by the --driver option. You can get a list of supported drivers, input/output formats and protocol decoders with --version. The --show option will list supported settings for a given device. You are welcome to submit bug reports or patches if you feel that sigrok-cli could be improved by outputting additional information, but do bear in mind that these would be considered in terms of whether they improve sigrok-cli for the end user. It's not the aim of the program to provide a machine-readable CLI mapping of all libsigrok functionality. I would note also that although it's a commonly used guideline, the fact of going through an existing CLI doesn't automatically imply compliance with the terms of the GPL. The real question is whether what you are producing is a "derived work" of the GPL code in the specіfic legal sense of that term, which is harder to answer definitively. To provide some comparison: Eclipse is often integrated with GCC, by calling GCC on the command line and working with its output. In that instance any other compiler could be substituted, so it's hard to argue that the result is a "derived work" of GCC, and this is generally considered OK. In this case however, you are adding code specifically to interface with sigrok - no other existing software could be substituted. As the level of integration increases it becomes progressively harder to argue that the result is not a derived work. There's a limit somewhere, and I can't autoritatively tell you where it is. Sorry for the lecture - I just don't want to see anyone running off selling fancy software that looks for all intents and purposes like it's linked with libsigrok but is actually calling sigrok-cli behind the scenes for everything, and then claim that's permitted because some dev said so on the mailing list... Also: I don't speak for the rest of the project here, only for myself. Martin |
From: Thomas H. <th...@to...> - 2013-12-08 20:44:44
|
Hi Martin, many thanks for your thoughts and informations. Discussing the GPL is always nasty. I once asked the GPL guys themselves about a problem and their answer was,i should ask a lawyer !! - unbelievable ! But i think your comparison is not correct. The GCC plugin in eclipse is also specific to GCC, with GCC options and GCC error parser. Other compiler means other options and other error parser. Same with Sigrok, plugin code is specific for Sigrok, but i have other plugins for other external devices like opc. The total does not depend on sigrok. In both cases just the executable is called, no linking, should be ok with GPL to my understanding !?! Have you been able to see signals with impulse ? Would be very keen to get your impression. best regards, thomas On 08.12.2013 19:25, Martin Ling wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > On Sun, Dec 08, 2013 at 05:17:54PM +0100, Thomas Haber wrote: >>> Be aware that since the libsigrok and libsigrokdecode APIs are the >>> normal method of accessing sigrok functionality, you're going to be >>> on your own going through the CLI. It is intended as an end-user tool >>> and there is no guarantee that options, output formats and so forth >>> will not change without warning in future versions. >> I undestand ! Problem is that i'm not getting sufficient >> informations about the devices from it. I would like to make the >> dialog more usable like a combo with the available devices or >> available rates. With scan i get the device names but don't get the >> associated drivers/device. > The first thing in each line returned by --scan is the driver name, > which is what is required by the --driver option. You can get a list of > supported drivers, input/output formats and protocol decoders with > --version. The --show option will list supported settings for a given > device. > > You are welcome to submit bug reports or patches if you feel that > sigrok-cli could be improved by outputting additional information, but > do bear in mind that these would be considered in terms of whether they > improve sigrok-cli for the end user. It's not the aim of the program to > provide a machine-readable CLI mapping of all libsigrok functionality. > > I would note also that although it's a commonly used guideline, the fact > of going through an existing CLI doesn't automatically imply compliance > with the terms of the GPL. The real question is whether what you are > producing is a "derived work" of the GPL code in the specіfic legal > sense of that term, which is harder to answer definitively. > > To provide some comparison: Eclipse is often integrated with GCC, by > calling GCC on the command line and working with its output. In that > instance any other compiler could be substituted, so it's hard to argue > that the result is a "derived work" of GCC, and this is generally > considered OK. > > In this case however, you are adding code specifically to interface with > sigrok - no other existing software could be substituted. As the level > of integration increases it becomes progressively harder to argue that > the result is not a derived work. There's a limit somewhere, and I can't > autoritatively tell you where it is. > > Sorry for the lecture - I just don't want to see anyone running off > selling fancy software that looks for all intents and purposes like it's > linked with libsigrok but is actually calling sigrok-cli behind the > scenes for everything, and then claim that's permitted because some > dev said so on the mailing list... > > Also: I don't speak for the rest of the project here, only for myself. > > > Martin -- Mit den besten Grüßen , Thomas Haber _________________________________________________ th...@to... <mailto:th...@to...> http://toem.de Lützowstrasse 166 42653 Solingen Phone: +49-212-64297 25 Fax: +49-212-64297 13 |
From: Martin L. <mar...@ea...> - 2013-12-08 23:07:13
|
On Sun, Dec 08, 2013 at 09:44:26PM +0100, Thomas Haber wrote: > > Discussing the GPL is always nasty. It often ends up that way, yes. :) > I once asked the GPL guys themselves about a problem > and their answer was,i should ask a lawyer !! - unbelievable ! It's not really that unbelievable a response. The FSF wrote the license but that doesn't mean they can advise you appropriately on its implications for *you*. They can say what their intent was when writing it, and they can provide their own interpretations on various issues, and those may carry some weight in some situations. But it would be up to a court - not the FSF - to decide on what effect the terms of the license really have in the event of any serious dispute. In that situation іt would not be appropriate for the FSF to be advising you, and that's why they won't give individual advice. Of course, even if you did hire a lawyer to ask, you would probably not get a straight answer. :) But you would at least be getting qualified advice from someone who was required to be acting for your interests. > But i think your comparison is not correct. > The GCC plugin in eclipse is also specific to GCC, with GCC options > and GCC error parser. > Other compiler means other options and other error parser. > Same with Sigrok, plugin code is specific for Sigrok, > but i have other plugins for other external devices like opc. The > total does not depend on sigrok. > In both cases just the executable is called, no linking, should be > ok with GPL to my understanding !?! I'm not saying that having some code that is specific to GCC or Sigrok automatically implies a derived work. It is a quite straightforward and reasonable argument, that having such "adapter" code to help users use other programs, doesn't mean that the result is substantially derived from them. But it's not the case that "just calling an executable" is *always* permissible under the GPL, either. Consider the extreme case: you write a command-line program that lets you call any function of the libsigrok API with any arguments. You link that program with libsigrok, and release it under the GPL. Then you write another non-GPL library which calls that executable to do everything, and exposes the functionality to other non-GPL programs. By the "just running an executable is always OK" rule, that would be fine. Nothing non-GPL is linked to anything GPL. But it's quite obvious that the new non-GPL library would actually be very much a derived work of libsigrok, and thus subject to the terms of the license. So there is a limit somewhere; exactly where it is would be hard to define. I'm also not suggesting there's anything wrong with what you're doing now; it looks pretty reasonable to me personally. Also, your project as a whole is clearly usable without sigrok, and that would be a significant factor against it being considered a derived work. But if you think that going via a CLI is *always* okay, and are talking about how to extend sigrok-cli to make that easier to do... well, hopefully you see why I have some concerns about that point of view. > Have you been able to see signals with impulse ? > Would be very keen to get your impression. When I open a VCD file (generated by sigrok-cli from the random/1mhz_clock/1mhz_clock_1channels.sr file in the sigrok-dumps repository), and drag the trace to the view, I get what you see in the attached screenshot. It's like the view is zoomed way out, but the zoom controls don't seem to work, and playing with them seems prone to locking up Eclipse with 100% CPU. I gather that Eclipse 3.8 is somewhat abandoned, so perhaps this is just an issue with that version. I have also created a multi-port adapter with a Sigrok source per your instructions, but I don't see how to then use it. Martin |
From: Thomas H. <th...@to...> - 2013-12-09 06:44:38
|
I don't see any element in your configuration. The zoom doesnt do, as there is nothing to zoom. Like in gtkwave you need to drag the signal into the configuration tree. regads, thomas On 09.12.2013 00:13, Martin Ling wrote: > On Sun, Dec 08, 2013 at 11:07:05PM +0000, Martin Ling wrote: >> When I open a VCD file (generated by sigrok-cli from the >> random/1mhz_clock/1mhz_clock_1channels.sr file in the sigrok-dumps >> repository), and drag the trace to the view, I get what you see in the >> attached screenshot. It's like the view is zoomed way out, but the zoom >> controls don't seem to work, and playing with them seems prone to >> locking up Eclipse with 100% CPU. > Forgot the screenshot; attached now. > > > Martin -- Mit den besten Grüßen , Thomas Haber _________________________________________________ th...@to... <mailto:th...@to...> http://toem.de Lützowstrasse 166 42653 Solingen Phone: +49-212-64297 25 Fax: +49-212-64297 13 |
From: Martin L. <mar...@ea...> - 2013-12-09 13:29:43
|
On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 07:44:23AM +0100, Thomas Haber wrote: > > I don't see any element in your configuration. > The zoom doesnt do, as there is nothing to zoom. > Like in gtkwave you need to drag the signal into the configuration tree. Ah! I had been trying to drag it to the configuration, or to the signal viewing area. It didn't occur to me that I would need to drag it to the empty space below the configuration. Consider this feedback. :-) Martin |
From: Thomas H. <th...@to...> - 2013-12-09 13:09:44
|
Hi MArtin, I prepared some documentation to make it easier. http://toem.de/index.php/projects/impulse/articles/36-using-the-sigrok-adapter regards, thomas n 09.12.2013 00:13, Martin Ling wrote: > On Sun, Dec 08, 2013 at 11:07:05PM +0000, Martin Ling wrote: >> When I open a VCD file (generated by sigrok-cli from the >> random/1mhz_clock/1mhz_clock_1channels.sr file in the sigrok-dumps >> repository), and drag the trace to the view, I get what you see in the >> attached screenshot. It's like the view is zoomed way out, but the zoom >> controls don't seem to work, and playing with them seems prone to >> locking up Eclipse with 100% CPU. > Forgot the screenshot; attached now. > > > Martin |
From: Martin L. <mar...@ea...> - 2013-12-09 13:46:54
|
Thanks, got the adapter going now. The problem was that I had no idea about the Signal Ports view (and even when your documentation mentioned it, had to figure out how to find that view through Eclipse, which I don't use much). I had added the adapter already via Preferences (the obvious place to look after installing a new plugin, for me) but then there was no clue there about how to use it. A hint in the impulse preferences dialog would have sorted me out. Similarly a "drag signals here" in the empty space of the configuration tree would have unstuck me. Little things like that help a lot with UX. Seems to work okay! Personally I still doubt you'll find me opening Eclipse to do my signal analysis, but for those using this environment already I can certainly see the integration being good to have. Martin On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 02:09:33PM +0100, Thomas Haber wrote: > > Hi MArtin, > > I prepared some documentation to make it easier. > > http://toem.de/index.php/projects/impulse/articles/36-using-the-sigrok-adapter > > regards, > thomas > > n 09.12.2013 00:13, Martin Ling wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 08, 2013 at 11:07:05PM +0000, Martin Ling wrote: > > When I open a VCD file (generated by sigrok-cli from the > random/1mhz_clock/1mhz_clock_1channels.sr file in the sigrok-dumps > repository), and drag the trace to the view, I get what you see in the > attached screenshot. It's like the view is zoomed way out, but the zoom > controls don't seem to work, and playing with them seems prone to > locking up Eclipse with 100% CPU. > > Forgot the screenshot; attached now. > > > Martin |