From: David N. <dav...@gm...> - 2014-03-20 04:35:21
|
Hi all, In several places in the SED-ML L1V2 specification, notably section 2.2.2.1, the use of MIRIAM URN's (or URI's) is recommended for identifying models. BioModels DB identifiers are used as an example of this "best practice". But as far as I know, following discussion at COMBINE last year, BioModels DB identifiers are not persistent identifiers for the same resource - inasmuch as a particular model (SBML document) identified by a given ID can change between releases of the BioModels DB. If my understanding of this is correct (and it could well be very much the opposite of correct), then BioModels identifiers suffer the same problem as models in the Physiome Repository in that you need to know not only what model to use, but what version of the model to use, in order to unambiguously identify the model. For models in the Physiome Repository this would correspond to the actual version in the history of the model and for BioModels DB it would correspond to the database release number, I guess. Now, the Physiome Repository provides URLs for all versions of a given model or you can keep the SED-ML document in the same workspace and use relative URLs to keep everything at the same version. But we have not yet been able to come up with a useful scheme to add this repository as a MIRIAM resource. Does this mean that there are no useful MIRIAM resources which provide model identifiers? Should we look at removing that recommendation from future SED-ML specifications? or, better to look at how we can define MIRIAM resources which do meet the requirements of the first paragraph in section 2.2.2.1 of the SED-ML L1V2 specification? Something to discuss at HARMONY perhaps... Cheers, David. |
From: Pedro M. <ped...@ma...> - 2014-03-20 09:26:39
|
Hi David, I think the idea of persistent model identifiers is a good one and repositories really should follow this and make such IDs stable and different from version to version of the model. I think we should keep this in the spec, if anything to promote the appearence of such stable identifiers. Removing it from the spec will not achieve this goal... On the other hand, my own preference would be to embed the model entirely within the SED-ML document. This would have the virtue of assuring the existence of the model together with the operations on it. (I know it makes the document too long, but is this not just a technicality?). But yes indeed let's discuss this during HARMONY. best wishes Pedro On 03/20/2014 04:34 AM, David Nickerson wrote: > Hi all, > > In several places in the SED-ML L1V2 specification, notably section > 2.2.2.1, the use of MIRIAM URN's (or URI's) is recommended for > identifying models. BioModels DB identifiers are used as an example of > this "best practice". But as far as I know, following discussion at > COMBINE last year, BioModels DB identifiers are not persistent > identifiers for the same resource - inasmuch as a particular model > (SBML document) identified by a given ID can change between releases > of the BioModels DB. > > If my understanding of this is correct (and it could well be very much > the opposite of correct), then BioModels identifiers suffer the same > problem as models in the Physiome Repository in that you need to know > not only what model to use, but what version of the model to use, in > order to unambiguously identify the model. For models in the Physiome > Repository this would correspond to the actual version in the history > of the model and for BioModels DB it would correspond to the database > release number, I guess. > > Now, the Physiome Repository provides URLs for all versions of a given > model or you can keep the SED-ML document in the same workspace and > use relative URLs to keep everything at the same version. But we have > not yet been able to come up with a useful scheme to add this > repository as a MIRIAM resource. > > Does this mean that there are no useful MIRIAM resources which provide > model identifiers? Should we look at removing that recommendation from > future SED-ML specifications? or, better to look at how we can define > MIRIAM resources which do meet the requirements of the first paragraph > in section 2.2.2.1 of the SED-ML L1V2 specification? Something to > discuss at HARMONY perhaps... > > > > Cheers, > David. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > _______________________________________________ > SED-ML-discuss mailing list > SED...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sed-ml-discuss > -- Pedro Mendes Professor of Computational Systems Biology School of Computer Science Manchester Centre for Integrative Systems Biology University of Manchester Manchester Institute of Biotechnology 131 Princess Street Manchester, M1 7DN, U.K. |
From: Nicolas Le N. <n.l...@gm...> - 2014-03-20 09:59:32
|
On 20/03/14 09:26, Pedro Mendes wrote: > I think the idea of persistent model identifiers is a good one and > repositories really should follow this and make such IDs stable and > different from version to version of the model. I entirely agree, but this is the job of the data providers, i.e. the model database. Versioning is quite high on BioModels Db's todo list. There are no problems to cover for versions with Identifiers.org URIs. UniProt and Reactome provide versioning for instance. The advised form for dataset identifiers is MAIN_IDENTIFIER.VERSION, with a resulting URI http://identifiers.org/database/MAIN_IDENTIFIER.VERSION > On the other hand, my own preference would be to embed the model > entirely within the SED-ML document. This would have the virtue of > assuring the existence of the model together with the operations on it. > (I know it makes the document too long, but is this not just a > technicality?). This is being addressed with the COMBINE archive, that contains the models, the simulation descriptions and whatever other information is necessary. Cheers > But yes indeed let's discuss this during HARMONY. > > best wishes > Pedro > > On 03/20/2014 04:34 AM, David Nickerson wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> In several places in the SED-ML L1V2 specification, notably section >> 2.2.2.1, the use of MIRIAM URN's (or URI's) is recommended for >> identifying models. BioModels DB identifiers are used as an example of >> this "best practice". But as far as I know, following discussion at >> COMBINE last year, BioModels DB identifiers are not persistent >> identifiers for the same resource - inasmuch as a particular model >> (SBML document) identified by a given ID can change between releases >> of the BioModels DB. >> >> If my understanding of this is correct (and it could well be very much >> the opposite of correct), then BioModels identifiers suffer the same >> problem as models in the Physiome Repository in that you need to know >> not only what model to use, but what version of the model to use, in >> order to unambiguously identify the model. For models in the Physiome >> Repository this would correspond to the actual version in the history >> of the model and for BioModels DB it would correspond to the database >> release number, I guess. >> >> Now, the Physiome Repository provides URLs for all versions of a given >> model or you can keep the SED-ML document in the same workspace and >> use relative URLs to keep everything at the same version. But we have >> not yet been able to come up with a useful scheme to add this >> repository as a MIRIAM resource. >> >> Does this mean that there are no useful MIRIAM resources which provide >> model identifiers? Should we look at removing that recommendation from >> future SED-ML specifications? or, better to look at how we can define >> MIRIAM resources which do meet the requirements of the first paragraph >> in section 2.2.2.1 of the SED-ML L1V2 specification? Something to >> discuss at HARMONY perhaps... >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> David. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >> _______________________________________________ >> SED-ML-discuss mailing list >> SED...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sed-ml-discuss >> > -- Nicolas LE NOVERE, Babraham Institute, Babraham Campus Cambridge, CB22 3AT Tel: +441223496433 Mob:+447833147074 n.l...@gm... orcid.org//0000-0002-6309-7327 http://lenoverelab.org/perso/lenov/ Skype:n.lenovere twitter:@lenovere http://nlenov.wordpress.com/ |
From: Nicolas Le N. <n.l...@gm...> - 2014-03-20 10:05:19
|
Examples of versionned URIs: http://identifiers.org/uniprot/P12345.1 http://identifiers.org/uniprot/P12345.89 http://identifiers.org/uniprot/P12345 On 20/03/14 04:34, David Nickerson wrote: > Hi all, > > In several places in the SED-ML L1V2 specification, notably section > 2.2.2.1, the use of MIRIAM URN's (or URI's) is recommended for > identifying models. BioModels DB identifiers are used as an example of > this "best practice". But as far as I know, following discussion at > COMBINE last year, BioModels DB identifiers are not persistent > identifiers for the same resource - inasmuch as a particular model > (SBML document) identified by a given ID can change between releases > of the BioModels DB. > > If my understanding of this is correct (and it could well be very much > the opposite of correct), then BioModels identifiers suffer the same > problem as models in the Physiome Repository in that you need to know > not only what model to use, but what version of the model to use, in > order to unambiguously identify the model. For models in the Physiome > Repository this would correspond to the actual version in the history > of the model and for BioModels DB it would correspond to the database > release number, I guess. > > Now, the Physiome Repository provides URLs for all versions of a given > model or you can keep the SED-ML document in the same workspace and > use relative URLs to keep everything at the same version. But we have > not yet been able to come up with a useful scheme to add this > repository as a MIRIAM resource. > > Does this mean that there are no useful MIRIAM resources which provide > model identifiers? Should we look at removing that recommendation from > future SED-ML specifications? or, better to look at how we can define > MIRIAM resources which do meet the requirements of the first paragraph > in section 2.2.2.1 of the SED-ML L1V2 specification? Something to > discuss at HARMONY perhaps... > > > > Cheers, > David. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > _______________________________________________ > SED-ML-discuss mailing list > SED...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sed-ml-discuss > -- Nicolas LE NOVERE, Babraham Institute, Babraham Campus Cambridge, CB22 3AT Tel: +441223496433 Mob:+447833147074 n.l...@gm... orcid.org//0000-0002-6309-7327 http://lenoverelab.org/perso/lenov/ Skype:n.lenovere twitter:@lenovere http://nlenov.wordpress.com/ |
From: Oliver R. <cu...@gm...> - 2014-03-21 09:50:39
|
Hello, On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 6:05 AM, Nicolas Le Novere <n.l...@gm...>wrote: > Examples of versionned URIs: > > http://identifiers.org/uniprot/P12345.1 > http://identifiers.org/uniprot/P12345.89 > http://identifiers.org/uniprot/P12345 > But these all refer to the same protein, while different versions of a model are actually different models, or am I missing something? Best, Oliver > > On 20/03/14 04:34, David Nickerson wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > In several places in the SED-ML L1V2 specification, notably section > > 2.2.2.1, the use of MIRIAM URN's (or URI's) is recommended for > > identifying models. BioModels DB identifiers are used as an example of > > this "best practice". But as far as I know, following discussion at > > COMBINE last year, BioModels DB identifiers are not persistent > > identifiers for the same resource - inasmuch as a particular model > > (SBML document) identified by a given ID can change between releases > > of the BioModels DB. > > > > If my understanding of this is correct (and it could well be very much > > the opposite of correct), then BioModels identifiers suffer the same > > problem as models in the Physiome Repository in that you need to know > > not only what model to use, but what version of the model to use, in > > order to unambiguously identify the model. For models in the Physiome > > Repository this would correspond to the actual version in the history > > of the model and for BioModels DB it would correspond to the database > > release number, I guess. > > > > Now, the Physiome Repository provides URLs for all versions of a given > > model or you can keep the SED-ML document in the same workspace and > > use relative URLs to keep everything at the same version. But we have > > not yet been able to come up with a useful scheme to add this > > repository as a MIRIAM resource. > > > > Does this mean that there are no useful MIRIAM resources which provide > > model identifiers? Should we look at removing that recommendation from > > future SED-ML specifications? or, better to look at how we can define > > MIRIAM resources which do meet the requirements of the first paragraph > > in section 2.2.2.1 of the SED-ML L1V2 specification? Something to > > discuss at HARMONY perhaps... > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > David. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and > their > > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > > _______________________________________________ > > SED-ML-discuss mailing list > > SED...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sed-ml-discuss > > > > > -- > Nicolas LE NOVERE, Babraham Institute, Babraham Campus Cambridge, CB22 3AT > Tel: +441223496433 Mob:+447833147074 n.l...@gm... > orcid.org//0000-0002-6309-7327 http://lenoverelab.org/perso/lenov/ > Skype:n.lenovere twitter:@lenovere http://nlenov.wordpress.com/ > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > _______________________________________________ > SED-ML-discuss mailing list > SED...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sed-ml-discuss > -- Oliver Ruebenacker Founder at Relomics Consulting <http://www.relomics.com> Be always grateful, but never satisfied. |
From: Nicolas Le N. <n.l...@gm...> - 2014-03-21 09:56:34
|
On 21/03/14 09:50, Oliver Ruebenacker wrote: > > Hello, > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 6:05 AM, Nicolas Le Novere <n.l...@gm... <mailto:n.l...@gm...>> wrote: > > Examples of versionned URIs: > > http://identifiers.org/uniprot/P12345.1 > http://identifiers.org/uniprot/P12345.89 > http://identifiers.org/uniprot/P12345 > > > But these all refer to the same protein, while different versions of a model are actually different models, or am I missing something? Different versions of a Uniprot entry refer to the same protein, but can contain different or even contradictory information. Same with the model. I was merely giving examples of Identifiers.org pointing to versioned information. > Best, > Oliver > > > > On 20/03/14 04:34, David Nickerson wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > In several places in the SED-ML L1V2 specification, notably section > > 2.2.2.1, the use of MIRIAM URN's (or URI's) is recommended for > > identifying models. BioModels DB identifiers are used as an example of > > this "best practice". But as far as I know, following discussion at > > COMBINE last year, BioModels DB identifiers are not persistent > > identifiers for the same resource - inasmuch as a particular model > > (SBML document) identified by a given ID can change between releases > > of the BioModels DB. > > > > If my understanding of this is correct (and it could well be very much > > the opposite of correct), then BioModels identifiers suffer the same > > problem as models in the Physiome Repository in that you need to know > > not only what model to use, but what version of the model to use, in > > order to unambiguously identify the model. For models in the Physiome > > Repository this would correspond to the actual version in the history > > of the model and for BioModels DB it would correspond to the database > > release number, I guess. > > > > Now, the Physiome Repository provides URLs for all versions of a given > > model or you can keep the SED-ML document in the same workspace and > > use relative URLs to keep everything at the same version. But we have > > not yet been able to come up with a useful scheme to add this > > repository as a MIRIAM resource. > > > > Does this mean that there are no useful MIRIAM resources which provide > > model identifiers? Should we look at removing that recommendation from > > future SED-ML specifications? or, better to look at how we can define > > MIRIAM resources which do meet the requirements of the first paragraph > > in section 2.2.2.1 of the SED-ML L1V2 specification? Something to > > discuss at HARMONY perhaps... > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > David. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their > > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > > _______________________________________________ > > SED-ML-discuss mailing list > > SED...@li... <mailto:SED...@li...> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sed-ml-discuss > > > > > -- > Nicolas LE NOVERE, Babraham Institute, Babraham Campus Cambridge, CB22 3AT > Tel: +441223496433 <tel:%2B441223496433> Mob:+447833147074 <tel:%2B447833147074> n.l...@gm... <mailto:n.l...@gm...> > orcid.org//0000-0002-6309-7327 <http://orcid.org//0000-0002-6309-7327> http://lenoverelab.org/perso/lenov/ > Skype:n.lenovere twitter:@lenovere http://nlenov.wordpress.com/ > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > _______________________________________________ > SED-ML-discuss mailing list > SED...@li... <mailto:SED...@li...> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sed-ml-discuss > > > > > -- > Oliver Ruebenacker > Founder at Relomics Consulting <http://www.relomics.com> > Be always grateful, but never satisfied. -- Nicolas LE NOVERE, Babraham Institute, Babraham Campus Cambridge, CB22 3AT Tel: +441223496433 Mob:+447833147074 n.l...@gm... orcid.org//0000-0002-6309-7327 http://lenoverelab.org/perso/lenov/ Skype:n.lenovere twitter:@lenovere http://nlenov.wordpress.com/ |
From: Oliver R. <cu...@gm...> - 2014-03-21 10:02:40
|
Hello, On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Nicolas Le Novere <n.l...@gm...>wrote: > On 21/03/14 09:50, Oliver Ruebenacker wrote: > >> >> Hello, >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 6:05 AM, Nicolas Le Novere <n.l...@gm...<mailto: >> n.l...@gm...>> wrote: >> >> Examples of versionned URIs: >> >> http://identifiers.org/uniprot/P12345.1 >> http://identifiers.org/uniprot/P12345.89 >> http://identifiers.org/uniprot/P12345 >> >> >> But these all refer to the same protein, while different versions of a >> model are actually different models, or am I missing something? >> > > Different versions of a Uniprot entry refer to the same protein, but can > contain different or even contradictory information. Same with the model. I > was merely giving examples of Identifiers.org pointing to versioned > information. > The age-old question: do these identifiers refer to things (protein, model, etc) or to records about things? How do identifiers tell us whether two things are the same? Best, Oliver > > Best, >> Oliver >> >> >> >> On 20/03/14 04:34, David Nickerson wrote: >> > Hi all, >> > >> > In several places in the SED-ML L1V2 specification, notably section >> > 2.2.2.1, the use of MIRIAM URN's (or URI's) is recommended for >> > identifying models. BioModels DB identifiers are used as an >> example of >> > this "best practice". But as far as I know, following discussion at >> > COMBINE last year, BioModels DB identifiers are not persistent >> > identifiers for the same resource - inasmuch as a particular model >> > (SBML document) identified by a given ID can change between >> releases >> > of the BioModels DB. >> > >> > If my understanding of this is correct (and it could well be very >> much >> > the opposite of correct), then BioModels identifiers suffer the >> same >> > problem as models in the Physiome Repository in that you need to >> know >> > not only what model to use, but what version of the model to use, >> in >> > order to unambiguously identify the model. For models in the >> Physiome >> > Repository this would correspond to the actual version in the >> history >> > of the model and for BioModels DB it would correspond to the >> database >> > release number, I guess. >> > >> > Now, the Physiome Repository provides URLs for all versions of a >> given >> > model or you can keep the SED-ML document in the same workspace and >> > use relative URLs to keep everything at the same version. But we >> have >> > not yet been able to come up with a useful scheme to add this >> > repository as a MIRIAM resource. >> > >> > Does this mean that there are no useful MIRIAM resources which >> provide >> > model identifiers? Should we look at removing that recommendation >> from >> > future SED-ML specifications? or, better to look at how we can >> define >> > MIRIAM resources which do meet the requirements of the first >> paragraph >> > in section 2.2.2.1 of the SED-ML L1V2 specification? Something to >> > discuss at HARMONY perhaps... >> > >> > >> > >> > Cheers, >> > David. >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------------ >> > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases >> and their >> > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >> > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! >> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >> > _______________________________________________ >> > SED-ML-discuss mailing list >> > SED...@li... <mailto:SED-ML-discuss@lists. >> sourceforge.net> >> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sed-ml-discuss >> > >> >> >> -- >> Nicolas LE NOVERE, Babraham Institute, Babraham Campus Cambridge, >> CB22 3AT >> Tel: +441223496433 <tel:%2B441223496433> Mob:+447833147074<tel:%2B447833147074> >> n.l...@gm... <mailto:n.l...@gm...> >> orcid.org//0000-0002-6309-7327 <http://orcid.org//0000-0002-6309-7327> >> http://lenoverelab.org/perso/lenov/ >> >> Skype:n.lenovere twitter:@lenovere http://nlenov.wordpress.com/ >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------------ >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and >> their >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >> _______________________________________________ >> SED-ML-discuss mailing list >> SED...@li... <mailto:SED-ML-discuss@lists. >> sourceforge.net> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sed-ml-discuss >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Oliver Ruebenacker >> Founder at Relomics Consulting <http://www.relomics.com> >> >> Be always grateful, but never satisfied. >> > > > -- > Nicolas LE NOVERE, Babraham Institute, Babraham Campus Cambridge, CB22 3AT > Tel: +441223496433 Mob:+447833147074 n.l...@gm... > orcid.org//0000-0002-6309-7327 http://lenoverelab.org/perso/lenov/ > Skype:n.lenovere twitter:@lenovere http://nlenov.wordpress.com/ > > > > -- Oliver Ruebenacker Founder at Relomics Consulting <http://www.relomics.com> Be always grateful, but never satisfied. |