scope-dev

[Scope-dev] Collaboration [0]

[Christian H. <chr...@tu...>]

Hi,

after some time for reflection and investigation, I forward you 5 mails
(read them or ignore them):

1st mail: Gilbert suggests a "united development platform" as new project
and offers to give more information about the success/ failures in JOS
as well as support for application programmers who want to build on JOS

2nd mail: My reply in which I offer to create a project/mailing list/website
(but also point out my lack of time for more work on integration!!)

3rd mail: Gilbert says he would like to help define what it takes to
build, not just a Java application that works, but a Java application
that works with other Java applications

4th mail: My mail to Debian and GNU asking for existing Java-Distribution
projects.
BTW: I didn't get any reply, just one meaningless message.
Probably there is no project of the kind I asked for.

5th mail: Gilbert thought about easing Java distribution.

==

It seems there is a necessity for something like a Java Distribution.
(Well, JDistro carries that name but rather is a desktop, right?)

If just Gilbert and I are interested in a collaboration of that kind,
it makes no sense to create a new project and put more effort here.
But if more of you (and further Java projects) had an interest, we should,
as a first step, at least create a simple web page and mailing list so
that I don't have to further bother uninterested parties with my
cross-postings.

All I need from you/your projects now is an answer: YES or NO.
Of course, it would be helpful if you could give more hints, such as
ideas for a name for the new project etc.

Thanks,
Christian

[Scope-dev] Collaboration [1]

[Christian H. <chr...@tu...>]

----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

Subject: Re: [jos-general] Re: [jdistro-devel] Where do we go ?
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 14:46:49 -0400
From: Gilbert Carl Herschberger II <gc...@mi...>
To: Christian Heller <chr...@tu...>

It is rare and precious to find someone capable of bringing people
together. Are you that person? I think so. Many of us think we have
different goals, and need to travel in different directions...

And yet, it seems that our goals are not so different after all. Because of
the JOS Project, our members have ended up experimenting with many
different aspects of Java technologies--beyond what makes an OS--to find
out what people might expect from Java technology.

Here is how it might be possible to unite these development projects into a
united development platform: form a brand new project on sourceforge.net
with an explicit goal to unite many other projects. Java technology is
wonderful. It especially shines in the area of integration. But somebody
has to actually do the work on putting the results of these projects
together into something people can use.

A new project should be focused on integration and feedback. We need to
explain to the specialists how they can make their project more compatible
with what other people are doing.

Politically and pragmatically, it is better to build a brand new project.
Anyone interested in integration can join. Those who simply want to develop
isolated applications that happen to be written in Java do not have to
join. It sounds like there is momentum here. Those of us who want to
discuss integration should join together in a mailing list that is focused
on integration. (You should not be required to post messages to multiple
mailing lists, right?)

I have followed the JOS Project from the beginning. I could contribute more
information about what we have attempted, both what has been a success and
what has been a failure. We can help enable Java programmers to build
applications that work together. How do we make all of it work together? If
we can answer that, we can all benefit.

What is the name of the new project? and its mailing list? How about
something that plays on where we come from? Java United Application Network
(JUAN). Or, Open Common API For Existance (OpenCAFE).

No, really. There is a common API for per-sistance, but no such support for
existance. Your Java program must exist within a Java-enabled environment
before it can do something useful. In my experience, the most difficult
part of Java technology has been the actual deployment of a finished
application. How many ways are there to deploy a Java class? Many. And
unfortunately, they have little in common. Why can't you create a Java
program that can run as a EJB, applet, application and servlet? Because the
EJB, applet, application and servlet APIs have little or nothing in common.

There are jars, wars, ears. But I would like a set of Java applications
that all deploy the same way. And no, WebStart is not it. Your API,
framework and class library should be deployed differently than a Java
application. I would like to put class libraries into a class library
archive and applications into an application archive. I would like to do
with my compiled code what I already do with compiled C/C++ code. I want
different deployment for shared libraries (.so and .dll) and executable
programs (.exe). More on that later.

Thanks,

[Scope-dev] Collaboration [3]

[Christian H. <chr...@tu...>]

----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

Subject: Re: [jos-general] Re: [jdistro-devel] Where do we go ?
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 18:46:59 -0400
From: Gilbert Carl Herschberger II <gc...@mi...>
To: Christian Heller <chr...@tu...>

At 11:29 PM 7/2/03 +0200, you wrote:
>At first, one question: Is there a reason you didn't send your email
>to the lists? I didn't find any confidential things. On the contrary,
>it contains good and important proposals!

I didn't sent my e-mail directly to the mailing lists because I thought I
might be asking a lot of you. I did not know how you would feel about that.
Now that we agree something must be done, should you post my message (and
yours) on the various mailing lists? I think you might first do a little
research on the Debian effort. Gather the facts before presenting it to
others. If another project is already trying to do this, I would like to
know more about it.

I would like to install a Java-oriented--optimized and
enhanced--distribution of GNU/Linux. That would be very useful to me, too.
Is that a goal for Debian?

Am I speaking of a distribution project? Hmm, maybe I am. My very first
goal for the JOS Project was to provide the JOS Technical Edition, a
distribution of JOS-related stuff. I made it easier to find stuff. Why? I
didn't want others to have as much difficulty as I did. Certainly, a
distribution project could distribute a collection of "friendly"
applications that are designed to work together. As a super-project, we
might work to "improve" or "upgrade" existing Java applications so that
everything can work together. We can improve the out-of-box experience.

Then again, maybe I'm not. As you may have heard, most of the JOS software
does not work together. Isn't that sad? There are lots of little
incompatibilities.

But of course, all /my/ stuff works together. ;)

When distributing the files that other people made, I could do very little
to convince them to change their product so that it worked with other
products. I am convinced that this might be where Java technology suffers
the most. It is so easy to write a Java application that cannot run
alongside other Java applications. But I should be able to run all Java
applications side by side without such incompatibilities. We have an
amazing class loader mechanism that few people are putting to good use. We
have an amazing namespace mechanism so that different applications don't
need to use the same namespace.

I would like to help define what it takes to build, not just a Java
application that works, but a Java application that works with other Java
applications. Could this be such an opportunity? Is this the right time?

This is vaguely familiar. It reminds me of the RedTea project on
sourceforge.net that set out to build a Java equivalent of RPM, the RedHat
Package Manager. I haven't heard from them in a while. It was "red" because
of RedHat. It was "tea" in response to Java (coffee). The idea was that,
with an equivalent of RPM, Java products could be distributed similar to
the way products are distributed on Linux. The community wasn't ready for
yet another RPM. It seems that it might be better to determine how Java
applications might be tested for "compatibility" and help authors
distribute their products using RPM. Maybe distribution is a part of it.

Let's say you wanted the latest version of every Java product on
sourceforge.net. How would you do it? Get a distributor. A distributor
involves people from many projects. They ask authors to build an RPM for
each product. They mirrors the RPM in a central location, hopefully taking
care only to introduce stable combinations of products, giving you one-stop
shopping. And hopefully, taking care of any licensing issues. (1) Is every
Java product available as an RPM? (2) Has anyone volunteered to be a
distributor?

Wow! I didn't realize how strongly I felt about this. As it should be,
RedHat is an expert in the distribution of Linux, not Java. Who is an
expert in the distribution of Java products? Is anyone?

Thanks,

RE : [Scope-dev] Collaboration [3]

[Nicolas G. <nic...@ga...>]

Your project reminds me of a product called "Out-of-the-Box" from EJB
Solutions (www.ejbsolutions.com). This is a distribution of Open Source
projects for Java and LAMP developpers. It's free but I think it's not
Open Source.

-- Nicolas Grilly
   Garden - Marketing pilot=E9 par l'information
   Tel/Fax +33 1 56 72 21 32 - Mobile +33 6 03 00 25 34 - Web
www.garden-paris.com



> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : sco...@li...=20
> [mailto:sco...@li...] De la part de=20
> Christian Heller
> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 11 juillet 2003 17:20
> =C0 : jos...@li...;=20
> jdi...@li...;=20
> sco...@li...; cyb...@li...
> Cc : jex...@li...;=20
> jed...@li...;=20
> jas...@li...;=20
> jbo...@li...;=20
> web...@li...
> Objet : [Scope-dev] Collaboration [3]
>=20
>=20
> ----------  Forwarded Message  ----------
>=20
> Subject: Re: [jos-general] Re: [jdistro-devel] Where do we go ?
> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 18:46:59 -0400
> From: Gilbert Carl Herschberger II <gc...@mi...>
> To: Christian Heller <chr...@tu...>
>=20
> At 11:29 PM 7/2/03 +0200, you wrote:
> >At first, one question: Is there a reason you didn't send=20
> your email to=20
> >the lists? I didn't find any confidential things. On the=20
> contrary, it=20
> >contains good and important proposals!
>=20
> I didn't sent my e-mail directly to the mailing lists because=20
> I thought I might be asking a lot of you. I did not know how=20
> you would feel about that. Now that we agree something must=20
> be done, should you post my message (and
> yours) on the various mailing lists? I think you might first=20
> do a little research on the Debian effort. Gather the facts=20
> before presenting it to others. If another project is already=20
> trying to do this, I would like to know more about it.
>=20
> I would like to install a Java-oriented--optimized and=20
> enhanced--distribution of GNU/Linux. That would be very=20
> useful to me, too. Is that a goal for Debian?
>=20
> Am I speaking of a distribution project? Hmm, maybe I am. My=20
> very first goal for the JOS Project was to provide the JOS=20
> Technical Edition, a distribution of JOS-related stuff. I=20
> made it easier to find stuff. Why? I didn't want others to=20
> have as much difficulty as I did. Certainly, a distribution=20
> project could distribute a collection of "friendly"=20
> applications that are designed to work together. As a=20
> super-project, we might work to "improve" or "upgrade"=20
> existing Java applications so that everything can work=20
> together. We can improve the out-of-box experience.
>=20
> Then again, maybe I'm not. As you may have heard, most of the=20
> JOS software does not work together. Isn't that sad? There=20
> are lots of little incompatibilities.
>=20
> But of course, all /my/ stuff works together. ;)
>=20
> When distributing the files that other people made, I could=20
> do very little to convince them to change their product so=20
> that it worked with other products. I am convinced that this=20
> might be where Java technology suffers the most. It is so=20
> easy to write a Java application that cannot run alongside=20
> other Java applications. But I should be able to run all Java=20
> applications side by side without such incompatibilities. We=20
> have an amazing class loader mechanism that few people are=20
> putting to good use. We have an amazing namespace mechanism=20
> so that different applications don't need to use the same namespace.
>=20
> I would like to help define what it takes to build, not just=20
> a Java application that works, but a Java application that=20
> works with other Java applications. Could this be such an=20
> opportunity? Is this the right time?
>=20
> This is vaguely familiar. It reminds me of the RedTea project=20
> on sourceforge.net that set out to build a Java equivalent of=20
> RPM, the RedHat Package Manager. I haven't heard from them in=20
> a while. It was "red" because of RedHat. It was "tea" in=20
> response to Java (coffee). The idea was that, with an=20
> equivalent of RPM, Java products could be distributed similar=20
> to the way products are distributed on Linux. The community=20
> wasn't ready for yet another RPM. It seems that it might be=20
> better to determine how Java applications might be tested for=20
> "compatibility" and help authors distribute their products=20
> using RPM. Maybe distribution is a part of it.
>=20
> Let's say you wanted the latest version of every Java product=20
> on sourceforge.net. How would you do it? Get a distributor. A=20
> distributor involves people from many projects. They ask=20
> authors to build an RPM for each product. They mirrors the=20
> RPM in a central location, hopefully taking care only to=20
> introduce stable combinations of products, giving you=20
> one-stop shopping. And hopefully, taking care of any=20
> licensing issues. (1) Is every Java product available as an=20
> RPM? (2) Has anyone volunteered to be a distributor?
>=20
> Wow! I didn't realize how strongly I felt about this. As it=20
> should be, RedHat is an expert in the distribution of Linux,=20
> not Java. Who is an expert in the distribution of Java=20
> products? Is anyone?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email sponsored by: Parasoft
> Error proof Web apps, automate testing & more.
> Download & eval WebKing and get a free book.=20
> www.parasoft.com/bulletproofapps1=20
> _______________________________________________
> Scope-dev mailing list
> Sco...@li...=20
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/s> cope-dev
>=20

[Scope-dev] Collaboration [2]

[Christian H. <chr...@tu...>]

----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

Subject: Re: [jos-general] Re: [jdistro-devel] Where do we go ?
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 23:29:53 +0200
From: Christian Heller <chr...@tu...>
To: Gilbert Carl Herschberger II <gc...@mi...>

> It is rare and precious to find someone capable of bringing people
> together. Are you that person? I think so. Many of us think we have
> different goals, and need to travel in different directions...

Thank you, I feel honoured :-)

At first, one question: Is there a reason you didn't send your email
to the lists? I didn't find any confidential things. On the contrary,
it contains good and important proposals!

Right. My honest statement:
1 I think that such an effort is needed.
2 I could offer to create that project, preferrably on Savannah.
3 I offer to create an easy website (similar to http://www.cybop.net).
4 To raise a mailing list.
5 For the actual work, that is integration of our projects, I don't have
the time right now. I am currently writing my dissertation (12 months),
already maintaining two Free Software projects (you know what that
means), have 6 students for diploma works, a "real-life" project etc.
6 Nevertheless, the super-project mailing list alone might be worth it.

The work "on putting the results of these projects together into something
people can use" sounds quite much like packaging for Debian. I could
ask for an interested developer in their lists. Most don't like Java
that much because it is not "free" but somebody might have an interest.

> A new project should be focused on integration and feedback. We need to
> explain to the specialists how they can make their project more compatible
> with what other people are doing.

This is exactly what the Debian people are doing!
I revise my statement from above and suggest to first ask in the Debian
project before creating our own. However, a mailing list may still be
useful.

> What is the name of the new project? and its mailing list? How about
> something that plays on where we come from? Java United Application Network
> (JUAN). Or, Open Common API For Existance (OpenCAFE).

Could it be something more general, without the name "Java", too?
It might eventually go a different way (you also use C++ right now and
I plan some XML-based language; others were talking of Jython).
Something around the term "System", because that is what we all are
trying to build? "UniSys"? But isn't that an existing company?
I guess most of you wouldn't like "CYBORG" = CyberneticOrganism :-)
(simply a system built after the principles of nature).

> There are jars, wars, ears. But I would like a set of Java applications
> that all deploy the same way. And no, WebStart is not it. Your API,
> framework and class library should be deployed differently than a Java
> application. I would like to put class libraries into a class library
> archive and applications into an application archive. I would like to do
> with my compiled code what I already do with compiled C/C++ code. I want
> different deployment for shared libraries (.so and .dll) and executable
> programs (.exe). More on that later.

I didn't think much about deployment yet. In GNU/Linux, applications spread
their information to various directories: /usr, /usr/lib, /etc, /home.
As everything, this has advantages and drawbacks. A single .jar with
all needed data inside is also not bad, it has clarity. But then using
shared information from other directories is difficult.

Another point is the possible XML-based programming language I think
about. Do you think it would be performant enough when being interpreted
as is? No need for compilation then. No need for packaging? Don't know.

Christian

[Scope-dev] Collaboration [4]

[Christian H. <chr...@tu...>]

----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

Subject: Java Distribution
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:30:41 +0200
From: Christian Heller <chr...@tu...>
To: deb...@li...
Cc: inf...@gn..., gc...@mi...

Hi,

we are a number of Java-based projects:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/jos/ (OS)
http://sourceforge.net/projects/jdistro/ (Desktop)
http://sourceforge.net/projects/scope/ (MVC Framework)
http://developer.berlios.de/projects/cybop/ (Component Framework)
http://sourceforge.net/projects/resmedicinae/ (Application)

and were lately discussing about how best to collaborate. Some of us
proposed something like a "Java-oriented, optimized and enhanced
distribution of GNU/Linux" project that:
- focusses on integration and feedback
- makes the Java projects more compatible
- distributes a collection of "friendly" applications that are designed to
work together
- works to "improve" or "upgrade" existing Java applications to run
side by side
- improves the out-of-box experience
- helps define what it takes to build, not just a Java application that
works, but a Java application that works with other Java applications

Now, we wonder if another project is already trying to do this?
If so, we would like to know more about it.
Is that a goal for Debian?

There used to be the http://sourceforge.net/projects/redtea/ project
that set out to build a Java equivalent of RPM (RedHat Package Manager).
It was "red" because of RedHat. It was "tea" in response to Java (coffee).
The idea was that, with an equivalent of RPM, Java products could be
distributed similar to the way products are distributed on Linux. The
community wasn't ready for yet another RPM. Is .DEB the solution?
It seems that it might be better to determine how Java applications
might be tested for "compatibility" and help authors distribute their
products.

Thanks,
Christian

[Scope-dev] Collaboration [5]

[Christian H. <chr...@tu...>]

----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

Subject: Re: Java Distribution
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 11:28:34 -0400
From: Gilbert Carl Herschberger II <gc...@mi...>
To: Christian Heller <chr...@tu...>

I have been wondering about making Java-based technology easier to
distribute. So, I reviewed "Building The Tomcat 4.0 Servlet/JSP Container"
from the Tomcat project:

http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-4.1-doc/BUILDING.txt

Think about the complexity! It makes my head hurt. Why can't I just get a
Java application to download a machine-readable version of these
instructions and do all of the grunt work for me? Java is capable of
downloading files, isn't it? A "binary" command could download a jar and
all of its dependencies. A "source" command could download source code and
all of its dependencies.

There are a half-dozen other Java-based projects that have exactly the same
problem. We could share a solution. The CjOS Project has a directory filled
with many jars. Others should not be required to download each of those
jars individually. Nor should they be required to upgrade each of those
jars individually.

And what about wars? Others should not be required to download and upgrade
each war file individually. The Erica tool from the CjOS Project has
already done this for package files. It could do this for jar, ear and war
files, too. We might work with the JDistro project and others to experiment
with Erica.

Thanks,