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Saxon XSLT and XQuery Processor

The Saxon XSLT and XQuery processor, developed by Saxonica

Brought to you by: mhkay

Re: [saxon] "doctyped XHTML" tranformation : optional attributes added

Re: [saxon] "doctyped XHTML" tranformation : optional attributes added

From: Matthieu Ricaud-Dussarget <matthieu.ricaud@ig...> - 2011-07-20 15:16:16

David, I post here your answer which was not on the list.

You are right about this article that treat XML with regexp instead of 
parsing it as XML.

Be sure my projects are all about XML : I work with "book" (printed ones 
and numerics ones).
But the article points out problems which I also have, espacially those 
ones :

* 1.3 Default attributes in DTD are added to the output
This is an extremely irritating problem when transforming e.g. XHTML to 
XHTML. We can make extra templates to prevent default attributes from 
being copied out, but it can be a lot of extra work and you must know 
the details of the DTDs.
=> I whish there were a parameter to say yes or no, add those extra 
attributes

* 1.7 Character entities are replaced :
This is most often what we want but sometimes it can be irritating. 
E.g.: XHTML web designers use &#160; (non-breaking space) between words 
in headlines to prevent line breaks in small browser windows. When 
&#160; is replaced by a non-breaking-space looking like a space, " "; 
you can't control if you have remembered to use non-breaking spaces just 
by looking at the source code.
=> it's a big problem to me which I'd like to solve with a simple parameter

At least I like to understand the reason of such restrictions, most of 
them have one actually !

Regards,

Matthieu.

Le 20/07/2011 16:53, David Carlisle a écrit :
> On 20/07/2011 15:37, Matthieu Ricaud-Dussarget wrote:
>> I have been reading this article about identity transformation :
>> http://www.xmlplease.com/identity-template
>> A big challenge !
>
> Note you almost certainly don't need to do that (unless you do need to 
> do it:-)
>
> that is showing how to read the xml file as text rather than xml and 
> gather information that an xml parser is defined to discard. it's 
> possible to do that but if you need to do it a lot it's probably an 
> indication that xml isn't right for the project. If an xml parser 
> isn't what you need for your input data that should be a hint that xml 
> isn't the format you need for your input either....
>
> David 

-- 
Matthieu Ricaud
IGS-CP
Service Livre numérique

Thread view

[saxon] "doctyped XHTML" tranformation : optional attributes added

From: Matthieu Ricaud-Dussarget <matthieu.ricaud@ig...> - 2011-07-20 13:38:34

Hi all,

Continuing on "DTD aware XSLT transformation with Catalog file", I'm 
wondering why is saxon adding some extra attributes in the output.
The xsl is an identity transformation.

input.xhtml
-------------------------------------------------------------
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" 
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">;
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">;
<head>
<title>XHTML</title>
</head>
<body>
<p><a href="http://www.google.fr">google</a></p>;
</body>
</html>

output.xhtml
------------------------------------------------------------
<!DOCTYPE html
   PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" 
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">;
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"; version="-//W3C//DTD XHTML 
1.1//EN">
<head profile="">
<title>XHTML</title>
</head>
<body xml:space="preserve">
<p xml:space="preserve">Ceci est un fichier de test XHTML avec doctype</p>
<p xml:space="preserve"><a href="http://www.google.fr"; 
xml:space="preserve" shape="rect">google</a></p>
</body>
</html>

head/@profile and a/@shap are optional attributes according to the DTD.
Why is saxon adding those attributes ?

Is there a way to prevent this ?

Thanks,

Matthieu.

-- 
Matthieu Ricaud
IGS-CP
Service Livre numérique

Re: [saxon] "doctyped XHTML" tranformation : optional attributes added

From: David Carlisle <davidc@na...> - 2011-07-20 13:57:54

On 20/07/2011 14:38, Matthieu Ricaud-Dussarget wrote:
> head/@profile and a/@shap are optional attributes according to the DTD.
> Why is saxon adding those attributes ?

That's the semantics specified by XML for a default value specified in a 
DTD, the XML parser _defaults_ the value, adding it so the application 
(saxon here)  always sees the value in the same way, whether it was 
defaulted by the DTD or added explicitly.

 > Is there a way to prevent this ?

having used a catalog to substitute a local dtd, edit that copy to not 
default the values, just leave the attribute as #IMPLIED without giving 
a default.

David

________________________________________________________________________
The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd is a company registered in England
and Wales with company number 1249803. The registered office is:
Wilkinson House, Jordan Hill Road, Oxford OX2 8DR, United Kingdom.

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________________________________________________________________________

Re: [saxon] "doctyped XHTML" tranformation : optional attributes added

From: Matthieu Ricaud-Dussarget <matthieu.ricaud@ig...> - 2011-07-20 14:37:47

> That's the semantics specified by XML for a default value specified in 
> a DTD, the XML parser _defaults_ the value, adding it so the 
> application (saxon here)  always sees the value in the same way, 
> whether it was defaulted by the DTD or added explicitly.
>
Ok, I did'nt know this was a spec. Thanks for the explanation.

> > Is there a way to prevent this ?
>
> having used a catalog to substitute a local dtd, edit that copy to not 
> default the values, just leave the attribute as #IMPLIED without 
> giving a default. 

Right, that's work, I will not do it but I understand better like this.

I have been reading this article about identity transformation :
http://www.xmlplease.com/identity-template
A big challenge !

Thank for your help David.

Matthieu




-- 
Matthieu Ricaud
IGS-CP
Service Livre numérique

Re: [saxon] "doctyped XHTML" tranformation : optional attributes added

From: Matthieu Ricaud-Dussarget <matthieu.ricaud@ig...> - 2011-07-20 15:16:16

David, I post here your answer which was not on the list.

You are right about this article that treat XML with regexp instead of 
parsing it as XML.

Be sure my projects are all about XML : I work with "book" (printed ones 
and numerics ones).
But the article points out problems which I also have, espacially those 
ones :

* 1.3 Default attributes in DTD are added to the output
This is an extremely irritating problem when transforming e.g. XHTML to 
XHTML. We can make extra templates to prevent default attributes from 
being copied out, but it can be a lot of extra work and you must know 
the details of the DTDs.
=> I whish there were a parameter to say yes or no, add those extra 
attributes

* 1.7 Character entities are replaced :
This is most often what we want but sometimes it can be irritating. 
E.g.: XHTML web designers use &#160; (non-breaking space) between words 
in headlines to prevent line breaks in small browser windows. When 
&#160; is replaced by a non-breaking-space looking like a space, " "; 
you can't control if you have remembered to use non-breaking spaces just 
by looking at the source code.
=> it's a big problem to me which I'd like to solve with a simple parameter

At least I like to understand the reason of such restrictions, most of 
them have one actually !

Regards,

Matthieu.

Le 20/07/2011 16:53, David Carlisle a écrit :
> On 20/07/2011 15:37, Matthieu Ricaud-Dussarget wrote:
>> I have been reading this article about identity transformation :
>> http://www.xmlplease.com/identity-template
>> A big challenge !
>
> Note you almost certainly don't need to do that (unless you do need to 
> do it:-)
>
> that is showing how to read the xml file as text rather than xml and 
> gather information that an xml parser is defined to discard. it's 
> possible to do that but if you need to do it a lot it's probably an 
> indication that xml isn't right for the project. If an xml parser 
> isn't what you need for your input data that should be a hint that xml 
> isn't the format you need for your input either....
>
> David 

-- 
Matthieu Ricaud
IGS-CP
Service Livre numérique

Re: [saxon] "doctyped XHTML" tranformation : optional attributes added

From: Michael Kay <mike@sa...> - 2011-07-20 15:53:59

> * 1.3 Default attributes in DTD are added to the output
> This is an extremely irritating problem when transforming e.g. XHTML to
> XHTML. We can make extra templates to prevent default attributes from
> being copied out, but it can be a lot of extra work and you must know
> the details of the DTDs.
> =>  I whish there were a parameter to say yes or no, add those extra
> attributes
There is. From the command line, it's -expand:off. This depends on the 
XML parser notifying which attribute values were added, so it doesn't 
work with all parsers.
> * 1.7 Character entities are replaced :
> This is most often what we want but sometimes it can be irritating.
> E.g.: XHTML web designers use&#160; (non-breaking space) between words
> in headlines to prevent line breaks in small browser windows. When
> &#160; is replaced by a non-breaking-space looking like a space, " ";
> you can't control if you have remembered to use non-breaking spaces just
> by looking at the source code.
> =>  it's a big problem to me which I'd like to solve with a simple parameter
You can force the use of character entities in the output for all 
non-ASCII characters by using xsl:output encoding="us-ascii".
> At least I like to understand the reason of such restrictions, most of
> them have one actually !
>
A better place to discuss issues in the XSLT spec is the xsl-list at 
mulberrytech.com. (Both of these are hardy perennials...)

Michael Kay
Saxonica

Re: [saxon] "doctyped XHTML" tranformation : optional attributes added

From: Matthieu Ricaud-Dussarget <matthieu.ricaud@ig...> - 2011-07-20 16:13:55

Le 20/07/2011 17:53, Michael Kay a écrit :
> There is. From the command line, it's -expand:off. This depends on the
> XML parser notifying which attribute values were added, so it doesn't
> work with all parsers.
It works! thanks a lot, that's exactly what I was looking for !
> You can force the use of character entities in the output for all
> non-ASCII characters by using xsl:output encoding="us-ascii".
I heard about that quite short ago ;-)

> A better place to discuss issues in the XSLT spec is the xsl-list at
> mulberrytech.com. (Both of these are hardy perennials...)

I know them, I'll move to it if I have some more questions.

Thanks for you help.

-- 
Matthieu Ricaud
IGS-CP
Service Livre numérique

Re: [saxon] "doctyped XHTML" tranformation : optional attributes added

From: David Carlisle <davidc@na...> - 2011-07-20 15:48:28

On 20/07/2011 16:16, Matthieu Ricaud-Dussarget wrote:
 > David, I post here your answer which was not on the list.

actually I went off list as it's general xml/xsl issues not about saxon 
so xml-dev or xsl-list would be better than using the saxon support space.

 >
 > You are right about this article that treat XML with regexp instead of
 > parsing it as XML.
 >
 > Be sure my projects are all about XML : I work with "book" (printed ones
 > and numerics ones).
 > But the article points out problems which I also have, espacially those
 > ones :
 >
 > * 1.3 Default attributes in DTD are added to the output
 > This is an extremely irritating problem when transforming e.g. XHTML to
 > XHTML. We can make extra templates to prevent default attributes from
 > being copied out, but it can be a lot of extra work and you must know
 > the details of the DTDs.
 > =>  I whish there were a parameter to say yes or no, add those extra
 > attributes

but actually for xhtml there are very few of those, so just stopping 
your default identity template copying shape attributes would get you a 
long way. Or you can use a simper dtd locally which doesn't default 
(that's what I do, personally, usually)

 >
 > * 1.7 Character entities are replaced :
 > This is most often what we want but sometimes it can be irritating.
 > E.g.: XHTML web designers use&#160; (non-breaking space) between words
 > in headlines to prevent line breaks in small browser windows. When
 > &#160; is replaced by a non-breaking-space looking like a space, " ";
 > you can't control if you have remembered to use non-breaking spaces just
 > by looking at the source code.
 > =>  it's a big problem to me which I'd like to solve with a simple 
parameter

that one's easy to solve just specify that you want the output encoding 
to be US-ASCII then every non ascii character will be output using a 
character reference rather than literal character data.

<xsl:output method="xhtml" omit-xml-declaration="yes" indent="no" 
encoding="US-ASCII" />

 >
 > At least I like to understand the reason of such restrictions, most of
 > them have one actually !
 >
 > Regards,
 >
 > Matthieu.
 >
David

________________________________________________________________________
The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd is a company registered in England
and Wales with company number 1249803. The registered office is:
Wilkinson House, Jordan Hill Road, Oxford OX2 8DR, United Kingdom.

This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The service is
powered by MessageLabs. 
________________________________________________________________________

Re: [saxon] "doctyped XHTML" tranformation : optional attributes added

From: Matthieu Ricaud-Dussarget <matthieu.ricaud@ig...> - 2011-07-20 16:00:22

Le 20/07/2011 17:26, David Carlisle a écrit :
>
> actually I went off list as it's general xml/xsl issues not about 
> saxon so xml-dev or xsl-list would be better than using the saxon 
> support space.
Oups, sorry I thought it was a mistake. You are right it's no more in 
the scope of saxon.

> but actually for xhtml there are very few of those, so just stopping 
> your default identity template copying shape attributes would get you 
> a long way. Or you can use a simper dtd locally which doesn't default 
> (that's what I do, personally, usually)
>
I was reluctant to change the "official" XHTML DTD but well, I think you 
convince me ! I work with XHTML1.1, hope there is not too much 
replacement to do...
>
> that one's easy to solve just specify that you want the output 
> encoding to be US-ASCII then every non ascii character will be output 
> using a character reference rather than literal character data.
>
> <xsl:output method="xhtml" omit-xml-declaration="yes" indent="no" 
> encoding="US-ASCII" />
>
Thanks for the tip. I tried it and every French special character is 
replaced by a reference, which make the text unreadable...
At best I would have like no character replacement during the 
transformation :  that means "let each character the same as the input".

But well with DTD aware transformation :
Hé&#160;! ==becomes=> Hé&nbsp;!
Which is correct for my need (one can see the non break space).

Just a last point :
H&#233;&#160;! also becomes Hé&nbsp;!
I would have expect both to be replace like this => H&eacute;&nbsp;!

I don't know if this is saxon's behaviour or xslt's one...
Sorry if being out of the list scope, if this is the case.

Regards,
Matthieu.










-- 
Matthieu Ricaud
IGS-CP
Service Livre numérique