## Re: [saxon] Kanji numbering - request for help

 Re: [saxon] Kanji numbering - request for help From: - 2008-09-08 03:46:22 ``` Hello, Let me talk about this issue as one of the Japanese users. In https://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=5197982, Scott mentioned two ways of writing numbers in the decimal system with Kanji characters. What is the essential difference between the two? ---- to use or not to use zeros, I think. I could pick up 4 code points standing for "zero". 0 U+0030 零 U+96F6 ０ U+FF10 〇 U+3007 The U+0030 is the usual Arabic zero. The U+96F6 is .... a noun, Let's do not bother about it too much as it is never used as a part of decimal digits. The U+FF10 will be, though I am not too sure, used for writing numbers horizontally from left to right together with other Kanji digits such as 一,二,三 (1,2,3). I would prefer U+3000 to U+FF10 when I typewrite horizontally. So I regard the U+FF10 griph rather useless The U+3007 is used for writing numbers vertically from top to bottom. This is the one we should look at now. Let me call the two ways Scott mentioned the "with-zero way" and the "without-zero way" for short. I think that both of them are syntactically valid. I remember in my school days (40 years ago) I learned the without-zero way to be authentic, and I am sure my children are taught the same today. On the otherhand, the with-zero way is well-accepted and frequently used these days in journalism, books, and any other area (except schools). I went to a bookstore in Tokyo trying to find an evidence. I could find "NEWS FROM NOWHERE" by William Morris had 2 translations into Japanese. One was published in 1968 with TOC(table of contents) in without-zero way (published by CHUO-KOHRON SHIN-SHA, translated by GOTOH SHIGERU and IIZUKA ICHIRO). Another was published in 2004 with TOC in with-zero way (published by IWANAMI-SHOTEN, translated by MATSUMURA TATSUO). I think both of them are appropriate. Also I noticed that the most of the books newly published have the TOC in the with-zero way. Conclusion: I think SAXON can stick to the current implementation (the with-zero way) because the with-zero way would be more pragmatic for computer-aided typewriting. MATSUASHI, kazuaki from JAPAN ```

 [saxon] Kanji numbering - request for help From: Michael Kay - 2008-08-26 20:36:42 ```Over on the Saxon forum (apologies to those of you who will have seen it there) a user has reported that Saxon is getting numbering using Kanji digits wrong - see https://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=5197982 I'm very reluctant to make changes in this kind of area without advice from a native user of the numbering scheme in question; I'm all too aware of the amount of out-of-date information that non-local "experts" have sometimes picked up from 19th century reference books. Any volunteers please? Michael Kay http://www.saxonica.com/ ```
 Re: [saxon] Kanji numbering - request for help From: - 2008-08-27 07:29:34 ``` Yes, I will look at this in a few days. MATSUHASHI,kazuaki from Japn "Michael Kay" "'Mailing list for the SAXON XSLT and 送信者: XQuery processor'" saxon-help- bounces@... cc ts.sourcefo rge.net 件名 [saxon] Kanji numbering - request for help 2008/08/27 05:36 Mailing list for the SAXON XSLT and XQuery processor へ 返信してく ださい Over on the Saxon forum (apologies to those of you who will have seen it there) a user has reported that Saxon is getting numbering using Kanji digits wrong - see https://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=5197982 I'm very reluctant to make changes in this kind of area without advice from a native user of the numbering scheme in question; I'm all too aware of the amount of out-of-date information that non-local "experts" have sometimes picked up from 19th century reference books. Any volunteers please? Michael Kay http://www.saxonica.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ _______________________________________________ saxon-help mailing list archived at http://saxon.markmail.org/ saxon-help@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/saxon-help ```
 Re: [saxon] Kanji numbering - request for help From: - 2008-09-08 03:46:22 ``` Hello, Let me talk about this issue as one of the Japanese users. In https://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=5197982, Scott mentioned two ways of writing numbers in the decimal system with Kanji characters. What is the essential difference between the two? ---- to use or not to use zeros, I think. I could pick up 4 code points standing for "zero". 0 U+0030 零 U+96F6 ０ U+FF10 〇 U+3007 The U+0030 is the usual Arabic zero. The U+96F6 is .... a noun, Let's do not bother about it too much as it is never used as a part of decimal digits. The U+FF10 will be, though I am not too sure, used for writing numbers horizontally from left to right together with other Kanji digits such as 一,二,三 (1,2,3). I would prefer U+3000 to U+FF10 when I typewrite horizontally. So I regard the U+FF10 griph rather useless The U+3007 is used for writing numbers vertically from top to bottom. This is the one we should look at now. Let me call the two ways Scott mentioned the "with-zero way" and the "without-zero way" for short. I think that both of them are syntactically valid. I remember in my school days (40 years ago) I learned the without-zero way to be authentic, and I am sure my children are taught the same today. On the otherhand, the with-zero way is well-accepted and frequently used these days in journalism, books, and any other area (except schools). I went to a bookstore in Tokyo trying to find an evidence. I could find "NEWS FROM NOWHERE" by William Morris had 2 translations into Japanese. One was published in 1968 with TOC(table of contents) in without-zero way (published by CHUO-KOHRON SHIN-SHA, translated by GOTOH SHIGERU and IIZUKA ICHIRO). Another was published in 2004 with TOC in with-zero way (published by IWANAMI-SHOTEN, translated by MATSUMURA TATSUO). I think both of them are appropriate. Also I noticed that the most of the books newly published have the TOC in the with-zero way. Conclusion: I think SAXON can stick to the current implementation (the with-zero way) because the with-zero way would be more pragmatic for computer-aided typewriting. MATSUASHI, kazuaki from JAPAN ```
 Re: [saxon] Kanji numbering - request for help From: Michael Kay - 2008-09-08 08:22:24 ```Many thanks for this information and for the time you spent in researching it. I am reminded of an occasion when my German grandfather met the German teacher at my English school. Afterwards he commented that it was 30 years since he had heard anyone speaking German so correctly. I have often seen this effect with software localization - there is a tendency for software to do what the textbooks say is correct (like the infamous collation of "ch" and "ll" in Spanish"), long after actual usage by typical publishers has moved on. Perhaps this is a case where, if there is a demand, we should do it in the "without-zero" way if the "traditional" modifier is present. Best regards, Michael Kay > -----Original Message----- > From: saxon-help-bounces@... > [mailto:saxon-help-bounces@...] On Behalf > Of matsuhashi@... > Sent: 08 September 2008 04:46 > To: Mailing list for the SAXON XSLT and XQuery processor > Subject: Re: [saxon] Kanji numbering - request for help > > > > Hello, > > Let me talk about this issue as one of the Japanese users. In > https://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=5197982, > Scott mentioned two ways of writing numbers in the decimal > system with Kanji characters. > > What is the essential difference between the two? ---- to use > or not to use zeros, I think. I could pick up 4 code points > standing for "zero". > 0 U+0030 > 零 U+96F6 > ０ U+FF10 > 〇 U+3007 > > The U+0030 is the usual Arabic zero. > > The U+96F6 is .... a noun, Let's do not bother about it too > much as it is never used as a part of decimal digits. > > The U+FF10 will be, though I am not too sure, used for > writing numbers horizontally from left to right together with > other Kanji digits such as > 一,二,三 (1,2,3). I would prefer U+3000 to U+FF10 when I > typewrite horizontally. So I regard the U+FF10 griph rather useless > > The U+3007 is used for writing numbers vertically from top to > bottom. This is the one we should look at now. > > Let me call the two ways Scott mentioned the "with-zero way" > and the "without-zero way" for short. I think that both of > them are syntactically valid. I remember in my school days > (40 years ago) I learned the without-zero way to be > authentic, and I am sure my children are taught the same > today. On the otherhand, the with-zero way is well-accepted > and frequently used these days in journalism, books, and any > other area (except schools). > > I went to a bookstore in Tokyo trying to find an evidence. I > could find "NEWS FROM NOWHERE" by William Morris had 2 > translations into Japanese. One was published in 1968 with > TOC(table of contents) in without-zero way (published by > CHUO-KOHRON SHIN-SHA, translated by GOTOH SHIGERU and IIZUKA > ICHIRO). Another was published in 2004 with TOC in with-zero > way (published by IWANAMI-SHOTEN, translated by MATSUMURA > TATSUO). I think both of them are appropriate. Also I noticed > that the most of the books newly published have the TOC in > the with-zero way. > > Conclusion: I think SAXON can stick to the current > implementation (the with-zero way) because the with-zero way > would be more pragmatic for computer-aided typewriting. > > > MATSUASHI, kazuaki > from JAPAN > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move > Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based > applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes Grand prize > is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the > world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/ > _______________________________________________ > saxon-help mailing list archived at > http://saxon.markmail.org/ saxon-help@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/saxon-help ```