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From: Steven A. <st...@ar...> - 2009-03-10 17:57:15
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Has there been any discussion on how we might be able to use Ruby to program the iPhone? Since the iPhone is more resource-constrained than Mac OS X, perhaps what we need is a way to compile ruby files to .o files in exactly the same way that Objective-C does. I.e., a modification of Apple's gcc might be the underlying tool that we use to implement Ruby on the iPhone. Any other thoughts on easier approaches to solving this problem? steven |
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From: Eloy D. <elo...@gm...> - 2009-03-10 18:38:36
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You might be interested in the following project: http://github.com/takuma104/iphone-rubycocoa/tree/master I have no idea about its capabilities yet though. Eloy On 10 mrt 2009, at 18:57, Steven Arnold wrote: > Has there been any discussion on how we might be able to use Ruby to > program the iPhone? Since the iPhone is more resource-constrained > than Mac OS X, perhaps what we need is a way to compile ruby files > to .o files in exactly the same way that Objective-C does. I.e., a > modification of Apple's gcc might be the underlying tool that we use > to implement Ruby on the iPhone. > > Any other thoughts on easier approaches to solving this problem? > steven > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Rubycocoa-talk mailing list > Rub...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk |
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From: Neil S. <ne...@ha...> - 2009-03-10 19:20:39
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Steven Arnold wrote: > Has there been any discussion on how we might be able to use Ruby to > program the iPhone? Since the iPhone is more resource-constrained > than Mac OS X, perhaps what we need is a way to compile ruby files > to .o files in exactly the same way that Objective-C does. I.e., a > modification of Apple's gcc might be the underlying tool that we use > to implement Ruby on the iPhone. > > Any other thoughts on easier approaches to solving this problem? I'd look into MacRuby for that. http://www.macruby.org/ if you didn't see already. I would think that using the ObjC runtime, which already has to be there and loaded anyway, would make it lighter to use. -- Neil Stevens - ne...@ha... If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not looking close enough to see the black and white dots. |
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From: Timothy P. <ti...@ge...> - 2009-03-10 19:28:44
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This is actually against the Apple EULA of the SDK. Its not that its not technically possible, its just that its leagally not :-) Cheers, Tim On 10/03/2009 17:57, "Steven Arnold" <st...@ar...> wrote: > Has there been any discussion on how we might be able to use Ruby to > program the iPhone? Since the iPhone is more resource-constrained > than Mac OS X, perhaps what we need is a way to compile ruby files > to .o files in exactly the same way that Objective-C does. I.e., a > modification of Apple's gcc might be the underlying tool that we use > to implement Ruby on the iPhone. > > Any other thoughts on easier approaches to solving this problem? > steven > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Rubycocoa-talk mailing list > Rub...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk > |
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From: Neil S. <ne...@ha...> - 2009-03-10 19:42:25
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Timothy Perrett wrote: > This is actually against the Apple EULA of the SDK. Its not that its not > technically possible, its just that its leagally not :-) Depends on whether he's writing for the Apple side or the Jailbroken side of iPhone development, heh. -- Neil Stevens - ne...@ha... If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not looking close enough to see the black and white dots. |
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From: Steven A. <st...@ar...> - 2009-03-10 22:47:35
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On Mar 10, 2009, at 3:42 PM, Neil Stevens wrote: > Timothy Perrett wrote: >> This is actually against the Apple EULA of the SDK. Its not that >> its not >> technically possible, its just that its leagally not :-) > > Depends on whether he's writing for the Apple side or the Jailbroken > side of iPhone development, heh. Right, this is intended for strictly legitimate apps sold on the App Store, indistinguishable from any other app other than that the source code is Ruby rather than Objective C. First of all, I like Ruby way more than Objective C, and second, I want to use my preferred editor rather than XCode. steven |
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From: Timothy P. <ti...@ge...> - 2009-03-10 23:06:36
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Yes, whilst your right about the legitimate aspect - remember in legal terms there is no notion of illegitimate being in anyway "ok". lol. Whilst it's true that people will always find ways to hack this device - apple will no doubt find ever more legal bean counters to stop people doing so. If your just going to "play" with an app for personal usage, then I guess your at low risk - however anything much more than that I would consider it being fairly risky given the EULA and TOS. God luck, whatever your choice Tim Sent from my iPhone On 10 Mar 2009, at 22:47, Steven Arnold <st...@ar...> wrote: > > On Mar 10, 2009, at 3:42 PM, Neil Stevens wrote: > >> Timothy Perrett wrote: >>> This is actually against the Apple EULA of the SDK. Its not that >>> its not >>> technically possible, its just that its leagally not :-) >> >> Depends on whether he's writing for the Apple side or the Jailbroken >> side of iPhone development, heh. > > Right, this is intended for strictly legitimate apps sold on the App > Store, indistinguishable from any other app other than that the source > code is Ruby rather than Objective C. First of all, I like Ruby way > more than Objective C, and second, I want to use my preferred editor > rather than XCode. > > steven > > > --- > --- > --- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) > are > powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly > and > easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based > development > software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging. > Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com > _______________________________________________ > Rubycocoa-talk mailing list > Rub...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk > |
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From: Steven A. <st...@ar...> - 2009-03-11 00:12:58
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On Mar 10, 2009, at 7:06 PM, Timothy Perrett wrote: > Yes, whilst your right about the legitimate aspect - remember in legal > terms there is no notion of illegitimate being in anyway "ok". lol. > > Whilst it's true that people will always find ways to hack this device > - apple will no doubt find ever more legal bean counters to stop > people doing so. I read the Apple iPhone SDK EULA at http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iphone.pdf and I do not see anything in it that suggests that only Apple- provided tools may be used to create iPhone apps. In fact, I don't even see anything that says you may only distribute an iPhone app via the iTunes App Store. If I'm missing some language in the EULA, please correct me. My take: there is nothing in the EULA to prevent a tool that creates an iPhone app via Ruby. While such a tool could possibly be used for "illegitimate" purposes (e.g. an app for use on jailbroken devices), let's not forget that ALL so-called illegitimate apps that exist today were created using XCode and Objective-C. Allowing iPhone apps to be created using Ruby would not add any capability for illegitimate activity that does not already exist today. steven |
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From: Jason F. <ja...@th...> - 2009-03-11 01:18:08
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On Mar 10, 2009, at 7:12 PM, Steven Arnold wrote: > I read the Apple iPhone SDK EULA at http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iphone.pdf > and I do not see anything in it that suggests that only Apple- > provided tools may be used to create iPhone apps. In fact, I don't > even see anything that says you may only distribute an iPhone app via > the iTunes App Store. If I'm missing some language in the EULA, > please correct me. That document appears to be a user-level agreement; it seems to have nothing to do with the SDK. Also note that the license to which you agree when downloading the SDK is *much* different than the legal contract you must sign to become a registered developer (and thus able to submit apps to the store). The developer contract has some language that can be interpreted to mean you cannot use any code execution mechanism not explicitly supported by Apple (see below). > My take: there is nothing in the EULA to prevent a tool that creates > an iPhone app via Ruby. While such a tool could possibly be used for > "illegitimate" purposes (e.g. an app for use on jailbroken devices), > let's not forget that ALL so-called illegitimate apps that exist today > were created using XCode and Objective-C. Allowing iPhone apps to be > created using Ruby would not add any capability for illegitimate > activity that does not already exist today. I think you'll find the bigger problem is that no RubyCocoa.framework exists in the iPhone SDK. So you might be able to get an app to compile and even run using Ruby in the simulator, but you'll have a lot more work to do if you expect to run it on a device. You'd have to compile Ruby for ARM, along with RubyCocoa, and get those working first. Then you have the potential legal hurdle as I mentioned in the preceding note. Bottom line, it just isn't worth trying to write an iPhone app using Ruby at this time. You can use Ruby as a tool in your build processes, or to generate Obj-C code, or otherwise, but implementing your program in Ruby is just not a wise idea. Best of luck, Jason |
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From: Steven A. <st...@ar...> - 2009-03-11 03:22:03
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Disclaimer: IANAL, and for that reason this will be my last post on the legal side of this issue. My reading of the iPhone SDK agreement below is my opinion only. Reading the SDK agreement at http://developer.apple.com/iphone/download.action?path=/iphone/iphone_sdk_for_iphone_os_2.2.1__9m2621a__final/iphone_sdk_agt_ea0495.pdf , I can see how the language might be interpreted to mean that you can't distribute an app except through the App Store, although even that (section 3.3.3) seems to apply only if you "enable additional features or functionality" beyond that of a normal app, such as e.g. allowing use of another carrier. I see nothing at all prohibiting anyone from using tools other than XCode to write iPhone apps. The agreement is very clear that any attempt to break the DRM of Apple is not allowed, but that is not what a Ruby->iPhone compiler would be intended to do, any more than the Objective-C compiler which is part of gcc -- a GPL-based app -- intends to do that. On Mar 10, 2009, at 8:51 PM, Jason Foreman wrote: > I think you'll find the bigger problem is that no > RubyCocoa.framework exists in the iPhone SDK. So you might be able > to get an app to compile and even run using Ruby in the simulator, > but you'll have a lot more work to do if you expect to run it on a > device. You'd have to compile Ruby for ARM, along with RubyCocoa, > and get those working first. Then you have the potential legal > hurdle as I mentioned in the preceding note. > > Bottom line, it just isn't worth trying to write an iPhone app using > Ruby at this time. You can use Ruby as a tool in your build > processes, or to generate Obj-C code, or otherwise, but implementing > your program in Ruby is just not a wise idea. We agree it is not feasible now to write an iPhone app in Ruby. In order to do that, it does seem you'd need a parser and compiler that compiles to the ARM infrastructure. I started the thread because I was wondering if there was any easier way to do this. My current feeling is that no, there is not. Having said that, in a world where some people begin projects like WINE, which attempt a complete re-implementation of Win32, this does not seem like an insurmountable goal -- merely a difficult one. RubyCocoa itself is a daring idea which I'm sure took quite a bit of effort to implement. I wouldn't expect a Ruby-iPhone kit to be any easier. steven |
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From: Axel M. R. <rub...@ro...> - 2009-03-11 08:20:06
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At 23:21 -0400 10-03-2009, Steven Arnold wrote:
>Disclaimer: IANAL, and for that reason this will be my last post on
>the legal side of this issue. My reading of the iPhone SDK agreement
>below is my opinion only.
I think it is more this part that's bothering us:
3.3.2 <stuff deleted>. No interpreted code may be downloaded and used
in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by
Apple's Published APIs and built-in interpreter(s).
As ruby is neither built-in, nor supported in the API, you're on your own.
just my 0.02...
Axel
--
_________________________
Axel Roest
axelloroestello@{AIM/MSN} - Skype:axellofono - XOIP: 084-8749988
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From: Steven D. A. <st...@ar...> - 2009-03-11 08:44:37
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Yeah. I agree without Apple's permission, loading the Ruby runtime
into the iPhone would violate the EULA. I do think there is a chance
they could be talked into allowing this, but short of that, any
solution would have to generate and link .o files in the same way
Objective-C does. It would be a Ruby compiler down to the bare metal,
not a VM as the environment in which Ruby currently runs.
For all I know, Apple already has a bytecode-driven VM in the iPhone.
If that is true, then the compiler could just compile to that bytecode
and the problem is no different than the problems of, say, the Jruby
project. It's very similar with ARM, too, you just have to think of
ARM's commands as the bytecode to use. :-)
On Mar 11, 2009, at 3:20 AM, Axel M. Roest wrote:
> At 23:21 -0400 10-03-2009, Steven Arnold wrote:
>> Disclaimer: IANAL, and for that reason this will be my last post on
>> the legal side of this issue. My reading of the iPhone SDK agreement
>> below is my opinion only.
>
> I think it is more this part that's bothering us:
> 3.3.2 <stuff deleted>. No interpreted code may be downloaded and used
> in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by
> Apple's Published APIs and built-in interpreter(s).
>
> As ruby is neither built-in, nor supported in the API, you're on
> your own.
>
> just my 0.02...
>
> Axel
> --
> _________________________
> Axel Roest
> axelloroestello@{AIM/MSN} - Skype:axellofono - XOIP: 084-8749988
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM)
> are
> powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly
> and
> easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based
> development
> software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
> Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
> _______________________________________________
> Rubycocoa-talk mailing list
> Rub...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk
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From: Timothy P. <ti...@ge...> - 2009-03-11 09:51:03
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Whilst I don't want to discourage you (as you seem quite dead set on this),
I would certainly question the ROI in time and potential financial
implications of what your looking at doing... Lets review:
1. You want to create a bespoke ruby compiler for a closed platform which
you have no internal knowledge of or access to the internal OS.
2. You'd have to rebuild an entire ruby language parser - you point to
Jruby. Bear in mind that Jruby has scores of very talented programmers
contributing and its taken a good few years to get to this point where its
reasonably usable.
3. Your looking at doing this on your own.
4. Its highly possible that you will loose a lot of what makes ruby flexible
by having a code -> compile -> deploy workflow.
5. Id imagine there would be several difficulties (just as there are with
the ruby-cocoa bridge) of mapping duck typed ruby to statically typed obj-c
So, IMO, for the time you would have to sink into this (were talking years,
not months) would it not just be easier to bite the bullet and write obj-c.
Its not that difficult after all...
Just some thoughts.
Tim
PS: Based on Apple's strategy elsewhere with application development, id say
its *very* unlikely that the iPhone runs any kind of VM. Not to mention
performance / resource issues on a device that size.
On 11/03/2009 08:44, "Steven D. Arnold" <st...@ar...> wrote:
> Yeah. I agree without Apple's permission, loading the Ruby runtime
> into the iPhone would violate the EULA. I do think there is a chance
> they could be talked into allowing this, but short of that, any
> solution would have to generate and link .o files in the same way
> Objective-C does. It would be a Ruby compiler down to the bare metal,
> not a VM as the environment in which Ruby currently runs.
>
> For all I know, Apple already has a bytecode-driven VM in the iPhone.
> If that is true, then the compiler could just compile to that bytecode
> and the problem is no different than the problems of, say, the Jruby
> project. It's very similar with ARM, too, you just have to think of
> ARM's commands as the bytecode to use. :-)
>
> On Mar 11, 2009, at 3:20 AM, Axel M. Roest wrote:
>
>> At 23:21 -0400 10-03-2009, Steven Arnold wrote:
>>> Disclaimer: IANAL, and for that reason this will be my last post on
>>> the legal side of this issue. My reading of the iPhone SDK agreement
>>> below is my opinion only.
>>
>> I think it is more this part that's bothering us:
>> 3.3.2 <stuff deleted>. No interpreted code may be downloaded and used
>> in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by
>> Apple's Published APIs and built-in interpreter(s).
>>
>> As ruby is neither built-in, nor supported in the API, you're on
>> your own.
>>
>> just my 0.02...
>>
>> Axel
>> --
>> _________________________
>> Axel Roest
>> axelloroestello@{AIM/MSN} - Skype:axellofono - XOIP: 084-8749988
>>
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------->>
-
>> Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM)
>> are
>> powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly
>> and
>> easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based
>> development
>> software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
>> Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rubycocoa-talk mailing list
>> Rub...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are
> powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
> easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
> software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
> Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
> _______________________________________________
> Rubycocoa-talk mailing list
> Rub...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk
>
|
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From: Scott T. <ea...@ma...> - 2009-03-14 03:14:26
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> PS: Based on Apple's strategy elsewhere with application > development, id say > its *very* unlikely that the iPhone runs any kind of VM. Not to > mention > performance / resource issues on a device that size. Not a general VM, but WebKit on the iPhone runs JavaScript. Although, I guess, In the current implementation that is, more than likely, the old syntax tree driven JavaScript interpreter and not the bytecode based Nitro engine... yet. give it until Tuesday of next week. That doesn't mean, of course, that you would have any direct access to the bytecode VM, but still... the phone could be running a VM then. :-D Scott |
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