rubycocoa-talk — talking about RubyCocoa

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Jon B. <jo...@gm...>]

Last time I checked it was Intel only, still seems to be the case ...

[MacBook-Pro:~/Desktop]$ wget -q http://svn.joyent.com/opensource/ 
slingshot/osx/VM/bin/ruby
[MacBook-Pro:~/Desktop]$ file ruby
ruby: Mach-O executable i386

- Jon

On Jul 14, 2007, at 12:17 AM, jea...@gm... wrote:

>
> the source for slingshot is now available:
>   http://svn.joyent.com/opensource/slingshot/
>
> i wonder if this might help out at all?
>
> cheers,
> jean-pierre
>
>
> On 7/13/07, Eloy Duran <elo...@gm...> wrote:
> I have finally been able to build the whole ruby package as  
> universal binaries.
> I checked if gems (or any extconf based lib) directly build as
> universals as well, which is indeed the case:
>
> eloys-computer:/opt_bak/local/var/local-portfiles/ruby root# gem
> install libxml-ruby
> Building native extensions.  This could take a while...
> Successfully installed libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4
>
> eloys-computer:/opt_bak/local/var/local-portfiles/ruby root# file
> /opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/libxml- ruby-0.3.8.4/ext/xml/ 
> libxml_so.bundle
> /opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/ext/xml/ 
> libxml_so.bundle:
> Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures
> /opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4 /ext/xml/ 
> libxml_so.bundle
> (for architecture i386): Mach-O bundle i386
> /opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/ext/xml/ 
> libxml_so.bundle
> (for architecture ppc):  Mach-O bundle ppc
>
> Eloy
>
> On 7/13/07, Eloy Duran < elo...@gm...> wrote:
> > It really depends on the gem....
> > Like I said earlier Hpricot for instance builds as a universal  
> binary
> > without any problems.
> >
> > Getting ruby to play nice with universal is the first hurdle.
> > I have it finally compiling as a universal, the only last problem is
> > with the openssl lib.
> > Once that's done I'll have a look at if mkmf needs additional  
> patching
> > for C extensions to build as universal binaries.
> >
> > Eloy
> >
> > On 7/13/07, Tim Perrett <he...@ti...> wrote:
> > > I had a thought about this...
> > >
> > > I have been looking at the locomotive project, and the slingshot
> > > VM........ both of which has there own internal ruby environment.
> > > With locomotive you have to select either PPC or Intel bundles;
> > > slingshot on the other hand is only available for intel.
> > >
> > > Rather than trying to re-invent the wheel would it be fair to say
> > > that those who have gone before us couldn't make universal gem
> > > compilation work so thats why they have had to use platform  
> specific
> > > implementations?
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Tim
> > >
> > >  
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
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> >
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Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Tim P. <he...@ti...>]

Fantastic work Eloy!

So to clarify, what your saying is that when you compile gems which  
need ruby extensions and they are universal?

Being able to bundle a universal ruby bin inside an RC app would  
solve pretty much all the architecture problems in dealing with PPC/ 
Intel differences. Both locomotive and slingshot would be interested  
in that i expect!

I know when we were chatting you mentioned distribution through mac  
ports? How would one do it from source to get a universal bin?

Cheers

- Tim


On 13 Jul 2007, at 23:23, Eloy Duran wrote:

> I have finally been able to build the whole ruby package as  
> universal binaries.
> I checked if gems (or any extconf based lib) directly build as
> universals as well, which is indeed the case:

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[<jea...@gm...>]

the source for slingshot is now available:
  http://svn.joyent.com/opensource/slingshot/

i wonder if this might help out at all?

cheers,
jean-pierre


On 7/13/07, Eloy Duran <elo...@gm...> wrote:
>
> I have finally been able to build the whole ruby package as universal
> binaries.
> I checked if gems (or any extconf based lib) directly build as
> universals as well, which is indeed the case:
>
> eloys-computer:/opt_bak/local/var/local-portfiles/ruby root# gem
> install libxml-ruby
> Building native extensions.  This could take a while...
> Successfully installed libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4
>
> eloys-computer:/opt_bak/local/var/local-portfiles/ruby root# file
> /opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4
> /ext/xml/libxml_so.bundle
> /opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4
> /ext/xml/libxml_so.bundle:
> Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures
> /opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4
> /ext/xml/libxml_so.bundle
> (for architecture i386): Mach-O bundle i386
> /opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4
> /ext/xml/libxml_so.bundle
> (for architecture ppc):  Mach-O bundle ppc
>
> Eloy
>
> On 7/13/07, Eloy Duran <elo...@gm...> wrote:
> > It really depends on the gem....
> > Like I said earlier Hpricot for instance builds as a universal binary
> > without any problems.
> >
> > Getting ruby to play nice with universal is the first hurdle.
> > I have it finally compiling as a universal, the only last problem is
> > with the openssl lib.
> > Once that's done I'll have a look at if mkmf needs additional patching
> > for C extensions to build as universal binaries.
> >
> > Eloy
> >
> > On 7/13/07, Tim Perrett <he...@ti...> wrote:
> > > I had a thought about this...
> > >
> > > I have been looking at the locomotive project, and the slingshot
> > > VM........ both of which has there own internal ruby environment.
> > > With locomotive you have to select either PPC or Intel bundles;
> > > slingshot on the other hand is only available for intel.
> > >
> > > Rather than trying to re-invent the wheel would it be fair to say
> > > that those who have gone before us couldn't make universal gem
> > > compilation work so thats why they have had to use platform specific
> > > implementations?
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Tim
> > >
> > >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
> > > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
> > > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
> > > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rubycocoa-talk mailing list
> > > Rub...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk
> > >
> >
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
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Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] Rubycocoa-talk Digest, Vol 14, Issue 9

[Sal S. <sal...@gm...>]

has anyone been able to build a universal binary verison of ruby?

I need universal versions of some of the bundles in my rubycocoa app  
that get put in via standaloneify


On Jul 13, 2007, at 4:58 AM, rubycocoa-talk- 
re...@li... wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: packaging ruby within an RC app (Jon Baer)
>    2. Re: packaging ruby within an RC app (jea...@gm...)
>    3. Re: packaging ruby within an RC app (Jon Baer)
>    4. Re: packaging ruby within an RC app (Tim Perrett)
>    5. Re: packaging ruby within an RC app (Eloy Duran)
>    6. Re: packaging ruby within an RC app (Tim Perrett)
>    7. Re: packaging ruby within an RC app (Tim Perrett)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:26:18 -0400
> From: Jon Baer <jo...@gm...>
> Subject: Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app
> To: rub...@li...
> Message-ID: <720...@gm...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Yeah that is what those *.bundle items are when you looked @ PackRat
> app ...
>
> Inside of lib you would put ...
>
> ./gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/lib/xml/libxml_so.bundle
>
> And then require that bundle in rb_main.
>
> Im having a similar issue with Hpricot gem I want to use and not sure
> the bundling of native items will work properly if the ruby binary
> has not been updated.
>
> - Jon
>
> On Jul 11, 2007, at 3:54 PM, Tim Perrett wrote:
>
>> Further to this.... With another project a particular XML file I need
>> to parse doesn't play well with REXML, so I then tried libxml-ruby
>> and it works like a charm and is much faster. From what I can tell
>> this is down to unicode support.
>>
>> However, libxml-ruby gem requires that it compile some native
>> extensions and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas how this could
>> then be packaged with an RC app? Out of the box libxml-ruby need at
>> least a ruby version of 1.8.4 I believe which is obviously a problem
>> as the apple install is only 1.8.2?
>>
>> Any ideas would be most welcome!
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> -
>> ---
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
>> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
>> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
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>> Rubycocoa-talk mailing list
>> Rub...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:54:38 -0700
> From: jea...@gm...
> Subject: Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app
> To: rub...@li...
> Message-ID:
> 	<f3b...@ma...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On 7/11/07, Jon Baer <jo...@gm...> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah that is what those *.bundle items are when you looked @ PackRat
>> app ...
>>
>> Inside of lib you would put ...
>>
>> ./gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/lib/xml/libxml_so.bundle
>>
>> And then require that bundle in rb_main.
>>
>> Im having a similar issue with Hpricot gem I want to use and not sure
>> the bundling of native items will work properly if the ruby binary
>> has not been updated.
>
>
> could you build the native parts on the respective platforms then  
> lipo them
> together?
>
> cheers,
> jean-pierre
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 19:03:56 -0400
> From: Jon Baer <jo...@gm...>
> Subject: Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app
> To: rub...@li...
> Message-ID: <262...@gm...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Yeah thats the confusing part, so to bundle for PPC and Intel (UB)
> you need to modify the Makefile that comes w/ a gem to get to that
> part.  I think, so its pretty tricky for RC apps then since there
> might be a few scenarios you have to work out, does standalonify take
> any of these into consideration?  Im fortunately @ the point where Im
> not packaging an app yet but Im looking @ how others accomplish it.
>
> - Jon
>
> On Jul 11, 2007, at 5:54 PM, jea...@gm... wrote:
>
>> On 7/11/07, Jon Baer <jo...@gm...> wrote:
>> Yeah that is what those *.bundle items are when you looked @ PackRat
>> app ...
>>
>> Inside of lib you would put ...
>>
>> ./gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/lib/xml/libxml_so.bundle
>>
>> And then require that bundle in rb_main.
>>
>> Im having a similar issue with Hpricot gem I want to use and not sure
>> the bundling of native items will work properly if the ruby binary
>> has not been updated.
>>
>> could you build the native parts on the respective platforms then
>> lipo them together?
>>
>> cheers,
>> jean-pierre
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 09:07:15 +0100
> From: Tim Perrett <he...@ti...>
> Subject: Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app
> To: rub...@li...
> Message-ID: <016...@ti...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Ok sounds good - would I then just be able to do a normal require
> 'libxml' in my rb_main? Or would it be some OSX specific for loading
> a bundle?
>
> In terms of handling both PPC and Intel architecture, surely there
> must be a way of doing it? I would have thought there are some apps
> out there doing it as there are so many gems that use ruby C
> extensions and require compilation. Would one of the rc-dev team be
> able to tell us weather or not standalonafiy takes this into account?
>
> All the best
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> On 11 Jul 2007, at 22:26, Jon Baer wrote:
>
>> Yeah that is what those *.bundle items are when you looked @ PackRat
>> app ...
>>
>> Inside of lib you would put ...
>>
>> ./gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/lib/xml/libxml_so.bundle
>>
>> And then require that bundle in rb_main.
>>
>> Im having a similar issue with Hpricot gem I want to use and not sure
>> the bundling of native items will work properly if the ruby binary
>> has not been updated.
>>
>> - Jon
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 10:49:56 +0200
> From: "Eloy Duran" <elo...@gm...>
> Subject: Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app
> To: rub...@li...
> Message-ID:
> 	<f52...@ma...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I had a look at compiling hpricot as a universal bundle which works if
> I edit the Makefile created by extconf.rb.
>
> I had to add to both CFLAGS and the LDSHARED the following: -arch  
> ppc -arch i386
>
> What I'm wondering is how extconf works.... I thought it would pick up
> the correct flags from the configure settings of ruby itself, however
> running the extconf against the apple supplied universal ruby does not
> add these flags. So does someone with more knowledge of extconf know
> how we could patch this so any lib that builds with extconf
> automatically gets the correct flags?
>
> Cheers,
> Eloy
>
> On 7/12/07, Tim Perrett <he...@ti...> wrote:
>> Ok sounds good - would I then just be able to do a normal require
>> 'libxml' in my rb_main? Or would it be some OSX specific for loading
>> a bundle?
>>
>> In terms of handling both PPC and Intel architecture, surely there
>> must be a way of doing it? I would have thought there are some apps
>> out there doing it as there are so many gems that use ruby C
>> extensions and require compilation. Would one of the rc-dev team be
>> able to tell us weather or not standalonafiy takes this into account?
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11 Jul 2007, at 22:26, Jon Baer wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah that is what those *.bundle items are when you looked @ PackRat
>>> app ...
>>>
>>> Inside of lib you would put ...
>>>
>>> ./gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/lib/xml/libxml_so.bundle
>>>
>>> And then require that bundle in rb_main.
>>>
>>> Im having a similar issue with Hpricot gem I want to use and not  
>>> sure
>>> the bundling of native items will work properly if the ruby binary
>>> has not been updated.
>>>
>>> - Jon
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> ----
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
>> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
>> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rubycocoa-talk mailing list
>> Rub...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:02:20 +0100
> From: Tim Perrett <he...@ti...>
> Subject: Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app
> To: rub...@li...
> Message-ID: <3CE...@ti...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Ive just had a go with it and it works fine doing that with hpricot,
> but the I tried libxml-ruby and the make file it creates is a lot
> more complex than that of hpricot. It seems to check the architecture
> of ruby, to make sure its compiling the right one. These are the
> following lines in the make file:
>
> arch = i686-darwin8.7.1
> sitearch = i686-darwin8.7.1
>
> Which was generated by extconf.rb. I tried manually adding different
> architecture flags but it doesn't like it and complains with the
> following:
>
> libz.dylib cputype (7, architecture i386) does not match cputype (18)
> for specified -arch flag: ppc (file not loaded)
>
> I think the first bit relates to that its already cast itself as i686
> and knows its not a PPC so doesn't need to compile it (or cant
> compile it?)
>
> What are peoples thoughts?
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 12 Jul 2007, at 09:49, Eloy Duran wrote:
>
>> I had a look at compiling hpricot as a universal bundle which  
>> works if
>> I edit the Makefile created by extconf.rb.
>>
>> I had to add to both CFLAGS and the LDSHARED the following: -arch
>> ppc -arch i386
>>
>> What I'm wondering is how extconf works.... I thought it would  
>> pick up
>> the correct flags from the configure settings of ruby itself, however
>> running the extconf against the apple supplied universal ruby does  
>> not
>> add these flags. So does someone with more knowledge of extconf know
>> how we could patch this so any lib that builds with extconf
>> automatically gets the correct flags?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Eloy
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:55:52 +0100
> From: Tim Perrett <he...@ti...>
> Subject: Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app
> To: rub...@li...
> Message-ID: <02A...@ti...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> I had a thought about this...
>
> I have been looking at the locomotive project, and the slingshot
> VM........ both of which has there own internal ruby environment.
> With locomotive you have to select either PPC or Intel bundles;
> slingshot on the other hand is only available for intel.
>
> Rather than trying to re-invent the wheel would it be fair to say
> that those who have gone before us couldn't make universal gem
> compilation work so thats why they have had to use platform specific
> implementations?
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
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> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rubycocoa-talk mailing list
> Rub...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk
>
>
> End of Rubycocoa-talk Digest, Vol 14, Issue 9
> *********************************************

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Eloy D. <elo...@gm...>]

I have finally been able to build the whole ruby package as universal binaries.
I checked if gems (or any extconf based lib) directly build as
universals as well, which is indeed the case:

eloys-computer:/opt_bak/local/var/local-portfiles/ruby root# gem
install libxml-ruby
Building native extensions.  This could take a while...
Successfully installed libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4

eloys-computer:/opt_bak/local/var/local-portfiles/ruby root# file
/opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/ext/xml/libxml_so.bundle
/opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/ext/xml/libxml_so.bundle:
Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures
/opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/ext/xml/libxml_so.bundle
(for architecture i386): Mach-O bundle i386
/opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/ext/xml/libxml_so.bundle
(for architecture ppc):  Mach-O bundle ppc

Eloy

On 7/13/07, Eloy Duran <elo...@gm...> wrote:
> It really depends on the gem....
> Like I said earlier Hpricot for instance builds as a universal binary
> without any problems.
>
> Getting ruby to play nice with universal is the first hurdle.
> I have it finally compiling as a universal, the only last problem is
> with the openssl lib.
> Once that's done I'll have a look at if mkmf needs additional patching
> for C extensions to build as universal binaries.
>
> Eloy
>
> On 7/13/07, Tim Perrett <he...@ti...> wrote:
> > I had a thought about this...
> >
> > I have been looking at the locomotive project, and the slingshot
> > VM........ both of which has there own internal ruby environment.
> > With locomotive you have to select either PPC or Intel bundles;
> > slingshot on the other hand is only available for intel.
> >
> > Rather than trying to re-invent the wheel would it be fair to say
> > that those who have gone before us couldn't make universal gem
> > compilation work so thats why they have had to use platform specific
> > implementations?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
> > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
> > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
> > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rubycocoa-talk mailing list
> > Rub...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk
> >
>

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Eloy D. <elo...@gm...>]

It really depends on the gem....
Like I said earlier Hpricot for instance builds as a universal binary
without any problems.

Getting ruby to play nice with universal is the first hurdle.
I have it finally compiling as a universal, the only last problem is
with the openssl lib.
Once that's done I'll have a look at if mkmf needs additional patching
for C extensions to build as universal binaries.

Eloy

On 7/13/07, Tim Perrett <he...@ti...> wrote:
> I had a thought about this...
>
> I have been looking at the locomotive project, and the slingshot
> VM........ both of which has there own internal ruby environment.
> With locomotive you have to select either PPC or Intel bundles;
> slingshot on the other hand is only available for intel.
>
> Rather than trying to re-invent the wheel would it be fair to say
> that those who have gone before us couldn't make universal gem
> compilation work so thats why they have had to use platform specific
> implementations?
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
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Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Tim P. <he...@ti...>]

I had a thought about this...

I have been looking at the locomotive project, and the slingshot  
VM........ both of which has there own internal ruby environment.  
With locomotive you have to select either PPC or Intel bundles;  
slingshot on the other hand is only available for intel.

Rather than trying to re-invent the wheel would it be fair to say  
that those who have gone before us couldn't make universal gem  
compilation work so thats why they have had to use platform specific  
implementations?

Cheers

Tim

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Tim P. <he...@ti...>]

Ive just had a go with it and it works fine doing that with hpricot,  
but the I tried libxml-ruby and the make file it creates is a lot  
more complex than that of hpricot. It seems to check the architecture  
of ruby, to make sure its compiling the right one. These are the  
following lines in the make file:

arch = i686-darwin8.7.1
sitearch = i686-darwin8.7.1

Which was generated by extconf.rb. I tried manually adding different  
architecture flags but it doesn't like it and complains with the  
following:

libz.dylib cputype (7, architecture i386) does not match cputype (18)  
for specified -arch flag: ppc (file not loaded)

I think the first bit relates to that its already cast itself as i686  
and knows its not a PPC so doesn't need to compile it (or cant  
compile it?)

What are peoples thoughts?

Cheers

Tim


On 12 Jul 2007, at 09:49, Eloy Duran wrote:

> I had a look at compiling hpricot as a universal bundle which works if
> I edit the Makefile created by extconf.rb.
>
> I had to add to both CFLAGS and the LDSHARED the following: -arch  
> ppc -arch i386
>
> What I'm wondering is how extconf works.... I thought it would pick up
> the correct flags from the configure settings of ruby itself, however
> running the extconf against the apple supplied universal ruby does not
> add these flags. So does someone with more knowledge of extconf know
> how we could patch this so any lib that builds with extconf
> automatically gets the correct flags?
>
> Cheers,
> Eloy

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Eloy D. <elo...@gm...>]

I had a look at compiling hpricot as a universal bundle which works if
I edit the Makefile created by extconf.rb.

I had to add to both CFLAGS and the LDSHARED the following: -arch ppc -arch i386

What I'm wondering is how extconf works.... I thought it would pick up
the correct flags from the configure settings of ruby itself, however
running the extconf against the apple supplied universal ruby does not
add these flags. So does someone with more knowledge of extconf know
how we could patch this so any lib that builds with extconf
automatically gets the correct flags?

Cheers,
Eloy

On 7/12/07, Tim Perrett <he...@ti...> wrote:
> Ok sounds good - would I then just be able to do a normal require
> 'libxml' in my rb_main? Or would it be some OSX specific for loading
> a bundle?
>
> In terms of handling both PPC and Intel architecture, surely there
> must be a way of doing it? I would have thought there are some apps
> out there doing it as there are so many gems that use ruby C
> extensions and require compilation. Would one of the rc-dev team be
> able to tell us weather or not standalonafiy takes this into account?
>
> All the best
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> On 11 Jul 2007, at 22:26, Jon Baer wrote:
>
> > Yeah that is what those *.bundle items are when you looked @ PackRat
> > app ...
> >
> > Inside of lib you would put ...
> >
> > ./gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/lib/xml/libxml_so.bundle
> >
> > And then require that bundle in rb_main.
> >
> > Im having a similar issue with Hpricot gem I want to use and not sure
> > the bundling of native items will work properly if the ruby binary
> > has not been updated.
> >
> > - Jon
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Tim P. <he...@ti...>]

Ok sounds good - would I then just be able to do a normal require  
'libxml' in my rb_main? Or would it be some OSX specific for loading  
a bundle?

In terms of handling both PPC and Intel architecture, surely there  
must be a way of doing it? I would have thought there are some apps  
out there doing it as there are so many gems that use ruby C  
extensions and require compilation. Would one of the rc-dev team be  
able to tell us weather or not standalonafiy takes this into account?

All the best

Tim



On 11 Jul 2007, at 22:26, Jon Baer wrote:

> Yeah that is what those *.bundle items are when you looked @ PackRat
> app ...
>
> Inside of lib you would put ...
>
> ./gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/lib/xml/libxml_so.bundle
>
> And then require that bundle in rb_main.
>
> Im having a similar issue with Hpricot gem I want to use and not sure
> the bundling of native items will work properly if the ruby binary
> has not been updated.
>
> - Jon

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Jon B. <jo...@gm...>]

Yeah thats the confusing part, so to bundle for PPC and Intel (UB)  
you need to modify the Makefile that comes w/ a gem to get to that  
part.  I think, so its pretty tricky for RC apps then since there  
might be a few scenarios you have to work out, does standalonify take  
any of these into consideration?  Im fortunately @ the point where Im  
not packaging an app yet but Im looking @ how others accomplish it.

- Jon

On Jul 11, 2007, at 5:54 PM, jea...@gm... wrote:

> On 7/11/07, Jon Baer <jo...@gm...> wrote:
> Yeah that is what those *.bundle items are when you looked @ PackRat
> app ...
>
> Inside of lib you would put ...
>
> ./gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/lib/xml/libxml_so.bundle
>
> And then require that bundle in rb_main.
>
> Im having a similar issue with Hpricot gem I want to use and not sure
> the bundling of native items will work properly if the ruby binary
> has not been updated.
>
> could you build the native parts on the respective platforms then  
> lipo them together?
>
> cheers,
> jean-pierre

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[<jea...@gm...>]

On 7/11/07, Jon Baer <jo...@gm...> wrote:
>
> Yeah that is what those *.bundle items are when you looked @ PackRat
> app ...
>
> Inside of lib you would put ...
>
> ./gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/lib/xml/libxml_so.bundle
>
> And then require that bundle in rb_main.
>
> Im having a similar issue with Hpricot gem I want to use and not sure
> the bundling of native items will work properly if the ruby binary
> has not been updated.


could you build the native parts on the respective platforms then lipo them
together?

cheers,
jean-pierre

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Jon B. <jo...@gm...>]

Yeah that is what those *.bundle items are when you looked @ PackRat  
app ...

Inside of lib you would put ...

./gems/1.8/gems/libxml-ruby-0.3.8.4/lib/xml/libxml_so.bundle

And then require that bundle in rb_main.

Im having a similar issue with Hpricot gem I want to use and not sure  
the bundling of native items will work properly if the ruby binary  
has not been updated.

- Jon

On Jul 11, 2007, at 3:54 PM, Tim Perrett wrote:

> Further to this.... With another project a particular XML file I need
> to parse doesn't play well with REXML, so I then tried libxml-ruby
> and it works like a charm and is much faster. From what I can tell
> this is down to unicode support.
>
> However, libxml-ruby gem requires that it compile some native
> extensions and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas how this could
> then be packaged with an RC app? Out of the box libxml-ruby need at
> least a ruby version of 1.8.4 I believe which is obviously a problem
> as the apple install is only 1.8.2?
>
> Any ideas would be most welcome!
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Tim P. <he...@ti...>]

Further to this.... With another project a particular XML file I need  
to parse doesn't play well with REXML, so I then tried libxml-ruby  
and it works like a charm and is much faster. From what I can tell  
this is down to unicode support.

However, libxml-ruby gem requires that it compile some native  
extensions and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas how this could  
then be packaged with an RC app? Out of the box libxml-ruby need at  
least a ruby version of 1.8.4 I believe which is obviously a problem  
as the apple install is only 1.8.2?

Any ideas would be most welcome!

Cheers

Tim

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] Core-Data packages

[Laurent S. <lsa...@ap...>]

Thanks for the pointer Tim, I just left a comment :-)

Laurent

On Jul 11, 2007, at 4:35 PM, Tim Perrett wrote:

> Hey guys
>
> This was posted onto the main cocoa-dev mailing list last night....
> might prove useful? Just thought would post up the link here in case
> some people are only using this list.
>
> http://acaro.wordpress.com/2007/07/09/packages-and-core-data- 
> documents/
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
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> Rub...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk

[Rubycocoa-talk] Core-Data packages

[Tim P. <he...@ti...>]

Hey guys

This was posted onto the main cocoa-dev mailing list last night....  
might prove useful? Just thought would post up the link here in case  
some people are only using this list.

http://acaro.wordpress.com/2007/07/09/packages-and-core-data-documents/

Cheers

Tim

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] Active Resource

[Eloy D. <elo...@gm...>]

On second thought, it would be better for me to have a look at this
tomorrow morning.

Eloy

On 7/11/07, Eloy Duran <elo...@gm...> wrote:
> Hey Russ,
>
> I'll take a look at wich points still need to be done to get the
> basics to work.
> But I'm sure you'll run into un-implemented things while using it,
> because I'm building these libs as I go while working on applications
> that need it (which isn't the case at this very moment).
> So as long as you keep that in mind and don't mind to get your own
> hands dirty (on the ARes code) while working on your project, than I'd
> say it would be a viable option.
>
> Do you have time this afternoon, which for me is in about 4 hours?
> I'll probably be lurking in the #ruby-osx channel.
>
> Eloy
>
> On 7/10/07, Russ McBride <Ru...@ps...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > This is an official email of encouragement for the development of RC
> > ActiveResource (i.e., ActiveResource w/ bindings).  I've got a big project
> > I'm delaying on hopes of building a "Rails-Cocoa Client" app with it!
> > ActiveResource w/ bindings would be *very* cool.
> >
> > Thanks Laurent and Eloy (et al)!
> >
> > --Russ
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jul 3, 2007, at 9:51 AM, Jon Baer wrote:
> >
> > You can use ActiveResource gem now in your code but I think you are
> > referring to specific CoreData/ArrayController/Bindings
> > usage no?
> >
> > - Jon
> >
> > On Jul 3, 2007, at 10:20 AM, Tim Perrett wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hey All
> >
> > In Eloys screen cast about AR he mentioned that soon there would be
> > Active Resource support for consuming REST services out of rails and
> > I wondered when this might come about and how the implementation
> > might work?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
> > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
> > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
> > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rubycocoa-talk mailing list
> > Rub...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk
> >
> >
>

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] Active Resource

[Eloy D. <elo...@gm...>]

Hey Russ,

I'll take a look at wich points still need to be done to get the
basics to work.
But I'm sure you'll run into un-implemented things while using it,
because I'm building these libs as I go while working on applications
that need it (which isn't the case at this very moment).
So as long as you keep that in mind and don't mind to get your own
hands dirty (on the ARes code) while working on your project, than I'd
say it would be a viable option.

Do you have time this afternoon, which for me is in about 4 hours?
I'll probably be lurking in the #ruby-osx channel.

Eloy

On 7/10/07, Russ McBride <Ru...@ps...> wrote:
>
>
>
> This is an official email of encouragement for the development of RC
> ActiveResource (i.e., ActiveResource w/ bindings).  I've got a big project
> I'm delaying on hopes of building a "Rails-Cocoa Client" app with it!
> ActiveResource w/ bindings would be *very* cool.
>
> Thanks Laurent and Eloy (et al)!
>
> --Russ
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 3, 2007, at 9:51 AM, Jon Baer wrote:
>
> You can use ActiveResource gem now in your code but I think you are
> referring to specific CoreData/ArrayController/Bindings
> usage no?
>
> - Jon
>
> On Jul 3, 2007, at 10:20 AM, Tim Perrett wrote:
>
>
> Hey All
>
> In Eloys screen cast about AR he mentioned that soon there would be
> Active Resource support for consuming REST services out of rails and
> I wondered when this might come about and how the implementation
> might work?
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/
> _______________________________________________
> Rubycocoa-talk mailing list
> Rub...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk
>
>

[Rubycocoa-talk] New Threads with Ruby 1.8.2 and/or 1.8.6

[Benjamin J. <bhj...@gm...>]

Hey all,

Tried out the new patch on my installation of 1.8.6, but my app is
linked against 1.8.2 for ease of distribution.

When I take out my link to /usr/lib/libruby.dylib and replaced it with
the new patched library, my app goes straight to gdb on startup.

What am I doing wrong and what should I be doing? Thanks,

Ben

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] Active Resource

[Russ M. <Ru...@ps...>]

This is an official email of encouragement for the development of RC  
ActiveResource (i.e., ActiveResource w/ bindings).  I've got a big  
project I'm delaying on hopes of building a "Rails-Cocoa Client" app  
with it!  ActiveResource w/ bindings would be *very* cool.

Thanks Laurent and Eloy (et al)!

--Russ





On Jul 3, 2007, at 9:51 AM, Jon Baer wrote:

> You can use ActiveResource gem now in your code but I think you are
> referring to specific CoreData/ArrayController/Bindings usage no?
>
> - Jon
>
> On Jul 3, 2007, at 10:20 AM, Tim Perrett wrote:
>
>> Hey All
>>
>> In Eloys screen cast about AR he mentioned that soon there would be
>> Active Resource support for consuming REST services out of rails and
>> I wondered when this might come about and how the implementation
>> might work?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Eloy D. <elo...@gm...>]

> Not to worry Eloy, I am only interested in this for my own
> information

Pfew.... ;-)

> - I agree with you that just changing the load path would
> be the optiomal solution. The static lib just interests me thats all :)

 True, it's always a good thing to learn.

Good luck.
Eloy

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Jon B. <jo...@jo...>]

Nevermind found my answer ...

Ruby Weekly News: 08/26/2002
OSX 10.2 ships with Ruby
           Luc Heinrich let us know that MacOS X (10.2 aka Jaguar) ships
           with Ruby 1.6.7.

On Jul 10, 2007, at 10:07 AM, Jon Baer wrote:

> Just curious ... does any OS X < 10.4 ship w/ a Ruby binary?
>
> - Jon
>
> On Jul 10, 2007, at 9:55 AM, Eloy Duran wrote:
>
>> If all you need is REXML then going down this road isn't going to  
>> make
>> it easier for you. There's no need at all to bundle libruby etc  
>> unless
>> the version of REXML you want to use doesn't work with 1.8.2, which I
>> don't think...?
>>
>> Like Laurent said it's a pure ruby lib, so you can require it just
>> like any ruby source file. Depending on how REXML internally requires
>> files you might not even need to set the load path, although this
>> could be handy in general.
>> So maybe this might work: require "#{path_to_bundle_resources}/lib/ 
>> REXML"
>>
>> Eloy
>>
>> On 7/10/07, Tim Perrett <he...@ti...> wrote:
>>> Ok thats interesting - however in his 'lib' dir he has  nkf.bundle,
>>> stringio.bundle, strscan.bundle  - which I dont think you are  
>>> talking
>>> about. There is no such directoy as ./Resources/lib so you must
>>> mean ../lib?
>>>
>>> Looking at the rb_main, those other bits have been added by
>>> standalonify - looking in standalonify.rb in the src, you can see
>>> exactly the same as what is in PackRat. I understand what you are
>>> getting at however, and it makes sense :)
>>>
>>> I am still iterated as to how Slingshot have it working, as that
>>> seems like it would be a very elegant solution? There code base is
>>> much more tidy than that of locomotive. What does the static.a  
>>> thing do?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10 Jul 2007, at 14:19, Jon Baer wrote:
>>>
>>>> You know what is a good app to check out ...
>>>>
>>>> http://infinitenil.com/packrat/
>>>>
>>>> Download it and jump into /Applications/PackRat.app/Contents/
>>>> Resources and take a look @ how his "lib" and rb_main.rb are laid
>>>> out.  I found it be pretty helpful, although still not sure if it
>>>> was all generated by standalonify + if this is the "standard" way
>>>> to do it.
>>>>
>>>> In a nutshell (just remember to load REXML first):
>>>> COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR = File.dirname(__FILE__)
>>>> $LOAD_PATH.reject! { |d| d.index(File.dirname
>>>> (COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR))!=0 }
>>>> $LOAD_PATH << File.join(COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR,"ThirdParty")
>>>> $LOAD_PATH << File.join(File.dirname 
>>>> (COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR),"lib")
>>>> $LOADED_FEATURES << "rubycocoa.bundle"
>>>> ENV['GEM_HOME'] = ENV['GEM_PATH'] = File.join
>>>> (COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR,"RubyGems")
>>>>
>>>> HTH,
>>>>
>>>> - Jon
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>> -----
>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
>>> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
>>> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
>>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Rubycocoa-talk mailing list
>>> Rub...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk
>>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> ----
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
>> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
>> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Rubycocoa-talk mailing list
>> Rub...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk
>

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Jon B. <jo...@gm...>]

Just curious ... does any OS X < 10.4 ship w/ a Ruby binary?

- Jon

On Jul 10, 2007, at 9:55 AM, Eloy Duran wrote:

> If all you need is REXML then going down this road isn't going to make
> it easier for you. There's no need at all to bundle libruby etc unless
> the version of REXML you want to use doesn't work with 1.8.2, which I
> don't think...?
>
> Like Laurent said it's a pure ruby lib, so you can require it just
> like any ruby source file. Depending on how REXML internally requires
> files you might not even need to set the load path, although this
> could be handy in general.
> So maybe this might work: require "#{path_to_bundle_resources}/lib/ 
> REXML"
>
> Eloy
>
> On 7/10/07, Tim Perrett <he...@ti...> wrote:
>> Ok thats interesting - however in his 'lib' dir he has  nkf.bundle,
>> stringio.bundle, strscan.bundle  - which I dont think you are talking
>> about. There is no such directoy as ./Resources/lib so you must
>> mean ../lib?
>>
>> Looking at the rb_main, those other bits have been added by
>> standalonify - looking in standalonify.rb in the src, you can see
>> exactly the same as what is in PackRat. I understand what you are
>> getting at however, and it makes sense :)
>>
>> I am still iterated as to how Slingshot have it working, as that
>> seems like it would be a very elegant solution? There code base is
>> much more tidy than that of locomotive. What does the static.a  
>> thing do?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 Jul 2007, at 14:19, Jon Baer wrote:
>>
>>> You know what is a good app to check out ...
>>>
>>> http://infinitenil.com/packrat/
>>>
>>> Download it and jump into /Applications/PackRat.app/Contents/
>>> Resources and take a look @ how his "lib" and rb_main.rb are laid
>>> out.  I found it be pretty helpful, although still not sure if it
>>> was all generated by standalonify + if this is the "standard" way
>>> to do it.
>>>
>>> In a nutshell (just remember to load REXML first):
>>> COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR = File.dirname(__FILE__)
>>> $LOAD_PATH.reject! { |d| d.index(File.dirname
>>> (COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR))!=0 }
>>> $LOAD_PATH << File.join(COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR,"ThirdParty")
>>> $LOAD_PATH << File.join(File.dirname(COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR),"lib")
>>> $LOADED_FEATURES << "rubycocoa.bundle"
>>> ENV['GEM_HOME'] = ENV['GEM_PATH'] = File.join
>>> (COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR,"RubyGems")
>>>
>>> HTH,
>>>
>>> - Jon
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> ----
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express
>> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
>> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now.
>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rubycocoa-talk mailing list
>> Rub...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
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> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rubycocoa-talk

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Tim P. <he...@ti...>]

Not to worry Eloy, I am only interested in this for my own  
information - I agree with you that just changing the load path would  
be the optiomal solution. The static lib just interests me thats all :)

Cheers for the info Jon / Eloy / Laurent - i'll try changing the load  
path and see where we get too

Thanks

Tim

On 10 Jul 2007, at 14:55, Eloy Duran wrote:

> If all you need is REXML then going down this road isn't going to make
> it easier for you. There's no need at all to bundle libruby etc unless
> the version of REXML you want to use doesn't work with 1.8.2, which I
> don't think...?

Re: [Rubycocoa-talk] packaging ruby within an RC app

[Eloy D. <elo...@gm...>]

If all you need is REXML then going down this road isn't going to make
it easier for you. There's no need at all to bundle libruby etc unless
the version of REXML you want to use doesn't work with 1.8.2, which I
don't think...?

Like Laurent said it's a pure ruby lib, so you can require it just
like any ruby source file. Depending on how REXML internally requires
files you might not even need to set the load path, although this
could be handy in general.
So maybe this might work: require "#{path_to_bundle_resources}/lib/REXML"

Eloy

On 7/10/07, Tim Perrett <he...@ti...> wrote:
> Ok thats interesting - however in his 'lib' dir he has  nkf.bundle,
> stringio.bundle, strscan.bundle  - which I dont think you are talking
> about. There is no such directoy as ./Resources/lib so you must
> mean ../lib?
>
> Looking at the rb_main, those other bits have been added by
> standalonify - looking in standalonify.rb in the src, you can see
> exactly the same as what is in PackRat. I understand what you are
> getting at however, and it makes sense :)
>
> I am still iterated as to how Slingshot have it working, as that
> seems like it would be a very elegant solution? There code base is
> much more tidy than that of locomotive. What does the static.a thing do?
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> On 10 Jul 2007, at 14:19, Jon Baer wrote:
>
> > You know what is a good app to check out ...
> >
> > http://infinitenil.com/packrat/
> >
> > Download it and jump into /Applications/PackRat.app/Contents/
> > Resources and take a look @ how his "lib" and rb_main.rb are laid
> > out.  I found it be pretty helpful, although still not sure if it
> > was all generated by standalonify + if this is the "standard" way
> > to do it.
> >
> > In a nutshell (just remember to load REXML first):
> > COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR = File.dirname(__FILE__)
> > $LOAD_PATH.reject! { |d| d.index(File.dirname
> > (COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR))!=0 }
> > $LOAD_PATH << File.join(COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR,"ThirdParty")
> > $LOAD_PATH << File.join(File.dirname(COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR),"lib")
> > $LOADED_FEATURES << "rubycocoa.bundle"
> > ENV['GEM_HOME'] = ENV['GEM_PATH'] = File.join
> > (COCOA_APP_RESOURCES_DIR,"RubyGems")
> >
> > HTH,
> >
> > - Jon
>
>
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