refdb-users

[Refdb-users] call numbers

[Matt P. <mat...@ut...>]

Hi,

I'd like to include local library call numbers in my bibliographical
databases.  Is there a semi-stnadard place for me to put such numbers?
(really it seems to me there should probably be a sep. tablei n the
database,  call_number, with fields maybe:
-----------
ref_id
library_system
library_branch
call_number
------------
but maybe such call numbers are really not the point of a
bibliographical system like this.  anyway, just a thought)

alles beste,
matt

Re: [Refdb-users] call numbers

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 11:51 AM, Matt Price wrote:

> I'd like to include local library call numbers in my bibliographical
> databases.

Are call numbers local?  I was assuming they were standardized, but am 
not sure that's right.  Rob?

> Is there a semi-stnadard place for me to put such numbers?
> (really it seems to me there should probably be a sep. tablei n the
> database,  call_number, with fields maybe:
> -----------
> ref_id
> library_system
> library_branch
> call_number
> ------------
> but maybe such call numbers are really not the point of a
> bibliographical system like this.  anyway, just a thought)

I don't have a strong opinion myself, other than that:

1)  When you start wanting to store branches and stuff, you're getting 
beyond the function of something like refdb.

2)  I don't like hard-coding data like so.  IIRC, MODS has a 
"classifier" element on which you can attach an attribute that 
indicates it's a call number.  Likewise with the "identifier" element.

Bruce

Re: [Refdb-users] call numbers

[Markus H. <mar...@mh...>]

Bruce D'Arcus writes:
 > 2)  I don't like hard-coding data like so.  IIRC, MODS has a 
 > "classifier" element on which you can attach an attribute that 
 > indicates it's a call number.  Likewise with the "identifier" element.

What would be wrong with using a dedicated element for dealing with
call numbers? I probably understand you all wrong, but the idea of
using general-purpose elements decorated with custom attributes
doesn't appeal to me. To me, this always feels like a workaround for
an improperly designed DTD or Schema. I like it standardized and
simple.

regards,
Markus

-- 
Markus Hoenicka
mar...@ca...
(Spam-protected email: replace the quadrupeds with "mhoenicka")
http://www.mhoenicka.de

Re: [Refdb-users] call numbers

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 3:39 PM, Markus Hoenicka wrote:

>> 2)  I don't like hard-coding data like so.  IIRC, MODS has a
>> "classifier" element on which you can attach an attribute that
>> indicates it's a call number.  Likewise with the "identifier" element.
>
> What would be wrong with using a dedicated element for dealing with
> call numbers? I probably understand you all wrong, but the idea of
> using general-purpose elements decorated with custom attributes
> doesn't appeal to me. To me, this always feels like a workaround for
> an improperly designed DTD or Schema. I like it standardized and
> simple.

I understand your point, but OTOH, standardization means inflexibility. 
  What if your library uses a classification scheme different than that 
of call numbers?

Bruce

Re: [Refdb-users] call numbers

[rob c. <ro...@st...>]

> I understand your point, but OTOH, standardization means inflexibility. 
>   What if your library uses a classification scheme different than that 
> of call numbers?

just got word from a couple of catalogers, and the answer is...

....it depends.

newer books are more likely to have been cataloged by the library of
congress, and you have a pretty good chance that call numbers will be
consistent across libraries...

but if that call number conflicts with an existing one, a check digit
will be used...

retro-cataloging is an entirely different story, and is usually done
locally, so the call numbers can't be counted on at all....

essentially, its not a good idea to assume that call numbers at one
institution will be the same at others.

Re: [Refdb-users] call numbers

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 4:02 PM, rob caSSon wrote:

> newer books are more likely to have been cataloged by the library of
> congress, and you have a pretty good chance that call numbers will be
> consistent across libraries...

"Newer" as in the stuff published in the past 100 years?  50 years?  20?

Bruce

Re: [Refdb-users] call numbers

[rob c. <ro...@st...>]

> > newer books are more likely to have been cataloged by the library of
> > congress, and you have a pretty good chance that call numbers will be
> > consistent across libraries...
> 
> "Newer" as in the stuff published in the past 100 years?  50 years?  20?

my take was...

    "don't rely on call numbers"

rc

Re: [Refdb-users] call numbers

[Matt P. <mat...@ut...>]

On Thu, Feb 05, 2004 at 09:55:57PM -0500, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: 
>  
> On Feb 5, 2004, at 4:02 PM, rob caSSon wrote: 
>  
> >newer books are more likely to have been cataloged by the library
of 
> >congress, and you have a pretty good chance that call numbers will
be 
> >consistent across libraries... 
>  
> "Newer" as in the stuff published in the past 100 years?  50 years?
20? 
>  
so, for instance, (don't have a cite on this at the moment) books
about 15 years old 
often have as many as 4 separate call numbers in the University of 
Toronto Library system alone. (One branch still uses the Dewey system;

in the other cases the last couple of digits often ary from branch to 
branch, and in addition the library adds a final tag to the end of the

call number indicating the branch.)  Many libraries (e.g., the
Staatsbibliotehk in 
Berlin, the Cambridge Univeristy Library, and the Bibliotheque 
Nationale, if I remember correctly, though it's been a while since I 
used them) don't use the LC system at all.   
 
So it can be a fairly complicated problem.   
 
matt 

Re: [Refdb-users] call numbers

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 3:39 PM, Markus Hoenicka wrote:

> What would be wrong with using a dedicated element for dealing with
> call numbers? I probably understand you all wrong, but the idea of
> using general-purpose elements decorated with custom attributes
> doesn't appeal to me. To me, this always feels like a workaround for
> an improperly designed DTD or Schema. I like it standardized and
> simple.

To go back to this, I don't much care if you have:

<classifier>
    <callNumber>S39.34556</callNumber>
</classifier>

...vs.

<classifier type="call">S39.34556</classifier>

They're semantically the same.  What I don't like is a free-standing 
element and database definition.

Bruce

Re: [Refdb-users] call numbers

[rob c. <ro...@st...>]

> > I'd like to include local library call numbers in my bibliographical
> > databases.
> 
> Are call numbers local?  I was assuming they were standardized, but am 
> not sure that's right.  Rob?

IANAC (i am not a cataloger), but they are standardized for the most
part....if you have to do original cataloging on an item (ie, not using
OCLC or some other MARC clearinghouse), i think you could come up with
different call numbers...i might be wrong on this tho, and will ask
someone with more expertise...

rc

[Refdb-users] call numbers

[Markus H. <mar...@mh...>]

Matt Price writes:
 > Hi,
 > 
 > I'd like to include local library call numbers in my bibliographical
 > databases.  Is there a semi-stnadard place for me to put such numbers?
 > (really it seems to me there should probably be a sep. tablei n the
 > database,  call_number, with fields maybe:
 > -----------
 > ref_id
 > library_system
 > library_branch
 > call_number
 > ------------
 > but maybe such call numbers are really not the point of a
 > bibliographical system like this.  anyway, just a thought)
 > 

This would not be hard to implement. The question is whether this is
within the scope of a reference management and bibliography tool. Is
it of general interest to include this feature?

regards,
Markus

-- 
Markus Hoenicka
mar...@ca...
(Spam-protected email: replace the quadrupeds with "mhoenicka")
http://www.mhoenicka.de

Re: [Refdb-users] call numbers

[Bruce D'A. <bd...@fa...>]

Don't know if this is useful or not, but here's how the new project 
LibDB handles this stuff. The project is starting as a movie db (hence 
the "DVD Shelf" and such), but is being designed to become much more 
extensive over time.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
--

CREATE TABLE libdb_locations ( id CHAR(20) NOT NULL, item_id CHAR(20) 
NOT NULL, location_type_id CHAR(20) NOT NULL ) TYPE=MyISAM;
INSERT INTO libdb_help VALUES ( "libdb_locations", "id",                
  "en", "A unique 20 character alphanumeric ID." );
INSERT INTO libdb_help VALUES ( "libdb_locations", "item_id",           
  "en", "The unique 20 character identifier of the item." );
INSERT INTO libdb_help VALUES ( "libdb_locations", "location_type_id",  
  "en", "The unique identifier that describes this location; see 
locations_types." );

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
--

CREATE TABLE libdb_locations_types ( id CHAR(20) NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY, 
name VARCHAR(100) NOT NULL, description TINYTEXT ) TYPE=MyISAM;
INSERT INTO libdb_help VALUES ( "libdb_locations_types", "id",          
"en", "A unique 20 character alphanumeric ID." );
INSERT INTO libdb_help VALUES ( "libdb_locations_types", "name",        
"en", "A brief, but recognizable, name for this location \(e.g., DVD 
Shelf 1, 2nd. Floor, Box 13, etc.\). ");
INSERT INTO libdb_help VALUES ( "libdb_locations_types", "description", 
"en", "A verbose explanation about this type of location \(e.g., 
specific directions, etc.\)." );
INSERT INTO libdb_locations_types VALUES ( "wIINYBlgzIEe4RukLR6G", "DVD 
Shelf 1", "All DVDs on this shelf are organized alphabetically, and are 
spine up." );
INSERT INTO libdb_locations_types VALUES ( "tx8D0PodmXdY0IjGx5PI", "VHS 
Shelf 1", "All VHS tapes on this shelf are organized alphabetically, 
save for oversized items, and are spine up." );

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
--

CREATE TABLE libdb_identifiers ( id CHAR(20) NOT NULL, referer_table 
VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL, referer_id CHAR(20) NOT NULL, identifier_type_id 
CHAR(20) NOT NULL, identifier TINYTEXT ) TYPE=MyISAM;
INSERT INTO libdb_help VALUES ( "libdb_identifiers", "id",              
    "en", "A unique 20 character alphanumeric ID." );
INSERT INTO libdb_help VALUES ( "libdb_identifiers", "referer_table",   
    "en", "The name of the table doing the referring." );
INSERT INTO libdb_help VALUES ( "libdb_identifiers", "referer_id",      
    "en", "The unique 20 character identifier of the referring table." 
);
INSERT INTO libdb_help VALUES ( "libdb_identifiers", 
"identifier_type_id", "en", "The unique identifier that describes this 
identifier; see identifiers_types." );
INSERT INTO libdb_help VALUES ( "libdb_identifiers", "identifier",      
    "en", "The identifier itself, either numbers, a word or phrase, or a 
combination of both." );

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
--

CREATE TABLE libdb_identifiers_types ( id CHAR(20) NOT NULL PRIMARY 
KEY, name VARCHAR(100) NOT NULL, description TINYTEXT NOT NULL ) 
TYPE=MyISAM;
INSERT INTO libdb_help VALUES ( "libdb_identifiers_types", "id",        
   "en", "A unique 20 character alphanumeric ID." );
INSERT INTO libdb_help VALUES ( "libdb_identifiers_types", "name",      
   "en", "A brief, but recognizable, name for this relationship \(e.g., 
Amazon ASIN, IMDb, etc.\). ");
INSERT INTO libdb_help VALUES ( "libdb_identifiers_types", 
"description", "en", "A verbose explanation about this type of 
identifier." );
INSERT INTO libdb_identifiers_types VALUES ( "gpREVQortpEnex1Zvr50", 
"Artisan Home Entertainment Cat. No.", "The Artisan Home Entertainment 
Catalog Number is displayed in the UPC box of their DVD purchases." );
INSERT INTO libdb_identifiers_types VALUES ( "CVxByT1K0a2lcfMVi0j4", 
"ASIN", "ASIN stands for Amazon Standard Identification Number. Almost 
every product on our site has its own ASIN -- a unique code we use to 
identify it. For books, the ASIN is the same as the ISBN number, but 
for all other products a new ASIN is created when the item is uploaded 
to our catalogue." );
INSERT INTO libdb_identifiers_types VALUES ( "1H7tVsmrA1mbrxQWTKfA", 
"DOI",  "DOIs are names \(characters and/or digits\) assigned to 
objects of intellectual property \(physical, digital or abstract\) such 
as electronic journal articles, images, learning objects, ebooks, 
images, any kind of content. They are used to provide current 
information, including where they \(or information about them\) can be 
found on the Internet. Information about a digital object may change 
over time, including where to find it, but its DOI will not change." );
INSERT INTO libdb_identifiers_types VALUES ( "LsDwzmSpSTXf5poXzSIh", 
"Fingerprint", "A fingerprint is an identifier constructed by combining 
groups of characters transcribed from specified pages of a printed 
item.  The technique is used primarily to signal differences between 
individual copies of early printed books." );
INSERT INTO libdb_identifiers_types VALUES ( "lJT0NNFWvPNUHPFU35PA", 
"IMDb", "The Internet Movie Database uses a nine-digit string to 
identify its resources; the first two characters determine whether it's 
a movie title or person's name." );
INSERT INTO libdb_identifiers_types VALUES ( "s7dzo7xsxeAN4WD9Jh1y", 
"ISSN", "The ISSN \(International Standard Serial Number\) is an 
eight-digit number which identifies periodical publications as such, 
including electronic serials. More than one million ISSN numbers have 
so far been assigned." );
INSERT INTO libdb_identifiers_types VALUES ( "xhC5cUEseR208u4jkKGV", 
"ISBN", "The ISBN is a unique machine-readable identification number, 
which marks any book unmistakably. For 30 years the ISBN has 
revolutionized the international book-trade. 159 countries and 
territories are officially ISBN members." );
INSERT INTO libdb_identifiers_types VALUES ( "crKg5OznuFZ1A6U6kS28", 
"LCCN", "The Library of Congress began to print catalog cards in 1898 
and began to distribute them in 1901. The Library of Congress Card 
Number was the number used to identify and control catalog cards." );
INSERT INTO libdb_identifiers_types VALUES ( "ks8iH6UoVugsgc9btI9c", 
"UPC Type A", "The basic UPC code, referred to as Type A, is composed 
of twelve digits. These twelve digits are broken up into four groups: 
Number System Character, Manufacturer's Code, Product Code, and Check 
Digit." );
INSERT INTO libdb_identifiers_types VALUES ( "ZhBU2tsUYphad23MTl9a", 
"UPC Type E", "All Type-E UPC codes are eight digits long, the first 
being the Number System Character and the last being the check digit. 
The number system character is ALWAYS ZERO. The check digit is 
calculated from the digits in the Type-A UPC." );

Re: [Refdb-users] call numbers

[Matt P. <mat...@ut...>]

On Thu, Feb 05, 2004 at 09:33:10PM +0100, Markus Hoenicka wrote:
> Matt Price writes:
>  > Hi,
>  > 
>  > I'd like to include local library call numbers in my bibliographical
>  > databases.  Is there a semi-stnadard place for me to put such numbers?
>  > (really it seems to me there should probably be a sep. tablei n the
>  > database,  call_number, with fields maybe:
>  > ref_id
>  > library_system
>  > library_branch
>  > call_number
>  > but maybe such call numbers are really not the point of a
>  > bibliographical system like this.  anyway, just a thought)
>  > 
> 
> This would not be hard to implement. The question is whether this is
> within the scope of a reference management and bibliography tool. Is
> it of general interest to include this feature?
> 

I would love to see this implemented, but I'm not sure that I'm really
a typical refdb user.  Maybe I should outline my situation and also
the reasons why I'd like to have this feature; then maybe you and
others can judge how extensive demand is likely to be.  

I'm a historian; I use OpenOffice for writing papers and run GNU/Linux
exclusively.  This means that there is currently no really good
solution for citation management for me at the moment.  (Bruce, I
seem to remember you're involved with OOo-biblio, so you cna correct
me if I'm wrong).  So, I've more or less decided I can learn to live
without it for the time being.  On the other hand, I do need a way t o
keep track of bibliographic references; but if that was my main
interest, I'd probably use pyblio or jabref or sixpack or something.

I'm mainly interested in RefDB as a teaching tool.  I want to implement
collective bibliographies in my courses, which I would expect students
to add to over the years.  This would mean that some of the work
students do would persist from year to year, rather than just vanish.

For a project like this, call numbers are really handy.  The
bibliography will mostly be used by students as a way to start
research on term papers -- so that means thy'll likely be going
straight to the library to look the book up; having a call number on
hand is a way to cut one step out of the research process; and since
the computers at the library have long waiting lines, cutting out
a step is a substantial bonus.  

I should say that having the call number is a pretty big advantage for
me, too.  I find I often want to refer to books I've read before, and
I prefer to know where to find it if possible.  I think a lot of other
people in the humanities have the same relation to sources -- we tend
to return to them periodically, which means a trip to the library,
which means having the call number on hand is... handy.  

Anyway, I don't really know how typical I am.  But maybe y'all can
decide!  alles beste,
matt

Re: [Refdb-users] call numbers

[Markus H. <mar...@mh...>]

Matt Price writes:
 > For a project like this, call numbers are really handy.  The
 > bibliography will mostly be used by students as a way to start
 > research on term papers -- so that means thy'll likely be going
 > straight to the library to look the book up; having a call number on
 > hand is a way to cut one step out of the research process; and since
 > the computers at the library have long waiting lines, cutting out
 > a step is a substantial bonus.  
 > 

This sounds like the system is not used to manage *local* copies
anyway, so you'd be free to abuse the AV field for this purpose. And
it also sounds like the call number (or whatever system applies)
should be student-readable rather than machine-readable, so it
wouldn't hurt to use a free text string describing the library,
branch, and call number.

regards,
Markus

-- 
Markus Hoenicka
mar...@ca...
(Spam-protected email: replace the quadrupeds with "mhoenicka")
http://www.mhoenicka.de