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From: Rajesh B A <ba_...@re...> - 2001-10-12 12:25:26
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Yep me too =0D=0A=0D=0AOn Fri, 12 Oct 2001 Nedko Arnaoudov wrote :=0D=0A> = =0D=0A> I also vote for giving the copyright to FSF.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Jakov a= f Wallby writes:=0D=0A> > On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 06:53:43PM -0500, Rick = =0D=0A> Parrish wrote:=0D=0A> > > Jason Filby wrote:=0D=0A> > > =0D=0A> = > > >At the moment there is no legal foundation to =0D=0A> represent the=0D= =0A> > > >developers. That means that MS would go after =0D=0A> individual= developers=0D=0A> > > >(not a good thing). We should look at forming =0D= =0A> such an entity for=0D=0A> > > >protection. Still, I doubt MS will sta= rt caring =0D=0A> until we start making=0D=0A> > > >a dent in their market= share... which is some way =0D=0A> away.=0D=0A> > > >=0D=0A> > > >- Jaso= n=0D=0A> > > >=0D=0A> > > Form a corporation which would then be the =0D= =0A> copyright holder for code?=0D=0A> > > =0D=0A> > > hmm...=0D=0A> > = =0D=0A> > Dangerous. Microsoft has enough money too keep =0D=0A> another c= ompany=0D=0A> > busy in court for years.=0D=0A> > I'd suggest giving copy= right away to FSF while there =0D=0A> still are=0D=0A> > not to many devel= opers. If FSF falls, nothing else =0D=0A> will stand.=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > = Jakob=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0D=0A> > =3D To remove yours= elf from this mailing list, go to =3D=0D=0A> > =3D http://www.reactos.com/= home/mailing.html =3D=0D=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> =0D=0A> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=0D=0A> =3D To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to =3D=0D= =0A> =3D http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html =3D=0D=0A> =3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =0D=0A> =0D=0A =0A ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Jakov af W. <ja...@vm...> - 2001-10-12 12:58:33
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But of course it's up to the current copyright holders. :-) I'm just a fan of this ReactOS thing. On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 12:23:09PM -0000, Rajesh B A wrote: > > Yep me too > > On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 Nedko Arnaoudov wrote : > > > > I also vote for giving the copyright to FSF. > > ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Eric <em...@po...> - 2001-10-12 13:57:10
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I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be one but I simply fail to see how M$ have any legal standing. That's like Ford suing Chrysler for copying the automobile. Is it not? After all, M$ literally copied the Window concept from Xerox and MS-DOS was a derivative of CP/M which they purchased and copied. -----Original Message----- From: Jakov af Wallby [mailto:ja...@vm...] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 8:58 AM To: ros...@re... Subject: [ros-kernel] Re: Legal... But of course it's up to the current copyright holders. :-) I'm just a fan of this ReactOS thing. On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 12:23:09PM -0000, Rajesh B A wrote: > > Yep me too > > On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 Nedko Arnaoudov wrote : > > > > I also vote for giving the copyright to FSF. > > ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Jakov af W. <ja...@vm...> - 2001-10-12 14:08:32
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No, they have no legal standing. The difference is both Ford and Chrysler have loads of money. On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 09:52:39AM -0400, Eric wrote: > I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be one but I simply fail to see how M$ > have any legal standing. That's like Ford suing Chrysler for copying the > automobile. Is it not? > > After all, M$ literally copied the Window concept from Xerox and MS-DOS was > a derivative of CP/M which they purchased and copied. > ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Eric <em...@po...> - 2001-10-12 14:26:31
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Good point but I still fail to see the connection. Maybe this isn't the place to talk about it but, I'll add to your statement and ask, Who would M$ sue? Do they really have the deep pockets and TIME to go after thousands of developers? What about those developers not on US soil who are not bound by US copyright laws? -----Original Message----- From: Jakov af Wallby [mailto:ja...@vm...] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 10:04 AM To: ros...@re... Subject: [ros-kernel] Re: RE: Re: Legal... No, they have no legal standing. The difference is both Ford and Chrysler have loads of money. On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 09:52:39AM -0400, Eric wrote: > I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be one but I simply fail to see how M$ > have any legal standing. That's like Ford suing Chrysler for copying the > automobile. Is it not? > > After all, M$ literally copied the Window concept from Xerox and MS-DOS was > a derivative of CP/M which they purchased and copied. > ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Rick P. <rfm...@sw...> - 2001-10-12 16:32:09
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Eric wrote: >Good point but I still fail to see the connection. Maybe this isn't the >place to talk about it but, I'll add to your statement and ask, Who would M$ >sue? Do they really have the deep pockets and TIME to go after thousands of >developers? What about those developers not on US soil who are not bound by >US copyright laws? > Free Dimitry! In other words, don't just worry about civil suits. Companies like M$ are lobbying for new laws even worse than the DMCA that could criminalize seemingly innocent open source efforts because it harms some company's business model. Anybody remember Phil Zimmerman? -rick ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Eric <em...@po...> - 2001-10-12 17:14:29
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Oh, give me a break! Isn't M$ the same company who argued, in self defense, that what they were doing was "innovation?" (Putting IE in the OS). M$ didn't invent the browser concept! M$ was also rumored to have used BSD's open source TCP/IP or parts of it in the new XP product to give it raw sockets support. I mean c'mon. The byte 'A' typed in Detroit is the same 'A' typed in Redmond, how are you to tell the difference? Its almost like we are talking about copyrighting and idea and saying that well since this idea influenced new ideas we own the new ideas as well? This is called innovation according to M$. Question: How are KDE and GNOME tackling this situation? Both KDE and GNOME are GUI/Windowed desktops each of which have Win95 skins!!!!! There is no doubt in my mind that the new Win98ME and XP virtual desktop concept came from the X-Windows world. After all, X-Windows had virtual desktops for years and Windows is just now getting it? Thus it could be argued that ROS ideas came from X-Windows with SUPPORT for Win32 in the form of cloning ideas not code. This reminds me of a case where Harley Davidson tried to copyright the sound of their bikes. I never knew what happen (did it go to court? If so, what was the outcome?) As if to say the sound was exactly the same on every bike produced and that it encourage awesome innovation to the point they needed to protect it saying it was from their custom engine designs bla bla bla. Its like saying Honda built their bike engines based on the sound that Harley's made? As John Stossel would say, Give me a break. Eric -----Original Message----- From: Rick Parrish [mailto:rfm...@sw...] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 12:28 PM To: ros...@re... Subject: [ros-kernel] Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Legal... Eric wrote: >Good point but I still fail to see the connection. Maybe this isn't the >place to talk about it but, I'll add to your statement and ask, Who would M$ >sue? Do they really have the deep pockets and TIME to go after thousands of >developers? What about those developers not on US soil who are not bound by >US copyright laws? > Free Dimitry! In other words, don't just worry about civil suits. Companies like M$ are lobbying for new laws even worse than the DMCA that could criminalize seemingly innocent open source efforts because it harms some company's business model. Anybody remember Phil Zimmerman? -rick ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Rick P. <rfm...@sw...> - 2001-10-12 19:36:27
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Eric wrote: >Oh, give me a break! > Okay, fifteen minutes, then back to work! >Isn't M$ the same company who argued, in self defense, >that what they were doing was "innovation?" (Putting IE in the OS). M$ >didn't invent the browser concept! M$ was also rumored to have used BSD's >open source TCP/IP or parts of it in the new XP product to give it raw >sockets support. > These are arguements for an anti-trust case. They would be useful as part of your defense if Microsoft sued you. However, I re-state my assertion: being right is not going to protect you from the expense of mounting a legal defense. The rest of your message starts to digress into reasons why it might be wrong for Microsoft to sue. That is not the point. *cue music* "What are you going to do when they come for you?" I'm not familiar with your financial sitiuation but I think most folks would rather avoid such a legal confrontation. A little discretion goes a long way. I am not saying everyone should hang up their keyboards and go home. Some prudent up-front steps can and should be taken to control the exposure of individual contributors. Regards, Rick PS. I misspelled Dmitri's name ... I think it's Dmitri Sklyarov. http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/08/02/2151216&mode=thread ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Andrew W. <an...@ds...> - 2001-10-12 20:11:33
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This is way off topic, but.. No, that was trademark, and I think they dropped the application. In that case they had a point though, every other major bike maker was coming out with a big V-twin engined cycle to try and take some of the market from Harley. That is what trademark is all about, protecting a business image and brand. However, I don't think anyone is going to argue that Harley was pushing the edge of the envelope trying to protect their marketshare. But trademark is very different than copyright. For trademark infringment the general rule is, is it a unique business "mark" and are consumers likely to be confused if that "mark" starts showing up on a competitor's stuff. For copyright, its was someone's "original" work (as in new to this world) "copied". As I understand it, the stuff in that work that is not new they generally don't have a huge claim to, as it is "old" or is considered a generally used technique. As ReactOS is not an exact copy of NT I think MS is going to have some problems, much like AT&T/USL (the owners of original Unix) did when the BSD4.4 code was released. --Andrew (another list lurker) > This reminds me of a case where Harley Davidson tried to copyright the sound > of their bikes. I never knew what happen (did it go to court? If so, what > was the outcome?) As if to say the sound was exactly the same on every bike > produced and that it encourage awesome innovation to the point they needed > to protect it saying it was from their custom engine designs bla bla bla. > Its like saying Honda built their bike engines based on the sound that > Harley's made? As John Stossel would say, Give me a break. ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Mark W. <ma...@np...> - 2001-10-12 14:28:59
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Concurrence. Generally sueing people is not about being /right/ it's about having sufficient cashe$ to drag the thing through the courts until the others give up, run out of money, or settle it some other way. You can't fight a big corporation on these grounds. The real problem MS have is that they can't really fight open source software on these terms. Who are you going to sue? The developers? OK, problems here are: (1) Developers may not be in the US - sueing will therefore take place in multiple countries. Of course its feasible, but they don't hold as much weight outside their home. (2) Stopping one developer doesn't get rid of the code, or stop others working on it. It has spread around the NET, and as fast as you shut one site down another will spring up (cf Warez sites - has anyone been successful in stopping illegal distribution of software this way?). It's very difficult for them to fight the Hydra, and they haven't thought of a successful way of doing so yet. Read their annual report/war strategy on their home page, this talks of the "threat of open source software". Nice language. (3) The /most/ likely thing that they are going to do is add mechanisms that prevent installing software on non-MS platforms. Now while their might be ways around those, every EULA will state (not sure if they already do) that you may only install on MS sanctioned OSs. Now there is a clear case for fighting this on anti-trust terms, but the problem is that who is going to mount the challenge? Mark > -----Original Message----- > From: Jakov af Wallby [mailto:ja...@vm...] > Sent: 12 October 2001 15:04 > To: ros...@re... > Subject: [ros-kernel] Re: RE: Re: Legal... > > > > > No, they have no legal standing. > The difference is both Ford and Chrysler have loads of money. > > > On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 09:52:39AM -0400, Eric wrote: > > I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be one but I simply fail > to see how M$ > > have any legal standing. That's like Ford suing Chrysler for > copying the > > automobile. Is it not? > > > > After all, M$ literally copied the Window concept from Xerox > and MS-DOS was > > a derivative of CP/M which they purchased and copied. > > > > ==================================================== > = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = > = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = > ==================================================== > > ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Rick P. <rfm...@sw...> - 2001-10-12 16:26:41
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Eric wrote: >I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be one but I simply fail to see how M$ >have any legal standing. That's like Ford suing Chrysler for copying the >automobile. Is it not? > >After all, M$ literally copied the Window concept from Xerox and MS-DOS was >a derivative of CP/M which they purchased and copied. > The merits of any suit would have to be weighed in court. The judge giving the decision may be very well versed in the law but be relatively ignorant of the technology to which the law is being applied. The only way to make your case is by hiring representation that is knowledgable of both the law and the technology. Compare this civil process to a criminal trial where you have been charged with a crime. Say you spend $30,000 defending yourself. You successfully prove your innocence but you are still stuck with the bill. Being right does not make you immune. You have to be proactive which starts with taking a defensive stance in your actions. My current thinking is that if you are serious about making a contribution that is potentially controversial enough to draw a lawsuit (like ROS) - the code should be handled through some sort of corporate shell and the contributor should be anonymous. The folks that do this sort of thing do so for the recognition or for the "thank you factor" so doing so anonymously takes away much of the satisfaction. I am not a lawyer nor do I wish to make one wealthy! Regards, Rick Parrish ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Rex J. <re...@lv...> - 2001-10-12 23:45:26
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At 09:52 AM 10/12/01 -0400, you wrote: >I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be one but I simply fail to see how M$ >have any legal standing. That's like Ford suing Chrysler for copying the >automobile. Is it not? > >After all, M$ literally copied the Window concept from Xerox and MS-DOS was >a derivative of CP/M which they purchased and copied. I am sure that Microsoft believes they have hundreds of patents on technology in the NT operating system. It does not matter than those patents are bogus, one would have to defend oneself against them all the same and expend scarce resources doing so. Rex Jolliff re...@lv... ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Richard C. <rc...@ca...> - 2001-10-13 17:44:17
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Microsoft would drag you guys through court because they KNOW it would kill the project. The financial drain from court costs, etc. would probably cause most developers to leave the project. Personally I hope this never happens, because as I said before, ROS will replace Windows, mark my words. :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rex Jolliff" <re...@lv...> To: <ros...@re...> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:46 PM Subject: [ros-kernel] Re: RE: Re: Legal... > At 09:52 AM 10/12/01 -0400, you wrote: > >I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be one but I simply fail to see how M$ > >have any legal standing. That's like Ford suing Chrysler for copying the > >automobile. Is it not? > > > >After all, M$ literally copied the Window concept from Xerox and MS-DOS was > >a derivative of CP/M which they purchased and copied. > > I am sure that Microsoft believes they have hundreds of patents on > technology in the > NT operating system. It does not matter than those patents are bogus, one > would > have to defend oneself against them all the same and expend scarce > resources doing > so. > > > Rex Jolliff > re...@lv... > > ==================================================== > = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = > = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = > ==================================================== > ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Jason F. <jas...@ya...> - 2001-10-13 21:26:44
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Would the FSF really _want_ copyright of ReactOS code if this is the case? It may be easier and more convient for everyone to set up a seperate legal entity to take the fall if it happens. - Jason --- Richard Campbell <rc...@ca...> wrote: > Microsoft would drag you guys through court because they KNOW it > would kill > the project. The financial drain from court costs, etc. would > probably > cause most developers to leave the project. Personally I hope this > never > happens, because as I said before, ROS will replace Windows, mark > my words. > :) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rex Jolliff" <re...@lv...> > To: <ros...@re...> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:46 PM > Subject: [ros-kernel] Re: RE: Re: Legal... > > > > At 09:52 AM 10/12/01 -0400, you wrote: > > >I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be one but I simply fail > to see how > M$ > > >have any legal standing. That's like Ford suing Chrysler for > copying the > > >automobile. Is it not? > > > > > >After all, M$ literally copied the Window concept from Xerox and > MS-DOS > was > > >a derivative of CP/M which they purchased and copied. > > > > I am sure that Microsoft believes they have hundreds of patents > on > > technology in the > > NT operating system. It does not matter than those patents are > bogus, one > > would > > have to defend oneself against them all the same and expend > scarce > > resources doing > > so. > > > > > > Rex Jolliff > > re...@lv... > > > > ==================================================== > > = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = > > = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = > > ==================================================== > > > > ==================================================== > = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = > = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = > ==================================================== > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Eric <em...@po...> - 2001-10-15 13:31:23
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Well it's a moot point. I can see we all basically agree on what's RIGHT but it all comes down to how much $ M$ wants to spend pursuing a lawsuit. I frankly don't see them doing this for reasons already stated. What is ROS prepared to do in such an event? Or is it something you really aren't concerned with right now? Just curious. Eric -----Original Message----- From: Rex Jolliff [mailto:re...@lv...] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 6:46 PM To: ros...@re... Subject: [ros-kernel] Re: RE: Re: Legal... At 09:52 AM 10/12/01 -0400, you wrote: >I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be one but I simply fail to see how M$ >have any legal standing. That's like Ford suing Chrysler for copying the >automobile. Is it not? > >After all, M$ literally copied the Window concept from Xerox and MS-DOS was >a derivative of CP/M which they purchased and copied. I am sure that Microsoft believes they have hundreds of patents on technology in the NT operating system. It does not matter than those patents are bogus, one would have to defend oneself against them all the same and expend scarce resources doing so. Rex Jolliff re...@lv... ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
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From: Jason F. <jas...@ya...> - 2001-10-15 19:14:43
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I don't think they'll be too quick to do this.. it would give the project a lot of publicity and in their eyes do more harm than good. They'll only worry about us when their marketshare starts being affected. Nevertheless, I have contacted the FSF asking for their advice. - Jason --- Eric <em...@po...> wrote: > Well it's a moot point. I can see we all basically agree on what's > RIGHT > but it all comes down to how much $ M$ wants to spend pursuing a > lawsuit. I > frankly don't see them doing this for reasons already stated. > > What is ROS prepared to do in such an event? Or is it something > you really > aren't concerned with right now? Just curious. > > Eric > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rex Jolliff [mailto:re...@lv...] > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 6:46 PM > To: ros...@re... > Subject: [ros-kernel] Re: RE: Re: Legal... > > > At 09:52 AM 10/12/01 -0400, you wrote: > >I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be one but I simply fail to > see how > M$ > >have any legal standing. That's like Ford suing Chrysler for > copying the > >automobile. Is it not? > > > >After all, M$ literally copied the Window concept from Xerox and > MS-DOS was > >a derivative of CP/M which they purchased and copied. > > I am sure that Microsoft believes they have hundreds of patents on > technology in the > NT operating system. It does not matter than those patents are > bogus, one > would > have to defend oneself against them all the same and expend scarce > resources doing > so. > > > Rex Jolliff > re...@lv... > > ==================================================== > = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = > = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = > ==================================================== > > ==================================================== > = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = > = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = > ==================================================== > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ==================================================== = To remove yourself from this mailing list, go to = = http://www.reactos.com/home/mailing.html = ==================================================== |
