RE: re[2]: [Rainbowportal-devel] Why CVS is unused? - Policy Plan
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From: Jonathan M. <jon...@jo...> - 2005-05-05 16:02:03
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This is a draft, of the contibuter policies that we are trying to bring forth. When reading this keep in mind that things are still either being tested or in design and early implementation. This will undergo some revision, feedback from all of you, and as things are ready to go, we will post clear documentation on rainbowportal.net and confluence. Rainbow Policy Plan: ( Draft 1) None of this is fully existent yet, so there is no actual migration yet. Once we find a suitable SVN administrator who can take responsibility for managing the svn server, then we can proceed with fully creating a user base. Currently, the whole solution is running one only one user, which is unacceptable way to manage multiple users. Two documenting the best and simpliest migration path. The Final Goal: Dev solution - this is a free for all so to speak solution, where active devs are updating their solutions many times over and commiting code, working alone or with others on whatever Task they've so chosen. Anyone can be part of this solution, it's open source, but most people are not going to be doing this. You have builds that are not even going to compile possibly, and db's that might not run. But it's open accesable code that dev's can work on together with all the power that SVN brings ( once we get the administration worked out ). Test solution - this is also free solution, that will have a clear path of access for everyone, but this is what you would call qa, beta stuff, your saying a feature is developed, its ready for some usage and possibly submission to kernel or added download somewhere. You want multiple people to download and test the code, installation, make sure it's localized, make sure it something that won't cause problems once it's in production. This gets a few extra pairs of eyes on some code to make sure it's top notch RB make us proud gold Beta / Staging Solution - if something has passed tests, than the code is good and will be previewed life on rainbowbeta always, this gets initial feedback going, this is still code you need to download and compile yourself.. This is not release code, this is not Rainbow Version, there is no support demanded for dev solution, or test solutions, on the Forums and Support Groups you deal with current RB versions, these are documented and easy to manage, beta is prerelease, it can be buggy, it can have rough install although most stuff should be weeded out in test solution. Final Release and Version - By having the different steps, you have what seems like a longer process but in fact, ends up being a simple way for everyone to find a smooth place. Newbies, oldtimers, gurus masters and students all the active coders will spend there free time working in dev solution, modifying code, busting their heades.. Experienced people who have varying times will put ther time in test solution and or beta staging, downloading what should be working code, compiles installs, should be safe upgrades for your existing db's you have people all around the world using rb in different scenarios who know how to set it up and test on their different needs quickly and efficeitnly, finding the common bugs and problems, making sure installs and upgrades are safe and smooth, this happens quickly now, so code that is moved from dev to test, goes quickly throuh in intensive move in some cases might have to go back to dev, but in most cases probably with minor bugs or issues moving inot final, letting you have good clean releases more often, and with less issues, less support needed,and more efficient use of everyones time doing what they have time for whenever they do. Bugs and issues can be found anywhere, and can be dealt with by any of the teams or solutions, everyone has full access to everything, its just a matter of choosing whats best for each at what time I think. ------------------------------------ In response the "1+4=5", if you take the time to manage the lists properly, as many have pointed out, open a gmail account, have every lists sf, yahoo, whatever you want point there and you have now only one place you need to manage everything. If you have a big fat hard drive you can even point your gmail to your outlook and do it all locally. So "1+whatever you want still equals one If you put a little effort into using the tools the way they can be used" and 1 is fine if 1 where a good tool, but sf mail list is TOO SLOW to be a good tool. "I would simply like someone to indicate on rainbowportal.net what all the lists are, where they are, what they are for and who to contact to join them." http://www.rainbowportal.net <http://www.rainbowportal.net/site/3405/support.aspx> /site/3405/support.aspx all of the yahoo groups have been posted on this page for some time. There posting was announced to this list by Chris more than once if I am not mistaken. How to update them and properly categorize them was even discussed on this list. Aslo the betateam mail was announced on this list for anyone interested in coding against that solution to try and move its release along faster. It started out as a solution by a new comer, and yes as your worried stated backward compatibily were one of the issues that came up, and this is why thanks to several more experienced and bright team members with more experience Rob, Manu, Rick, Rahul, Charles, Mark, Kieth, Jose and all those who have gone to the beta site and made issues aware the solution is moving along and getting in shape with regards to those concerns while still managing to move forward and bring about lots of great updates. ------------------------------------ Back to the point, as each step is ready to go with proper administration, and documented, everything is going to be posted on rainbowportal.net, as well as all the groups, with how and where everything is. That can't happen yet, because it's not all there yet. If something is only in design or test right now, how do you want everyone to go try and use it? It doesn't exist yet. The same for New Genesis. Everyone wants to know how and where to code it..but it doesn't exist yet, not even a kernel, it's still in design, that's what the New Genesis group does, it discusses the design of the code from the ground up, and as each component is optimized it is slowly coming together starting with a high quality DB lead by Bill. Where we stand currently: Currently the dev solution is almost up and running, our major holdback is SVN administration, but we are working on that end. Once dev solution has administration it is a matter of one or two days to set up the other solutions, test, beta and prodo. If you check the Yahoo group, a discussion was even borught up that there is a way to sync svn and cvs. SO that final release versions or very clean code are still accessable on sourceforge with the anonymous accounts most people have today. This is an interesting idea that could save lots of support problems later with migration. _____ From: rai...@li... [mailto:rai...@li...] On Behalf Of Mark Gregory Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 1:44 PM To: rai...@li... Subject: RE: re[2]: [Rainbowportal-devel] Why CVS is unused? As I said, go for it. All open source project teams change over time, it is impossible to maintain a life and contribute to a project as much as we would all like. If you have time to allocate to Rainbow, great news for all of us. What you miss is that whilst some of us cannot code during busy periods of the year, we like to keep abreast of what is happening. You are making it harder to stay up with what is happening, by increasing the number of lists we have to belong to. If you fail to understand that then what can I say that you would understand? Let me try 1 + 4 = 5 I would simply like someone to indicate on rainbowportal.net what all the lists are, where they are, what they are for and who to contact to join them. Having said that, it is important that we are all able to see the source code progress, and Manu has said this will continue to be. It would be devastating if changes are made that break part of the functionality. Some of us have many years invested in Rainbow. We need to be able to migrate from one db build to the next. I may be wrong, but when I have seen this sort of spilt occur in other projects, the result is a loss of backwards compatibility and no way to migrate. Jonathan, please keep this in mind. Being able to migrate the db to new versions is a fundamental must. I can survive most other problems. I would appreciate being pointed at SVN and the tools needed to interact with it. mark _____ From: rai...@li... [mailto:rai...@li...] On Behalf Of Jonathan Minond Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 6:27 PM To: rai...@li... Subject: RE: re[2]: [Rainbowportal-devel] Why CVS is unused? "..see many people who have contributed over such a long time that are unhappy with what has happened, it disappoints me. ." Are they actually unhappy? Or are they just voicing concerns, opening discussion, which help guide the transision and try to make things as error free and smooth as possible. I might be wrong, but it was not the new people in the groups who started the discussion of SVN months ago, its not the new people who started the discussion of better testing and standards to the code, it was everyone in this list, who has taken part in the overall discussions for many many months. Now, there are some people actually trying to make those things happen, and like an organization change, its not nessesarly easy or obvious at first. But with a little patience and dilligance, everyone gets what they wanted or begins to see things they wanted coming about. .." it never happened in the Rainbow community until late 2004 onwards."... yeah, and if you ask the public, rainbow wasn't even so active until late 2004 when it pushed to make 1.5. Before late 2004, RB's name was bad, disapperarig and hurt. since late 2004, awareness is growing, downloads are growing, and the community is growing. Every time you mention locking discussion to this list.. It seems like you don't want any of those things to happen. ".Please don't forget to send a message to rainbowportal-devel when a new version is ready. Us "users" might like to know so we can use it.." Right of the bat, I don't think that's a fair one. Unless I am completely mistaken, since day one, the BetaTeam was announced before it existed, inviting people to take part in it, getting advice on it from many older and big contributers to Rainbow, from day one all the yahoo lists where mentioned and listed in this list, and brought up for discussion on how to show make them findable from rainbowportal.net. From day one every yahoo group was open for anyone to join, with the complaints about this list being that sf mail list is not good. It's slow, has big delays, and those message delays cause confusion at many times. Yahoo groups offer the same thing as this list, only better. From day one, I made the beta solutions available for download, so that some of the better more experienced Rainbow developers like yourself could download and help me test and debug it, becuyase there was so much core changes, it would have been suicide to just shove this into CVS, so it made as good a time as any to start pushing some other ideas that THIS GROUP the dev list has discussed more than once, and then nothing happens. This dev list was in charge of managing all the community, yet... so what happened? As soon as the yahoo groups came into play, you got better support on yahoo and on forums. I think the problem is a lot of people are very uncomfortable in the old and known.. And even though almost everyone can agree the new is better, it's not always an easy and smooth transition for the people who are used to one thing. Well, one of My aims, and I am sure that of all those involved in trying to get SVN running smooth, in setting up betateam, dev solutions, test solutions, etc.those who are working on organization in rainbowportal.net, confluence, forums, those who are doing it in code, servers, hosting, resources, those setting up non English support areas, and building the community. I am sure that the point is to try to find a way to make it as easy and smooth a transition for the developers, causal users, newbies, everyone. And please, lets stop just generalizing everything. If I said, 90% of users are interested in the newest "release" and not the day to day tests, then don't take that personally and translate as saying the whole devlist is users. Take into account, that before the yahoo groups, the forums were on their way to dying, and the dev list was your only place to find anything out about rainbow. so it's safe to say that not everyone on this list is a developer. I am certain that not everyone on this list even writes code, and I am certain that not all those who do contribute code to public RB. Everyone who has contributed, is pretty aware they have done so, and anyone who has peeked at the code is probably pretty familiar with a fair number of those names. So please don't triviliaze my statements or generalize them into making it seem like I am insulting any RB team member. I have great respect for the entire RB team, coders and not, everyone makes a big effort and dedicates time in whatever ways they can. Some people write documentation, others help organize the sites, and community, others have time to look at the sites and offer feedback and find bugs, others have time to look at bugs and fix them, others have time to code new features. Whatever you are doing, you all know that when you put something out there, everyone appreciates it and is very greeatful. But let's be honest, THIS LIST IS NOT ONLY DEVELOPERS, in fact I am inclined to believe that less than HALF this list is actually coders. Then,, take into account the amount of anonymous public users that have come across this message archive, how do they separate what is working stable releases, from what is development. when this is the only discussion forum for developers? Just let it go.. How many times would you like to bring up the discussion that there is more than one source of information and discussion? Oddly enough.. RainbowModules, RainbowThemes, RainbowBeta and RainbowRecruits never have off topic discussions, they are all geared at not wasting peoples times. _____ From: rai...@li... [mailto:rai...@li...] On Behalf Of Mark Gregory Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 9:18 AM To: rai...@li... Subject: RE: re[2]: [Rainbowportal-devel] Why CVS is unused? Lets get it out into the open. If you are on the rainbow-devel group you're not having to put up with XXXX. But be aware that if you "volunteer" to move to the yahoo groups, expect the unexpected. To say that the rainbowportal-devel group is for users and not the developers is wrong. Some of us have been around for more than a week (like the current movers and shakers) and have always used rainbowportal-devel. Users go to the forums and the asp.net forum. Really, there is so much garbage being put around now, it never happened in the Rainbow community until late 2004 onwards. I see many people who have contributed over such a long time that are unhappy with what has happened, it disappoints me. However, if the people working on Rainbow now want to do this, and the project managers are happy to do it, then so be it. Please don't forget to send a message to rainbowportal-devel when a new version is ready. Us "users" might like to know so we can use it. Mark _____ From: rai...@li... [mailto:rai...@li...] On Behalf Of Jeremy Esland Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 1:07 PM To: rai...@li... Subject: re[2]: [Rainbowportal-devel] Why CVS is unused? Hmmmm indeed.... I'm confused. I'm working on major enhancements to global.asax, Rewriter, Exception Management (including updating log4net to latest version and utilising new features thereof), a new SmartError page, Portal locking capabilities, etc. So from where should I now be pulling down the latest enhancements from others so I can integrate/test? And to where will I subsequently point my update? When was the rainbowportal-devel listed "demoted" to only dealing with "users"... I thought the "devel" part stood for "development" ;-) Jeremy (jes1111) ----------------------- Original Message ----------------------- From: "Jonathan Minond" <mailto:jon...@jo...> <jon...@jo...> To: <mailto:rai...@li...> <rai...@li...> Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 15:19:13 +0200 Subject: RE: [Rainbowportal-devel] Why CVS is unused? Hmmm..Well, The aim is that over the course of the next few weeks we are doing a few things, 1) stabilize the solution to represent 1.5 SP1, this means reproducing any changes that have been made to CVS that haven't been reproduced yet one of the reasons I encourage any active developer to contact the bet...@ra..., so that you can be working on making that happen. 2) Introduce the new Page Manager, Forum Module, File Manager and whatever else gets done in time 3) Finish testing and familiarizing ourselves with working with SVN. The goal being moving development to there so we get to benefit from all the SVN offers. 4) Introduce the different layers of development. Dev->test->staging->release . This way the code to be considered for release has gone through the process of being developed, tested, received its feedback and should then be considered ready to be a public release. This can then happen more regularly and with less issues if the processes are ironed out through a multi step process. 5) Ability to manage module images and css in theme directories 6) Some changes/updates to modules such as discussion, sitemap, file directory tree and others Currently we have a functioning SVN solution for the beta solution, we are just working on learning to administer it better and with more ease, ironing out any issues so to speak, so that when the masses move from CVS to SVN hopefully it's as smooth as possible. I think that over the next few weeks, things will become much clearer and easier for everyone, as more instructions and transitions come into play. For now I just Urge that anyone who is actively coding currently, should be making an effort to work with or on the betateam at this point, so that we can roll out a top notch SP1 for RB 1.5 as well as implement some much needed upgrades in the organization, switching from CVS -> SVN, and assuring a better development process that guarantees rainbow continues to improve on its reputation and quality while still growing both its community and code base. I think that it's amazing that so many people seem to be getting excited and showing lots of interest. I can assure you that although there are concerns, and a few bumps here and there, I strongly believe, and I think after following in the discussions and agreemenets over the past few months, what we are trying to do is put some of those things into action, that have been being spoken about more many months. I think its a lot of reasons to get excited, and like any changes it's hard at first and nerve recking but most often for the best. The fact that there are so many updates to the CVS solution as well as the beta solution just means we have a great many people excited about working and coding for rainbow, making it a better project than ever before I believe. But with a growth in numbers, we need more organization as well to support the community. To many people download CVS to have it be a test solution. So If anyone is an SVN wizard, and want to help us get on the ball quicker, you can contact the beta team. If you are actively working on the cvs core or modules, fixing bugs, or working on something you want to make for SP1 then I suggest you contact the beta team. Ok, well. If there are any questions, feel free to ask more, maybe some other people working on the beta stuff and pushing on getting "order to the chaos", you can review the message boards in the beta yahoo group to see some of the discussion and details as to the design plans. Regards, Jonathan _____ From: rai...@li... [mailto:rai...@li...] On Behalf Of Mike Stone Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:22 PM To: rai...@li... Subject: Re: [Rainbowportal-devel] Why CVS is unused? Yes, I see your point. How can you go to Jira and work on issues when CVS is no longer being maintained with code changes. The Beta Team does have a lot of changes and is only a small number of us. I know they are working hard to get a place for everyone to hook back up and be a community again. Now if you make changes to CVS (which I guess you can) then someone will have to run back to CVS and find out what you changed and move it to the new Beta Project. Jonathan, can you or Rahul share with the DeV list what is coming and the time line for it. Mike Stone Director of Computer Information Services Kaskaskia College 27210 College Road Centralia, IL 62801 618-545-3201 www.kaskaskia.edu >>> jvi...@po... 5/2/2005 03:33:53 >>> In the last weeks there are a lot of new development make by people work in groups controlled by leader's. This is dangerous for the project. The new sources are not accessible to all the people and there are a risk for repeated or not compatible development. A lot of valid developers can not have time now to create new sources, but they have time to testear and to solve small problems. I agree in some cases work in groups, but I'm absolutly desagree with not use CVS like a normal container for sources, included the new aggregations. ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. 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