rails-devel

[Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Stefan also sent the following bug report to me on 1835:

<quote>
For each selling transaction the price drops by one row
<snip/>
(1) BUG: Only after the first transaction the price drops (sr3)
(2) BUG: All shares are sold for the price at the beginning or par (sr3)

In each selling transaction any number of shares of one company can be sold
(2.6.3.1)
(3) BUG: Cannot sell 10% and 20% in one transaction
</quote>

I don't think there are bugs here, but interpretations may differ.

Rails always allows selling multiple shares of the same company in the same
turn at the same price, regardless how many actions it takes. I know the
1835 rules can be interpreted as to mean that each single player selling
action, even within one turn, would move the price down, but I doubt if that
is correct. The example in the rules refers to multiple sales in *different*
turns, and the similar 1844 rules state pretty explicitly that this indeed
would be the correct interpretation.

(3) is therefore not a bug but a simplification. You can sell as many 10%
and 20% shares (or 5% and 10% Preussische) in one turn at the same price as
you like and the rules allow.

Other opinions?

Erik.

Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[brett l. <bre...@gm...>]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:
>
> Stefan also sent the following bug report to me on 1835:
>
> <quote>
> For each selling transaction the price drops by one row
> <snip/>
> (1) BUG: Only after the first transaction the price drops (sr3)
> (2) BUG: All shares are sold for the price at the beginning or par (sr3)
>
> In each selling transaction any number of shares of one company can be sold
> (2.6.3.1)
> (3) BUG: Cannot sell 10% and 20% in one transaction
> </quote>
>
> I don't think there are bugs here, but interpretations may differ.
>
> Rails always allows selling multiple shares of the same company in the same
> turn at the same price, regardless how many actions it takes. I know the
> 1835 rules can be interpreted as to mean that each single player selling
> action, even within one turn, would move the price down, but I doubt if that
> is correct. The example in the rules refers to multiple sales in *different*
> turns, and the similar 1844 rules state pretty explicitly that this indeed
> would be the correct interpretation.
>
> (3) is therefore not a bug but a simplification. You can sell as many 10%
> and 20% shares (or 5% and 10% Preussische) in one turn at the same price as
> you like and the rules allow.
>
> Other opinions?
>
> Erik.
>

There are two distinct use-cases here:

1. I sell a share, then realize I meant to sell multiple shares as a
single sale, and so I sell more shares.   Result:  This should be
counted as a single sale, with a single drop in stock value for the
whole sale transaction.

2. I deliberately want to trash the stock price of a company by
selling multiple shares as individual transactions. Result: This
should be counted as multiple sales transactions, and drop the stock
value for each sale transaction.

I'm not sure there's a good code-based way for Rails to distinguish #1
from #2 without additional information.

Personally, I'm totally okay with saying that the correct way to
execute #1 is to click Undo, and re-do your single sale as intended.
This means that Rails should treat all sales as individual
transactions, and so achieving #2 is as easy as "Sell 1... then Sell
1.... then Sell 1..."

---Brett.

Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[Aliza P. <ali...@gm...>]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 1:47 PM, brett lentz <bre...@gm...> wrote:
>>
>
> There are two distinct use-cases here:
>
> 1. I sell a share, then realize I meant to sell multiple shares as a
> single sale, and so I sell more shares.   Result:  This should be
> counted as a single sale, with a single drop in stock value for the
> whole sale transaction.

You click "undo" and then sell them all as a single transaction.

(Alternatively, Rails could generically prohibit selling shares
one-at-a-time, since all games I'm aware of that discuss the topic
explicitly disallow it.)


>
> 2. I deliberately want to trash the stock price of a company by
> selling multiple shares as individual transactions. Result: This
> should be counted as multiple sales transactions, and drop the stock
> value for each sale transaction.
>
> I'm not sure there's a good code-based way for Rails to distinguish #1
> from #2 without additional information.
>
> Personally, I'm totally okay with saying that the correct way to
> execute #1 is to click Undo, and re-do your single sale as intended.
> This means that Rails should treat all sales as individual
> transactions, and so achieving #2 is as easy as "Sell 1... then Sell
> 1.... then Sell 1..."

Yes.

>
> ---Brett.
>

Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

All good and fine, except that precluding multiple sale actions complicates
selling mixtures of shares of different sizes.
If you have, say, 3 5% and 2 10% Prussian shares, a list of all possible
(12) combinations should be offered to allow each possible combination to be
sold in one sell action. 
As it is, no combinations need be included, as any mix can be sold for the
same price in two (or more) actions.

See additional comment below.

Erik.

-----Original Message-----
From: Aliza Panitz [mailto:ali...@gm...] 
Sent: Friday 05 March 2010 22:53
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 1:47 PM, brett lentz <bre...@gm...> wrote:
>>
>
> There are two distinct use-cases here:
>
> 1. I sell a share, then realize I meant to sell multiple shares as a
> single sale, and so I sell more shares.   Result:  This should be
> counted as a single sale, with a single drop in stock value for the
> whole sale transaction.

You click "undo" and then sell them all as a single transaction.

(Alternatively, Rails could generically prohibit selling shares
one-at-a-time, since all games I'm aware of that discuss the topic
explicitly disallow it.)

[EV] I suppose you mean: selling one-by-one at *different* prices. But that
is not what we're discussing here, so you're in fact strengthening my point.

> 2. I deliberately want to trash the stock price of a company by
> selling multiple shares as individual transactions. Result: This
> should be counted as multiple sales transactions, and drop the stock
> value for each sale transaction.
>
> I'm not sure there's a good code-based way for Rails to distinguish #1
> from #2 without additional information.
>
> Personally, I'm totally okay with saying that the correct way to
> execute #1 is to click Undo, and re-do your single sale as intended.
> This means that Rails should treat all sales as individual
> transactions, and so achieving #2 is as easy as "Sell 1... then Sell
> 1.... then Sell 1..."

Yes.

>
> ---Brett.
>

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Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[brett l. <bre...@gm...>]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Aliza Panitz <ali...@gm...> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Dave Mitton <da...@mi...> wrote:
>> errr - 1830 does discuss this, and it does allow you to sell shares
>> (particularly during a forced train purchase!)
>> one at a time, each time at a lower value  (if the token moves - could be on
>> a shelf)
>
> 1830 is evil. :-)
>
> Other games explicitly prohibit many kinds of evilness found in 1830,
> including this one.
>
> I guess that's something we need to add to the definition of a game.
>
>  - Aliza
>


It's what makes 1830 fun. :-D

Maybe we just need a "cutthroat" mode?

---Brett.

Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

But err... where do the 1830 rules say so? I can't find it.
And the 1830 PC game does the same thing as Rails: keep the selling price
equal until the end of the turn, regardless in what order shares of any
companies are sold.

Eirk. 

-----Original Message-----
From: brett lentz [mailto:bre...@gm...] 
Sent: Saturday 06 March 2010 00:56
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Aliza Panitz <ali...@gm...> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Dave Mitton <da...@mi...> wrote:
>> errr - 1830 does discuss this, and it does allow you to sell shares
>> (particularly during a forced train purchase!)
>> one at a time, each time at a lower value  (if the token moves - could be
on
>> a shelf)
>
> 1830 is evil. :-)
>
> Other games explicitly prohibit many kinds of evilness found in 1830,
> including this one.
>
> I guess that's something we need to add to the definition of a game.
>
>  - Aliza
>


It's what makes 1830 fun. :-D

Maybe we just need a "cutthroat" mode?

---Brett.

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Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[brett l. <bre...@gm...>]

On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 10:22 AM, John David Galt
<jd...@di...> wrote:
>>> There are two distinct use-cases here:
>>>
>>> 1. I sell a share, then realize I meant to sell multiple shares as a
>>> single sale, and so I sell more shares.   Result:  This should be
>>> counted as a single sale, with a single drop in stock value for the
>>> whole sale transaction.
>>
>> You click "undo" and then sell them all as a single transaction.
>
> This seems needlessly cumbersome to me.
>
>> (Alternatively, Rails could generically prohibit selling shares
>> one-at-a-time, since all games I'm aware of that discuss the topic
>> explicitly disallow it.)
>
> The 1830 FAQ by Bruce Shelley, published in The General, specifically
> allows one-at-a-time sales (though in 1830, you would be doing it not
> to reduce the stock's final price, but to receive less money in
> preparation for intentional bankruptcy).  However, not everyone accepts
> the Shelley FAQ, and I can't see any other reason ever to want to do
> one-at-a-time selling anyway, at least in games which follow the 1830
> rule in determining the new share price.
>
> Of course, there are some games that do prohibit it as you say.  1870
> is one.  (Of course in 1870, the stock price doesn't drop until the
> president decides not to price-protect, so the only effect, if it were
> allowed, would be to break up the sale into separate sales, thus
> allowing the president to price-protect some shares but not others of
> the same company on the same turn.)
>


That's exactly the type of play I see in my face-to-face games.

Right or wrong, efficient play or not, there are players who *do* play
like that.


> In 1835 it is not at all clear that one-at-a-time sales are allowed
> during a single stock turn.  The example in paragraph XV.8 (of the 2nd
> edition English rules) has these sales taking place on separate turns,
> thus seeming to imply (although not explicitly saying) that if you want
> the price to fall more than one row, you have to make each sale on a
> separate turn (though they may be turns of a single stock round).
>
>>> Personally, I'm totally okay with saying that the correct way to
>>> execute #1 is to click Undo, and re-do your single sale as intended.
>>> This means that Rails should treat all sales as individual
>>> transactions, and so achieving #2 is as easy as "Sell 1... then Sell
>>> 1.... then Sell 1..."
>
> I disagree.  I'd rather have Rails treat all sales on a single turn as
> a single sale even if made as separate transactions, possibly with an
> explicit exception for 1830 (or maybe an override in the moderator menu).
>
> This is similar to my issue with the drop-down menus on the CGR-formation
> window in 1856: the program should behave so as never to induce mistakes,
> even if it sometimes means not following the rules to the extent of exact
> pedantic details that no player at the table ever follows anyway.
>


I think your assumption that "no player" follows the exact pedantic
details of the rules is incorrect.

The group I tend to play with prefers 1830, 1856, and 1870 exactly
*because* those pedantic details lend themselves very well to a highly
cutthroat style of play. Depending on the timing, in 1870, it can
occasionally be advantageous to do certain manipulations, such as
selling just enough stock to entice a player to price protect some
shares, but still selling more shares that he can't price protect in a
different transaction, which means he won't have money to start a new
company before you get to start the new company first. This is
particularly advantageous if that player is to your immediate right,
so that when he price protects, it immediately becomes your turn
again.

While I agree with you that we should try to make it difficult to make
unintentional mistakes, I think Rails absolutely should try to support
a basic level of transactional precision when enforcing the rules.
Anything less would be imposing preconceived notions on how to play
the game that simply aren't in the rules.

---Brett.

Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[John D. G. <jd...@di...>]

> John David Galt wrote:
>> I disagree.  I'd rather have Rails treat all sales on a single turn as
>> a single sale even if made as separate transactions, possibly with an
>> explicit exception for 1830 (or maybe an override in the moderator menu).
>>
>> This is similar to my issue with the drop-down menus on the CGR-formation
>> window in 1856: the program should behave so as never to induce mistakes,
>> even if it sometimes means not following the rules to the extent of exact
>> pedantic details that no player at the table ever follows anyway.

brett lentz wrote:
> I think your assumption that "no player" follows the exact pedantic
> details of the rules is incorrect.
> 
> The group I tend to play with prefers 1830, 1856, and 1870 exactly
> *because* those pedantic details lend themselves very well to a highly
> cutthroat style of play. Depending on the timing, in 1870, it can
> occasionally be advantageous to do certain manipulations, such as
> selling just enough stock to entice a player to price protect some
> shares, but still selling more shares that he can't price protect in a
> different transaction, which means he won't have money to start a new
> company before you get to start the new company first. This is
> particularly advantageous if that player is to your immediate right,
> so that when he price protects, it immediately becomes your turn
> again.
> 
> While I agree with you that we should try to make it difficult to make
> unintentional mistakes, I think Rails absolutely should try to support
> a basic level of transactional precision when enforcing the rules.
> Anything less would be imposing preconceived notions on how to play
> the game that simply aren't in the rules.

Would you be OK with making both of these behaviors options in the
game-start dialogs?  (Call them "Simplified CGR formation" and
"Allow separate sales in one stock turn" respectively.)

Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[Dave M. <da...@mi...>]

<html><HEAD><LINK rel=stylesheet type=text/css href="/webmail/static/deg/css/wysiwyg-3451203449.css" media=all>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18876"></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>errr - 1830 does discuss this, and it does allow you to sell shares (particularly during a forced train purchase!)</DIV>
<DIV>one at a time, each time at a lower value&nbsp; (if the token moves - could be on a shelf)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I second Brett's method.&nbsp; Either you sell them in a group, or you have to execute multiple sales.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Dave.<BR><BR>Mar 5, 2010 04:52:44 PM, <A class=parsedEmail href="mailto:rai...@li..." target=_blank>rai...@li...</A> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,153,204) 3px solid">On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 1:47 PM, brett lentz &lt;<A class="parsedEmail parsedEmail" href="mailto:bre...@gm..." target=_blank>bre...@gm...</A>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; There are two distinct use-cases here:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 1. I sell a share, then realize I meant to sell multiple shares as a<BR>&gt; single sale, and so I sell more shares. &nbsp; Result: &nbsp;This should be<BR>&gt; counted as a single sale, with a single drop in stock value for the<BR>&gt; whole sale transaction.<BR><BR>You click "undo" and then sell them all as a single transaction.<BR><BR>(Alternatively, Rails could generically prohibit selling shares<BR>one-at-a-time, since all games I'm aware of that discuss the topic<BR>explicitly disallow it.)<BR><BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 2. I deliberately want to trash the stock price of a company by<BR>&gt; selling multiple shares as individual transactions. Result: This<BR>&gt; should be counted as multiple sales transactions, and drop the stock<BR>&gt; value for each sale transaction.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I'm not sure there's a good code-based way for Rails to distinguish #1<BR>&gt; from #2 without additional information.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Personally, I'm totally okay with saying that the correct way to<BR>&gt; execute #1 is to click Undo, and re-do your single sale as intended.<BR>&gt; This means that Rails should treat all sales as individual<BR>&gt; transactions, and so achieving #2 is as easy as "Sell 1... then Sell<BR>&gt; 1.... then Sell 1..."<BR><BR>Yes.<BR><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; ---Brett.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></html>

Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[Aliza P. <ali...@gm...>]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Dave Mitton <da...@mi...> wrote:
> errr - 1830 does discuss this, and it does allow you to sell shares
> (particularly during a forced train purchase!)
> one at a time, each time at a lower value  (if the token moves - could be on
> a shelf)

1830 is evil. :-)

Other games explicitly prohibit many kinds of evilness found in 1830,
including this one.

I guess that's something we need to add to the definition of a game.

 - Aliza

Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

To avoid misunderstandings here: 1835 includes the "evil" rule, which I think
offers an interesting choice: Receive more money or receive less  money to 
trash another players stock.

The precise ruless of 1835 are (all references are 2nd edition German rules).
* Each sell transaction contains 1-x number of shares of one company. 
(2.6.3.1)
* For each sell transaction the price drops by one row, regardless of the 
number of shares involved. (2.6.3.3.)

2.6.3.3. also contains the explicit example of two sell transactions in a row 
to achieve a two-row drop. 

To implement that in Rails my suggestion would be:
If the same player initiates a second sell transaction for the same company in 
a single SR turn, then she gets the choice to include that share in the 
previous transaction (no impact) or to start a new sell transaction (another 
drop). 

Stefan


On Saturday 06 March 2010 00:51:29 Aliza Panitz wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Dave Mitton <da...@mi...> wrote:
> > errr - 1830 does discuss this, and it does allow you to sell shares
> > (particularly during a forced train purchase!)
> > one at a time, each time at a lower value  (if the token moves - could be
> > on a shelf)
>
> 1830 is evil. :-)
>
> Other games explicitly prohibit many kinds of evilness found in 1830,
> including this one.
>
> I guess that's something we need to add to the definition of a game.
>
>  - Aliza
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--- Download Intel&#174; Parallel Studio Eval
> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

To avoid misunderstandings here: 1835 includes the "evil" rule, which I
think
offers an interesting choice: Receive more money or receive less  money to 
trash another players stock.

The precise ruless of 1835 are (all references are 2nd edition German
rules).
* Each sell transaction contains 1-x number of shares of one company. 
(2.6.3.1)
* For each sell transaction the price drops by one row, regardless of the 
number of shares involved. (2.6.3.3.)

2.6.3.3. also contains the explicit example of two sell transactions in a
row 
to achieve a two-row drop. 

[EV] I only have the English rules which are numbered differently, but the
example given there only explicitly mentions two sell transactions in
*different* turns. Are the German rules downloadable anywhere?

To implement that in Rails my suggestion would be:
If the same player initiates a second sell transaction for the same company
in 
a single SR turn, then she gets the choice to include that share in the 
previous transaction (no impact) or to start a new sell transaction (another

drop). 

[EV] Indeed. The whole discussion is about what a "transaction" is, and this
would be the easiest way out: let the player define it. I'm still not
convinced that adding this option is worth the effort (I think it'll take
creating a new specialized Dialog class), but if other people are, fine with
me. 

Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[John D. G. <jd...@di...>]

>> There are two distinct use-cases here:
>>
>> 1. I sell a share, then realize I meant to sell multiple shares as a
>> single sale, and so I sell more shares.   Result:  This should be
>> counted as a single sale, with a single drop in stock value for the
>> whole sale transaction.
> 
> You click "undo" and then sell them all as a single transaction.

This seems needlessly cumbersome to me.

> (Alternatively, Rails could generically prohibit selling shares
> one-at-a-time, since all games I'm aware of that discuss the topic
> explicitly disallow it.)

The 1830 FAQ by Bruce Shelley, published in The General, specifically
allows one-at-a-time sales (though in 1830, you would be doing it not
to reduce the stock's final price, but to receive less money in
preparation for intentional bankruptcy).  However, not everyone accepts
the Shelley FAQ, and I can't see any other reason ever to want to do
one-at-a-time selling anyway, at least in games which follow the 1830
rule in determining the new share price.

Of course, there are some games that do prohibit it as you say.  1870
is one.  (Of course in 1870, the stock price doesn't drop until the
president decides not to price-protect, so the only effect, if it were
allowed, would be to break up the sale into separate sales, thus
allowing the president to price-protect some shares but not others of
the same company on the same turn.)

In 1835 it is not at all clear that one-at-a-time sales are allowed
during a single stock turn.  The example in paragraph XV.8 (of the 2nd
edition English rules) has these sales taking place on separate turns,
thus seeming to imply (although not explicitly saying) that if you want
the price to fall more than one row, you have to make each sale on a
separate turn (though they may be turns of a single stock round).

>> Personally, I'm totally okay with saying that the correct way to
>> execute #1 is to click Undo, and re-do your single sale as intended.
>> This means that Rails should treat all sales as individual
>> transactions, and so achieving #2 is as easy as "Sell 1... then Sell
>> 1.... then Sell 1..."

I disagree.  I'd rather have Rails treat all sales on a single turn as
a single sale even if made as separate transactions, possibly with an
explicit exception for 1830 (or maybe an override in the moderator menu).

This is similar to my issue with the drop-down menus on the CGR-formation
window in 1856: the program should behave so as never to induce mistakes,
even if it sometimes means not following the rules to the extent of exact
pedantic details that no player at the table ever follows anyway.

Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

I did some research here and it seems that even the German and English 2nd 
edition rules themselves are conflicting.
However I belong to a weak minority here.

So I believe that there is no real need to support that. I liked the increased 
strategy space, but I can live with out it.

Stefan

Some more results:
Lemmi's moderator only allows playing according to the interpretation inline 
with the English rules. 

I compared it with some of the rules that share the same entry in the 18xx 
difference list: "2.7 - Does the stock price drop when stock is sold?"

1800, 1824, 1835, 1838 Rheinland, 1844, 1848, 1862, 1895, 18Rhl Rhineland, 
2038:  Yes, 1 row per block.
(However what exactly a "block" is, is not defined.)

At least the rules of 1824, 1844 and 1848 (all in the domain of Helmut Ohley) 
support the English rules interpretation. 

For Erik:
Link to the German "second edition rules" on boardgamegeek:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/26018/1835-spielregeln-pdf

which supports the interpretation that two sell actions are possible in one 
turn with different prices.
(As I used to play with those guys who edited the second edition not 
surprisingly I thought that this is the correct one).

According to the English translation on boardgamegeek
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/30065/1835-rules-in-english

Which gives a nearly identical example to the one in the German edition in 
2.6.3.3, but replaces the German word "Aktion" by "Turn". 

Other paragraphs (see below) define that each "Zug"(turn) in each share round 
consists of an unlimited number of sell "Aktionen". Sell actions are packages 
of shares of one company and the share price drops one row immediately after 
each sell action.


On Saturday 06 March 2010 13:52:23 Erik Vos wrote:
> To avoid misunderstandings here: 1835 includes the "evil" rule, which I
> think
> offers an interesting choice: Receive more money or receive less  money to
> trash another players stock.
>
> The precise ruless of 1835 are (all references are 2nd edition German
> rules).
> * Each sell transaction contains 1-x number of shares of one company.
> (2.6.3.1)
> * For each sell transaction the price drops by one row, regardless of the
> number of shares involved. (2.6.3.3.)
>
> 2.6.3.3. also contains the explicit example of two sell transactions in a
> row
> to achieve a two-row drop.
>
> [EV] I only have the English rules which are numbered differently, but the
> example given there only explicitly mentions two sell transactions in
> *different* turns. Are the German rules downloadable anywhere?
>
> To implement that in Rails my suggestion would be:
> If the same player initiates a second sell transaction for the same company
> in
> a single SR turn, then she gets the choice to include that share in the
> previous transaction (no impact) or to start a new sell transaction
> (another
>
> drop).
>
> [EV] Indeed. The whole discussion is about what a "transaction" is, and
> this would be the easiest way out: let the player define it. I'm still not
> convinced that adding this option is worth the effort (I think it'll take
> creating a new specialized Dialog class), but if other people are, fine
> with me.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--- Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval
> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
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> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
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Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 share selling

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

I think Rails should support both interpretations, as clearly there are some
groups playing with the "wrong" interpretation and it is better to support
them than to alienate them.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:

> I did some research here and it seems that even the German and English 2nd
> edition rules themselves are conflicting.
> However I belong to a weak minority here.
>
> So I believe that there is no real need to support that. I liked the
> increased
> strategy space, but I can live with out it.
>
> Stefan
>
> Some more results:
> Lemmi's moderator only allows playing according to the interpretation
> inline
> with the English rules.
>
> I compared it with some of the rules that share the same entry in the 18xx
> difference list: "2.7 - Does the stock price drop when stock is sold?"
>
> 1800, 1824, 1835, 1838 Rheinland, 1844, 1848, 1862, 1895, 18Rhl Rhineland,
> 2038:  Yes, 1 row per block.
> (However what exactly a "block" is, is not defined.)
>
> At least the rules of 1824, 1844 and 1848 (all in the domain of Helmut
> Ohley)
> support the English rules interpretation.
>
> For Erik:
> Link to the German "second edition rules" on boardgamegeek:
> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/26018/1835-spielregeln-pdf
>
> which supports the interpretation that two sell actions are possible in one
> turn with different prices.
> (As I used to play with those guys who edited the second edition not
> surprisingly I thought that this is the correct one).
>
> According to the English translation on boardgamegeek
> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/30065/1835-rules-in-english
>
> Which gives a nearly identical example to the one in the German edition in
> 2.6.3.3, but replaces the German word "Aktion" by "Turn".
>
> Other paragraphs (see below) define that each "Zug"(turn) in each share
> round
> consists of an unlimited number of sell "Aktionen". Sell actions are
> packages
> of shares of one company and the share price drops one row immediately
> after
> each sell action.
>
>
> On Saturday 06 March 2010 13:52:23 Erik Vos wrote:
> > To avoid misunderstandings here: 1835 includes the "evil" rule, which I
> > think
> > offers an interesting choice: Receive more money or receive less  money
> to
> > trash another players stock.
> >
> > The precise ruless of 1835 are (all references are 2nd edition German
> > rules).
> > * Each sell transaction contains 1-x number of shares of one company.
> > (2.6.3.1)
> > * For each sell transaction the price drops by one row, regardless of the
> > number of shares involved. (2.6.3.3.)
> >
> > 2.6.3.3. also contains the explicit example of two sell transactions in a
> > row
> > to achieve a two-row drop.
> >
> > [EV] I only have the English rules which are numbered differently, but
> the
> > example given there only explicitly mentions two sell transactions in
> > *different* turns. Are the German rules downloadable anywhere?
> >
> > To implement that in Rails my suggestion would be:
> > If the same player initiates a second sell transaction for the same
> company
> > in
> > a single SR turn, then she gets the choice to include that share in the
> > previous transaction (no impact) or to start a new sell transaction
> > (another
> >
> > drop).
> >
> > [EV] Indeed. The whole discussion is about what a "transaction" is, and
> > this would be the easiest way out: let the player define it. I'm still
> not
> > convinced that adding this option is worth the effort (I think it'll take
> > creating a new specialized Dialog class), but if other people are, fine
> > with me.
> >
> >
> >
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