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From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2009-11-21 18:31:21
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On popular request, I have added two new entries to the customizable configuration file my.properties. Both affect the default file name proposed by the program: Timezone: save.filename.date_time_zone=UTC The date-time stamp is calculated using the given time zone identifier. Default is local time. The time zone identifier must be a valid Java time zone name. Fortunately, that list is very long. Java 1.6 supports names like "UTC", "EST", "EST5EDT", "Etc/GMT+5", "Cuba", "America/Montreal", "Europe/Amsterdam" etc. A bit of googling might help. I found a Java applet that displays the list at http://mindprod.com/applet/tz.html, but you must have Java 1.6 installed. Suffix: save.filename.suffix=Me The suffix is appended to the base file name (before extension), separated by an underscore, which is added automatically. A file name created by the above settings could be 1830_20091121_1825_Me.rails For some reason that currently escapes me, a file can be saved only after at least one move has been done. I suppose that is not too much of a limitation... Erik. |
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From: Chris S. <chr...@gm...> - 2009-11-21 19:11:15
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Would it be possible to set the save file name suffix to the variable "next player"? -- Chris Shaffer Please consider the environment before printing this email. On Nov 21, 2009, at 10:31 AM, "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...> wrote: > On popular request, I have added two new entries to the customizable > configuration file my.properties. > Both affect the default file name proposed by the program: > > Timezone: > save.filename.date_time_zone=UTC > The date-time stamp is calculated using the given time zone > identifier. > Default is local time. > The time zone identifier must be a valid Java time zone name. > Fortunately, > that list is very long. > Java 1.6 supports names like "UTC", "EST", "EST5EDT", "Etc/GMT+5", > "Cuba", > "America/Montreal", "Europe/Amsterdam" etc. > A bit of googling might help. I found a Java applet that displays > the list > at http://mindprod.com/applet/tz.html, > but you must have Java 1.6 installed. > > Suffix: > save.filename.suffix=Me > The suffix is appended to the base file name (before extension), > separated > by an underscore, which is added automatically. > > A file name created by the above settings could be > 1830_20091121_1825_Me.rails > > For some reason that currently escapes me, a file can be saved only > after at > least one move has been done. > I suppose that is not too much of a limitation... > > Erik. > > > --- > --- > --- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 > 30-Day > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and > focus on > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel |
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From: Erik V. <eri...@hc...> - 2009-11-21 19:28:35
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Yes, the special value NEXT_PLAYER will do that. save.filename.suffix=NEXT_PLAYER > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Shaffer [mailto:chr...@gm...] > Sent: Saturday 21 November 2009 20:11 > To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game > Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Save file names > > Would it be possible to set the save file name suffix to the > variable > "next player"? > > -- > Chris Shaffer > > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > On Nov 21, 2009, at 10:31 AM, "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...> wrote: > > > On popular request, I have added two new entries to the customizable > > configuration file my.properties. > > Both affect the default file name proposed by the program: > > > > Timezone: > > save.filename.date_time_zone=UTC > > The date-time stamp is calculated using the given time zone > > identifier. > > Default is local time. > > The time zone identifier must be a valid Java time zone name. > > Fortunately, > > that list is very long. > > Java 1.6 supports names like "UTC", "EST", "EST5EDT", "Etc/GMT+5", > > "Cuba", > > "America/Montreal", "Europe/Amsterdam" etc. > > A bit of googling might help. I found a Java applet that displays > > the list > > at http://mindprod.com/applet/tz.html, > > but you must have Java 1.6 installed. > > > > Suffix: > > save.filename.suffix=Me > > The suffix is appended to the base file name (before extension), > > separated > > by an underscore, which is added automatically. > > > > A file name created by the above settings could be > > 1830_20091121_1825_Me.rails > > > > For some reason that currently escapes me, a file can be > saved only > > after at > > least one move has been done. > > I suppose that is not too much of a limitation... > > > > Erik. > > > > > > --- > > --- > > --- > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal > Reports 2008 > > 30-Day > > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and > deployment - and > > focus on > > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails-devel mailing list > > Rai...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------- > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal > Reports 2008 30-Day > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and > deployment - and focus on > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel |
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From: Jim B. <jim...@ya...> - 2009-11-23 21:09:17
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> Yes, the special value NEXT_PLAYER will do that. > save.filename.suffix=NEXT_PLAYER One aside on this current/next player for save files- ail's notion of current/next player is a little awkward for this, with pbem game, because it strongly depends on whether a player has hit 'Done' yet, or not. Once a players hits 'Done', current-player becomes next-player, next- player becomes the-guy-after-that, etc. If we were using this for save file names and token/next-player names, we'd have to be pretty disciplined about who presses "Done". But, along these lines- I know it's an odd idea, but is there any way to set the default so that it adds suffixes for BOTH current-player (well, more literally- the one who just moved), and, next-player (again more literally, the one who should move right-now) ? I'm thinking this might be the ideal way to have our cake and eat-it- too- Tom Dick and Harry were playing 18AL, I might imagine a folder listing like this: 1870_T000001_Tom_Dick 1870_T000002_Dick_Harry 1870_T000001_Harry_Tom 1870_T000001_Tom_Harry 1870_T000001_Harry_Tom 1870_T000001_Dick_Harry etc. The name on the left is the person saving the complete move- the name on the right is the current/next player, who needs to pick that up and move next. this would be convenient, because it would be easy to BOTH (a) find a specific player's previous moves, (b) see who's move it is next, with Rails help. Sorry to be longwinded, just thought I'd mention it. Thanks again for all the hard work on rails and this release- all the quick bug fixes, convenient options, etc. It's great. - jim On Nov 21, 2009, at 11:28 AM, Erik Vos wrote: > Yes, the special value NEXT_PLAYER will do that. > save.filename.suffix=NEXT_PLAYER > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chris Shaffer [mailto:chr...@gm...] >> Sent: Saturday 21 November 2009 20:11 >> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game >> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Save file names >> >> Would it be possible to set the save file name suffix to the >> variable >> "next player"? >> >> -- >> Chris Shaffer >> >> Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> On Nov 21, 2009, at 10:31 AM, "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...> wrote: >> >>> On popular request, I have added two new entries to the customizable >>> configuration file my.properties. >>> Both affect the default file name proposed by the program: >>> >>> Timezone: >>> save.filename.date_time_zone=UTC >>> The date-time stamp is calculated using the given time zone >>> identifier. >>> Default is local time. >>> The time zone identifier must be a valid Java time zone name. >>> Fortunately, >>> that list is very long. >>> Java 1.6 supports names like "UTC", "EST", "EST5EDT", "Etc/GMT+5", >>> "Cuba", >>> "America/Montreal", "Europe/Amsterdam" etc. >>> A bit of googling might help. I found a Java applet that displays >>> the list >>> at http://mindprod.com/applet/tz.html, >>> but you must have Java 1.6 installed. >>> >>> Suffix: >>> save.filename.suffix=Me >>> The suffix is appended to the base file name (before extension), >>> separated >>> by an underscore, which is added automatically. >>> >>> A file name created by the above settings could be >>> 1830_20091121_1825_Me.rails >>> >>> For some reason that currently escapes me, a file can be >> saved only >>> after at >>> least one move has been done. >>> I suppose that is not too much of a limitation... >>> >>> Erik. >>> >>> >>> --- >>> --- >>> --- >>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal >> Reports 2008 >>> 30-Day >>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and >> deployment - and >>> focus on >>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with >>> Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rails-devel mailing list >>> Rai...@li... >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---------------- >> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal >> Reports 2008 30-Day >> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and >> deployment - and focus on >> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with >> Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july >> _______________________________________________ >> Rails-devel mailing list >> Rai...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 > 30-Day > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and > focus on > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel |
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From: Erik V. <eri...@hc...> - 2009-11-23 22:33:03
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Next player is the player to do the next move, including Done. For Rails, this IS the current player. Adding the previous player (who did the last move) sounds like a feasible idea, although it is currently not kept anywhere. To do that consistently will need some work. In the middle of a turn both names would be identical. I'll keep this idea in my mind. But first there are somne new and tricky bugs to fix. Erik. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Black [mailto:jim...@ya...] > Sent: Monday 23 November 2009 22:09 > To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game > Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Save file names > > > Yes, the special value NEXT_PLAYER will do that. > > save.filename.suffix=NEXT_PLAYER > > > One aside on this current/next player for save files- ail's > notion of > current/next player is a little awkward for this, with pbem game, > because it strongly depends on whether a player has hit > 'Done' yet, or > not. > > Once a players hits 'Done', current-player becomes next-player, next- > player becomes the-guy-after-that, etc. > > If we were using this for save file names and > token/next-player names, > we'd have to be pretty disciplined about who presses "Done". > > But, along these lines- I know it's an odd idea, but is there > any way > to set the default so that it adds suffixes for BOTH current-player > (well, more literally- the one who just moved), and, next-player > (again more literally, the one who should move right-now) ? > > I'm thinking this might be the ideal way to have our cake and eat-it- > too- Tom Dick and Harry were playing 18AL, I might imagine a folder > listing like this: > > 1870_T000001_Tom_Dick > 1870_T000002_Dick_Harry > 1870_T000001_Harry_Tom > 1870_T000001_Tom_Harry > 1870_T000001_Harry_Tom > 1870_T000001_Dick_Harry > > > etc. The name on the left is the person saving the complete > move- the > name on the right is the current/next player, who needs to pick that > up and move next. this would be convenient, because it would > be easy > to BOTH (a) find a specific player's previous moves, (b) see who's > move it is next, with Rails help. > > Sorry to be longwinded, just thought I'd mention it. > > Thanks again for all the hard work on rails and this release- > all the > quick bug fixes, convenient options, etc. It's great. > > - jim > > > |
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From: Jim B. <jim...@ya...> - 2009-11-23 22:45:51
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On Nov 23, 2009, at 2:32 PM, Erik Vos wrote: > Next player is the player to do the next move, including Done. > For Rails, this IS the current player. Right... but in pbem, most of the time people hit 'done' before they actually save the move file- so, the current-player has already advanced in rails. (Of course- lots of the time, they don't- and the current-player is the player that's just finishing, after all. ;) It's hard to expect any consistency.) > I'll keep this idea in my mind. But first there are somne > new and tricky bugs to fix. Very understood. While you're pondering this in the background, here's some food for thought- just thinking 'outside the box'- What a pbem player would want, I think, is a single "Commit" button- instead of separate "Done" and "Save" functions. When selecting "commit", the move would be saved- tagged with both current /and/ next player, and then the current-player would be advanced (within the session) This would combine the 'done' and 'save' and 'who's next?' functions into one atomic action/button. As I said, just some food for thought. best, - jim |
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From: Erik V. <eri...@hc...> - 2009-11-23 23:00:32
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> While you're pondering this in the background, here's some food for > thought- just thinking 'outside the box'- > > What a pbem player would want, I think, is a single "Commit" button- > instead of separate "Done" and "Save" functions. > > When selecting "commit", the move would be saved- tagged with both > current /and/ next player, and then the current-player would be > advanced (within the session) This would combine the 'done' and > 'save' and 'who's next?' functions into one atomic action/button. Please note, that Done is not always the end of a player's turn. It can mean just the end of a certain type of action, like buying trains. In many games (1851, 1856, 18EU to name a few) that does not end the turn. I wonder what users think about the clarity on the indication whose turn it is. I have the feeling that just highlighting the player or company name isn't clear enough, but I don't have a good idea in what way that could be improved. Popups are impopular, so that is a no-no. Erik. |
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From: brett l. <wak...@gm...> - 2009-11-23 23:53:54
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On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote: >> While you're pondering this in the background, here's some food for >> thought- just thinking 'outside the box'- >> >> What a pbem player would want, I think, is a single "Commit" button- >> instead of separate "Done" and "Save" functions. >> >> When selecting "commit", the move would be saved- tagged with both >> current /and/ next player, and then the current-player would be >> advanced (within the session) This would combine the 'done' and >> 'save' and 'who's next?' functions into one atomic action/button. > > Please note, that Done is not always the end of a player's turn. > It can mean just the end of a certain type of action, like buying trains. > In many games (1851, 1856, 18EU to name a few) that does not end the turn. > > I wonder what users think about the clarity on the indication whose > turn it is. I have the feeling that just highlighting the player or > company name isn't clear enough, but I don't have a good idea in what way > that could be improved. Popups are impopular, so that is a no-no. > > Erik. > > I think what the solution may need to be is to have an "end turn" button that shows up in the UI after the user's taken their final action, but before the game advances the state to the next player's turn. Optionally, we could reserve having the 'end turn' button for games that are flagged as being PBEM games. Caveat - I haven't really looked at the code, so I can't be certain how much complexity this would add. I'm mostly just thinking about how we could provide a player aid to signal the difference between "Done = finished with this phase of my turn" and "Done = End my Turn." Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn". Thoughts? ---Brett. |
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From: Chris S. <chr...@gm...> - 2009-11-24 00:39:02
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> Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace > "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn". > Thoughts? I like this model and it certainly has a lot to recommend it. One extension could be having "End Turn" trigger an autosave and perhaps as a later enhancement an email (for pbem) or token updated (for live online play). -- Chris Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. |
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From: Jim B. <jim...@ya...> - 2009-11-24 00:46:08
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>> Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace >> "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn". >> Thoughts? I agree, this model really goes in the right direction. On the one hand, there's a simple action/button to simply 'continue / done / etc', used in a variety of ways - done buying trains, continue after taking a loan or something, or etc. The other button/action is, literally, 'End Turn': it's much more decisive, it marks the spot to archive a completed move, progress turn- order, etc.... - jim On Nov 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Chris Shaffer wrote: >> Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace >> "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn". >> Thoughts? > > I like this model and it certainly has a lot to recommend it. One > extension could be having "End Turn" trigger an autosave and perhaps > as a later enhancement an email (for pbem) or token updated (for live > online play). > > -- > Chris > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 > 30-Day > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and > focus on > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel |
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From: Erik V. <eri...@hc...> - 2009-11-24 22:54:24
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I believe the idea was to *replace* Done by End Turn in specific cases. Some thoughts: 1. This requires the game engine to "foresee" that a Done action will end the turn *before* updating the UI, rather than that it "discovers" the turn being finished *after* Done is pressed, as is currently the case. In many cases this will be easy, but it gets tricky in games where the last OR step is not always executed. Examples are 1851 and 18EU, where companies may execute their last OR step (trading shares) only from their second OR. And 18EU minors always skip that step. So it could mean creating separate end-of-turn checks in multiple places. 2. It can only be done if there is a Done button to start with. That is not the case in start rounds, where 'End Turn' is implicit in all player actions. Not having a separate End Turn there means introducing some inconsistency in applying this idea. None of these thoughts mean that it is not feasible, but only that we cannot assume that it is easy to do in a consistent way. Erik. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Black [mailto:jim...@ya...] > Sent: Tuesday 24 November 2009 01:46 > To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game > Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Save file names > > >> Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace > >> "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn". > >> Thoughts? > > > I agree, this model really goes in the right direction. > > On the one hand, there's a simple action/button to simply > 'continue / > done / etc', used in a variety of ways - done buying trains, > continue > after taking a loan or something, or etc. > > The other button/action is, literally, 'End Turn': it's much more > decisive, it marks the spot to archive a completed move, > progress turn- > order, etc.... > > - jim > > > On Nov 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Chris Shaffer wrote: > > >> Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace > >> "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn". > >> Thoughts? > > > > I like this model and it certainly has a lot to recommend it. One > > extension could be having "End Turn" trigger an autosave and perhaps > > as a later enhancement an email (for pbem) or token updated > (for live > > online play). > > > > -- > > Chris > > > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------- > > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal > Reports 2008 > > 30-Day > > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and > deployment - and > > focus on > > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails-devel mailing list > > Rai...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------- > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal > Reports 2008 30-Day > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and > deployment - and focus on > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel |
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From: Jim B. <jim...@ya...> - 2009-11-24 23:46:46
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Ideally, I think- Rails wouldn't 'foresee' anything- it would just give the user an explicit action/button/etc that means "this whole turn is now complete". This would only be /after/ everything else was "Done", presumably (or, by implication). Until that was pressed- the turn is not finished, current-player does not advance, simple "undo" will reverse within this session, etc. Then, as you hint below, there might be a specific "End Turn" button/ action that would explicitly finish that turn, completely (and, possibly save the game file, update the current player to the next player/railroad, etc). I guess whatever 'Done' is doing now, it would presumably need to keep doing- because, as you said, it's not the same as "End Turn". In summary- from a pbem perspective, the "done with this action" and "end this whole turn" actions seem quite distinct (even orthogonal) - different fundamental meaning, different user intent, etc. This is just how I think about it, as we discuss it- I dunno what rails is doing under-the-hood, what would be easiest, etc. cheers, - jim On Nov 24, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Erik Vos wrote: > I believe the idea was to *replace* Done by End Turn in specific > cases. > > Some thoughts: > > 1. This requires the game engine to "foresee" that a Done action will > end the turn *before* updating the UI, rather than that it "discovers" > the turn being finished *after* Done is pressed, as is currently the > case. > > In many cases this will be easy, but it gets tricky in games where > the last > OR step is not always executed. Examples are 1851 and 18EU, where > companies may execute their last OR step (trading shares) only from > their second OR. And 18EU minors always skip that step. > > So it could mean creating separate end-of-turn checks in multiple > places. > > 2. It can only be done if there is a Done button to start with. > That is not the case in start rounds, where 'End Turn' is implicit > in all player actions. Not having a separate End Turn there means > introducing some inconsistency in applying this idea. > > > None of these thoughts mean that it is not feasible, but only that > we cannot assume that it is easy to do in a consistent way. > > Erik. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jim Black [mailto:jim...@ya...] >> Sent: Tuesday 24 November 2009 01:46 >> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game >> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Save file names >> >>>> Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace >>>> "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn". >>>> Thoughts? >> >> >> I agree, this model really goes in the right direction. >> >> On the one hand, there's a simple action/button to simply >> 'continue / >> done / etc', used in a variety of ways - done buying trains, >> continue >> after taking a loan or something, or etc. >> >> The other button/action is, literally, 'End Turn': it's much more >> decisive, it marks the spot to archive a completed move, >> progress turn- >> order, etc.... >> >> - jim >> >> >> On Nov 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Chris Shaffer wrote: >> >>>> Perhaps, as I think about it, the only thing we need is to replace >>>> "Done" with two distinct strings: "End Phase" and "End Turn". >>>> Thoughts? >>> >>> I like this model and it certainly has a lot to recommend it. One >>> extension could be having "End Turn" trigger an autosave and perhaps >>> as a later enhancement an email (for pbem) or token updated >> (for live >>> online play). >>> >>> -- >>> Chris >>> >>> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. >>> >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---------------- >>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal >> Reports 2008 >>> 30-Day >>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and >> deployment - and >>> focus on >>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with >>> Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rails-devel mailing list >>> Rai...@li... >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---------------- >> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal >> Reports 2008 30-Day >> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and >> deployment - and focus on >> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with >> Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july >> _______________________________________________ >> Rails-devel mailing list >> Rai...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 > 30-Day > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and > focus on > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with > Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel |
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