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From: Bill S. <bsk...@ho...> - 2006-07-01 20:11:04
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>Being that few people have expressed more than passing interest, we >are the only "customers" that we really need to worry about pleasing >at this point. Don't underestimate the amount of interest in what you are accomplishing here. I am a longtime lurker (wishing I had the skills to contribute) and am much impressed by what you've gotten done in Version 1.0 (I've not gotten time to run a game all the way through but so far... wow!). I would say one thing that is needed (at least something I couldn't find) is an "undo" feature. Ideally this would be both buffered (undo the last n actions in order, once per click) as well as some kind of manual correction mode but the latter could probably be forgone. I'd also like to throw in a shameless plug for my favorite game 18EU but I understand the differences there from 1830 are quite radical and may not make the most sense for the next game. In any case.... great work! Thanks Bill |
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From: brett l. <wak...@gm...> - 2006-07-01 20:35:28
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On 7/1/06, Bill Skulley <bsk...@ho...> wrote: > >Being that few people have expressed more than passing interest, we > >are the only "customers" that we really need to worry about pleasing > >at this point. > > Don't underestimate the amount of interest in what you are accomplishing > here. I am a longtime lurker (wishing I had the skills to contribute) and > am much impressed by what you've gotten done in Version 1.0 (I've not gotten > time to run a game all the way through but so far... wow!). > You already have plenty of skills if you're interested in contributing. We need much more than just coders. There are things like writing documentation, or even simply playtesting and reporting any bugs you may find. Anyone can do these without any technical ability. I definitely didn't mean to imply that there wasn't anyone else interested, but simply that only a small few have been at all vocal about where they'd like to see this project going. Despite being project leader and guiding the project, I'm definitely interested in hearing what others have to say, especially about how we prioritize certain features. > I would say one thing that is needed (at least something I couldn't find) is > an "undo" feature. Ideally this would be both buffered (undo the last n > actions in order, once per click) as well as some kind of manual correction > mode but the latter could probably be forgone. I'd also like to throw in a > shameless plug for my favorite game 18EU but I understand the differences > there from 1830 are quite radical and may not make the most sense for the > next game. Excellent ideas. I know 18EU has been extremely popular, so it certainly makes sense to include it sooner rather than later. I've only played it once, so I'm not familiar enough with how different it is to those that I have played more frequently. > In any case.... great work! > Thanks! ---Brett |
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From: John A. T. <ja...@ja...> - 2006-07-01 20:54:11
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brett lentz wrote: >>I would say one thing that is needed (at least something I couldn't find) is >>an "undo" feature. Ideally this would be both buffered (undo the last n >>actions in order, once per click) as well as some kind of manual correction >>mode but the latter could probably be forgone. I'd also like to throw in a >>shameless plug for my favorite game 18EU but I understand the differences >>there from 1830 are quite radical and may not make the most sense for the >>next game. >> >> If the undo log replay is chosen for game save/restore, it is unlikely arbitrary edits would be allowed. However, I don't think that should be a big deal as the idea is that the code would exactly support the rules of the game, so there shouldn't be a need to make arbitrary changes. >Excellent ideas. I know 18EU has been extremely popular, so it >certainly makes sense to include it sooner rather than later. I've >only played it once, so I'm not familiar enough with how different it >is to those that I have played more frequently. > > The rules are available at http://www.deepthoughtgames.com/games/18EU/ but here is a summary of differences: * There are no privates, but instead 15 minors. The auction is a bit unusual, but after that they operate as normal corporations except for a different train limit, inability to lay green tiles, and they always split 50/50 with the owner (there are no shares). * You can't start a corporation normally until the first 5. Before then, you have to exchange a minor to start a new company, and you can exchange multiple minors for shares. The company gets the assets of any minors traded in, which means they can avoid going backward the first time (usually). You can choose any corporation available to start, and as it gets the tokens of the minors traded in that determines where it starts. * There are Pullman trains which can be bought, but can't run separately from another train. Instead, they increase the value of another train's run. * There are red-to-red bonuses. -- John A. Tamplin ja...@ja... 770/436-5387 HOME 4116 Manson Ave Smyrna, GA 30082-3723 |
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From: Erik V. <eri...@hc...> - 2006-07-01 22:22:40
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> >Excellent ideas. I know 18EU has been extremely popular, so it > >certainly makes sense to include it sooner rather than later. I've > >only played it once, so I'm not familiar enough with how different it > >is to those that I have played more frequently. Much of 18EU can already be configured. > > > The rules are available at > http://www.deepthoughtgames.com/games/18EU/ > but here is a summary of differences: > > * There are no privates, but instead 15 minors. The auction is a > bit unusual, but after that they operate as normal corporations > except for a different train limit, inability to lay > green tiles, > and they always split 50/50 with the owner (there are > no shares). Such minors can already be configured, and work. A new StartRound subclass should be developed to handle the auction. > * You can't start a corporation normally until the first > 5. Before > then, you have to exchange a minor to start a new > company, and you > can exchange multiple minors for shares. The company gets the > assets of any minors traded in, which means they can avoid going > backward the first time (usually). You can choose any > corporation > available to start, and as it gets the tokens of the > minors traded > in that determines where it starts. No exchange/merger mechanisms exist yet. That would be a major addition. > * There are Pullman trains which can be bought, but can't run > separately from another train. Instead, they increase the value > of another train's run. No big deal. > * There are red-to-red bonuses. We don't have route calculation yet, so this should be done by hand anyway. If we agree that at least a partial 18EU implementation would be nice to have, I'll be happy to start working on it. Don't hold your breath for the minor conversion, though. Erik. |
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From: John A. T. <ja...@ja...> - 2006-07-01 22:39:14
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Erik Vos wrote:
>Much of 18EU can already be configured.
>
>
I forgot to mention the buying/selling of stock, as that is fairly
common in 18xx games besides 1830. The initial offering is held in the
company's treasury and pays dividends to the company. It may buy or
sell its own stock during the OR, and stock in the pool doesn't pay
dividends. There are some restrictions on selling stock as well.
>Such minors can already be configured, and work.
>
>
Where do you configure inability to lay green track?
>If we agree that at least a partial 18EU implementation would be nice to
>have,
>I'll be happy to start working on it. Don't hold your breath for the
>minor conversion, though.
>
>
Other than getting some work done for the future, I am not sure how much
value there is an an implementation of 18EU that doesn't allow minor
conversion as that is the primary mechanism of the game. I think it
would be better to implement other games completely that can be done
rather than spend time on a partial job, that may be wasted anyway once
we get around to finishing it if the other parts change in the meantime.
--
John A. Tamplin ja...@ja...
770/436-5387 HOME 4116 Manson Ave
Smyrna, GA 30082-3723
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From: Erik V. <eri...@hc...> - 2006-07-01 22:45:30
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> >Much of 18EU can already be configured. > > > > > I forgot to mention the buying/selling of stock, as that is fairly > common in 18xx games besides 1830. The initial offering is > held in the > company's treasury and pays dividends to the company. It may buy or > sell its own stock during the OR, and stock in the pool doesn't pay > dividends. There are some restrictions on selling stock as well. > > >Such minors can already be configured, and work. > > > > > Where do you configure inability to lay green track? That is not yet configurable. > >If we agree that at least a partial 18EU implementation > would be nice to > >have, > >I'll be happy to start working on it. Don't hold your breath for the > >minor conversion, though. > > > > > Other than getting some work done for the future, I am not > sure how much > value there is an an implementation of 18EU that doesn't allow minor > conversion as that is the primary mechanism of the game. I think it > would be better to implement other games completely that can be done > rather than spend time on a partial job, that may be wasted > anyway once > we get around to finishing it if the other parts change in > the meantime. This is my main concern about rushing the implementation of many games before the basics (Undo, Save and such) have been done. Erik. |
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From: brett l. <wak...@gm...> - 2006-07-01 23:04:06
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On 7/1/06, Erik Vos <eri...@hc...> wrote: > > Other than getting some work done for the future, I am not > > sure how much > > value there is an an implementation of 18EU that doesn't allow minor > > conversion as that is the primary mechanism of the game. I think it > > would be better to implement other games completely that can be done > > rather than spend time on a partial job, that may be wasted > > anyway once > > we get around to finishing it if the other parts change in > > the meantime. > > This is my main concern about rushing the implementation of many > games before the basics (Undo, Save and such) have been done. > I agree. I think we could do 1870 and maybe even 1856 without too much trouble or worrying about deeper consequences. Let's hold off on 18EU until we can do a complete implementation of the game. Ok, so let's prioritize things like this: 1. Undo - this seems to be the most important and desired feature. 2. 1870 - because it's very close to 1830. Other than the privates and splitting revenue we've already got almost all of the rules differences, so I expect this will be quick to get fully working. 3. Save Games - while this is important, due to the relative ease of playing a full game in a single sitting, I think we can push this off a little bit. ---Brett. |
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From: John A. T. <ja...@ja...> - 2006-07-01 23:43:44
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brett lentz wrote:
>I agree. I think we could do 1870 and maybe even 1856 without too
>much trouble or worrying about deeper consequences.
>
>
If you want games that are closer, there are a number of "1830 on a
different map" games which would require fewer additions than either of
these. 1889, 1899, 18NL, 18KAAS, 18AL, 18GA, 18TN and others would fit
in this category.
>Let's hold off on 18EU until we can do a complete implementation of the game.
>
>Ok, so let's prioritize things like this:
>
>1. Undo - this seems to be the most important and desired feature.
>2. 1870 - because it's very close to 1830. Other than the privates and
>splitting revenue we've already got almost all of the rules
>differences, so I expect this will be quick to get fully working.
>
>
Share price protection (and the resulting order shuffling), redeeming,
and reissuing are all implemented?
>3. Save Games - while this is important, due to the relative ease of
>playing a full game in a single sitting, I think we can push this off
>a little bit.
>
>
I would say route calculation should probably go before this, although
depending on how #1 is done this may come almost for free.
--
John A. Tamplin ja...@ja...
770/436-5387 HOME 4116 Manson Ave
Smyrna, GA 30082-3723
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From: brett l. <wak...@gm...> - 2006-07-02 01:51:38
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On 7/1/06, John A. Tamplin <ja...@ja...> wrote: > brett lentz wrote: > > >I agree. I think we could do 1870 and maybe even 1856 without too > >much trouble or worrying about deeper consequences. > > > > > If you want games that are closer, there are a number of "1830 on a > different map" games which would require fewer additions than either of > these. 1889, 1899, 18NL, 18KAAS, 18AL, 18GA, 18TN and others would fit > in this category. > All those will work. Do you have time to work on the XML data for those? > >Let's hold off on 18EU until we can do a complete implementation of the game. > > > >Ok, so let's prioritize things like this: > > > >1. Undo - this seems to be the most important and desired feature. > >2. 1870 - because it's very close to 1830. Other than the privates and > >splitting revenue we've already got almost all of the rules > >differences, so I expect this will be quick to get fully working. > > > > > Share price protection (and the resulting order shuffling), redeeming, > and reissuing are all implemented? > Nope, those are the things we'd need to implement. > >3. Save Games - while this is important, due to the relative ease of > >playing a full game in a single sitting, I think we can push this off > >a little bit. > > > > > I would say route calculation should probably go before this, although > depending on how #1 is done this may come almost for free. > We were waiting on route calculation for someone (you?) to port their tile data over. ---Brett. |
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From: John A. T. <ja...@ja...> - 2006-07-02 03:24:36
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brett lentz wrote:
>All those will work. Do you have time to work on the XML data for those?
>
>
I don't own 1899, 18NL, or 18KAAS, but I can do the others. Where are
special abilities for privates defined? What is missing for 18AL, which
is already there?
>We were waiting on route calculation for someone (you?) to port their
>tile data over.
>
>
Perhaps I misunderstood -- when we last discussed that sometime around
last November, it sounded like you didn't want to use the tile database
for route determination but only for drawing, with a comment about the
connectivity bit fields which would be used for route calculation being
too convoluted for use in Rails. If I am remembering incorrectly or you
have changed your mind, there is no reason the API to the tile database
couldn't be nailed down pretty quickly and the route calculation code
written based on that.
I'm sorry I haven't had the time I thought I would, and I am pressed for
time to get 2 more (possibly 3 or 4) games in production in time for
Essen. I wont have time in the next month or so to spend a lot of time
such as finishing up the Java port of the tile rendering code (or then
writing the Swing output device for it), but it wouldn't be hard to
implement the non-drawing parts of the API based on a static XML file
for use in route calculation (or derive it from the information
currently in Tiles.xml which appears to have the connectivity
requirements, other than track that merges before a city [ie, city to A
and city to B share track before it gets to the city and can't be used
by two different trains]).
--
John A. Tamplin ja...@ja...
770/436-5387 HOME 4116 Manson Ave
Smyrna, GA 30082-3723
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From: brett l. <wak...@gm...> - 2006-07-02 06:07:44
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On 7/1/06, John A. Tamplin <ja...@ja...> wrote: > brett lentz wrote: > > >All those will work. Do you have time to work on the XML data for those? > > > > > I don't own 1899, 18NL, or 18KAAS, but I can do the others. Where are > special abilities for privates defined? What is missing for 18AL, which > is already there? > There's not really much documentation outside of reading the source. I can try to work on improving that a bit. I'll need to double check, but I think all the special properties are in a single file. > >We were waiting on route calculation for someone (you?) to port their > >tile data over. > > > > > Perhaps I misunderstood -- when we last discussed that sometime around > last November, it sounded like you didn't want to use the tile database > for route determination but only for drawing, with a comment about the > connectivity bit fields which would be used for route calculation being > too convoluted for use in Rails. If I am remembering incorrectly or you > have changed your mind, there is no reason the API to the tile database > couldn't be nailed down pretty quickly and the route calculation code > written based on that. > I don't really remember the specifics of the discussion, but at this moment I'd be willing to accept as much code as you're willing to contribute. We need both route calculation and to improve the drawing code, so if you can do one or both, I'm happy with that. > I'm sorry I haven't had the time I thought I would, and I am pressed for > time to get 2 more (possibly 3 or 4) games in production in time for > Essen. I wont have time in the next month or so to spend a lot of time > such as finishing up the Java port of the tile rendering code (or then > writing the Swing output device for it), but it wouldn't be hard to > implement the non-drawing parts of the API based on a static XML file > for use in route calculation (or derive it from the information > currently in Tiles.xml which appears to have the connectivity > requirements, other than track that merges before a city [ie, city to A > and city to B share track before it gets to the city and can't be used > by two different trains]). > No worries. The summer time has traditionally been our slow time anyhow. Most of us are out playing in the sun and don't have as much time to dedicate to sitting inside coding. ;-) |
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From: John A. T. <ja...@ja...> - 2006-07-02 13:19:19
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brett lentz wrote:
>I don't really remember the specifics of the discussion, but at this
>moment I'd be willing to accept as much code as you're willing to
>contribute. We need both route calculation and to improve the drawing
>code, so if you can do one or both, I'm happy with that.
>
>
Ok, tomorrow I will write up a TileDatabase interface and see if we can
get agreement on what the API should look like. Then I can use that
interface for the tile drawing code and whoever works on the route
calculation can use the same one.
--
John A. Tamplin ja...@ja...
770/436-5387 HOME 4116 Manson Ave
Smyrna, GA 30082-3723
|
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From: Erik V. <eri...@hc...> - 2006-07-02 15:15:22
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> > >All those will work. Do you have time to work on the XML > data for those? > > > > > > > > I don't own 1899, 18NL, or 18KAAS, but I can do the others. > Where are > > special abilities for privates defined? What is missing > for 18AL, which > > is already there? It is a bit too optimistic to state that 18AL etc. are almost done. For 18AL the following is missing: - Game end at max share price (exists in XML but not coded yet). - Privates providing special tokens (+10, prestige). - Privates allowing cheap train buying. - Historical objectives. - Limitation to buy only one train per OR. 18Kaas is a true 1830 clone, apart from some new tiles, so that one would be easy (making the map being most of the work). If I have time this week, I'll try to make a list of missing features in those games that I have and that are close to 1830. > There's not really much documentation outside of reading the source. I > can try to work on improving that a bit. > > I'll need to double check, but I think all the special properties are > in a single file. Yes, in CompanyManager.xml. But currently only the special abilities that exist in 1830 have been programmed and can be used in other games. I have tried to set up a generic framework for special abilities, but I'm pretty sure that more work is needed here. Erik. |
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From: Erik V. <eri...@hc...> - 2006-07-02 14:30:54
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> I wont have time in the next month or so to spend a > lot of time > such as finishing up the Java port of the tile rendering code > (or then > writing the Swing output device for it), but it wouldn't be hard to > implement the non-drawing parts of the API based on a static XML file > for use in route calculation (or derive it from the information > currently in Tiles.xml which appears to have the connectivity > requirements, other than track that merges before a city [ie, > city to A > and city to B share track before it gets to the city and > can't be used > by two different trains]). As you may remember, Tiles.xml has been derived from an XML dump of Marco Rocci's TileDesigner database (with a number of additional preprinted tiles added by me). Class util.ConvertTilesXML does that conversion (and should be in the jar). In Tiles.xml I had already included connectivity data for later use in route determination etc. (indeed track merging info is missing. I don't remember what my plan was for that part, perhaps I would have added it by hand.) One option may be to keep (perhaps somewhat extend) the Tiles.xml format. Then our current capability to work with TileDesigner would not disappear. I have created the special preprinted tiles (negative numbers) in the TileDesigner both for creating new visual tiles and for updating Tiles.xml. Of course, if you change the format, I can adapt the conversion class mentioned. Erik. |
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From: Akiyoshi N. <aki...@ni...> - 2006-07-02 15:37:44
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Hello, > Here is some wishes and comments. One more wish. 9. List of available tiles Akiyoshi NOMURA mailto:aki...@ni... |
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From: Akiyoshi N. <aki...@ni...> - 2006-07-02 14:04:00
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Hello, Congrates on initial release of Rails! It is great! I wish it will be the best online 18xx tool in near future, which is better than VASSAL/v18xx in every aspect. Here is some wishes and comments. > 1. Undo - this seems to be the most important and desired feature. > 2. 1870 - because it's very close to 1830. Other than the privates and > splitting revenue we've already got almost all of the rules > differences, so I expect this will be quick to get fully working. > 3. Save Games - while this is important, due to the relative ease of > playing a full game in a single sitting, I think we can push this off > a little bit. 4. Secret/Public bank/treasury/player money Bank/Treasury/Player money is secret in some 18xx, and is public in others. I wish secrecy of money is supported as rules say, but it should be selectable before game starts acording to players' preference. 5. Built-in Chat with log 6. Online game For online synchronized game. 7. Web game For online asynchronized game. Server keeps game data, and players log in asynchronously to play his/her turn. 8. Map scaling Apart from wish lists, thers seems to be a bug on stock chart/moderator. Current market value is showed in moderator in "Price(Place)" format. Place is showed in Alpha-Numeric. Number is greater than it should be by one. On stock chart, new company's CMV marker is placed over existing company's CMV marker. I guess it is not a bug, but contradicts to what we do in real games. Akiyoshi NOMURA mailto:aki...@ni... |
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From: Erik V. <eri...@hc...> - 2006-07-02 17:00:41
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> Congrates on initial release of Rails! It is great! Thanks. > I wish it will be the best online 18xx tool in near future, > which is better > than VASSAL/v18xx in every aspect. That is certainly our goal. But if the team remains as small as it is now, that future may turn out a bit less 'near' than we would like, at least for the 'on-line' aspect. > Here is some wishes and comments. > > > 1. Undo - this seems to be the most important and desired feature. > > 2. 1870 - because it's very close to 1830. Other than the > privates and > > splitting revenue we've already got almost all of the rules > > differences, so I expect this will be quick to get fully working. > > 3. Save Games - while this is important, due to the relative ease of > > playing a full game in a single sitting, I think we can > push this off > > a little bit. > > 4. Secret/Public bank/treasury/player money > Bank/Treasury/Player money is secret in some 18xx, and is public in > others. I wish secrecy of money is supported as rules say, > but it should > be selectable before game starts acording to players' preference. > > 5. Built-in Chat with log > > 6. Online game > For online synchronized game. > > 7. Web game > For online asynchronized game. Server keeps game data, and players > log in asynchronously to play his/her turn. > > 8. Map scaling All good points, and most of these are on our wish list from the start of the project (16 months ago, to give you an idea about our time scale so far....) > Apart from wish lists, thers seems to be a bug on stock > chart/moderator. > Current market value is showed in moderator in "Price(Place)" > format. > Place is showed in Alpha-Numeric. Number is greater than it > should be > by one. You're right. Will be fixed. > On stock chart, new company's CMV marker is placed over existing > company's CMV marker. I guess it is not a bug, but > contradicts to what > we do in real games. I suppose we can reverse the order pretty easily. Thanks for your comments. Erik. |
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