From: John D. G. <jd...@di...> - 2010-09-11 01:33:51
|
Comments on Rails 1.4, tested with a four player game of 18EU 2010-09-09 General comments: * In the "select game" dialog box, changing to a different game should not cause all players to be set back to "none" and the names blanked. * The map should show "Y", where needed, on unbuilt city hexes. This is a major annoyance during the start round, because it affects both the city's revenue and the possible shapes of the yellow tile, so not seeing it makes it hard to predict the values of minors. (Yes, I know, I can find this out by mousing-over each one, but that is annoying.) * The map also ought to show the values of red areas. (I would treat each one as a "tile" with a negative number that gets upgraded by phase changes.) * Entering a comment before the first action in the game should be allowed. * Entering two comments in a row should append, not replace. * It would be nice if the Game Status window had a column showing each player's total income in the last round. This would act as a reminder that the player who is falling furthest behind had better DO SOMETHING! (and conversely, that the player who is making the most money should probably not change the status quo, by buying lots of trains or starting new companies). * It would be nice if the program could remember (or let you save in a config file) the locations of every window, so you don't have to move them manual every time you start a game (and often afterward too). I always use these settings. Stock market: upper left corner of screen "Game Status" tabulation/stock round input: lower left corner of screen Map/operating round input: upper right corner of screen (and don't allow the height to self-adjust so it's taller than the screen height minus the Windows menu bar -- it now does so at the start of every OR until there are too few companies to cause it (in my case, 10 companies). The map also moves so it extends about an inch to the right of the screen, every time.) History/comment window: lower right corner All of the above apply to all games, except that I believe the 1830 and 1835 maps do show you where the lettered tiles go. Due credit: 18EU does show the two "B-V" hexes. Start round: * It would be nice to have alternate starts available, such as any combination of: $400 each to start; all starting prices reduced to $50; bidding round order 1,2,3,4,4,3,2,1,1,2,3,4,4,3,2. * "Unlimited tiles" should not be an all-or-nothing setting: there should be a setting to make only #7, #8, and #9 unlimited (this is what the rules say to do in 18EU, 1826, and 1853v2, and probably many other games). * Bids (above the starting value) look the same as the prices of things you've already bought. Please change this: it makes it nonobvious who already owns more companies than others. * There should be some visual indication of which players can still bid on the current item. * A player is correctly skipped when an item someone else selected for bidding would cost more than he has. But if it's your turn to select an item and you have less than $100, "Bid" ought to be grayed out and isn't. Operating rounds: * The map should show the reserved hexes controlled by certain minors. (I don't expect them to be enforced yet, just shown.) * Please enforce the rule that minors can't lay green tiles. * When no tile lay is legally possible, please skip the tile-lay step. (Which would mean that after the first couple of rounds, most minors' tile- lay step would be skipped, speeding up the game a lot.) * When placing tile #581 (green upgrade) in Berlin and trying it both ways it will go, the tokens that are already there (#9 and KPEV, which I formed from #7) are shown, respectively, along the SE and NW edges, rather than the NE and SW which are the existing connections they must keep. They move to the correct places once I make the tile lay final, but showing them wrong makes it harder to place the tile correctly. * It would be nice if I were allowed to have the program compute runs before I decide what tile to lay. Sometimes a company is so spread out it isn't obvious where its trains are going. (Of course I can always work around this by skipping the tile lay step, then "undo".) * When deciding whether to pay, split, or withhold, it would be nice if the screen showed how much money the company will have after each choice. This isn't always easy to work out in your head, especially if there are some shares paying dividends into the treasury. This goes for all games. * Please get rid of the pop-up "<company> owns no trains, so revenue is $0." Instead, just silently skip the revenue-setting step. * The column that now reports "Pay out", "Withhold", or "Split" for the last turn of each company ought to say "$0 income" (or maybe "No run" or "No train") when that is true, so it doesn't look like the owner chose to withhold. * A company's train-buying step is correctly skipped if it has no room for another train, but it should also be skipped (that is, "Buy Train" should be grayed out) if the company has $0 and at least one train. Similarly, if a company spends its last dollar on a train (including forced purchases), its train-buying step should immediately end. (I believe this goes for all games -- or does anyone on this list really think that any game exists in which a train "purchase" from another company for $0 is allowed? But even if you do, it's explicitly banned in 18EU.) * When it's impossible for the company to buy or sell any treasury shares, the TRADING TREASURY SHARES step should be skipped. (I'm mostly thinking of the situation when all shares of the company are owned by players, but it also applies if the company has no shares in treasury and has too little cash to buy one from the bank pool, or there are 5 shares in the bank pool and the company has too little cash to buy one.) Because of the change of focus, this is a major waste of time, especially in the late game when the only shares not owned by players are those of companies that were never started. * Buying and selling treasury stock works correctly, except one minor detail: when I mouse-over the "treasury shares" column, the tooltip says "click to select for buying" (even though it would be selling). Stock rounds: * When floating a new company, if I buy until I have 60% and then merge in another minor company (to get more than 60% until the next stock round, which is specifically allowed in the rules) the exchange occurs but the "Done" button stays grayed out, making it impossible to continue the game without Undoing the exchange. * If I start a company (purchase the president's share) and then Undo the act of forming it, the status window continues to show the company with the share price I set. * When I buy shares from a company's treasury, the amount of money in that treasury is usually not updated right away. Ending: * Please get rid of BOTH pop-ups saying the bank has broken. Instead, just change the space on the Game Status window where the amount of money in the bank is normally shown to say "BROKEN", maybe in bright colors. * The repeated pop-ups that "count down" to the winning player are even more annoying. |
From: Chris S. <chr...@gm...> - 2010-09-11 01:52:08
|
Great suggestions, all of them. -- Chris Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 7:31 PM, John David Galt < jd...@di...> wrote: > Comments on Rails 1.4, tested with a four player game of 18EU 2010-09-09 > > General comments: > > * In the "select game" dialog box, changing to a different game should not > cause all players to be set back to "none" and the names blanked. > > * The map should show "Y", where needed, on unbuilt city hexes. This is a > major annoyance during the start round, because it affects both the city's > revenue and the possible shapes of the yellow tile, so not seeing it makes > it hard to predict the values of minors. (Yes, I know, I can find this out > by mousing-over each one, but that is annoying.) > > * The map also ought to show the values of red areas. (I would treat each > one as a "tile" with a negative number that gets upgraded by phase > changes.) > > * Entering a comment before the first action in the game should be > allowed. > > * Entering two comments in a row should append, not replace. > > * It would be nice if the Game Status window had a column showing each > player's total income in the last round. This would act as a reminder that > the player who is falling furthest behind had better DO SOMETHING! (and > conversely, that the player who is making the most money should probably > not > change the status quo, by buying lots of trains or starting new companies). > > * It would be nice if the program could remember (or let you save in a > config file) the locations of every window, so you don't have to move them > manual every time you start a game (and often afterward too). I always use > these settings. > Stock market: upper left corner of screen > "Game Status" tabulation/stock round input: lower left corner of screen > Map/operating round input: upper right corner of screen (and don't allow > the height to self-adjust so it's taller than the screen height minus > the Windows menu bar -- it now does so at the start of every OR until > there are too few companies to cause it (in my case, 10 companies). > The map also moves so it extends about an inch to the right of the > screen, every time.) > History/comment window: lower right corner > > All of the above apply to all games, except that I believe the 1830 and > 1835 > maps do show you where the lettered tiles go. Due credit: 18EU does show > the two "B-V" hexes. > > Start round: > > * It would be nice to have alternate starts available, such as any > combination of: > $400 each to start; > all starting prices reduced to $50; > bidding round order 1,2,3,4,4,3,2,1,1,2,3,4,4,3,2. > > * "Unlimited tiles" should not be an all-or-nothing setting: there should > be a setting to make only #7, #8, and #9 unlimited (this is what the rules > say to do in 18EU, 1826, and 1853v2, and probably many other games). > > * Bids (above the starting value) look the same as the prices of things > you've already bought. Please change this: it makes it nonobvious who > already owns more companies than others. > > * There should be some visual indication of which players can still bid on > the current item. > > * A player is correctly skipped when an item someone else selected for > bidding would cost more than he has. But if it's your turn to select an > item and you have less than $100, "Bid" ought to be grayed out and isn't. > > Operating rounds: > > * The map should show the reserved hexes controlled by certain minors. > (I don't expect them to be enforced yet, just shown.) > > * Please enforce the rule that minors can't lay green tiles. > > * When no tile lay is legally possible, please skip the tile-lay step. > (Which would mean that after the first couple of rounds, most minors' tile- > lay step would be skipped, speeding up the game a lot.) > > * When placing tile #581 (green upgrade) in Berlin and trying it both ways > it will go, the tokens that are already there (#9 and KPEV, which I formed > from #7) are shown, respectively, along the SE and NW edges, rather than > the > NE and SW which are the existing connections they must keep. They move to > the correct places once I make the tile lay final, but showing them wrong > makes it harder to place the tile correctly. > > * It would be nice if I were allowed to have the program compute runs > before I decide what tile to lay. Sometimes a company is so spread out it > isn't obvious where its trains are going. (Of course I can always work > around this by skipping the tile lay step, then "undo".) > > * When deciding whether to pay, split, or withhold, it would be nice if > the screen showed how much money the company will have after each choice. > This isn't always easy to work out in your head, especially if there are > some shares paying dividends into the treasury. This goes for all games. > > * Please get rid of the pop-up "<company> owns no trains, so revenue is > $0." Instead, just silently skip the revenue-setting step. > > * The column that now reports "Pay out", "Withhold", or "Split" for the > last turn of each company ought to say "$0 income" (or maybe "No run" or > "No train") when that is true, so it doesn't look like the owner chose to > withhold. > > * A company's train-buying step is correctly skipped if it has no room for > another train, but it should also be skipped (that is, "Buy Train" should > be grayed out) if the company has $0 and at least one train. Similarly, if > a company spends its last dollar on a train (including forced purchases), > its train-buying step should immediately end. > (I believe this goes for all games -- or does anyone on this list really > think that any game exists in which a train "purchase" from another company > for $0 is allowed? But even if you do, it's explicitly banned in 18EU.) > > * When it's impossible for the company to buy or sell any treasury shares, > the TRADING TREASURY SHARES step should be skipped. (I'm mostly thinking > of the situation when all shares of the company are owned by players, but > it also applies if the company has no shares in treasury and has too little > cash to buy one from the bank pool, or there are 5 shares in the bank pool > and the company has too little cash to buy one.) Because of the change of > focus, this is a major waste of time, especially in the late game when the > only shares not owned by players are those of companies that were never > started. > > * Buying and selling treasury stock works correctly, except one minor > detail: when I mouse-over the "treasury shares" column, the tooltip says > "click to select for buying" (even though it would be selling). > > Stock rounds: > > * When floating a new company, if I buy until I have 60% and then merge in > another minor company (to get more than 60% until the next stock round, > which is specifically allowed in the rules) the exchange occurs but the > "Done" button stays grayed out, making it impossible to continue the game > without Undoing the exchange. > > * If I start a company (purchase the president's share) and then Undo the > act of forming it, the status window continues to show the company with the > share price I set. > > * When I buy shares from a company's treasury, the amount of money in that > treasury is usually not updated right away. > > Ending: > > * Please get rid of BOTH pop-ups saying the bank has broken. Instead, > just change the space on the Game Status window where the amount of money > in the bank is normally shown to say "BROKEN", maybe in bright colors. > > * The repeated pop-ups that "count down" to the winning player are even > more annoying. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > |
From: brett l. <bre...@gm...> - 2010-09-11 02:49:44
|
Agreed with all suggestions, especially the sentiment of getting rid of modal pop-up dialogs. The general design philosophy since the project started is that modal dialogs are evil and highly user unfriendly. They should be avoided at all costs unless it is critical game-stopping information that players *MUST* respond to before the game can proceed. I'm not sure why or when these were added, but they need to be removed. ---Brett. On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 7:31 PM, John David Galt <jd...@di...> wrote: > Comments on Rails 1.4, tested with a four player game of 18EU 2010-09-09 > > General comments: > > * In the "select game" dialog box, changing to a different game should not > cause all players to be set back to "none" and the names blanked. > > * The map should show "Y", where needed, on unbuilt city hexes. This is a > major annoyance during the start round, because it affects both the city's > revenue and the possible shapes of the yellow tile, so not seeing it makes > it hard to predict the values of minors. (Yes, I know, I can find this out > by mousing-over each one, but that is annoying.) > > * The map also ought to show the values of red areas. (I would treat each > one as a "tile" with a negative number that gets upgraded by phase changes.) > > * Entering a comment before the first action in the game should be allowed. > > * Entering two comments in a row should append, not replace. > > * It would be nice if the Game Status window had a column showing each > player's total income in the last round. This would act as a reminder that > the player who is falling furthest behind had better DO SOMETHING! (and > conversely, that the player who is making the most money should probably not > change the status quo, by buying lots of trains or starting new companies). > > * It would be nice if the program could remember (or let you save in a > config file) the locations of every window, so you don't have to move them > manual every time you start a game (and often afterward too). I always use > these settings. > Stock market: upper left corner of screen > "Game Status" tabulation/stock round input: lower left corner of screen > Map/operating round input: upper right corner of screen (and don't allow > the height to self-adjust so it's taller than the screen height minus > the Windows menu bar -- it now does so at the start of every OR until > there are too few companies to cause it (in my case, 10 companies). > The map also moves so it extends about an inch to the right of the > screen, every time.) > History/comment window: lower right corner > > All of the above apply to all games, except that I believe the 1830 and 1835 > maps do show you where the lettered tiles go. Due credit: 18EU does show > the two "B-V" hexes. > > Start round: > > * It would be nice to have alternate starts available, such as any > combination of: > $400 each to start; > all starting prices reduced to $50; > bidding round order 1,2,3,4,4,3,2,1,1,2,3,4,4,3,2. > > * "Unlimited tiles" should not be an all-or-nothing setting: there should > be a setting to make only #7, #8, and #9 unlimited (this is what the rules > say to do in 18EU, 1826, and 1853v2, and probably many other games). > > * Bids (above the starting value) look the same as the prices of things > you've already bought. Please change this: it makes it nonobvious who > already owns more companies than others. > > * There should be some visual indication of which players can still bid on > the current item. > > * A player is correctly skipped when an item someone else selected for > bidding would cost more than he has. But if it's your turn to select an > item and you have less than $100, "Bid" ought to be grayed out and isn't. > > Operating rounds: > > * The map should show the reserved hexes controlled by certain minors. > (I don't expect them to be enforced yet, just shown.) > > * Please enforce the rule that minors can't lay green tiles. > > * When no tile lay is legally possible, please skip the tile-lay step. > (Which would mean that after the first couple of rounds, most minors' tile- > lay step would be skipped, speeding up the game a lot.) > > * When placing tile #581 (green upgrade) in Berlin and trying it both ways > it will go, the tokens that are already there (#9 and KPEV, which I formed > from #7) are shown, respectively, along the SE and NW edges, rather than the > NE and SW which are the existing connections they must keep. They move to > the correct places once I make the tile lay final, but showing them wrong > makes it harder to place the tile correctly. > > * It would be nice if I were allowed to have the program compute runs > before I decide what tile to lay. Sometimes a company is so spread out it > isn't obvious where its trains are going. (Of course I can always work > around this by skipping the tile lay step, then "undo".) > > * When deciding whether to pay, split, or withhold, it would be nice if > the screen showed how much money the company will have after each choice. > This isn't always easy to work out in your head, especially if there are > some shares paying dividends into the treasury. This goes for all games. > > * Please get rid of the pop-up "<company> owns no trains, so revenue is > $0." Instead, just silently skip the revenue-setting step. > > * The column that now reports "Pay out", "Withhold", or "Split" for the > last turn of each company ought to say "$0 income" (or maybe "No run" or > "No train") when that is true, so it doesn't look like the owner chose to > withhold. > > * A company's train-buying step is correctly skipped if it has no room for > another train, but it should also be skipped (that is, "Buy Train" should > be grayed out) if the company has $0 and at least one train. Similarly, if > a company spends its last dollar on a train (including forced purchases), > its train-buying step should immediately end. > (I believe this goes for all games -- or does anyone on this list really > think that any game exists in which a train "purchase" from another company > for $0 is allowed? But even if you do, it's explicitly banned in 18EU.) > > * When it's impossible for the company to buy or sell any treasury shares, > the TRADING TREASURY SHARES step should be skipped. (I'm mostly thinking > of the situation when all shares of the company are owned by players, but > it also applies if the company has no shares in treasury and has too little > cash to buy one from the bank pool, or there are 5 shares in the bank pool > and the company has too little cash to buy one.) Because of the change of > focus, this is a major waste of time, especially in the late game when the > only shares not owned by players are those of companies that were never > started. > > * Buying and selling treasury stock works correctly, except one minor > detail: when I mouse-over the "treasury shares" column, the tooltip says > "click to select for buying" (even though it would be selling). > > Stock rounds: > > * When floating a new company, if I buy until I have 60% and then merge in > another minor company (to get more than 60% until the next stock round, > which is specifically allowed in the rules) the exchange occurs but the > "Done" button stays grayed out, making it impossible to continue the game > without Undoing the exchange. > > * If I start a company (purchase the president's share) and then Undo the > act of forming it, the status window continues to show the company with the > share price I set. > > * When I buy shares from a company's treasury, the amount of money in that > treasury is usually not updated right away. > > Ending: > > * Please get rid of BOTH pop-ups saying the bank has broken. Instead, > just change the space on the Game Status window where the amount of money > in the bank is normally shown to say "BROKEN", maybe in bright colors. > > * The repeated pop-ups that "count down" to the winning player are even > more annoying. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > |
From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-09-11 18:27:00
|
All good suggestions, and all of these would make nice entries in the Feature Request or Bug Report lists. That would have the added benefit that any discussions can be saved there too. Some comments from my side; some aspects I will have to leave to Stefan. Just one general remark: some ideas sound simple, and in theory anything is possible, but we should keep in mind that there is always a price, however small. Additional complexity, slower speed, or just larger code. We should not make Rails so big that the word "bloated" starts coming to mind. Erik -----Original Message----- From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...] Sent: Saturday 11 September 2010 04:32 To: rai...@li... Subject: [Rails-devel] Rails 1.4 18EU playtest with commentary Comments on Rails 1.4, tested with a four player game of 18EU 2010-09-09 General comments: * In the "select game" dialog box, changing to a different game should not cause all players to be set back to "none" and the names blanked. [EV] Sure. That's a bug to me. * The map should show "Y", where needed, on unbuilt city hexes. This is a major annoyance during the start round, because it affects both the city's revenue and the possible shapes of the yellow tile, so not seeing it makes it hard to predict the values of minors. (Yes, I know, I can find this out by mousing-over each one, but that is annoying.) [EV] I'm a bit surprised that you consider this an annoyance. For me, the hard and fast rule is that all minor start cities are either preprinted yellow or Y cities, and vice versa. But it is easy to create an extra blank Y city tile, so that's on my list. * The map also ought to show the values of red areas. (I would treat each one as a "tile" with a negative number that gets upgraded by phase changes.) [EV] Creating a separate red tile for each possible revenue value sounds like overkill to me. Another idea could be to overprint red tiles with the current revenue value. The problem is that such values will look similar to tile laying cost. Talking about "the map" - I would love it if we would have map images (as SVG files). Then we could show any info we would like. * Entering a comment before the first action in the game should be allowed. * Entering two comments in a row should append, not replace. [EV] I leave these two for Stefan. * It would be nice if the Game Status window had a column showing each player's total income in the last round. This would act as a reminder that the player who is falling furthest behind had better DO SOMETHING! (and conversely, that the player who is making the most money should probably not change the status quo, by buying lots of trains or starting new companies). [EV] Great suggestion. High on my list. * It would be nice if the program could remember (or let you save in a config file) the locations of every window, so you don't have to move them manual every time you start a game (and often afterward too). I always use these settings. Stock market: upper left corner of screen "Game Status" tabulation/stock round input: lower left corner of screen Map/operating round input: upper right corner of screen (and don't allow the height to self-adjust so it's taller than the screen height minus the Windows menu bar -- it now does so at the start of every OR until there are too few companies to cause it (in my case, 10 companies). The map also moves so it extends about an inch to the right of the screen, every time.) History/comment window: lower right corner [EV] I believe Stefan is already considering this one. All of the above apply to all games, except that I believe the 1830 and 1835 maps do show you where the lettered tiles go. Due credit: 18EU does show the two "B-V" hexes. Start round: * It would be nice to have alternate starts available, such as any combination of: $400 each to start; all starting prices reduced to $50; bidding round order 1,2,3,4,4,3,2,1,1,2,3,4,4,3,2. [EV] "such as" - where do the possibilities end? However, your suggestions sound like a sensible subset of the infinite universe of possible alternatives. * "Unlimited tiles" should not be an all-or-nothing setting: there should be a setting to make only #7, #8, and #9 unlimited (this is what the rules say to do in 18EU, 1826, and 1853v2, and probably many other games). [EV] I cannot find this in the 18EU rules. However, it's a common extension, and I agree that it could be a generic option. * Bids (above the starting value) look the same as the prices of things you've already bought. Please change this: it makes it nonobvious who already owns more companies than others. * There should be some visual indication of which players can still bid on the current item. * A player is correctly skipped when an item someone else selected for bidding would cost more than he has. But if it's your turn to select an item and you have less than $100, "Bid" ought to be grayed out and isn't. [EV] Three sensible UI improvements for the start rounds. Operating rounds: * The map should show the reserved hexes controlled by certain minors. (I don't expect them to be enforced yet, just shown.) [EV] Agree. I think there should be a generic configuration option to add any text to any tile. * Please enforce the rule that minors can't lay green tiles. [EV] I'm pretty sure that this worked correctly until recently. Stefan, I think to have been working on the tile laying rules - can you please check? * When no tile lay is legally possible, please skip the tile-lay step. (Which would mean that after the first couple of rounds, most minors' tile- lay step would be skipped, speeding up the game a lot.) [EV] This can only be done if the current disconnect between knowing about legal lays (in the UI only) and the round/step management (in the game engine) has been fixed. Be aware, though, that any additional action skips will make all previous saved files unloadable, insofar these contain pass/done actions that are now skipped. I'm very reluctant to do add or remove such steps, as that will (again) invalidate many of my saved files that I use for testing. * When placing tile #581 (green upgrade) in Berlin and trying it both ways it will go, the tokens that are already there (#9 and KPEV, which I formed from #7) are shown, respectively, along the SE and NW edges, rather than the NE and SW which are the existing connections they must keep. They move to the correct places once I make the tile lay final, but showing them wrong makes it harder to place the tile correctly. [EV] Will look at that. Don't hold your breath - token repositioning on upgrades is one of the most complex processes we now have. * It would be nice if I were allowed to have the program compute runs before I decide what tile to lay. Sometimes a company is so spread out it isn't obvious where its trains are going. (Of course I can always work around this by skipping the tile lay step, then "undo".) [EV] That's again for Stefan, I think. * When deciding whether to pay, split, or withhold, it would be nice if the screen showed how much money the company will have after each choice. This isn't always easy to work out in your head, especially if there are some shares paying dividends into the treasury. This goes for all games. [EV] Where should the screen show that? Below each of these buttons? * Please get rid of the pop-up "<company> owns no trains, so revenue is $0." Instead, just silently skip the revenue-setting step. [EV] Agree. * The column that now reports "Pay out", "Withhold", or "Split" for the last turn of each company ought to say "$0 income" (or maybe "No run" or "No train") when that is true, so it doesn't look like the owner chose to withhold. [EV] A sensible refinement. * A company's train-buying step is correctly skipped if it has no room for another train, but it should also be skipped (that is, "Buy Train" should be grayed out) if the company has $0 and at least one train. Similarly, if a company spends its last dollar on a train (including forced purchases), its train-buying step should immediately end. (I believe this goes for all games -- or does anyone on this list really think that any game exists in which a train "purchase" from another company for $0 is allowed? But even if you do, it's explicitly banned in 18EU.) [EV] Right, but see my above remark on skipping existing actions. * When it's impossible for the company to buy or sell any treasury shares, the TRADING TREASURY SHARES step should be skipped. (I'm mostly thinking of the situation when all shares of the company are owned by players, but it also applies if the company has no shares in treasury and has too little cash to buy one from the bank pool, or there are 5 shares in the bank pool and the company has too little cash to buy one.) Because of the change of focus, this is a major waste of time, especially in the late game when the only shares not owned by players are those of companies that were never started. [EV] Yes, that makes sense, but see above. * Buying and selling treasury stock works correctly, except one minor detail: when I mouse-over the "treasury shares" column, the tooltip says "click to select for buying" (even though it would be selling). [EV] OK. Stock rounds: * When floating a new company, if I buy until I have 60% and then merge in another minor company (to get more than 60% until the next stock round, which is specifically allowed in the rules) the exchange occurs but the "Done" button stays grayed out, making it impossible to continue the game without Undoing the exchange. [EV] Will look at that bug (if Stefan doesn't beat me) * If I start a company (purchase the president's share) and then Undo the act of forming it, the status window continues to show the company with the share price I set. [EV] Guess we're missing a state variable here. * When I buy shares from a company's treasury, the amount of money in that treasury is usually not updated right away. [EV] OK Ending: * Please get rid of BOTH pop-ups saying the bank has broken. Instead, just change the space on the Game Status window where the amount of money in the bank is normally shown to say "BROKEN", maybe in bright colors. [EV] The former is simple, the latter a bit less so, but I agree. * The repeated pop-ups that "count down" to the winning player are even more annoying. [EV] Fully agree. Luckily I can plead innocence here... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev _______________________________________________ Rails-devel mailing list Rai...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel |
From: Chris S. <chr...@gm...> - 2010-09-12 02:09:07
|
The disadvantage of simply filing bugs and feature requests, of course, is that there is virtually no discussion of them, because they are not seen by 90% of the people on this list. I often file the bug or feature request and also post here, but that's double work. -- Chris Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote: > All good suggestions, and all of these would make nice entries in the > Feature Request or Bug Report lists. That would have the added benefit that > any discussions can be saved there too. > > Some comments from my side; some aspects I will have to leave to Stefan. > > Just one general remark: some ideas sound simple, and in theory anything is > possible, but we should keep in mind that there is always a price, however > small. Additional complexity, slower speed, or just larger code. We should > not make Rails so big that the word "bloated" starts coming to mind. > > Erik > > -----Original Message----- > From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...] > Sent: Saturday 11 September 2010 04:32 > To: rai...@li... > Subject: [Rails-devel] Rails 1.4 18EU playtest with commentary > > Comments on Rails 1.4, tested with a four player game of 18EU 2010-09-09 > > General comments: > > * In the "select game" dialog box, changing to a different game should not > cause all players to be set back to "none" and the names blanked. > > [EV] Sure. That's a bug to me. > > * The map should show "Y", where needed, on unbuilt city hexes. This is a > major annoyance during the start round, because it affects both the city's > revenue and the possible shapes of the yellow tile, so not seeing it makes > it hard to predict the values of minors. (Yes, I know, I can find this out > by mousing-over each one, but that is annoying.) > > [EV] I'm a bit surprised that you consider this an annoyance. For me, the > hard and fast rule is that all minor start cities are either preprinted > yellow or Y cities, and vice versa. But it is easy to create an extra blank > Y city tile, so that's on my list. > > * The map also ought to show the values of red areas. (I would treat each > one as a "tile" with a negative number that gets upgraded by phase > changes.) > > [EV] Creating a separate red tile for each possible revenue value sounds > like overkill to me. Another idea could be to overprint red tiles with the > current revenue value. The problem is that such values will look similar to > tile laying cost. > Talking about "the map" - I would love it if we would have map images (as > SVG files). Then we could show any info we would like. > > * Entering a comment before the first action in the game should be > allowed. > > * Entering two comments in a row should append, not replace. > > [EV] I leave these two for Stefan. > > * It would be nice if the Game Status window had a column showing each > player's total income in the last round. This would act as a reminder that > the player who is falling furthest behind had better DO SOMETHING! (and > conversely, that the player who is making the most money should probably > not > change the status quo, by buying lots of trains or starting new companies). > > [EV] Great suggestion. High on my list. > > * It would be nice if the program could remember (or let you save in a > config file) the locations of every window, so you don't have to move them > manual every time you start a game (and often afterward too). I always use > these settings. > Stock market: upper left corner of screen > "Game Status" tabulation/stock round input: lower left corner of screen > Map/operating round input: upper right corner of screen (and don't allow > the height to self-adjust so it's taller than the screen height minus > the Windows menu bar -- it now does so at the start of every OR until > there are too few companies to cause it (in my case, 10 companies). > The map also moves so it extends about an inch to the right of the > screen, every time.) > History/comment window: lower right corner > > [EV] I believe Stefan is already considering this one. > > All of the above apply to all games, except that I believe the 1830 and > 1835 > maps do show you where the lettered tiles go. Due credit: 18EU does show > the two "B-V" hexes. > > Start round: > > * It would be nice to have alternate starts available, such as any > combination of: > $400 each to start; > all starting prices reduced to $50; > bidding round order 1,2,3,4,4,3,2,1,1,2,3,4,4,3,2. > > [EV] "such as" - where do the possibilities end? However, your suggestions > sound like a sensible subset of the infinite universe of possible > alternatives. > > * "Unlimited tiles" should not be an all-or-nothing setting: there should > be a setting to make only #7, #8, and #9 unlimited (this is what the rules > say to do in 18EU, 1826, and 1853v2, and probably many other games). > > [EV] I cannot find this in the 18EU rules. However, it's a common > extension, > and I agree that it could be a generic option. > > * Bids (above the starting value) look the same as the prices of things > you've already bought. Please change this: it makes it nonobvious who > already owns more companies than others. > > * There should be some visual indication of which players can still bid on > the current item. > > * A player is correctly skipped when an item someone else selected for > bidding would cost more than he has. But if it's your turn to select an > item and you have less than $100, "Bid" ought to be grayed out and isn't. > > [EV] Three sensible UI improvements for the start rounds. > > Operating rounds: > > * The map should show the reserved hexes controlled by certain minors. > (I don't expect them to be enforced yet, just shown.) > > [EV] Agree. I think there should be a generic configuration option to add > any text to any tile. > > * Please enforce the rule that minors can't lay green tiles. > > [EV] I'm pretty sure that this worked correctly until recently. Stefan, I > think to have been working on the tile laying rules - can you please check? > > * When no tile lay is legally possible, please skip the tile-lay step. > (Which would mean that after the first couple of rounds, most minors' tile- > lay step would be skipped, speeding up the game a lot.) > > [EV] This can only be done if the current disconnect between knowing about > legal lays (in the UI only) and the round/step management (in the game > engine) has been fixed. Be aware, though, that any additional action skips > will make all previous saved files unloadable, insofar these contain > pass/done actions that are now skipped. I'm very reluctant to do add or > remove such steps, as that will (again) invalidate many of my saved files > that I use for testing. > > * When placing tile #581 (green upgrade) in Berlin and trying it both ways > it will go, the tokens that are already there (#9 and KPEV, which I formed > from #7) are shown, respectively, along the SE and NW edges, rather than > the > NE and SW which are the existing connections they must keep. They move to > the correct places once I make the tile lay final, but showing them wrong > makes it harder to place the tile correctly. > > [EV] Will look at that. Don't hold your breath - token repositioning on > upgrades is one of the most complex processes we now have. > > * It would be nice if I were allowed to have the program compute runs > before I decide what tile to lay. Sometimes a company is so spread out it > isn't obvious where its trains are going. (Of course I can always work > around this by skipping the tile lay step, then "undo".) > > [EV] That's again for Stefan, I think. > > * When deciding whether to pay, split, or withhold, it would be nice if > the screen showed how much money the company will have after each choice. > This isn't always easy to work out in your head, especially if there are > some shares paying dividends into the treasury. This goes for all games. > > [EV] Where should the screen show that? Below each of these buttons? > > * Please get rid of the pop-up "<company> owns no trains, so revenue is > $0." Instead, just silently skip the revenue-setting step. > > [EV] Agree. > > * The column that now reports "Pay out", "Withhold", or "Split" for the > last turn of each company ought to say "$0 income" (or maybe "No run" or > "No train") when that is true, so it doesn't look like the owner chose to > withhold. > > [EV] A sensible refinement. > > * A company's train-buying step is correctly skipped if it has no room for > another train, but it should also be skipped (that is, "Buy Train" should > be grayed out) if the company has $0 and at least one train. Similarly, if > a company spends its last dollar on a train (including forced purchases), > its train-buying step should immediately end. > (I believe this goes for all games -- or does anyone on this list really > think that any game exists in which a train "purchase" from another company > for $0 is allowed? But even if you do, it's explicitly banned in 18EU.) > > [EV] Right, but see my above remark on skipping existing actions. > > * When it's impossible for the company to buy or sell any treasury shares, > the TRADING TREASURY SHARES step should be skipped. (I'm mostly thinking > of the situation when all shares of the company are owned by players, but > it also applies if the company has no shares in treasury and has too little > cash to buy one from the bank pool, or there are 5 shares in the bank pool > and the company has too little cash to buy one.) Because of the change of > focus, this is a major waste of time, especially in the late game when the > only shares not owned by players are those of companies that were never > started. > > [EV] Yes, that makes sense, but see above. > > * Buying and selling treasury stock works correctly, except one minor > detail: when I mouse-over the "treasury shares" column, the tooltip says > "click to select for buying" (even though it would be selling). > > [EV] OK. > > Stock rounds: > > * When floating a new company, if I buy until I have 60% and then merge in > another minor company (to get more than 60% until the next stock round, > which is specifically allowed in the rules) the exchange occurs but the > "Done" button stays grayed out, making it impossible to continue the game > without Undoing the exchange. > > [EV] Will look at that bug (if Stefan doesn't beat me) > > * If I start a company (purchase the president's share) and then Undo the > act of forming it, the status window continues to show the company with the > share price I set. > > [EV] Guess we're missing a state variable here. > > * When I buy shares from a company's treasury, the amount of money in that > treasury is usually not updated right away. > > [EV] OK > > Ending: > > * Please get rid of BOTH pop-ups saying the bank has broken. Instead, > just change the space on the Game Status window where the amount of money > in the bank is normally shown to say "BROKEN", maybe in bright colors. > > [EV] The former is simple, the latter a bit less so, but I agree. > > * The repeated pop-ups that "count down" to the winning player are even > more annoying. > > [EV] Fully agree. Luckily I can plead innocence here... > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > |
From: brett l. <bre...@gm...> - 2010-09-12 04:46:10
|
What could be done to make the process easier? ---Brett. On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Chris Shaffer <chr...@gm...> wrote: > The disadvantage of simply filing bugs and feature requests, of course, is > that there is virtually no discussion of them, because they are not seen by > 90% of the people on this list. > > I often file the bug or feature request and also post here, but that's > double work. > > -- > Chris > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote: >> >> All good suggestions, and all of these would make nice entries in the >> Feature Request or Bug Report lists. That would have the added benefit >> that >> any discussions can be saved there too. >> >> Some comments from my side; some aspects I will have to leave to Stefan. >> >> Just one general remark: some ideas sound simple, and in theory anything >> is >> possible, but we should keep in mind that there is always a price, however >> small. Additional complexity, slower speed, or just larger code. We should >> not make Rails so big that the word "bloated" starts coming to mind. >> >> Erik >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...] >> Sent: Saturday 11 September 2010 04:32 >> To: rai...@li... >> Subject: [Rails-devel] Rails 1.4 18EU playtest with commentary >> >> Comments on Rails 1.4, tested with a four player game of 18EU 2010-09-09 >> >> General comments: >> >> * In the "select game" dialog box, changing to a different game should >> not >> cause all players to be set back to "none" and the names blanked. >> >> [EV] Sure. That's a bug to me. >> >> * The map should show "Y", where needed, on unbuilt city hexes. This is >> a >> major annoyance during the start round, because it affects both the city's >> revenue and the possible shapes of the yellow tile, so not seeing it makes >> it hard to predict the values of minors. (Yes, I know, I can find this >> out >> by mousing-over each one, but that is annoying.) >> >> [EV] I'm a bit surprised that you consider this an annoyance. For me, the >> hard and fast rule is that all minor start cities are either preprinted >> yellow or Y cities, and vice versa. But it is easy to create an extra >> blank >> Y city tile, so that's on my list. >> >> * The map also ought to show the values of red areas. (I would treat >> each >> one as a "tile" with a negative number that gets upgraded by phase >> changes.) >> >> [EV] Creating a separate red tile for each possible revenue value sounds >> like overkill to me. Another idea could be to overprint red tiles with the >> current revenue value. The problem is that such values will look similar >> to >> tile laying cost. >> Talking about "the map" - I would love it if we would have map images (as >> SVG files). Then we could show any info we would like. >> >> * Entering a comment before the first action in the game should be >> allowed. >> >> * Entering two comments in a row should append, not replace. >> >> [EV] I leave these two for Stefan. >> >> * It would be nice if the Game Status window had a column showing each >> player's total income in the last round. This would act as a reminder >> that >> the player who is falling furthest behind had better DO SOMETHING! (and >> conversely, that the player who is making the most money should probably >> not >> change the status quo, by buying lots of trains or starting new >> companies). >> >> [EV] Great suggestion. High on my list. >> >> * It would be nice if the program could remember (or let you save in a >> config file) the locations of every window, so you don't have to move them >> manual every time you start a game (and often afterward too). I always >> use >> these settings. >> Stock market: upper left corner of screen >> "Game Status" tabulation/stock round input: lower left corner of screen >> Map/operating round input: upper right corner of screen (and don't allow >> the height to self-adjust so it's taller than the screen height >> minus >> the Windows menu bar -- it now does so at the start of every OR >> until >> there are too few companies to cause it (in my case, 10 companies). >> The map also moves so it extends about an inch to the right of the >> screen, every time.) >> History/comment window: lower right corner >> >> [EV] I believe Stefan is already considering this one. >> >> All of the above apply to all games, except that I believe the 1830 and >> 1835 >> maps do show you where the lettered tiles go. Due credit: 18EU does show >> the two "B-V" hexes. >> >> Start round: >> >> * It would be nice to have alternate starts available, such as any >> combination of: >> $400 each to start; >> all starting prices reduced to $50; >> bidding round order 1,2,3,4,4,3,2,1,1,2,3,4,4,3,2. >> >> [EV] "such as" - where do the possibilities end? However, your suggestions >> sound like a sensible subset of the infinite universe of possible >> alternatives. >> >> * "Unlimited tiles" should not be an all-or-nothing setting: there should >> be a setting to make only #7, #8, and #9 unlimited (this is what the rules >> say to do in 18EU, 1826, and 1853v2, and probably many other games). >> >> [EV] I cannot find this in the 18EU rules. However, it's a common >> extension, >> and I agree that it could be a generic option. >> >> * Bids (above the starting value) look the same as the prices of things >> you've already bought. Please change this: it makes it nonobvious who >> already owns more companies than others. >> >> * There should be some visual indication of which players can still bid >> on >> the current item. >> >> * A player is correctly skipped when an item someone else selected for >> bidding would cost more than he has. But if it's your turn to select an >> item and you have less than $100, "Bid" ought to be grayed out and isn't. >> >> [EV] Three sensible UI improvements for the start rounds. >> >> Operating rounds: >> >> * The map should show the reserved hexes controlled by certain minors. >> (I don't expect them to be enforced yet, just shown.) >> >> [EV] Agree. I think there should be a generic configuration option to add >> any text to any tile. >> >> * Please enforce the rule that minors can't lay green tiles. >> >> [EV] I'm pretty sure that this worked correctly until recently. Stefan, I >> think to have been working on the tile laying rules - can you please >> check? >> >> * When no tile lay is legally possible, please skip the tile-lay step. >> (Which would mean that after the first couple of rounds, most minors' >> tile- >> lay step would be skipped, speeding up the game a lot.) >> >> [EV] This can only be done if the current disconnect between knowing about >> legal lays (in the UI only) and the round/step management (in the game >> engine) has been fixed. Be aware, though, that any additional action skips >> will make all previous saved files unloadable, insofar these contain >> pass/done actions that are now skipped. I'm very reluctant to do add or >> remove such steps, as that will (again) invalidate many of my saved files >> that I use for testing. >> >> * When placing tile #581 (green upgrade) in Berlin and trying it both >> ways >> it will go, the tokens that are already there (#9 and KPEV, which I formed >> from #7) are shown, respectively, along the SE and NW edges, rather than >> the >> NE and SW which are the existing connections they must keep. They move to >> the correct places once I make the tile lay final, but showing them wrong >> makes it harder to place the tile correctly. >> >> [EV] Will look at that. Don't hold your breath - token repositioning on >> upgrades is one of the most complex processes we now have. >> >> * It would be nice if I were allowed to have the program compute runs >> before I decide what tile to lay. Sometimes a company is so spread out it >> isn't obvious where its trains are going. (Of course I can always work >> around this by skipping the tile lay step, then "undo".) >> >> [EV] That's again for Stefan, I think. >> >> * When deciding whether to pay, split, or withhold, it would be nice if >> the screen showed how much money the company will have after each choice. >> This isn't always easy to work out in your head, especially if there are >> some shares paying dividends into the treasury. This goes for all games. >> >> [EV] Where should the screen show that? Below each of these buttons? >> >> * Please get rid of the pop-up "<company> owns no trains, so revenue is >> $0." Instead, just silently skip the revenue-setting step. >> >> [EV] Agree. >> >> * The column that now reports "Pay out", "Withhold", or "Split" for the >> last turn of each company ought to say "$0 income" (or maybe "No run" or >> "No train") when that is true, so it doesn't look like the owner chose to >> withhold. >> >> [EV] A sensible refinement. >> >> * A company's train-buying step is correctly skipped if it has no room >> for >> another train, but it should also be skipped (that is, "Buy Train" should >> be grayed out) if the company has $0 and at least one train. Similarly, >> if >> a company spends its last dollar on a train (including forced purchases), >> its train-buying step should immediately end. >> (I believe this goes for all games -- or does anyone on this list really >> think that any game exists in which a train "purchase" from another >> company >> for $0 is allowed? But even if you do, it's explicitly banned in 18EU.) >> >> [EV] Right, but see my above remark on skipping existing actions. >> >> * When it's impossible for the company to buy or sell any treasury >> shares, >> the TRADING TREASURY SHARES step should be skipped. (I'm mostly thinking >> of the situation when all shares of the company are owned by players, but >> it also applies if the company has no shares in treasury and has too >> little >> cash to buy one from the bank pool, or there are 5 shares in the bank pool >> and the company has too little cash to buy one.) Because of the change of >> focus, this is a major waste of time, especially in the late game when the >> only shares not owned by players are those of companies that were never >> started. >> >> [EV] Yes, that makes sense, but see above. >> >> * Buying and selling treasury stock works correctly, except one minor >> detail: when I mouse-over the "treasury shares" column, the tooltip says >> "click to select for buying" (even though it would be selling). >> >> [EV] OK. >> >> Stock rounds: >> >> * When floating a new company, if I buy until I have 60% and then merge >> in >> another minor company (to get more than 60% until the next stock round, >> which is specifically allowed in the rules) the exchange occurs but the >> "Done" button stays grayed out, making it impossible to continue the game >> without Undoing the exchange. >> >> [EV] Will look at that bug (if Stefan doesn't beat me) >> >> * If I start a company (purchase the president's share) and then Undo the >> act of forming it, the status window continues to show the company with >> the >> share price I set. >> >> [EV] Guess we're missing a state variable here. >> >> * When I buy shares from a company's treasury, the amount of money in >> that >> treasury is usually not updated right away. >> >> [EV] OK >> >> Ending: >> >> * Please get rid of BOTH pop-ups saying the bank has broken. Instead, >> just change the space on the Game Status window where the amount of money >> in the bank is normally shown to say "BROKEN", maybe in bright colors. >> >> [EV] The former is simple, the latter a bit less so, but I agree. >> >> * The repeated pop-ups that "count down" to the winning player are even >> more annoying. >> >> [EV] Fully agree. Luckily I can plead innocence here... >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances >> and start using them to simplify application deployment and >> accelerate your shift to cloud computing >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev >> _______________________________________________ >> Rails-devel mailing list >> Rai...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances >> and start using them to simplify application deployment and >> accelerate your shift to cloud computing >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev >> _______________________________________________ >> Rails-devel mailing list >> Rai...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > > |
From: Chris S. <chr...@gm...> - 2010-09-12 05:04:14
|
I'm really not sure. I'd hate to have the tracker auto-post to this list, which I think would be the only solution. Encouraging people to post here if they feel discussion is warranted and also post actual feature requests and bug reports is probably best. -- Chris Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:45 PM, brett lentz <bre...@gm...> wrote: > What could be done to make the process easier? > > ---Brett. > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Chris Shaffer <chr...@gm...> > wrote: > > The disadvantage of simply filing bugs and feature requests, of course, > is > > that there is virtually no discussion of them, because they are not seen > by > > 90% of the people on this list. > > > > I often file the bug or feature request and also post here, but that's > > double work. > > > > -- > > Chris > > > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote: > >> > >> All good suggestions, and all of these would make nice entries in the > >> Feature Request or Bug Report lists. That would have the added benefit > >> that > >> any discussions can be saved there too. > >> > >> Some comments from my side; some aspects I will have to leave to Stefan. > >> > >> Just one general remark: some ideas sound simple, and in theory anything > >> is > >> possible, but we should keep in mind that there is always a price, > however > >> small. Additional complexity, slower speed, or just larger code. We > should > >> not make Rails so big that the word "bloated" starts coming to mind. > >> > >> Erik > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...] > >> Sent: Saturday 11 September 2010 04:32 > >> To: rai...@li... > >> Subject: [Rails-devel] Rails 1.4 18EU playtest with commentary > >> > >> Comments on Rails 1.4, tested with a four player game of 18EU > 2010-09-09 > >> > >> General comments: > >> > >> * In the "select game" dialog box, changing to a different game should > >> not > >> cause all players to be set back to "none" and the names blanked. > >> > >> [EV] Sure. That's a bug to me. > >> > >> * The map should show "Y", where needed, on unbuilt city hexes. This > is > >> a > >> major annoyance during the start round, because it affects both the > city's > >> revenue and the possible shapes of the yellow tile, so not seeing it > makes > >> it hard to predict the values of minors. (Yes, I know, I can find this > >> out > >> by mousing-over each one, but that is annoying.) > >> > >> [EV] I'm a bit surprised that you consider this an annoyance. For me, > the > >> hard and fast rule is that all minor start cities are either preprinted > >> yellow or Y cities, and vice versa. But it is easy to create an extra > >> blank > >> Y city tile, so that's on my list. > >> > >> * The map also ought to show the values of red areas. (I would treat > >> each > >> one as a "tile" with a negative number that gets upgraded by phase > >> changes.) > >> > >> [EV] Creating a separate red tile for each possible revenue value sounds > >> like overkill to me. Another idea could be to overprint red tiles with > the > >> current revenue value. The problem is that such values will look similar > >> to > >> tile laying cost. > >> Talking about "the map" - I would love it if we would have map images > (as > >> SVG files). Then we could show any info we would like. > >> > >> * Entering a comment before the first action in the game should be > >> allowed. > >> > >> * Entering two comments in a row should append, not replace. > >> > >> [EV] I leave these two for Stefan. > >> > >> * It would be nice if the Game Status window had a column showing each > >> player's total income in the last round. This would act as a reminder > >> that > >> the player who is falling furthest behind had better DO SOMETHING! (and > >> conversely, that the player who is making the most money should probably > >> not > >> change the status quo, by buying lots of trains or starting new > >> companies). > >> > >> [EV] Great suggestion. High on my list. > >> > >> * It would be nice if the program could remember (or let you save in a > >> config file) the locations of every window, so you don't have to move > them > >> manual every time you start a game (and often afterward too). I always > >> use > >> these settings. > >> Stock market: upper left corner of screen > >> "Game Status" tabulation/stock round input: lower left corner of > screen > >> Map/operating round input: upper right corner of screen (and don't > allow > >> the height to self-adjust so it's taller than the screen height > >> minus > >> the Windows menu bar -- it now does so at the start of every OR > >> until > >> there are too few companies to cause it (in my case, 10 > companies). > >> The map also moves so it extends about an inch to the right of the > >> screen, every time.) > >> History/comment window: lower right corner > >> > >> [EV] I believe Stefan is already considering this one. > >> > >> All of the above apply to all games, except that I believe the 1830 and > >> 1835 > >> maps do show you where the lettered tiles go. Due credit: 18EU does > show > >> the two "B-V" hexes. > >> > >> Start round: > >> > >> * It would be nice to have alternate starts available, such as any > >> combination of: > >> $400 each to start; > >> all starting prices reduced to $50; > >> bidding round order 1,2,3,4,4,3,2,1,1,2,3,4,4,3,2. > >> > >> [EV] "such as" - where do the possibilities end? However, your > suggestions > >> sound like a sensible subset of the infinite universe of possible > >> alternatives. > >> > >> * "Unlimited tiles" should not be an all-or-nothing setting: there > should > >> be a setting to make only #7, #8, and #9 unlimited (this is what the > rules > >> say to do in 18EU, 1826, and 1853v2, and probably many other games). > >> > >> [EV] I cannot find this in the 18EU rules. However, it's a common > >> extension, > >> and I agree that it could be a generic option. > >> > >> * Bids (above the starting value) look the same as the prices of things > >> you've already bought. Please change this: it makes it nonobvious who > >> already owns more companies than others. > >> > >> * There should be some visual indication of which players can still bid > >> on > >> the current item. > >> > >> * A player is correctly skipped when an item someone else selected for > >> bidding would cost more than he has. But if it's your turn to select an > >> item and you have less than $100, "Bid" ought to be grayed out and > isn't. > >> > >> [EV] Three sensible UI improvements for the start rounds. > >> > >> Operating rounds: > >> > >> * The map should show the reserved hexes controlled by certain minors. > >> (I don't expect them to be enforced yet, just shown.) > >> > >> [EV] Agree. I think there should be a generic configuration option to > add > >> any text to any tile. > >> > >> * Please enforce the rule that minors can't lay green tiles. > >> > >> [EV] I'm pretty sure that this worked correctly until recently. Stefan, > I > >> think to have been working on the tile laying rules - can you please > >> check? > >> > >> * When no tile lay is legally possible, please skip the tile-lay step. > >> (Which would mean that after the first couple of rounds, most minors' > >> tile- > >> lay step would be skipped, speeding up the game a lot.) > >> > >> [EV] This can only be done if the current disconnect between knowing > about > >> legal lays (in the UI only) and the round/step management (in the game > >> engine) has been fixed. Be aware, though, that any additional action > skips > >> will make all previous saved files unloadable, insofar these contain > >> pass/done actions that are now skipped. I'm very reluctant to do add or > >> remove such steps, as that will (again) invalidate many of my saved > files > >> that I use for testing. > >> > >> * When placing tile #581 (green upgrade) in Berlin and trying it both > >> ways > >> it will go, the tokens that are already there (#9 and KPEV, which I > formed > >> from #7) are shown, respectively, along the SE and NW edges, rather than > >> the > >> NE and SW which are the existing connections they must keep. They move > to > >> the correct places once I make the tile lay final, but showing them > wrong > >> makes it harder to place the tile correctly. > >> > >> [EV] Will look at that. Don't hold your breath - token repositioning on > >> upgrades is one of the most complex processes we now have. > >> > >> * It would be nice if I were allowed to have the program compute runs > >> before I decide what tile to lay. Sometimes a company is so spread out > it > >> isn't obvious where its trains are going. (Of course I can always work > >> around this by skipping the tile lay step, then "undo".) > >> > >> [EV] That's again for Stefan, I think. > >> > >> * When deciding whether to pay, split, or withhold, it would be nice if > >> the screen showed how much money the company will have after each > choice. > >> This isn't always easy to work out in your head, especially if there are > >> some shares paying dividends into the treasury. This goes for all > games. > >> > >> [EV] Where should the screen show that? Below each of these buttons? > >> > >> * Please get rid of the pop-up "<company> owns no trains, so revenue is > >> $0." Instead, just silently skip the revenue-setting step. > >> > >> [EV] Agree. > >> > >> * The column that now reports "Pay out", "Withhold", or "Split" for the > >> last turn of each company ought to say "$0 income" (or maybe "No run" or > >> "No train") when that is true, so it doesn't look like the owner chose > to > >> withhold. > >> > >> [EV] A sensible refinement. > >> > >> * A company's train-buying step is correctly skipped if it has no room > >> for > >> another train, but it should also be skipped (that is, "Buy Train" > should > >> be grayed out) if the company has $0 and at least one train. Similarly, > >> if > >> a company spends its last dollar on a train (including forced > purchases), > >> its train-buying step should immediately end. > >> (I believe this goes for all games -- or does anyone on this list really > >> think that any game exists in which a train "purchase" from another > >> company > >> for $0 is allowed? But even if you do, it's explicitly banned in 18EU.) > >> > >> [EV] Right, but see my above remark on skipping existing actions. > >> > >> * When it's impossible for the company to buy or sell any treasury > >> shares, > >> the TRADING TREASURY SHARES step should be skipped. (I'm mostly > thinking > >> of the situation when all shares of the company are owned by players, > but > >> it also applies if the company has no shares in treasury and has too > >> little > >> cash to buy one from the bank pool, or there are 5 shares in the bank > pool > >> and the company has too little cash to buy one.) Because of the change > of > >> focus, this is a major waste of time, especially in the late game when > the > >> only shares not owned by players are those of companies that were never > >> started. > >> > >> [EV] Yes, that makes sense, but see above. > >> > >> * Buying and selling treasury stock works correctly, except one minor > >> detail: when I mouse-over the "treasury shares" column, the tooltip says > >> "click to select for buying" (even though it would be selling). > >> > >> [EV] OK. > >> > >> Stock rounds: > >> > >> * When floating a new company, if I buy until I have 60% and then merge > >> in > >> another minor company (to get more than 60% until the next stock round, > >> which is specifically allowed in the rules) the exchange occurs but the > >> "Done" button stays grayed out, making it impossible to continue the > game > >> without Undoing the exchange. > >> > >> [EV] Will look at that bug (if Stefan doesn't beat me) > >> > >> * If I start a company (purchase the president's share) and then Undo > the > >> act of forming it, the status window continues to show the company with > >> the > >> share price I set. > >> > >> [EV] Guess we're missing a state variable here. > >> > >> * When I buy shares from a company's treasury, the amount of money in > >> that > >> treasury is usually not updated right away. > >> > >> [EV] OK > >> > >> Ending: > >> > >> * Please get rid of BOTH pop-ups saying the bank has broken. Instead, > >> just change the space on the Game Status window where the amount of > money > >> in the bank is normally shown to say "BROKEN", maybe in bright colors. > >> > >> [EV] The former is simple, the latter a bit less so, but I agree. > >> > >> * The repeated pop-ups that "count down" to the winning player are even > >> more annoying. > >> > >> [EV] Fully agree. Luckily I can plead innocence here... > >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> -- > >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > >> and start using them to simplify application deployment and > >> accelerate your shift to cloud computing > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rails-devel mailing list > >> Rai...@li... > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > >> and start using them to simplify application deployment and > >> accelerate your shift to cloud computing > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rails-devel mailing list > >> Rai...@li... > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > > accelerate your shift to cloud computing > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails-devel mailing list > > Rai...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > |
From: Chris S. <chr...@gm...> - 2010-09-13 03:17:57
|
I went ahead and created bug and feature requests for most of these. It's not always clear what should be a bug and what should be a feature request, so most of them are listed as bugs. -- Chris Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 10:04 PM, Chris Shaffer <chr...@gm...>wrote: > I'm really not sure. I'd hate to have the tracker auto-post to this list, > which I think would be the only solution. Encouraging people to post here > if they feel discussion is warranted and also post actual feature requests > and bug reports is probably best. > > > -- > Chris > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:45 PM, brett lentz <bre...@gm...>wrote: > >> What could be done to make the process easier? >> >> ---Brett. >> >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Chris Shaffer <chr...@gm...> >> wrote: >> > The disadvantage of simply filing bugs and feature requests, of course, >> is >> > that there is virtually no discussion of them, because they are not seen >> by >> > 90% of the people on this list. >> > >> > I often file the bug or feature request and also post here, but that's >> > double work. >> > >> > -- >> > Chris >> > >> > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote: >> >> >> >> All good suggestions, and all of these would make nice entries in the >> >> Feature Request or Bug Report lists. That would have the added benefit >> >> that >> >> any discussions can be saved there too. >> >> >> >> Some comments from my side; some aspects I will have to leave to >> Stefan. >> >> >> >> Just one general remark: some ideas sound simple, and in theory >> anything >> >> is >> >> possible, but we should keep in mind that there is always a price, >> however >> >> small. Additional complexity, slower speed, or just larger code. We >> should >> >> not make Rails so big that the word "bloated" starts coming to mind. >> >> >> >> Erik >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...] >> >> Sent: Saturday 11 September 2010 04:32 >> >> To: rai...@li... >> >> Subject: [Rails-devel] Rails 1.4 18EU playtest with commentary >> >> >> >> Comments on Rails 1.4, tested with a four player game of 18EU >> 2010-09-09 >> >> >> >> General comments: >> >> >> >> * In the "select game" dialog box, changing to a different game should >> >> not >> >> cause all players to be set back to "none" and the names blanked. >> >> >> >> [EV] Sure. That's a bug to me. >> >> >> >> * The map should show "Y", where needed, on unbuilt city hexes. This >> is >> >> a >> >> major annoyance during the start round, because it affects both the >> city's >> >> revenue and the possible shapes of the yellow tile, so not seeing it >> makes >> >> it hard to predict the values of minors. (Yes, I know, I can find this >> >> out >> >> by mousing-over each one, but that is annoying.) >> >> >> >> [EV] I'm a bit surprised that you consider this an annoyance. For me, >> the >> >> hard and fast rule is that all minor start cities are either preprinted >> >> yellow or Y cities, and vice versa. But it is easy to create an extra >> >> blank >> >> Y city tile, so that's on my list. >> >> >> >> * The map also ought to show the values of red areas. (I would treat >> >> each >> >> one as a "tile" with a negative number that gets upgraded by phase >> >> changes.) >> >> >> >> [EV] Creating a separate red tile for each possible revenue value >> sounds >> >> like overkill to me. Another idea could be to overprint red tiles with >> the >> >> current revenue value. The problem is that such values will look >> similar >> >> to >> >> tile laying cost. >> >> Talking about "the map" - I would love it if we would have map images >> (as >> >> SVG files). Then we could show any info we would like. >> >> >> >> * Entering a comment before the first action in the game should be >> >> allowed. >> >> >> >> * Entering two comments in a row should append, not replace. >> >> >> >> [EV] I leave these two for Stefan. >> >> >> >> * It would be nice if the Game Status window had a column showing each >> >> player's total income in the last round. This would act as a reminder >> >> that >> >> the player who is falling furthest behind had better DO SOMETHING! (and >> >> conversely, that the player who is making the most money should >> probably >> >> not >> >> change the status quo, by buying lots of trains or starting new >> >> companies). >> >> >> >> [EV] Great suggestion. High on my list. >> >> >> >> * It would be nice if the program could remember (or let you save in a >> >> config file) the locations of every window, so you don't have to move >> them >> >> manual every time you start a game (and often afterward too). I always >> >> use >> >> these settings. >> >> Stock market: upper left corner of screen >> >> "Game Status" tabulation/stock round input: lower left corner of >> screen >> >> Map/operating round input: upper right corner of screen (and don't >> allow >> >> the height to self-adjust so it's taller than the screen height >> >> minus >> >> the Windows menu bar -- it now does so at the start of every OR >> >> until >> >> there are too few companies to cause it (in my case, 10 >> companies). >> >> The map also moves so it extends about an inch to the right of >> the >> >> screen, every time.) >> >> History/comment window: lower right corner >> >> >> >> [EV] I believe Stefan is already considering this one. >> >> >> >> All of the above apply to all games, except that I believe the 1830 and >> >> 1835 >> >> maps do show you where the lettered tiles go. Due credit: 18EU does >> show >> >> the two "B-V" hexes. >> >> >> >> Start round: >> >> >> >> * It would be nice to have alternate starts available, such as any >> >> combination of: >> >> $400 each to start; >> >> all starting prices reduced to $50; >> >> bidding round order 1,2,3,4,4,3,2,1,1,2,3,4,4,3,2. >> >> >> >> [EV] "such as" - where do the possibilities end? However, your >> suggestions >> >> sound like a sensible subset of the infinite universe of possible >> >> alternatives. >> >> >> >> * "Unlimited tiles" should not be an all-or-nothing setting: there >> should >> >> be a setting to make only #7, #8, and #9 unlimited (this is what the >> rules >> >> say to do in 18EU, 1826, and 1853v2, and probably many other games). >> >> >> >> [EV] I cannot find this in the 18EU rules. However, it's a common >> >> extension, >> >> and I agree that it could be a generic option. >> >> >> >> * Bids (above the starting value) look the same as the prices of >> things >> >> you've already bought. Please change this: it makes it nonobvious who >> >> already owns more companies than others. >> >> >> >> * There should be some visual indication of which players can still >> bid >> >> on >> >> the current item. >> >> >> >> * A player is correctly skipped when an item someone else selected for >> >> bidding would cost more than he has. But if it's your turn to select >> an >> >> item and you have less than $100, "Bid" ought to be grayed out and >> isn't. >> >> >> >> [EV] Three sensible UI improvements for the start rounds. >> >> >> >> Operating rounds: >> >> >> >> * The map should show the reserved hexes controlled by certain minors. >> >> (I don't expect them to be enforced yet, just shown.) >> >> >> >> [EV] Agree. I think there should be a generic configuration option to >> add >> >> any text to any tile. >> >> >> >> * Please enforce the rule that minors can't lay green tiles. >> >> >> >> [EV] I'm pretty sure that this worked correctly until recently. Stefan, >> I >> >> think to have been working on the tile laying rules - can you please >> >> check? >> >> >> >> * When no tile lay is legally possible, please skip the tile-lay step. >> >> (Which would mean that after the first couple of rounds, most minors' >> >> tile- >> >> lay step would be skipped, speeding up the game a lot.) >> >> >> >> [EV] This can only be done if the current disconnect between knowing >> about >> >> legal lays (in the UI only) and the round/step management (in the game >> >> engine) has been fixed. Be aware, though, that any additional action >> skips >> >> will make all previous saved files unloadable, insofar these contain >> >> pass/done actions that are now skipped. I'm very reluctant to do add or >> >> remove such steps, as that will (again) invalidate many of my saved >> files >> >> that I use for testing. >> >> >> >> * When placing tile #581 (green upgrade) in Berlin and trying it both >> >> ways >> >> it will go, the tokens that are already there (#9 and KPEV, which I >> formed >> >> from #7) are shown, respectively, along the SE and NW edges, rather >> than >> >> the >> >> NE and SW which are the existing connections they must keep. They move >> to >> >> the correct places once I make the tile lay final, but showing them >> wrong >> >> makes it harder to place the tile correctly. >> >> >> >> [EV] Will look at that. Don't hold your breath - token repositioning on >> >> upgrades is one of the most complex processes we now have. >> >> >> >> * It would be nice if I were allowed to have the program compute runs >> >> before I decide what tile to lay. Sometimes a company is so spread out >> it >> >> isn't obvious where its trains are going. (Of course I can always work >> >> around this by skipping the tile lay step, then "undo".) >> >> >> >> [EV] That's again for Stefan, I think. >> >> >> >> * When deciding whether to pay, split, or withhold, it would be nice >> if >> >> the screen showed how much money the company will have after each >> choice. >> >> This isn't always easy to work out in your head, especially if there >> are >> >> some shares paying dividends into the treasury. This goes for all >> games. >> >> >> >> [EV] Where should the screen show that? Below each of these buttons? >> >> >> >> * Please get rid of the pop-up "<company> owns no trains, so revenue >> is >> >> $0." Instead, just silently skip the revenue-setting step. >> >> >> >> [EV] Agree. >> >> >> >> * The column that now reports "Pay out", "Withhold", or "Split" for >> the >> >> last turn of each company ought to say "$0 income" (or maybe "No run" >> or >> >> "No train") when that is true, so it doesn't look like the owner chose >> to >> >> withhold. >> >> >> >> [EV] A sensible refinement. >> >> >> >> * A company's train-buying step is correctly skipped if it has no room >> >> for >> >> another train, but it should also be skipped (that is, "Buy Train" >> should >> >> be grayed out) if the company has $0 and at least one train. >> Similarly, >> >> if >> >> a company spends its last dollar on a train (including forced >> purchases), >> >> its train-buying step should immediately end. >> >> (I believe this goes for all games -- or does anyone on this list >> really >> >> think that any game exists in which a train "purchase" from another >> >> company >> >> for $0 is allowed? But even if you do, it's explicitly banned in >> 18EU.) >> >> >> >> [EV] Right, but see my above remark on skipping existing actions. >> >> >> >> * When it's impossible for the company to buy or sell any treasury >> >> shares, >> >> the TRADING TREASURY SHARES step should be skipped. (I'm mostly >> thinking >> >> of the situation when all shares of the company are owned by players, >> but >> >> it also applies if the company has no shares in treasury and has too >> >> little >> >> cash to buy one from the bank pool, or there are 5 shares in the bank >> pool >> >> and the company has too little cash to buy one.) Because of the change >> of >> >> focus, this is a major waste of time, especially in the late game when >> the >> >> only shares not owned by players are those of companies that were never >> >> started. >> >> >> >> [EV] Yes, that makes sense, but see above. >> >> >> >> * Buying and selling treasury stock works correctly, except one minor >> >> detail: when I mouse-over the "treasury shares" column, the tooltip >> says >> >> "click to select for buying" (even though it would be selling). >> >> >> >> [EV] OK. >> >> >> >> Stock rounds: >> >> >> >> * When floating a new company, if I buy until I have 60% and then >> merge >> >> in >> >> another minor company (to get more than 60% until the next stock round, >> >> which is specifically allowed in the rules) the exchange occurs but the >> >> "Done" button stays grayed out, making it impossible to continue the >> game >> >> without Undoing the exchange. >> >> >> >> [EV] Will look at that bug (if Stefan doesn't beat me) >> >> >> >> * If I start a company (purchase the president's share) and then Undo >> the >> >> act of forming it, the status window continues to show the company with >> >> the >> >> share price I set. >> >> >> >> [EV] Guess we're missing a state variable here. >> >> >> >> * When I buy shares from a company's treasury, the amount of money in >> >> that >> >> treasury is usually not updated right away. >> >> >> >> [EV] OK >> >> >> >> Ending: >> >> >> >> * Please get rid of BOTH pop-ups saying the bank has broken. Instead, >> >> just change the space on the Game Status window where the amount of >> money >> >> in the bank is normally shown to say "BROKEN", maybe in bright colors. >> >> >> >> [EV] The former is simple, the latter a bit less so, but I agree. >> >> >> >> * The repeated pop-ups that "count down" to the winning player are >> even >> >> more annoying. >> >> >> >> [EV] Fully agree. Luckily I can plead innocence here... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> -- >> >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances >> >> and start using them to simplify application deployment and >> >> accelerate your shift to cloud computing >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rails-devel mailing list >> >> Rai...@li... >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances >> >> and start using them to simplify application deployment and >> >> accelerate your shift to cloud computing >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rails-devel mailing list >> >> Rai...@li... >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances >> > and start using them to simplify application deployment and >> > accelerate your shift to cloud computing >> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rails-devel mailing list >> > Rai...@li... >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel >> > >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances >> and start using them to simplify application deployment and >> accelerate your shift to cloud computing >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev >> _______________________________________________ >> Rails-devel mailing list >> Rai...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel >> > > |
From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-09-12 15:16:44
|
* It would be nice if the Game Status window had a column showing each player's total income in the last round. This would act as a reminder that the player who is falling furthest behind had better DO SOMETHING! (and conversely, that the player who is making the most money should probably not change the status quo, by buying lots of trains or starting new companies). [EV] The question here is: what cash gains qualify as income? I would say: - payments by owned private companies - all dividends paid out for owned shares but not: - cash received for sold properties (shares, tokens, whatever) The main issue being: - will share value increase count as income (and decrease as negative income)? Another, but related, question is: do we add up income in Operating Rounds only, of in all rounds? I would say that the player's 'worth' increase/decrease per OR would be the best indicator of his/her future prospects. That would then include share value changes, but only in Operating Rounds. Other opinions? Erik. |
From: John D. G. <jd...@di...> - 2010-09-12 19:37:47
|
Erik Vos wrote: > * It would be nice if the Game Status window had a column showing each > player's total income in the last round. This would act as a reminder that > the player who is falling furthest behind had better DO SOMETHING! (and > conversely, that the player who is making the most money should probably not > change the status quo, by buying lots of trains or starting new companies). > > [EV] The question here is: what cash gains qualify as income? > I would say: > - payments by owned private companies > - all dividends paid out for owned shares > but not: > - cash received for sold properties (shares, tokens, whatever) > The main issue being: > - will share value increase count as income (and decrease as negative > income)? > > Another, but related, question is: do we add up income in Operating Rounds > only, of in all rounds? It should probably include all changes to net worth, since that is how I would want to make the decision to be active or passive. The one thing I liked in Avalon Hill's computer 1830 that isn't in Rails is the graph you can display (click on History, then Players) that compares you to the other players, round by round as the game progresses. (I'm studying accounting, and one of these days I'm going to end a round in a PBEM 18xx game by sending out a set of GAAP financial statements, just to freak the other players out.) |
From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-09-12 20:14:27
|
-----Original Message----- From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...] Sent: Sunday 12 September 2010 22:37 To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Rails 1.4 18EU playtest with commentary (I'm studying accounting, and one of these days I'm going to end a round in a PBEM 18xx game by sending out a set of GAAP financial statements, just to freak the other players out.) [EV] Or put them to sleep. Gaap is the Dutch word for yawn (noun). Erik. |
From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-09-13 20:34:21
|
OK, thanks. Next question: would you like the income-per-OR be updated continuously during that OR (which means that all values need to be reset to 0 at the start of the OR), or just once when an OR is finished (so that the previous value remains visible up to that point)? Erik. -----Original Message----- From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...] Sent: Sunday 12 September 2010 22:37 To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Rails 1.4 18EU playtest with commentary Erik Vos wrote: > * It would be nice if the Game Status window had a column showing each > player's total income in the last round. This would act as a reminder that > the player who is falling furthest behind had better DO SOMETHING! (and > conversely, that the player who is making the most money should probably not > change the status quo, by buying lots of trains or starting new companies). > > [EV] The question here is: what cash gains qualify as income? > I would say: > - payments by owned private companies > - all dividends paid out for owned shares > but not: > - cash received for sold properties (shares, tokens, whatever) > The main issue being: > - will share value increase count as income (and decrease as negative > income)? > > Another, but related, question is: do we add up income in Operating Rounds > only, of in all rounds? It should probably include all changes to net worth, since that is how I would want to make the decision to be active or passive. The one thing I liked in Avalon Hill's computer 1830 that isn't in Rails is the graph you can display (click on History, then Players) that compares you to the other players, round by round as the game progresses. (I'm studying accounting, and one of these days I'm going to end a round in a PBEM 18xx game by sending out a set of GAAP financial statements, just to freak the other players out.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev _______________________________________________ Rails-devel mailing list Rai...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel |
From: John D. G. <jd...@di...> - 2010-09-14 04:15:40
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Erik Vos wrote: > OK, thanks. > > Next question: would you like the income-per-OR be updated continuously > during that OR (which means that all values need to be reset to 0 at the > start of the OR), or just once when an OR is finished (so that the previous > value remains visible up to that point)? If I were writing it, it would update at the end of each OR (and maybe log itself to make look-back possible). |
From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-09-17 22:39:53
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OK, I have committed code to show each player's worth increase during the last complete OR in an extra row in the Game Status. Erik. -----Original Message----- From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...] Sent: Tuesday 14 September 2010 07:13 To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Rails 1.4 18EU playtest with commentary Erik Vos wrote: > OK, thanks. > > Next question: would you like the income-per-OR be updated continuously > during that OR (which means that all values need to be reset to 0 at the > start of the OR), or just once when an OR is finished (so that the previous > value remains visible up to that point)? If I were writing it, it would update at the end of each OR (and maybe log itself to make look-back possible). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev _______________________________________________ Rails-devel mailing list Rai...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel |
From: Stefan F. <ste...@we...> - 2010-09-12 22:52:09
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On Saturday, September 11, 2010 04:31:31 am John David Galt wrote: > Comments on Rails 1.4, tested with a four player game of 18EU 2010-09-09 A list of comments on those topics, which Erik left to me ;-) I categorize them into (potential) bugs and UI improvements. Some short opinions on other issues at the end. Stefan (Potential) bugs: * Please enforce the rule that minors can't lay green tiles. SFY: First a general remark how Rails checks conditions: In general the game engine has two types of checks. At the time of generating available actions for the UI (ex-ante) and after the player chose/specified an action (ex-post). Some actions are passed pretty generic to the UI (for example tile lays: it simply states the tile colour). For those the UI has additional validation checks during the process of specification. The ex-post checks usually cover every aspect to prevent any action going through which violate an 18xx rule, but it can only raise an error. So in the case above: For minors the game engine only creates yellow tile lay actions (as shown by the instruction text above the map). The UI does not consider that and still suggest green tiles (this is an omission), but the game engine complains later that a minor is not allowed to lay green tiles. However if you were really able to lay a green tile with a minor, please forward the game file. Remark: This is similar to the tile lay on Ludwigshafen/Mannheim: Only the ex-post check prevents the special tile lay there in yellow, the ex-ante generation does not know which tile the Pfalzbahn could lay. * A player is correctly skipped when an item someone else selected for bidding would cost more than he has. But if it's your turn to select an item and you have less than $100, "Bid" ought to be grayed out and isn't. SFY: I hope again that this is only the ex-ante check missing, the game engine should still complain that a bid is not possible here. UI improvements: * Entering a comment before the first action in the game should be allowed. SFY: This would change with an option to comment before actions in general. But then it is not possible to comment after the game has ended... * Entering two comments in a row should append, not replace. SFY: Current behavior is to suggest the previous entered comment in the text field. Maybe a larger editing window makes sense. Comments so far are plain Strings related to actions and for now I would prefer to keep things simple. * It would be nice if the program could remember (or let you save in a config file) the locations of every window, so you don't have to move them manual every time you start a game (and often afterward too). I always use these settings. Stock market: upper left corner of screen "Game Status" tabulation/stock round input: lower left corner of screen Map/operating round input: upper right corner of screen (and don't allow the height to self-adjust so it's taller than the screen height minus the Windows menu bar -- it now does so at the start of every OR until there are too few companies to cause it (in my case, 10 companies). The map also moves so it extends about an inch to the right of the screen, every time.) History/comment window: lower right corner SFY: Currently have a prototype working, but there is still some need to discuss which window properties are saved. My general opinion on UI is that the use of advanced libraries (adding a docking framework like JDock and improved layout managers like MIGLayout) should be the foundation in the longer run. * When no tile lay is legally possible, please skip the tile-lay step. (Which would mean that after the first couple of rounds, most minors' tile- lay step would be skipped, speeding up the game a lot.) SFY: As Erik pointed out already: At the beginning of the tile laying step the game engine does not know that no tile lay is possible. I am working on the whole tile laying process since I have the route algorithm working, but it is not trivial, as it should support not only the permissive, but also the restrictive/semi-restrictive rule-set. * It would be nice if I were allowed to have the program compute runs before I decide what tile to lay. Sometimes a company is so spread out it isn't obvious where its trains are going. (Of course I can always work around this by skipping the tile lay step, then "undo".) SFY: Very good suggestion, pretty easy to change. I wonder if this should be an UI configuration. (The game option for revenue calculation is a general allow/disallow switch, how it works precisely is maybe up to each player?) * Please get rid of the pop-up "<company> owns no trains, so revenue is $0." Instead, just silently skip the revenue-setting step. * Please get rid of BOTH pop-ups saying the bank has broken. Instead, just change the space on the Game Status window where the amount of money in the bank is normally shown to say "BROKEN", maybe in bright colors. SFY: All of those dialogs are created by the general-purpose DisplayBuffer mechanism, which allows the backend to transmit messages to the user. The question is what exactly is evil: Modal or pop-up? Changing those dialogs to non-modal is an easy change, but I suspect that the pop-up behavior is the one in question. The route information used to be a pop-up too and I moved that to the message panel above the map. For this I modified the MessagePanel class, which now allows to add additional and/or optional text to display. It is possible to make the information available there. This would require to add the message panel to the Stock/Status window. The double-pop-up is an application of a flag to display that message to the following player, but that can be easily removed. * The repeated pop-ups that "count down" to the winning player are even more annoying. SFY: At the time I fixed the UNDO behavior of the game end I took the liberty to emulate the behavior of Lemmi's moderator which has this dramatic display of players wealth at the end of the game. I agree that this makes only sense, if players total wealth is not displayed anyway throughout the game, but this is another option I would like to add for ftf-play. Other (which Erik already commented on): - Y: I support different preprinted tiles for Y-cities, which would not require to specify the hexes in TileSet.xml - Map labels: The map.xml already supports labels (see 1830 example). However it is not drawn yet. Again strong support here. (Would be even nice to be able to toggle on/off the city names). - Action skipping: For the recent 18EU action auto passing I used a different approach to skip actions automatically. Instead of not creating those actions, the actions are still generated, but are selected automatically. This should work on many occasions as well. But I wonder if this should be configurable as well, as it might confuse newbies (why does my company always get skipped?). |