rails-devel

[Rails-devel] No sale in first (share) round - exact interpretation?

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

There seems to be a rule which is nearly identical for all 18xx:

"There is no sale of company shares during the first round."
See http://www.fwtwr.com/18xx/rules_difference_list/1_3.htm

However what exactly is the definition of the first (share) round?

In most 18xx the game starts with a kind of special distribution 
(auction) of a packet of certificates.

In Rails terminology this is the StartPacket and those rounds are called 
StartRounds.

There can be several StartRounds, if all player passes, a (short) 
OperatingRound starts. In that round only private companies pay their 
fixed dividend.

After the StartPacket is fully sold, a StockRound immediately follows.

Simple question:
The rule "no sale of shares during the first (share) round" is valid for

A) Exactly the first round of the game, including that there the 
StartPacket is on offer. If this round ends by all players passing, the 
second (share) round begins, regardless if the StartPacket was sold or 
not. From this point in the game shares can be sold (as soon as the 
StartPacket is fully sold).

B) The first StockRound that starts/continues immediately after the 
StartPacket was sold.

Or the more complex question:
Or might this be even game dependent?

On a first glance into a few rules my guess is that it might be even the 
latter (not surprisingly in 18xx).

For 1830 and 1835 rules read as A) is correct.

For 1856 and 1870 the rules seem to suggest B) as correct.

The current Rails implementation for all games with that rule is B).

Background:

The cause for this mail is a off-list bug-report by Harald Stieling for 
the 1835 implementation in Rails:

1835 allows to float a company (BY) even if the StartPacket is not fully 
sold (e.g. the M4 or HB are unsold).

So assume that BY floats in the first StartRound, operates once, then 
Rails returns to selling the StartPacket in a second StartRound, 
followed by the first StockRound. Now Rails assume that this is the 
first share round, that no shares can be sold. This implies that no BY 
shares can be sold, even if BY already operated.
This case is clearly against the rules of 1835.

However to fix the bug, it would be great, if their is a general 
consensus how to interpret the "no sale of shares in the first (share) 
round" rule. At least for each 18xx implemented in Rails. ;-)

More comments and views?

Stefan

Re: [Rails-devel] No sale in first (share) round - exact interpretation?

[brett l. <bre...@gm...>]

There's a third, slightly different option that some rule sets also use:

C) You can't sell a share of a company that has not yet operated, even
after the first Stock Round.

IMO, B is _usually_ the correct behavior for most 1830-style games. In
some, specific games, Rails should operate according to C, which will
necessarily include A and often, but not always, includes B.

So, Rails probably just needs a hasOperated boolean or lastORValue integer
for every Company in order to implement C, and then we can tidy up which
games need which behavior.

---Brett.


---Brett.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:

> There seems to be a rule which is nearly identical for all 18xx:
>
> "There is no sale of company shares during the first round."
> See http://www.fwtwr.com/18xx/rules_difference_list/1_3.htm
>
> However what exactly is the definition of the first (share) round?
>
> In most 18xx the game starts with a kind of special distribution
> (auction) of a packet of certificates.
>
> In Rails terminology this is the StartPacket and those rounds are called
> StartRounds.
>
> There can be several StartRounds, if all player passes, a (short)
> OperatingRound starts. In that round only private companies pay their
> fixed dividend.
>
> After the StartPacket is fully sold, a StockRound immediately follows.
>
> Simple question:
> The rule "no sale of shares during the first (share) round" is valid for
>
> A) Exactly the first round of the game, including that there the
> StartPacket is on offer. If this round ends by all players passing, the
> second (share) round begins, regardless if the StartPacket was sold or
> not. From this point in the game shares can be sold (as soon as the
> StartPacket is fully sold).
>
> B) The first StockRound that starts/continues immediately after the
> StartPacket was sold.
>
> Or the more complex question:
> Or might this be even game dependent?
>
> On a first glance into a few rules my guess is that it might be even the
> latter (not surprisingly in 18xx).
>
> For 1830 and 1835 rules read as A) is correct.
>
> For 1856 and 1870 the rules seem to suggest B) as correct.
>
> The current Rails implementation for all games with that rule is B).
>
> Background:
>
> The cause for this mail is a off-list bug-report by Harald Stieling for
> the 1835 implementation in Rails:
>
> 1835 allows to float a company (BY) even if the StartPacket is not fully
> sold (e.g. the M4 or HB are unsold).
>
> So assume that BY floats in the first StartRound, operates once, then
> Rails returns to selling the StartPacket in a second StartRound,
> followed by the first StockRound. Now Rails assume that this is the
> first share round, that no shares can be sold. This implies that no BY
> shares can be sold, even if BY already operated.
> This case is clearly against the rules of 1835.
>
> However to fix the bug, it would be great, if their is a general
> consensus how to interpret the "no sale of shares in the first (share)
> round" rule. At least for each 18xx implemented in Rails. ;-)
>
> More comments and views?
>
> Stefan
>
>
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Re: [Rails-devel] No sale in first (share) round - exact interpretation?

[John D. G. <jd...@di...>]

On 2015-03-12 13:56, Stefan Frey wrote:
> There seems to be a rule which is nearly identical for all 18xx:
> 
> "There is no sale of company shares during the first round."
> See http://www.fwtwr.com/18xx/rules_difference_list/1_3.htm
> 
> However what exactly is the definition of the first (share) round?

I consider the definitive answer to be what it is in 1830: the first
stock round means everything that precedes the first operating round.
Thus the test for whether a player can sell shares should simply be
whether or not any company -- even a private -- has operated.

(tl;dr The rest of this message is merely detail to support/explain this
theory.)

Thus in 1830, the first stock round usually includes the entire set of
private-company auctions and goes on to cover the "regular stock round"
that follows those auctions.  However, if all players pass at some
earlier point and private-company owners collect income, then the first
stock round has ended then.  (If all players pass before the SVN&RR is
purchased, so that there is no operating round, the first stock round
has NOT ended and it continues to be illegal to sell any shares.)

Similarly in 1835, the first stock round usually includes the sale of
the entire starting packet, and sometimes a small number of stock
purchases after it has sold out.  But again it is possible for the first
stock round to end while some privates remain unsold -- in which case
under standard rules, an operating round takes place, thus ending the
first stock round.  (I'm not sure exactly how the option setting "Minors
don't run if BY has not floated" affects this question.  If that option
prevents even privates from paying out, then no operating round has
occurred, so the first stock round has NOT ended yet.  But that's
academic, since if BY has not floated then the rule that you can't sell
any shares of companies which haven't operated (except PR) prevents you
from selling anything anyway.)

Most games will follow one of these two general patterns, with some
variations.

Re: [Rails-devel] No sale in first (share) round - exact interpretation?

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

Many games allow sales in the first stock round, so this should be
supported.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 5:51 PM John David Galt <
jd...@di...> wrote:

> On 2015-03-12 13:56, Stefan Frey wrote:
> > There seems to be a rule which is nearly identical for all 18xx:
> >
> > "There is no sale of company shares during the first round."
> > See http://www.fwtwr.com/18xx/rules_difference_list/1_3.htm
> >
> > However what exactly is the definition of the first (share) round?
>
> I consider the definitive answer to be what it is in 1830: the first
> stock round means everything that precedes the first operating round.
> Thus the test for whether a player can sell shares should simply be
> whether or not any company -- even a private -- has operated.
>
> (tl;dr The rest of this message is merely detail to support/explain this
> theory.)
>
> Thus in 1830, the first stock round usually includes the entire set of
> private-company auctions and goes on to cover the "regular stock round"
> that follows those auctions.  However, if all players pass at some
> earlier point and private-company owners collect income, then the first
> stock round has ended then.  (If all players pass before the SVN&RR is
> purchased, so that there is no operating round, the first stock round
> has NOT ended and it continues to be illegal to sell any shares.)
>
> Similarly in 1835, the first stock round usually includes the sale of
> the entire starting packet, and sometimes a small number of stock
> purchases after it has sold out.  But again it is possible for the first
> stock round to end while some privates remain unsold -- in which case
> under standard rules, an operating round takes place, thus ending the
> first stock round.  (I'm not sure exactly how the option setting "Minors
> don't run if BY has not floated" affects this question.  If that option
> prevents even privates from paying out, then no operating round has
> occurred, so the first stock round has NOT ended yet.  But that's
> academic, since if BY has not floated then the rule that you can't sell
> any shares of companies which haven't operated (except PR) prevents you
> from selling anything anyway.)
>
> Most games will follow one of these two general patterns, with some
> variations.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website,
> sponsored
> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for
> all
> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs
> to
> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>