rails-devel

[Rails-devel] Teleporting Privates: Implementation issues

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

In the following it is rougher longish list of attributes for all 
privates with teleporting powers.

By collecting those I came up with some implementation issues in Rails 
that I would like to fix in 2.0.

So please feel free to comment where you agree or disagree. I know this 
has been discussed before, but from what I have seen there has been no 
definite decision yet. Sometimes it got blurred that privates in 
different games behave differently but were discussed as being 
identical. And I have to include myself here ;-)

*** Rails  and the "teleporting" privates.

Those are privates that provide a special power to lay a base token.

In Rails there are currently 1830 (D&H), 1835 (NF, PfB), 1856 (W&SR), 
18GA (W&S), 18Kaas(D&H) implemented.

Rails implementation issues are:

A) Laying tokens on hexes/tiles without track

For all except NF in 1835, the token is laid on a hex that initially 
does not contain any track.

Question is if it is allowed to lay the token without a tile is laid before.
Unfortunately this nearly never addressed in the rule book, in most 
cases the answer is given by a rules clarification.

There are several variants:

1830/D&H: I have not found any precise ruling here. However it is very 
unlikely to lay the token without laying the tile.
1835/PfB: The tile has to be laid (and the BA choose her station first).
1856/WS&R: No need for tile lay first.
18GA/W&S: No need for tile lay first.

* My suggestions for implementation in Rails:

=> 1830/D&H: Only offer the special token lay if the special tile has 
been executed in that turn. Later it is not possible anymore (see 
Mayfair rules).
(Same is true for 18Kaas/D&H)

=> 1835/PfB: Only offer the special token lay if the tile is laid 
(regardless by whom and how) and the BA token is placed.
And change the closing condition to token lay only.

=> 1856/WS&R: Nothing to change here

=> 18GA/W&S: Nothing to change, except fix bug (Rails offers a special 
tile lay similar to D&H in 1830, this is wrong).

B) Tile or Token phase for 1835/NF and 1835/PfB?

Remark: I think there is agreement, that those are the two relevant phases.

It is relevant if the token laying company can start tile laying from 
the newly established token head.

* My suggestion:

=> Default should be Tile Lay phase, however provide option to change it 
to Token lay phase (Rick Westermann rule)


*** APPENDIX

Below I have summarized all attributes of the special company as given 
by the game rules (or clarifications).

* The attributes are:

For tile lay:
tile: if a specific tile is allowed/required to lay?
when: in which phase the tile lay is allowed?
extra: if tile lay is in addition to the standard tile lay allowances?
connected: if tile has to follow usual tile laying rules with respect to 
connectivity?
free: if the tile lay would usually require payment of terrain cost - if 
it is free of that charge?
reserved: if the hex is reserved for the tile lay through the special power

For token lay:
when: in which phase the token lay is allowed?
extra: if token lay is in addition to the standard token lay allowance 
of that turn
   [Remark: Rails always assume that home token are extra lays]
connected: if tile has to follow usual tile laying rules with respect to 
connectivity?
free: if the token lay would usually require payment of some costs - if 
it is free of that charge
reserved: if a slot is reserved for the special power of the privat company
   [Remark: This would be similar to the reserved slots of home tokens, 
no current private has this power]
requires tile laid: if there has to be a tile laid before the token can 
be placed

General (if private has both Tile and Token powers)
Private closes: When does the private close (after execution of all, 
any, none, or a specific power?)
Separate execution: Can the powers be executed separately? (in different 
turns, by different companies?)


*** 1830:

* D&H - Delaware & Hudson [Tile & Token]

Location: F16

Ownership: only available to owning company

Tile lay:
tile - 57 (not reserved)
when - in Tile Lay phase
extra - no
connected - no
free - no (cost of mountain = 120)
reserved - no (except blocking before bought by company)

Token lay:
when - in Token Lay phase
extra - no [AH General Clarification]
connected - no
free - yes
reserved - no
requires tile laid: ??? (current implementation allows token lay without 
tile lay - similar to W&SR)

Private closes: never

Separate execution [Mayfair]:
After other company lay tile, special token lay no longer available
After own tile lay, token lay no longer available in future turns
After own token lay, tile lay in future turns: ???

*** 1835:

* NF - Nuernberg / Fuerth [Token only]

Location: L14 (preprinted green double cities with 2 narrow curves)

Ownership: available to all companies of owning player

Token lay:
when - (anytime, especially) in Tile Lay phase
[optional: only in Token Lay phase / Rick Westermann supplemental rule]
extra - yes
connected - no
free - yes
reserved - no
requires tile laid - N/A (already on map)

Private closes: after special token lay

* Pfb - Pfalzbahn [Tile & Token]

Location: L6 (yellow double cities)

Ownership: available to all companies of owning player

Tile lay:
tiles - all available (green phase only)
when - in Tile Lay phase
extra - yes
connected - no
free - yes (however there is no cost on L6 anyway)
reserved - no

Token lay:
when - (anytime, especially) in Tile Lay phase
Remark: station marker of BA has to be laid first [german rules 2nd ed]
[optional: only in Token Lay phase / Rick Westermann supplemental rule]
extra - yes
connected - no
free - yes
reserved - no
requires tile laid - yes [german rules 2nd ed]

Private closes: after special token lay

Separate execution:
yes, token after tile lay possible, even by different companies

*** 1856

* W&SR - Waterloo & Saugeen Railway [Tile & Token]

Location: I12 (yellow double cities)

Ownership: only available to owning company

Tile lay:
tile - 59 (not reserved)
when - in Tile Lay phase
extra - no
connected - no
free - no (however there is no cost on I12 anyway)
reserved - no (except blocking before bought by company)

Token lay:
when - in Token Lay phase
extra - no
connected - no
free - yes
reserved - no
requires tile laid - no [Lou Jerkich rules clarification]
Remark: owner tile laying company chooses token location

Private closes: after either tile and token lay

Separate execution:
no, as private will close after either action

*** 18GA

* W&S - Waycross & Southern [Token only]

Token lay:
when - in Token lay phase
extra - no
connected - no
free - yes
reserved - no (not even blocked for tile if owned by player)

Remark: Bug in Rails: Allows Special tile lay


*** 18Kaas

* D&H - identical to 1830/D&H, except location = K16

Re: [Rails-devel] Teleporting Privates: Implementation issues

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Hi Stefan,

Allow me to pick a little nit:

 > * NF - Nuernberg / Fuerth [Token only]
> requires tile laid - N/A (already on map)

Technically, in Rails, there always is a tile on the map, even initially.
The distinction you are making here with 1830/D&H suggests that you actually
had "track on the (initial) map" in mind.
But in practice, as you know, this option is meant to define if a
non-preprinted tile has to be laid to allow token laying. 
So a better answer here would be "no".

Erik

Re: [Rails-devel] Teleporting Privates: Implementation issues

[John D. G. <jd...@di...>]

On 2014-11-27 02:39, Stefan Frey wrote:
> * My suggestions for implementation in Rails:
> 
> => 1830/D&H: Only offer the special token lay if the special tile has 
> been executed in that turn. Later it is not possible anymore (see 
> Mayfair rules).
> (Same is true for 18Kaas/D&H)

In 1830 rules it is definitely possible to lay a token without a tile.
Still, your answer is reasonable.  I can't think of any reason why a
player would want to lay the tile but not the token.

The other place this commonly happens is the Erie home -- I've seen the
Erie float and somebody else use up both #59 tiles before Erie's turn!
I've also seen the Erie (or NYC) not choose to lay its home tile because
its owner doesn't want to be forced to buy the last 4 train.  In both
these cases the token is required to be laid in the empty hex anyway
(and some other company may then build a route to it, just to force that
company to buy the train).

> => 1835/PfB: Only offer the special token lay if the tile is laid 
> (regardless by whom and how) and the BA token is placed.
> And change the closing condition to token lay only.

That agrees with my understanding of the rules.

1835/OBB also deserves mention, even though it does not lay a token.
The present code doesn't allow tiles to be laid in those two hexes on
the same turn, no matter who lays them or whether that player has the
OBB.  What the rules say should happen is that you can't use the OBB to
lay both tiles in one turn -- but you can lay both if one of them is
counted as a regular tile lay.  Also, the OBB should close as soon as
there are tiles in both hexes -- even if the OBB didn't put them there.

> => 1856/WS&R: Nothing to change here

I agree.  The existing program allows the token to be laid without a
tile, and that can easily be necessary, because there are only two #59
tiles and they are easy to use up, especially if THB forms.

> => 18GA/W&S: Nothing to change, except fix bug (Rails offers a special 
> tile lay similar to D&H in 1830, this is wrong).

I agree.

> B) Tile or Token phase for 1835/NF and 1835/PfB?
> 
> Remark: I think there is agreement, that those are the two relevant phases.

(Semantics: Let's stick with "step" = steps of the turn, "phase" = parts
of the game that determine rule changes.)

> It is relevant if the token laying company can start tile laying from 
> the newly established token head.

I would make it the default behavior, that tiles are placed in the tile
laying step and tokens (except a company's home) are placed in the token
laying step.  But in 1835 I would allow it to be changed as an option,
because some players insist that they can place the token and then lay
track from it on the same turn.

> *** APPENDIX
> 
> Below I have summarized all attributes of the special company as given 
> by the game rules (or clarifications).
> 
> * The attributes are:
> 
> For tile lay:
> tile: if a specific tile is allowed/required to lay?

when: in which step the tile lay is allowed?

> extra: if tile lay is in addition to the standard tile lay allowances?
> connected: if tile has to follow usual tile laying rules with respect to 
> connectivity?
> free: if the tile lay would usually require payment of terrain cost - if 
> it is free of that charge?
> reserved: if the hex is reserved for the tile lay through the special power

I've always assumed "reserved" here means the broader, 1830 sense of
the term: when a hex is "reserved" by a private, it means no railroad
can lay a tile in the hex, except by using the private's power, so long
as a player owns the private.  When the private closes, or is sold to a
railroad, or a tile is laid there, the hex is no longer reserved.

I also want to make the "reserved" attribute changeable during the game,
because in 1837, the mountain company hexes are "reserved" only during
yellow phase.  In later phases anyone can lay tiles there.

> For token lay:
> when: in which phase the token lay is allowed?
> extra: if token lay is in addition to the standard token lay allowance 
> of that turn
>    [Remark: Rails always assume that home token are extra lays]
> connected: if tile has to follow usual tile laying rules with respect to 
> connectivity?
> free: if the token lay would usually require payment of some costs - if 
> it is free of that charge
> reserved: if a slot is reserved for the special power of the privat company
>    [Remark: This would be similar to the reserved slots of home tokens, 
> no current private has this power]
> requires tile laid: if there has to be a tile laid before the token can 
> be placed

I would add an attribute here -

controlled: means that some company (specified by this attribute) "owns"
the hex, and the first tile laid in that hex requires its permission.
(Examples: the Erie home in 1830; the BA home in 1835; all six hexes
around Paris in 1826; and four hexes in 18EU that could block a newly
formed company from building a route.  Some players play that the THB
home in 1856 has this attribute, too.)

> General (if private has both Tile and Token powers)
> Private closes: When does the private close (after execution of all, 
> any, none, or a specific power?)

I would generalize this to allow conditions such as "after any tile
is laid at H36" to handle cases like 1835/OBB.

> Separate execution: Can the powers be executed separately? (in different 
> turns, by different companies?)

No need for this.  The only cases I can think of are "tile and token"
teleport privates such as the D&H and Pfalz, and the way to handle
those is simply to close the private at the end of the turn when any
one of the powers is used (if you don't want to let them be used on
separate turns) or only when all the powers are used (if you do want
to allow this).

> *** 1830:
> 
> * D&H - Delaware & Hudson [Tile & Token]
> 
> Location: F16
> 
> Ownership: only available to owning company
> 
> Tile lay:
tile - all available yellow tiles (this handles variants that add
       #5 and #6 tiles to the game)
> when - in Tile Lay phase
> extra - no
> connected - no
> free - no (cost of mountain = 120)

reserved - yes  (as I define the term above)

> Token lay:
> when - in Token Lay phase
> extra - no [AH General Clarification]
> connected - no
> free - yes
> reserved - no

requires tile laid - no
private closes - at end of turn in which either power is used
   (Optional rule: at end of turn in which token is laid.  This
   implements the Mayfair rule.)

(We don't need to consider the case of laying token now and tile later,
because once a company has a token in a hex, it can lay a tile there
using the normal building rules.  18GA/W&S already relies on this fact.)

> *** 1835:
> 
> * NF - Nuernberg / Fuerth [Token only]
> 
> Location: L14 (preprinted green double cities with 2 narrow curves)
> 
Ownership: available to all major companies of owning player
> 
> Token lay:

when - token lay step (optional rule: also before tile lay step)

> extra - yes
> connected - no
> free - yes
> reserved - no

requires tile laid - no
private closes - when its token lay power is used

> * Pfb - Pfalzbahn [Tile & Token]
> 
> Location: L6 (yellow double cities)
> 
Ownership: available to all major companies of owning player
> 
> Tile lay:
> tiles - all available (green phase only)

when - tile lay step (optional rule: also after "buy trains" step)

> extra - yes
> connected - no
free - no (however there is no cost on L6 anyway)
> reserved - no
> 
> Token lay:
when - token lay step!
> Remark: station marker of BA has to be laid first [german rules 2nd ed]
> [optional: only in Token Lay phase / Rick Westermann supplemental rule]
> extra - yes
> connected - no
> free - yes
> reserved - no
> requires tile laid - yes [german rules 2nd ed]
> 
private closes - when its token lay power is used

* OBB:
Location: M15, M17
Ownership: available to all major companies of owning player

Tile lay:
tiles - all available
when - tile lay step
extra - yes
connected - no
free - yes
reserved - no
private closes - when there are tiles on both hexes, no matter how they
                 got there!

> *** 1856
> 
> * W&SR - Waterloo & Saugeen Railway [Tile & Token]
> 
> Location: I12 (yellow double cities)
> 
> Ownership: only available to owning company
> 
> Tile lay:
> tile - 59 (not reserved)
> when - in Tile Lay phase
> extra - no
> connected - no
> free - no (however there is no cost on I12 anyway)
> reserved - yes
> 
> Token lay:
> when - in Token Lay phase
> extra - no
> connected - no
> free - yes
> reserved - no
> requires tile laid - no [Lou Jerkich rules clarification]
> Remark: owner tile laying company chooses token location

This doesn't need to be said.  Laying a tile in a hex that has a token
but no track is an upgrade - the person laying the tile chooses which
token goes where, subject to connectivity.

requires tile laid - no
private closes - at end of turn in which either power is used
> 
> *** 18GA
> 
> * W&S - Waycross & Southern [Token only]
> 
> Token lay:
> when - in Token lay phase
> extra - no
> connected - no
> free - yes
reserved - yes  (as I define the term above)
> 
> Remark: Bug in Rails: Allows Special tile lay
> 
> 
> *** 18Kaas
> 
> * D&H - identical to 1830/D&H, except location = K16

*** 1837 (each of the 7 mountain companies)

Location: per each private
Ownership: available to all major, minor, and coal companies of owning player

Tile lay:
tiles - all available
when - tile lay step
extra - no
connected - yes
free - yes
reserved - yes  (changes to "no" when 3 train is purchased)
private closes - never

Re: [Rails-devel] Teleporting Privates: Implementation issues

[<com...@ip...>]

>Still, your answer is reasonable.  I can't think of any reason why a
>player would want to lay the tile but not the token.

Planning ahead - you might lay a tile in advance of needing it for the token
because you know that there's some other tile that you are going to want
to lay in the same round as placing the token. I've seen this happen in multiple
games where laying a token and "activating" a company will trigger a phase
change - so you build the infrastructure in advance of your needs post-phase
change.

Re: [Rails-devel] Teleporting Privates: Implementation issues

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

John:
Thanks for all your feedback and adding further privates.

I will incorporate it into one document and add it to the documentation 
on the Rails web page.

However I am still not sure how to handle 1830/D&H?

You got me re-think again my position here and I completely agree that 
the rules are at least quiet about laying the token only.

My arguments (with decreasing preference) for allowing laying the token 
without the tile are:

A) If something is allowed by applying general rules and is not 
explicitly ruled as forbidden it should be allowed.

B) It is compatible with 1856, where the rules do not have a special 
rule on this. 1835 is different, but here at least the 2nd edition of 
German rules explicitly forbid to lay the PfB token without a tile.

D) It opens more strategic options for the players.

Also previous discussions on 18xx yahoo group take a similar view, 
however there was no general agreement and most of the discussion was 
around 1856, which is clearly solved by now.

My only argument for requiring the tile lay of D&H in the same turn of 
the token lay is based on the new Mayfair 1830 rules:

It did rule that laying the token on a later turn is not allowed and it 
does not allow to lay the token if a different company laid a tile on 
the D&H hex.
For me this indicated that at least the one who did the Mayfair rule 
editing thought that the tile lay is somehow constitutional for the 
token lay, otherwise he or she could have ruled otherwise and allow the 
token lay to be independent of the tile lay (and solve that identical to 
1856 and W&SR).

What do the others think? I think I would prefer now to allow the token 
lay be possible without the tile lay.
But do we allow laying the token if the tile has been laid either in a 
previous round or by a different company? Which seems to be logical, 
however contradicts the Mayfair rules?

Still undecided,

Stefan


On 11/27/2014 07:55 PM, John David Galt wrote:
> On 2014-11-27 02:39, Stefan Frey wrote:
>> * My suggestions for implementation in Rails:
>>
>> => 1830/D&H: Only offer the special token lay if the special tile has
>> been executed in that turn. Later it is not possible anymore (see
>> Mayfair rules).
>> (Same is true for 18Kaas/D&H)
>
> In 1830 rules it is definitely possible to lay a token without a tile.
> Still, your answer is reasonable.  I can't think of any reason why a
> player would want to lay the tile but not the token.
>
> The other place this commonly happens is the Erie home -- I've seen the
> Erie float and somebody else use up both #59 tiles before Erie's turn!
> I've also seen the Erie (or NYC) not choose to lay its home tile because
> its owner doesn't want to be forced to buy the last 4 train.  In both
> these cases the token is required to be laid in the empty hex anyway
> (and some other company may then build a route to it, just to force that
> company to buy the train).
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Teleporting Privates: Implementation issues

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

>
> I've always assumed "reserved" here means the broader, 1830 sense of
> the term: when a hex is "reserved" by a private, it means no railroad
> can lay a tile in the hex, except by using the private's power, so long
> as a player owns the private.  When the private closes, or is sold to a
> railroad, or a tile is laid there, the hex is no longer reserved.
> I also want to make the "reserved" attribute changeable during the game,
> because in 1837, the mountain company hexes are "reserved" only during
> yellow phase.  In later phases anyone can lay tiles there.


 Note that in some games, the private continues to reserve the hex even
after it is owned by a company. The release mechanism should have several
potential triggers.