rails-devel

[Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a share twice in one turn

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

A current open bug report for 1851:
> When I try to sell a second company share during that company's operating
> round, Rails says I can't sell after buying. This appears to be
> inconsistent with the rules.
refers to the fact that it is not possible to sell other shares from the 
Treasury after a first sell transaction (and the error message is confusing).

Question is, similar to the discussion we had previously on selling in 
separate transactions but same player turn in 1835, 1830 and 1870:

Should the second transaction use the initial price at the start of the 
players turn (thus identical to the one used for the first transaction) or 
the reduced price taking the the stock market reaction into account? 

I have not found a ruling in 1851, thus I am inclined to follow the current 
standard implementation in Rails (identical to the first transaction), 
however - if I remember correctly - there was no general consensus for this 
(at least for 1830).

Stefan

Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a share twice in one turn

[Phil D. <de...@gm...>]

I don't believe there is a general consensus among all players but I
would like to think that the prevailing opinion is that in games where
selling a 'block' of shares causes a price drop, you cannot sell 1,
then sell 1, then sell 1 without passing in between and allowing other
people to react.  If you specifically want to sell to drop the price
and are happy to take the hit then you have to sell, let the other
players have a turn each to react, then sell again.

Now, this refers to stock round actions and 1851 where a company is
selling/buying is an operating round action.  It's not clear from the
rules I agree but the way we always play these games face to face is
that each company gets one 'transaction', that is either sell or buy,
and if you can do as many certs as you like in that transaction.  We
mostly apply this to EU.

This is only really an issue when you drop one row per block, that
doesn't happen in 1851, so despite the fact that the 'correct' way of
doing it would be to just choose to sell all the shares you want in
the first transaction, someone could theoretically sell 1, sell 1,
sell 1 and it won't make any difference to the gamestate than selling
3 in one transaction, so in this case it should be allowed (despite
the fact that the user could just click 'undo' then sell the correct
number of shares as a faster way of doing it.  I'm just trying to
think of what makes a more pleasant user experience, they shouldn't
really be left confused because they didn't spot the dropdown box on
the sell screen

Phil

On 15 July 2010 22:49, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:
> A current open bug report for 1851:
>> When I try to sell a second company share during that company's operating
>> round, Rails says I can't sell after buying. This appears to be
>> inconsistent with the rules.
> refers to the fact that it is not possible to sell other shares from the
> Treasury after a first sell transaction (and the error message is confusing).
>
> Question is, similar to the discussion we had previously on selling in
> separate transactions but same player turn in 1835, 1830 and 1870:
>
> Should the second transaction use the initial price at the start of the
> players turn (thus identical to the one used for the first transaction) or
> the reduced price taking the the stock market reaction into account?
>
> I have not found a ruling in 1851, thus I am inclined to follow the current
> standard implementation in Rails (identical to the first transaction),
> however - if I remember correctly - there was no general consensus for this
> (at least for 1830).
>
> Stefan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
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Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a share twicein one turn

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

In Rails, all sell *actions* of shares of the same company (without
intervening buy action) constitute one *transaction*, for the purpose of
price setting and/or price movement.

The one game that necessitates this behaviour is 1835, where most companies
have both (non-president) 10% and 20%, or 5% and 10% share certificates. The
Rails selling mechanic allows selling only one such share unit type in one
*action*. So if you want to sell one 5% share and one 10% share of PR at the
same price, two actions are required to make one transaction.

That's the main reason behind this behaviour. And yes, it precludes repeated
selling in one turn at a lower price after each action, as some people would
like to have it. We could add an option that allows this, but that option,
when selected, would have a probably unwanted side effect on 1835.

Erik.

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Davies [mailto:de...@gm...] 
Sent: Friday 16 July 2010 10:28
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a share
twicein one turn

I don't believe there is a general consensus among all players but I
would like to think that the prevailing opinion is that in games where
selling a 'block' of shares causes a price drop, you cannot sell 1,
then sell 1, then sell 1 without passing in between and allowing other
people to react.  If you specifically want to sell to drop the price
and are happy to take the hit then you have to sell, let the other
players have a turn each to react, then sell again.

Now, this refers to stock round actions and 1851 where a company is
selling/buying is an operating round action.  It's not clear from the
rules I agree but the way we always play these games face to face is
that each company gets one 'transaction', that is either sell or buy,
and if you can do as many certs as you like in that transaction.  We
mostly apply this to EU.

This is only really an issue when you drop one row per block, that
doesn't happen in 1851, so despite the fact that the 'correct' way of
doing it would be to just choose to sell all the shares you want in
the first transaction, someone could theoretically sell 1, sell 1,
sell 1 and it won't make any difference to the gamestate than selling
3 in one transaction, so in this case it should be allowed (despite
the fact that the user could just click 'undo' then sell the correct
number of shares as a faster way of doing it.  I'm just trying to
think of what makes a more pleasant user experience, they shouldn't
really be left confused because they didn't spot the dropdown box on
the sell screen

Phil

On 15 July 2010 22:49, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:
> A current open bug report for 1851:
>> When I try to sell a second company share during that company's operating
>> round, Rails says I can't sell after buying. This appears to be
>> inconsistent with the rules.
> refers to the fact that it is not possible to sell other shares from the
> Treasury after a first sell transaction (and the error message is
confusing).
>
> Question is, similar to the discussion we had previously on selling in
> separate transactions but same player turn in 1835, 1830 and 1870:
>
> Should the second transaction use the initial price at the start of the
> players turn (thus identical to the one used for the first transaction) or
> the reduced price taking the the stock market reaction into account?
>
> I have not found a ruling in 1851, thus I am inclined to follow the
current
> standard implementation in Rails (identical to the first transaction),
> however - if I remember correctly - there was no general consensus for
this
> (at least for 1830).
>
> Stefan
>
>
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Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a share twicein one turn

[brett l. <bre...@gm...>]

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:
> In Rails, all sell *actions* of shares of the same company (without
> intervening buy action) constitute one *transaction*, for the purpose of
> price setting and/or price movement.
>
> The one game that necessitates this behaviour is 1835, where most companies
> have both (non-president) 10% and 20%, or 5% and 10% share certificates. The
> Rails selling mechanic allows selling only one such share unit type in one
> *action*. So if you want to sell one 5% share and one 10% share of PR at the
> same price, two actions are required to make one transaction.
>
> That's the main reason behind this behaviour. And yes, it precludes repeated
> selling in one turn at a lower price after each action, as some people would
> like to have it. We could add an option that allows this, but that option,
> when selected, would have a probably unwanted side effect on 1835.
>

I would like to see this option exist, but only for games that allow
it. Perhaps a game-specific XML option is the way to go here?

> Erik.

---Brett.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Davies [mailto:de...@gm...]
> Sent: Friday 16 July 2010 10:28
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a share
> twicein one turn
>
> I don't believe there is a general consensus among all players but I
> would like to think that the prevailing opinion is that in games where
> selling a 'block' of shares causes a price drop, you cannot sell 1,
> then sell 1, then sell 1 without passing in between and allowing other
> people to react.  If you specifically want to sell to drop the price
> and are happy to take the hit then you have to sell, let the other
> players have a turn each to react, then sell again.
>
> Now, this refers to stock round actions and 1851 where a company is
> selling/buying is an operating round action.  It's not clear from the
> rules I agree but the way we always play these games face to face is
> that each company gets one 'transaction', that is either sell or buy,
> and if you can do as many certs as you like in that transaction.  We
> mostly apply this to EU.
>
> This is only really an issue when you drop one row per block, that
> doesn't happen in 1851, so despite the fact that the 'correct' way of
> doing it would be to just choose to sell all the shares you want in
> the first transaction, someone could theoretically sell 1, sell 1,
> sell 1 and it won't make any difference to the gamestate than selling
> 3 in one transaction, so in this case it should be allowed (despite
> the fact that the user could just click 'undo' then sell the correct
> number of shares as a faster way of doing it.  I'm just trying to
> think of what makes a more pleasant user experience, they shouldn't
> really be left confused because they didn't spot the dropdown box on
> the sell screen
>
> Phil
>
> On 15 July 2010 22:49, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:
>> A current open bug report for 1851:
>>> When I try to sell a second company share during that company's operating
>>> round, Rails says I can't sell after buying. This appears to be
>>> inconsistent with the rules.
>> refers to the fact that it is not possible to sell other shares from the
>> Treasury after a first sell transaction (and the error message is
> confusing).
>>
>> Question is, similar to the discussion we had previously on selling in
>> separate transactions but same player turn in 1835, 1830 and 1870:
>>
>> Should the second transaction use the initial price at the start of the
>> players turn (thus identical to the one used for the first transaction) or
>> the reduced price taking the the stock market reaction into account?
>>
>> I have not found a ruling in 1851, thus I am inclined to follow the
> current
>> standard implementation in Rails (identical to the first transaction),
>> however - if I remember correctly - there was no general consensus for
> this
>> (at least for 1830).
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
>> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
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>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>
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Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a share twicein one turn

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

I agree with Brett, that in general a specific option might be the path to 
follow.

To not forget the original intention of the bug report:

I have fixed the bug that prevented the selling of several shares (hasSold 
instead of hasBought check in TreasuryShareRound). This activates the correct 
check that prevents selling after buying.

Stefan

On Friday 16 July 2010 22:47:37 brett lentz wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:
> > In Rails, all sell *actions* of shares of the same company (without
> > intervening buy action) constitute one *transaction*, for the purpose of
> > price setting and/or price movement.
> >
> > The one game that necessitates this behaviour is 1835, where most
> > companies have both (non-president) 10% and 20%, or 5% and 10% share
> > certificates. The Rails selling mechanic allows selling only one such
> > share unit type in one *action*. So if you want to sell one 5% share and
> > one 10% share of PR at the same price, two actions are required to make
> > one transaction.
> >
> > That's the main reason behind this behaviour. And yes, it precludes
> > repeated selling in one turn at a lower price after each action, as some
> > people would like to have it. We could add an option that allows this,
> > but that option, when selected, would have a probably unwanted side
> > effect on 1835.
>
> I would like to see this option exist, but only for games that allow
> it. Perhaps a game-specific XML option is the way to go here?
>
> > Erik.
>
> ---Brett.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Phil Davies [mailto:de...@gm...]
> > Sent: Friday 16 July 2010 10:28
> > To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a share
> > twicein one turn
> >
> > I don't believe there is a general consensus among all players but I
> > would like to think that the prevailing opinion is that in games where
> > selling a 'block' of shares causes a price drop, you cannot sell 1,
> > then sell 1, then sell 1 without passing in between and allowing other
> > people to react.  If you specifically want to sell to drop the price
> > and are happy to take the hit then you have to sell, let the other
> > players have a turn each to react, then sell again.
> >
> > Now, this refers to stock round actions and 1851 where a company is
> > selling/buying is an operating round action.  It's not clear from the
> > rules I agree but the way we always play these games face to face is
> > that each company gets one 'transaction', that is either sell or buy,
> > and if you can do as many certs as you like in that transaction.  We
> > mostly apply this to EU.
> >
> > This is only really an issue when you drop one row per block, that
> > doesn't happen in 1851, so despite the fact that the 'correct' way of
> > doing it would be to just choose to sell all the shares you want in
> > the first transaction, someone could theoretically sell 1, sell 1,
> > sell 1 and it won't make any difference to the gamestate than selling
> > 3 in one transaction, so in this case it should be allowed (despite
> > the fact that the user could just click 'undo' then sell the correct
> > number of shares as a faster way of doing it.  I'm just trying to
> > think of what makes a more pleasant user experience, they shouldn't
> > really be left confused because they didn't spot the dropdown box on
> > the sell screen
> >
> > Phil
> >
> > On 15 July 2010 22:49, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:
> >> A current open bug report for 1851:
> >>> When I try to sell a second company share during that company's
> >>> operating round, Rails says I can't sell after buying. This appears to
> >>> be inconsistent with the rules.
> >>
> >> refers to the fact that it is not possible to sell other shares from the
> >> Treasury after a first sell transaction (and the error message is
> >
> > confusing).
> >
> >> Question is, similar to the discussion we had previously on selling in
> >> separate transactions but same player turn in 1835, 1830 and 1870:
> >>
> >> Should the second transaction use the initial price at the start of the
> >> players turn (thus identical to the one used for the first transaction)
> >> or the reduced price taking the the stock market reaction into account?
> >>
> >> I have not found a ruling in 1851, thus I am inclined to follow the
> >
> > current
> >
> >> standard implementation in Rails (identical to the first transaction),
> >> however - if I remember correctly - there was no general consensus for
> >
> > this
> >
> >> (at least for 1830).
> >>
> >> Stefan
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >--- --
> >
> >> This SF.net email is sponsored by Sprint
> >> What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
> >> Visit sprint.com/first -- http://p.sf.net/sfu/sprint-com-first
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Rails-devel mailing list
> >> Rai...@li...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > What will you do first with EVO, the first 4G phone?
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> > Rai...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
> >
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Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a sharetwicein one turn

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

I have added a new game option that influences the prices for subsequent
sell actions of the same company in one turn.
The default remains, that the price stays the same. This behaviour can now
be disabled, so that subsequent sell actions are executed at decreasing
prices. 

It now works for 1830 only. Some more work on the code is needed to add
other games. I will do that if we agree that this is the way to go.

Erik.

-----Original Message-----
From: brett lentz [mailto:bre...@gm...] 
Sent: Friday 16 July 2010 22:48
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a
sharetwicein one turn

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:
> In Rails, all sell *actions* of shares of the same company (without
> intervening buy action) constitute one *transaction*, for the purpose of
> price setting and/or price movement.
>
> The one game that necessitates this behaviour is 1835, where most
companies
> have both (non-president) 10% and 20%, or 5% and 10% share certificates.
The
> Rails selling mechanic allows selling only one such share unit type in one
> *action*. So if you want to sell one 5% share and one 10% share of PR at
the
> same price, two actions are required to make one transaction.
>
> That's the main reason behind this behaviour. And yes, it precludes
repeated
> selling in one turn at a lower price after each action, as some people
would
> like to have it. We could add an option that allows this, but that option,
> when selected, would have a probably unwanted side effect on 1835.
>

I would like to see this option exist, but only for games that allow
it. Perhaps a game-specific XML option is the way to go here?

> Erik.

---Brett.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Davies [mailto:de...@gm...]
> Sent: Friday 16 July 2010 10:28
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a share
> twicein one turn
>
> I don't believe there is a general consensus among all players but I
> would like to think that the prevailing opinion is that in games where
> selling a 'block' of shares causes a price drop, you cannot sell 1,
> then sell 1, then sell 1 without passing in between and allowing other
> people to react.  If you specifically want to sell to drop the price
> and are happy to take the hit then you have to sell, let the other
> players have a turn each to react, then sell again.
>
> Now, this refers to stock round actions and 1851 where a company is
> selling/buying is an operating round action.  It's not clear from the
> rules I agree but the way we always play these games face to face is
> that each company gets one 'transaction', that is either sell or buy,
> and if you can do as many certs as you like in that transaction.  We
> mostly apply this to EU.
>
> This is only really an issue when you drop one row per block, that
> doesn't happen in 1851, so despite the fact that the 'correct' way of
> doing it would be to just choose to sell all the shares you want in
> the first transaction, someone could theoretically sell 1, sell 1,
> sell 1 and it won't make any difference to the gamestate than selling
> 3 in one transaction, so in this case it should be allowed (despite
> the fact that the user could just click 'undo' then sell the correct
> number of shares as a faster way of doing it.  I'm just trying to
> think of what makes a more pleasant user experience, they shouldn't
> really be left confused because they didn't spot the dropdown box on
> the sell screen
>
> Phil
>
> On 15 July 2010 22:49, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:
>> A current open bug report for 1851:
>>> When I try to sell a second company share during that company's
operating
>>> round, Rails says I can't sell after buying. This appears to be
>>> inconsistent with the rules.
>> refers to the fact that it is not possible to sell other shares from the
>> Treasury after a first sell transaction (and the error message is
> confusing).
>>
>> Question is, similar to the discussion we had previously on selling in
>> separate transactions but same player turn in 1835, 1830 and 1870:
>>
>> Should the second transaction use the initial price at the start of the
>> players turn (thus identical to the one used for the first transaction)
or
>> the reduced price taking the the stock market reaction into account?
>>
>> I have not found a ruling in 1851, thus I am inclined to follow the
> current
>> standard implementation in Rails (identical to the first transaction),
>> however - if I remember correctly - there was no general consensus for
> this
>> (at least for 1830).
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
>
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>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>
>
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Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a sharetwicein one turn

[John D. G. <jd...@di...>]

Erik Vos wrote:
> I have added a new game option that influences the prices for subsequent
> sell actions of the same company in one turn.
> The default remains, that the price stays the same. This behaviour can now
> be disabled, so that subsequent sell actions are executed at decreasing
> prices. 
> 
> It now works for 1830 only. Some more work on the code is needed to add
> other games. I will do that if we agree that this is the way to go.

I hope this option can be enabled on a per-use basis, not just at start of
game, since it is something a player will only rarely want to do (I can't
think of any use for it except to set up an intentional bankruptcy).

As for other games, I assume most games will not allow it, but 18AL/18GA
should.

Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a sharetwicein one turn

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

For now it's all or nothing, I'm afraid. I don't remember who asked for it
(I thought it was you), but at least some people argued that decreasing
prices should be the normal state of affairs - which I didn't agree with,
but it was an easy option to add.

What you really want, it seems, is that on a second sale action, in the same
turn and for the same company, there should be an option to sell at either
the original or the new (lower) price. I think that's doable, but not
trivial, and moreover that additional option should be offered in an
unintrusive way - I wonder if it's really worth the effort.

Erik.

-----Original Message-----
From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...] 
Sent: Sunday 01 August 2010 19:16
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a
sharetwicein one turn

Erik Vos wrote:
> I have added a new game option that influences the prices for subsequent
> sell actions of the same company in one turn.
> The default remains, that the price stays the same. This behaviour can now
> be disabled, so that subsequent sell actions are executed at decreasing
> prices. 
> 
> It now works for 1830 only. Some more work on the code is needed to add
> other games. I will do that if we agree that this is the way to go.

I hope this option can be enabled on a per-use basis, not just at start of
game, since it is something a player will only rarely want to do (I can't
think of any use for it except to set up an intentional bankruptcy).

As for other games, I assume most games will not allow it, but 18AL/18GA
should.

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Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a sharetwicein one turn

[John D. G. <jd...@di...>]

Erik Vos wrote:
> For now it's all or nothing, I'm afraid. I don't remember who asked for it
> (I thought it was you), but at least some people argued that decreasing
> prices should be the normal state of affairs - which I didn't agree with,
> but it was an easy option to add.
> 
> What you really want, it seems, is that on a second sale action, in the same
> turn and for the same company, there should be an option to sell at either
> the original or the new (lower) price. I think that's doable, but not
> trivial, and moreover that additional option should be offered in an
> unintrusive way - I wonder if it's really worth the effort.

I would just put it on the Special menu as a mode you can toggle on/off.

Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a share twice in one turn

[NetGamer <net...@tw...>]

I filed this bug. Phil hit the nail on the head - I didn't catch there 
being a drop down to allow selecting more than one share to put in the 
pool at once and was expecting to be able to repeat the action - as 
desired.

To the other point that was raised around the net impact being the same: 
1851 ruleset is a bit different but is intended to be more friendly to 
new players. Selling off a treasury share one at a time during one's 
operating round would be in the spirit of the design - more friendly.

-Ron

Phil Davies wrote:
> I don't believe there is a general consensus among all players but I
> would like to think that the prevailing opinion is that in games where
> selling a 'block' of shares causes a price drop, you cannot sell 1,
> then sell 1, then sell 1 without passing in between and allowing other
> people to react.  If you specifically want to sell to drop the price
> and are happy to take the hit then you have to sell, let the other
> players have a turn each to react, then sell again.
>
> Now, this refers to stock round actions and 1851 where a company is
> selling/buying is an operating round action.  It's not clear from the
> rules I agree but the way we always play these games face to face is
> that each company gets one 'transaction', that is either sell or buy,
> and if you can do as many certs as you like in that transaction.  We
> mostly apply this to EU.
>
> This is only really an issue when you drop one row per block, that
> doesn't happen in 1851, so despite the fact that the 'correct' way of
> doing it would be to just choose to sell all the shares you want in
> the first transaction, someone could theoretically sell 1, sell 1,
> sell 1 and it won't make any difference to the gamestate than selling
> 3 in one transaction, so in this case it should be allowed (despite
> the fact that the user could just click 'undo' then sell the correct
> number of shares as a faster way of doing it.  I'm just trying to
> think of what makes a more pleasant user experience, they shouldn't
> really be left confused because they didn't spot the dropdown box on
> the sell screen
>
> Phil
>
> On 15 July 2010 22:49, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:
>   
>> A current open bug report for 1851:
>>     
>>> When I try to sell a second company share during that company's operating
>>> round, Rails says I can't sell after buying. This appears to be
>>> inconsistent with the rules.
>>>       
>> refers to the fact that it is not possible to sell other shares from the
>> Treasury after a first sell transaction (and the error message is confusing).
>>
>> Question is, similar to the discussion we had previously on selling in
>> separate transactions but same player turn in 1835, 1830 and 1870:
>>
>> Should the second transaction use the initial price at the start of the
>> players turn (thus identical to the one used for the first transaction) or
>> the reduced price taking the the stock market reaction into account?
>>
>> I have not found a ruling in 1851, thus I am inclined to follow the current
>> standard implementation in Rails (identical to the first transaction),
>> however - if I remember correctly - there was no general consensus for this
>> (at least for 1830).
>>
>> Stefan
>>
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Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a sharetwicein one turn

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

> We could add an option that allows this, but that option,
> when selected, would have a probably unwanted side effect on 1835.
>

I would like to see this option exist, but only for games that allow
it. 

[EV] Meaning: all games except 1835?

Erik.

Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a sharetwicein one turn

[brett l. <bre...@gm...>]

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:
>> We could add an option that allows this, but that option,
>> when selected, would have a probably unwanted side effect on 1835.
>>
>
> I would like to see this option exist, but only for games that allow
> it.
>
> [EV] Meaning: all games except 1835?

For now, I think that's true.  It may not remain true as more games
are implemented.

> Erik.

---Brett.

Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a share twice in one turn

[John D. G. <jd...@di...>]

Phil Davies wrote:
> I don't believe there is a general consensus among all players but I
> would like to think that the prevailing opinion is that in games where
> selling a 'block' of shares causes a price drop, you cannot sell 1,
> then sell 1, then sell 1 without passing in between and allowing other
> people to react.  If you specifically want to sell to drop the price
> and are happy to take the hit then you have to sell, let the other
> players have a turn each to react, then sell again.

Bruce Shelley's errata for 1830 (published in The General) specifically
allows this "multiple separate sales on same turn" if the player wants to
do it.  About the only reason for doing so is to go deliberately bankrupt.

I would allow it in most 1830-derived games (those with 2-D stock markets).
In particular I would allow it in 18AL and 18GA because their rules were
derived from 1830.

I would not allow it in 1835 (because "drop only once per turn" should take
precedence in that game) or 1870 (because prices in that game never drop
until the president of each company sold decides not to price protect).

Re: [Rails-devel] 1851 - Operating Company can't sell a share twice in one turn

[brett l. <bre...@gm...>]

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 8:10 PM, John David Galt
<jd...@di...> wrote:
> Phil Davies wrote:
>> I don't believe there is a general consensus among all players but I
>> would like to think that the prevailing opinion is that in games where
>> selling a 'block' of shares causes a price drop, you cannot sell 1,
>> then sell 1, then sell 1 without passing in between and allowing other
>> people to react.  If you specifically want to sell to drop the price
>> and are happy to take the hit then you have to sell, let the other
>> players have a turn each to react, then sell again.
>
> Bruce Shelley's errata for 1830 (published in The General) specifically
> allows this "multiple separate sales on same turn" if the player wants to
> do it.  About the only reason for doing so is to go deliberately bankrupt.
>
> I would allow it in most 1830-derived games (those with 2-D stock markets).
> In particular I would allow it in 18AL and 18GA because their rules were
> derived from 1830.
>
> I would not allow it in 1835 (because "drop only once per turn" should take
> precedence in that game) or 1870 (because prices in that game never drop
> until the president of each company sold decides not to price protect).


Other reasons to do it, especially in 1870, also include things like
deliberately avoiding dropping the stock value below a "shelf" or
purposely taking advantage of the price protection mechanics to
manipulate the number of stock purchasing turns a player does or
doesn't get.

In some games I've played, players also want to have exact dollar
amounts in hand for various reasons, but most of the time this is for
'56 or '70, not '30. Whether it's a "good" strategy or not is
debatable, but is also irrelevant when discussing what the software
should do. The software should not judge the validity of a strategy or
prevent you from throwing the game just because taking a certain
action achieves a loss 9 times out of 10. As long as the UI clearly
allows you to sell N number of shares in M number of actions with no
confusion as to what the outcome will be, then each action should be a
separate transaction and trigger a separate evaluation of the rules
for dropping the stock price.


---Brett.