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From: Rick W. <wes...@pu...> - 2010-01-11 01:54:24
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This may another one of those "I should not go there" type of
questions. If so apologies in advance. Or I may be missing something
obvious. At the moment I am learning the source of Rails via
experimentation rather than intensive reading of the code.
=============
A tile for a given game is defined in three places:
The per-game TileSet.xml seems reasonable as it has a list of the
tiles in the given game, quantity of tiles, upgrade path, and which
SVG picture to use.
The per-game Tiles.xml has the same list of tiles but this time
with the colour of the tile (not the actual color on the time but the
color phase), how many cities and towns and their positions; values
of the cities/towns and a list of how the track is laid out (e.g.,
from side 0 to side 2, from side 1 to side 5).
The whole-rails SVG files have the graphics for each of the tiles.
Now for a given tile the relationship of the tile's SVG file and
the tile's entry in Tiles.xml is fixed. In other words I can not a
take a tile in the Tiles.xml file and change its track layout from
'side 0 to side 2' to 'side 0 to side 3' and expect that the tile
will show up properly. Instead it will retain it's SVG
representation. Ditto if I try to change the number of cities or
their position. So ... why not have a global Tiles.xml file with
three items in it and reduce the duplication across the games? That
would make the per-game Tiles.xml smaller and more readable (and thus
easier to debug). And/or combine the reduced per-game Tiles.xml file
into the TileSet.xml file thus reducing another source of duplication
and error.
As I said this may have been hashed out before and there may be
good reasons for the above files. In any case I will deal with what
is current.
=============
BTW#1: Is there any routine to display all of the SVG files?
BTW#2: The README in the 'tiles' directory says that the XML
files in said directory are not important. IMHO it should also say
that the svg sub-directory is critically important. As you can
imagine by my comment it took me a while to realize the importance of
said directory.
-- Rick
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From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-01-11 22:40:27
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This may another one of those "I should not go there" type of questions.
If so apologies in advance. Or I may be missing something obvious. At the
moment I am learning the source of Rails via experimentation rather than
intensive reading of the code.
Feel free to ask any questions; however, I can't guarantee that the answer
is always welcome.
A tile for a given game is defined in three places:
The per-game TileSet.xml seems reasonable as it has a list of the tiles
in the given game, quantity of tiles, upgrade path, and which SVG picture to
use.
The per-game Tiles.xml has the same list of tiles but this time with the
colour of the tile (not the actual color on the time but the color phase),
how many cities and towns and their positions; values of the cities/towns
and a list of how the track is laid out (e.g., from side 0 to side 2, from
side 1 to side 5).
The whole-rails SVG files have the graphics for each of the tiles.
Now for a given tile the relationship of the tile's SVG file and the
tile's entry in Tiles.xml is fixed. In other words I can not a take a tile
in the Tiles.xml file and change its track layout from 'side 0 to side 2' to
'side 0 to side 3' and expect that the tile will show up properly. Instead
it will retain it's SVG representation. Ditto if I try to change the number
of cities or their position. So ... why not have a global Tiles.xml file
with three items in it and reduce the duplication across the games? That
would make the per-game Tiles.xml smaller and more readable (and thus easier
to debug). And/or combine the reduced per-game Tiles.xml file into the
TileSet.xml file thus reducing another source of duplication and error.
1. Why do we have separate TileSet.xml and Tiles.xml?
TileSet.xml contains the game-specific tile properties, and Tiles.xml has
the game-independent tile properties. The latter file is generated by
rails.util.MakeGameTileSets (a stand-alone Java class/program) from
TileSet.xml and the overall Tiles.xml file that has *all* tiles (this file
and several other files that I'm going to mention are in directory
18xx/tiles of the CVS repository on Sourceforge). This program also checks
TileSet.xml against Map.xml for consistency.
2. Why do we have separate XMLand SVG files? That is because we use an SVG
renderer that understands SVG, whereas both I and the Java code I have
written only understand XML. And I doubt if the twain will ever meet.
3. Where do Tiles.xml and the SVG files come from?
Ultimately everything comes from a tile database named TileDesigner.18t
created by Marco Rocci's TileDesigner program (see
http://www.rails18xx.it/software.html). In the mean time I have added a lot
of tiles to Marco's original tile set. From that database I export both the
SVG tiles and an XML descriptive file called TileDesigner.xml.
The SVG export is somewhat buggy. Originally Brett fixed that by a procedure
that I don't have the details of. I have recently taken over and I'm now
using a procedure described in the comments of a Perl script named
CombineTiles.pl. That script builds the Rails SVG file set by combining
parts from three sets of SVG files:
- tiles with ID > 0 (layable tiles, the ID is printed on the tile).
- tiles with ID <=0 (preprinted tiles, no ID on the tile; this is a separate
export from TileDesigner)
- special tiles that I have modified manually with Inkscape (such as the red
off-board tiles -901 throught -903, which TileDesigner cannot create with
"arrows". So for these tiles the XML does *not* exactly correspond with the
SVG!).
The XML export (TileDesigner.xml) is converted by another Java program/class
named rails.util.ConvertTiles into the overall Tiles.xml that I mentioned
before. I'm doing this conversion because I think that the latter format is
better suitable for use in Rails.
4. Why is this procedure so complex?
Well, we're doing the best we can with the limited knowledge and imperfect
tools that we have.
BTW#1: Is there any routine to display all of the SVG files?
No. Only TileDesigner has everything.
BTW#2: The README in the 'tiles' directory says that the XML files in
said directory are not important. IMHO it should also say that the svg
sub-directory is critically important. As you can imagine by my comment it
took me a while to realize the importance of said directory
It doesn't say that these aren't important, it only says that these are not
[directly] used by Rails. These files in fact do form the basis of the
per-game tile sets, as I hope I have explained well enough above.
Erik
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From: Rick W. <wes...@pu...> - 2010-01-11 23:31:32
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>
> TileSet.xml contains the game-specific tile properties, and
> Tiles.xml has the game-independent tile properties. The latter file
> is generated by rails.util.MakeGameTileSets (a stand-alone Java
> class/program) from TileSet.xml and the overall Tiles.xml file that
> has *all* tiles (this file and several other files that I'm going
> to mention are in directory 18xx/tiles of the CVS repository on
> Sourceforge). This program also checks TileSet.xml against Map.xml
> for consistency.
>
Eric:
Thank you for the extensive reply. Knowing that there is the
MakeGameTileSets program to autogenerate the per-game Tiles.xml and
to check the Map.xml file is a big help. Although I do wonder why
you don't simply read in the global Tiles files and use that. But,
knowing XML, perhaps that is too much of a strain on the program.
Anyway can you give this poor ol' non-Java programmer a short
hint on how to run MakeGameTileSets? I am getting a
'NoClassDefError' on org/apache/log4j/logger when I try to run the
class directly. I am probably doing something painfully obviously
wrong.
Thanks,
-- Rick
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From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-01-13 18:35:03
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Thank you for the extensive reply. Knowing that there is the
MakeGameTileSets program to autogenerate the per-game Tiles.xml and to check
the Map.xml file is
a big help. Although I do wonder why you don't simply read in
the global Tiles files and use that. But, knowing XML, perhaps that is too
much of a strain on the program.
XML parsing is slow. I don't like wasting CPU time and memory.
Anyway can you give this poor ol' non-Java programmer a short hint on how
to run MakeGameTileSets? I am getting a 'NoClassDefError' on
org/apache/log4j/logger when I try to run the class directly. I am probably
doing something painfully obviously wrong.
I'm running it from within my development environment from a .bat file with
java -cp
\projects\Rails\18xx\classes;\Projects\Rails\18xx\lib\log4j-1.2\log4j-1.2.14
.jar rails.util.MakeGameTileSets %1 %2 %3 %4 %5 %6 %7 %8 %9
where \projects\Rails\18xx\classes is the directory below which the unpacked
Rails .class files are.
I suppose you can replace that part with path of the the rails .jar file,
which contains the same. You may have to experiment a bit.
Erik.
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From: Rick W. <wes...@pu...> - 2010-01-11 23:48:36
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On the really-neat side of life, I was able to use an '<IfOption' within a Map.xml file. I was uncertain if it would work since none of the existing games use that feature. Although we probably could expand 1830 and 1835 in this manner since they have published map variants. -- Rick |
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From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-01-13 18:35:53
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Yes, <IfOption> is a generic feature that should be honoured by all Rails XML files. -----Original Message----- From: Rick Westerman [mailto:wes...@pu...] Sent: Tuesday 12 January 2010 00:49 To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game Subject: [Rails-devel] IfOption in Map.xml On the really-neat side of life, I was able to use an '<IfOption' within a Map.xml file. I was uncertain if it would work since none of the existing games use that feature. Although we probably could expand 1830 and 1835 in this manner since they have published map variants. -- Rick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app distribution fast and easy Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev _______________________________________________ Rails-devel mailing list Rai...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel |
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From: Rick W. <wes...@pu...> - 2010-01-13 18:41:54
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Erik Vos wrote: > Yes, <IfOption> is a generic feature that should be honoured by all Rails > XML files. > I think I have found one place where it is not. But there may be a work-around. The place is in the 'GameManager' component within the 'Game.xml' file. The GameManager is, of course, where the GameOptions are defined so this may be a clue to the problem. Or as usual I might be doing something wrong. Anyway I wanted to change the PlayerShareLimit based on a GameOption. Could not do it in there. Other component sections in Game.xml do accept options. -- Rick |
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From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-01-13 20:24:14
|
Hmm, yes, apparently the options cannot be used on the same level where these are defined (although in fact the IfOption tags are processed first). Perhaps these should be lifted out of the Component tags entirely. If you think it's really important, I could have another look at it. Erik. -----Original Message----- From: Rick Westerman [mailto:wes...@pu...] Sent: Wednesday 13 January 2010 19:42 To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] IfOption in Map.xml Erik Vos wrote: > Yes, <IfOption> is a generic feature that should be honoured by all Rails > XML files. > I think I have found one place where it is not. But there may be a work-around. The place is in the 'GameManager' component within the 'Game.xml' file. The GameManager is, of course, where the GameOptions are defined so this may be a clue to the problem. Or as usual I might be doing something wrong. Anyway I wanted to change the PlayerShareLimit based on a GameOption. Could not do it in there. Other component sections in Game.xml do accept options. -- Rick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app distribution fast and easy Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev _______________________________________________ Rails-devel mailing list Rai...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel |
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From: Rick W. <wes...@pu...> - 2010-01-13 20:28:56
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Erik Vos wrote:
> Hmm, yes, apparently the options cannot be used on the same level
> where these are defined (although in fact the IfOption tags are processed
> first).
> Perhaps these should be lifted out of the Component tags entirely.
> If you think it's really important, I could have another look at it.
>
Well, yes, it is important. Two reasons:
First is silly since 2-player 18xx is silly but for many 2-player
variants the holding limit is raised from 60% to 70%.
Second is important. As I recall a couple of Tresham's titles ('25,
'53 if I have this correct) have a variable share limit depending on the
number of players. So at some point this point will have to be addressed.
> Erik.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Westerman [mailto:wes...@pu...]
> Sent: Wednesday 13 January 2010 19:42
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] IfOption in Map.xml
>
> Erik Vos wrote:
>
>> Yes, <IfOption> is a generic feature that should be honoured by all Rails
>> XML files.
>>
>>
> I think I have found one place where it is not. But there may be a
> work-around.
>
> The place is in the 'GameManager' component within the 'Game.xml'
> file. The GameManager is, of course, where the GameOptions are defined
> so this may be a clue to the problem. Or as usual I might be doing
> something wrong. Anyway I wanted to change the PlayerShareLimit based
> on a GameOption. Could not do it in there. Other component sections in
> Game.xml do accept options.
>
>
>
>
--
Rick Westerman wes...@pu... Bioinformatics specialist at the
Genomics Facility. Phone: (765) 494-0505 FAX: (765) 496-7255 Department
of Horticulture and Landscape Architecture 625 Agriculture Mall Drive
West Lafayette, IN 47907-2010 Physically located in room S049, WSLR
building
|
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From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-01-15 20:13:36
|
<IfOption> in GameManager did not work because the game options were not
passed down the Tag hierarchy from the top in that part of the tree.
Now they do. I have put the 2-player 70% limit in 1830/Game.xml and it works
for me.
Actually, I wonder if there shouldn't be an additional GameOption to enable
that conditional replacement of 60% by 70%.
I found that the GameOptions in Game.xml are parsed but not used, so these
are in fact redundant.
For a while I'll leave them in. I could use these to validate the selected
options from the UI.
In principle everything that comes from the UI should be validated.
But in this case the price of having duplicate GameOption specs might be too
high.
While I was at it, I found the GameManager contents a bit messy and have
added another level by changing the structure of the GameManager component
by putting <GameParameters> and <GuiClasses> tags around some of the
existing tags. I would have done something similar for the GameOptions, if
these wouldn't have turned out redundant.
Rick, sorry for your documentation work - I'm afraid it will have to
describe this additional level!
But I think it's more logical this way.
BTW in the code I'm also increasingly making a sharp distinction between
values that exist in the game engine only, and those that are shared with
the GUI. This should help making a future client/server split easier to do;
but I think we are still pretty far away from that enhancement.
Erik.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Westerman [mailto:wes...@pu...]
Sent: Wednesday 13 January 2010 21:29
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] IfOption in Map.xml
Erik Vos wrote:
> Hmm, yes, apparently the options cannot be used on the same level
> where these are defined (although in fact the IfOption tags are processed
> first).
> Perhaps these should be lifted out of the Component tags entirely.
> If you think it's really important, I could have another look at it.
>
Well, yes, it is important. Two reasons:
First is silly since 2-player 18xx is silly but for many 2-player
variants the holding limit is raised from 60% to 70%.
Second is important. As I recall a couple of Tresham's titles ('25,
'53 if I have this correct) have a variable share limit depending on the
number of players. So at some point this point will have to be addressed.
> Erik.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Westerman [mailto:wes...@pu...]
> Sent: Wednesday 13 January 2010 19:42
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] IfOption in Map.xml
>
> Erik Vos wrote:
>
>> Yes, <IfOption> is a generic feature that should be honoured by all Rails
>> XML files.
>>
>>
> I think I have found one place where it is not. But there may be a
> work-around.
>
> The place is in the 'GameManager' component within the 'Game.xml'
> file. The GameManager is, of course, where the GameOptions are defined
> so this may be a clue to the problem. Or as usual I might be doing
> something wrong. Anyway I wanted to change the PlayerShareLimit based
> on a GameOption. Could not do it in there. Other component sections in
> Game.xml do accept options.
>
>
>
>
--
Rick Westerman wes...@pu... Bioinformatics specialist at the
Genomics Facility. Phone: (765) 494-0505 FAX: (765) 496-7255 Department
of Horticulture and Landscape Architecture 625 Agriculture Mall Drive
West Lafayette, IN 47907-2010 Physically located in room S049, WSLR
building
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community
Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app distribution fast and easy
Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers
http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev
_______________________________________________
Rails-devel mailing list
Rai...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
|
|
From: Jim B. <jim...@ya...> - 2010-01-15 20:50:11
|
I wanted to interject a couple of comments related to the xml-
a) in the privates auction- it's nice to see the privates info under the info (i) button, but it sure is cryptic. could a textual description be added to the xml record, so that annotation/text displays instead? (if present)
b) afaik, I can't get back to that help info later- that's problematic (the info is often critical, when you're trying to use the private)
c) similar comment applies to trains- it's nice that the roster is listed in 1.1.1, albeit tersely- the rusting info is a key omission, in practice
so, someday- throughout the game- maybe when you hover-over a private, a train-inventory, a particular major, etc- the help text could show in a popup.
in general, rails' users might could use a little more care-and-feeding, in this area. %-}
this seems related to the thread issues here, but, my apologies if it's too tangential- just wanted to slip these comments in.
- jim
On Jan 15, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Erik Vos wrote:
> <IfOption> in GameManager did not work because the game options were not
> passed down the Tag hierarchy from the top in that part of the tree.
> Now they do. I have put the 2-player 70% limit in 1830/Game.xml and it works
> for me.
> Actually, I wonder if there shouldn't be an additional GameOption to enable
> that conditional replacement of 60% by 70%.
>
> I found that the GameOptions in Game.xml are parsed but not used, so these
> are in fact redundant.
> For a while I'll leave them in. I could use these to validate the selected
> options from the UI.
> In principle everything that comes from the UI should be validated.
> But in this case the price of having duplicate GameOption specs might be too
> high.
>
> While I was at it, I found the GameManager contents a bit messy and have
> added another level by changing the structure of the GameManager component
> by putting <GameParameters> and <GuiClasses> tags around some of the
> existing tags. I would have done something similar for the GameOptions, if
> these wouldn't have turned out redundant.
> Rick, sorry for your documentation work - I'm afraid it will have to
> describe this additional level!
> But I think it's more logical this way.
>
> BTW in the code I'm also increasingly making a sharp distinction between
> values that exist in the game engine only, and those that are shared with
> the GUI. This should help making a future client/server split easier to do;
> but I think we are still pretty far away from that enhancement.
>
> Erik.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Westerman [mailto:wes...@pu...]
> Sent: Wednesday 13 January 2010 21:29
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] IfOption in Map.xml
>
> Erik Vos wrote:
>> Hmm, yes, apparently the options cannot be used on the same level
>> where these are defined (although in fact the IfOption tags are processed
>> first).
>> Perhaps these should be lifted out of the Component tags entirely.
>> If you think it's really important, I could have another look at it.
>>
> Well, yes, it is important. Two reasons:
>
> First is silly since 2-player 18xx is silly but for many 2-player
> variants the holding limit is raised from 60% to 70%.
>
> Second is important. As I recall a couple of Tresham's titles ('25,
> '53 if I have this correct) have a variable share limit depending on the
> number of players. So at some point this point will have to be addressed.
>
>> Erik.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rick Westerman [mailto:wes...@pu...]
>> Sent: Wednesday 13 January 2010 19:42
>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] IfOption in Map.xml
>>
>> Erik Vos wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, <IfOption> is a generic feature that should be honoured by all Rails
>>> XML files.
>>>
>>>
>> I think I have found one place where it is not. But there may be a
>> work-around.
>>
>> The place is in the 'GameManager' component within the 'Game.xml'
>> file. The GameManager is, of course, where the GameOptions are defined
>> so this may be a clue to the problem. Or as usual I might be doing
>> something wrong. Anyway I wanted to change the PlayerShareLimit based
>> on a GameOption. Could not do it in there. Other component sections in
>> Game.xml do accept options.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Rick Westerman wes...@pu... Bioinformatics specialist at the
> Genomics Facility. Phone: (765) 494-0505 FAX: (765) 496-7255 Department
> of Horticulture and Landscape Architecture 625 Agriculture Mall Drive
> West Lafayette, IN 47907-2010 Physically located in room S049, WSLR
> building
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community
> Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
> A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app distribution fast and easy
> Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Throughout its 18-year history, RSA Conference consistently attracts the
> world's best and brightest in the field, creating opportunities for Conference
> attendees to learn about information security's most important issues through
> interactions with peers, luminaries and emerging and established companies.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsaconf-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
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From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-01-15 22:52:10
|
I don't know what kind of stories you would put there; I find the current private info is pretty complete. And so far the assumption pretty much was that users were up to date on the rules. Including the game rules certainly isn't in the scope of this project. But sure it can be done. For instance an (optional) extra <Info> tag per company and train type. Such train and private info could nicely be made visible as extra items under the Info menu in the Map/OR window. I can write the code, but I need a volunteer to write the texts. Anyone? Erik. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Black [mailto:jim...@ya...] Sent: Friday 15 January 2010 21:50 To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] IfOption in Map.xml I wanted to interject a couple of comments related to the xml- a) in the privates auction- it's nice to see the privates info under the info (i) button, but it sure is cryptic. could a textual description be added to the xml record, so that annotation/text displays instead? (if present) b) afaik, I can't get back to that help info later- that's problematic (the info is often critical, when you're trying to use the private) c) similar comment applies to trains- it's nice that the roster is listed in 1.1.1, albeit tersely- the rusting info is a key omission, in practice so, someday- throughout the game- maybe when you hover-over a private, a train-inventory, a particular major, etc- the help text could show in a popup. in general, rails' users might could use a little more care-and-feeding, in this area. %-} this seems related to the thread issues here, but, my apologies if it's too tangential- just wanted to slip these comments in. - jim |
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From: Phil D. <de...@gm...> - 2010-01-16 01:09:41
|
I'm happy to write up info text, Can do this for 18EU or 1870 which I both own which is a good start, after that I'd be reliant on other sources for solid data for input. I'd agree with the approach of not being too overt with the rules. There are certain things that might be a nice assistance such as when trains rust but I wouldn't want to put in too much data in this regard, just clean, simple reminders of certain key points 2010/1/15 Erik Vos <eri...@xs...>: > I don't know what kind of stories you would put there; I find the current > private info is pretty complete. > And so far the assumption pretty much was that users were up to date on the > rules. > Including the game rules certainly isn't in the scope of this project. > > But sure it can be done. For instance an (optional) extra <Info> tag per > company and train type. > Such train and private info could nicely be made visible as extra items > under the Info menu in the Map/OR window. > > I can write the code, but I need a volunteer to write the texts. Anyone? > > Erik. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Black [mailto:jim...@ya...] > Sent: Friday 15 January 2010 21:50 > To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game > Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] IfOption in Map.xml > > > I wanted to interject a couple of comments related to the xml- > > a) in the privates auction- it's nice to see the privates info under the > info (i) button, but it sure is cryptic. could a textual description be > added to the xml record, so that annotation/text displays instead? (if > present) > > b) afaik, I can't get back to that help info later- that's problematic (the > info is often critical, when you're trying to use the private) > > c) similar comment applies to trains- it's nice that the roster is listed in > 1.1.1, albeit tersely- the rusting info is a key omission, in practice > > so, someday- throughout the game- maybe when you hover-over a private, a > train-inventory, a particular major, etc- the help text could show in a > popup. > > in general, rails' users might could use a little more care-and-feeding, in > this area. %-} > > this seems related to the thread issues here, but, my apologies if it's too > tangential- just wanted to slip these comments in. > > - jim > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Throughout its 18-year history, RSA Conference consistently attracts the > world's best and brightest in the field, creating opportunities for Conference > attendees to learn about information security's most important issues through > interactions with peers, luminaries and emerging and established companies. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsaconf-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > |
|
From: Aliza P. <ali...@gm...> - 2010-01-16 02:24:16
|
Many games include some form of player aid that spells out what changes in each phase of the game, that might be a good place to start. I'd be happy to try my hand at writing 1-line summaries of some of the 1856 unique features, like the rules for loans (shares in player hands) and conditional floating (shares sold out of IPO). 1870 would need a one-line explanation of price protection Any game that deviates from "one tile per company per OR" should have that mentioned. On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Phil Davies <de...@gm...> wrote: > I'm happy to write up info text, Can do this for 18EU or 1870 which I > both own which is a good start, after that I'd be reliant on other > sources for solid data for input. > > I'd agree with the approach of not being too overt with the rules. > There are certain things that might be a nice assistance such as when > trains rust but I wouldn't want to put in too much data in this > regard, just clean, simple reminders of certain key points > > 2010/1/15 Erik Vos <eri...@xs...>: >> I don't know what kind of stories you would put there; I find the current >> private info is pretty complete. >> And so far the assumption pretty much was that users were up to date on the >> rules. >> Including the game rules certainly isn't in the scope of this project. >> >> But sure it can be done. For instance an (optional) extra <Info> tag per >> company and train type. >> Such train and private info could nicely be made visible as extra items >> under the Info menu in the Map/OR window. >> >> I can write the code, but I need a volunteer to write the texts. Anyone? >> >> Erik. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jim Black [mailto:jim...@ya...] >> Sent: Friday 15 January 2010 21:50 >> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game >> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] IfOption in Map.xml >> >> >> I wanted to interject a couple of comments related to the xml- >> >> a) in the privates auction- it's nice to see the privates info under the >> info (i) button, but it sure is cryptic. could a textual description be >> added to the xml record, so that annotation/text displays instead? (if >> present) >> >> b) afaik, I can't get back to that help info later- that's problematic (the >> info is often critical, when you're trying to use the private) >> >> c) similar comment applies to trains- it's nice that the roster is listed in >> 1.1.1, albeit tersely- the rusting info is a key omission, in practice >> >> so, someday- throughout the game- maybe when you hover-over a private, a >> train-inventory, a particular major, etc- the help text could show in a >> popup. >> >> in general, rails' users might could use a little more care-and-feeding, in >> this area. %-} >> >> this seems related to the thread issues here, but, my apologies if it's too >> tangential- just wanted to slip these comments in. >> >> - jim >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Throughout its 18-year history, RSA Conference consistently attracts the >> world's best and brightest in the field, creating opportunities for Conference >> attendees to learn about information security's most important issues through >> interactions with peers, luminaries and emerging and established companies. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsaconf-dev2dev >> _______________________________________________ >> Rails-devel mailing list >> Rai...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Throughout its 18-year history, RSA Conference consistently attracts the > world's best and brightest in the field, creating opportunities for Conference > attendees to learn about information security's most important issues through > interactions with peers, luminaries and emerging and established companies. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsaconf-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > |
|
From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-01-16 13:59:08
|
There is one problem with such info if we put the full text in the XML:
it will be in one language only. For internationalisation we should
find a way to put the real text in the resource bundle, as we did
with all other text normally displayed in the UI (except the game
notes and credits included in Games.xml).
I think all we can do, if we want to remain multi-lingual, is to
define messages keys for each kind of feature we would like to be
descibed via the Info menu, and put the one-liners into the resource
bundle (LocalizedText.properties). Versions of this file in other
languages would be named like LocalizedText_fr.properties
(for French). These versions are picked up automatically once
a language is set in my.properties.
For private special properties it's easy to do, as each one has
a specialized class. Many of these already generate localized menu
item text under the Special menu.
For trains/phases we have a fairly limited set of features that
are worth describing this way - shouls also be easy to do.
To avoid proliferation of similar texts in the resource bundle,
texts should be as generic as possible, using placeholders
for variable text.
For instance, for an extra tile lay we could have something like:
"Allows laying a tile on {0}, {1}, {2}, {3}closing the private"
where
{0} will take the name of the hex where a tile can be laid,
{1} is "extra" or "not extra"
{2} is "free" or "not free"
{3} is "" or "not "
You can already see a slightly different form of such text in
the help text above the map if such special tile and token lays
can be done.
So far, these info texts can be made available automatically
under the Info menu. That may also apply to other specialties,
because most are already configured in the XML is some way,
if only by a game-specific class werhe it can be hardcoded.
I have more comments on trains and phases (which I think should
be considered separately), but that's for another time.
I'll try to make a start. In the meantime, any suggestions
for features to be mentioned and texts to be displayed are
welcome.
Erik.
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Davies [mailto:de...@gm...]
Sent: Saturday 16 January 2010 02:10
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] IfOption in Map.xml
I'm happy to write up info text, Can do this for 18EU or 1870 which I
both own which is a good start, after that I'd be reliant on other
sources for solid data for input.
I'd agree with the approach of not being too overt with the rules.
There are certain things that might be a nice assistance such as when
trains rust but I wouldn't want to put in too much data in this
regard, just clean, simple reminders of certain key points
2010/1/15 Erik Vos <eri...@xs...>:
> I don't know what kind of stories you would put there; I find the current
> private info is pretty complete.
> And so far the assumption pretty much was that users were up to date on
the
> rules.
> Including the game rules certainly isn't in the scope of this project.
>
> But sure it can be done. For instance an (optional) extra <Info> tag per
> company and train type.
> Such train and private info could nicely be made visible as extra items
> under the Info menu in the Map/OR window.
>
> I can write the code, but I need a volunteer to write the texts. Anyone?
>
> Erik.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Black [mailto:jim...@ya...]
> Sent: Friday 15 January 2010 21:50
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] IfOption in Map.xml
>
>
> I wanted to interject a couple of comments related to the xml-
>
> a) in the privates auction- it's nice to see the privates info under the
> info (i) button, but it sure is cryptic. could a textual description be
> added to the xml record, so that annotation/text displays instead? (if
> present)
>
> b) afaik, I can't get back to that help info later- that's problematic
(the
> info is often critical, when you're trying to use the private)
>
> c) similar comment applies to trains- it's nice that the roster is listed
in
> 1.1.1, albeit tersely- the rusting info is a key omission, in practice
>
> so, someday- throughout the game- maybe when you hover-over a private, a
> train-inventory, a particular major, etc- the help text could show in a
> popup.
>
> in general, rails' users might could use a little more care-and-feeding,
in
> this area. %-}
>
> this seems related to the thread issues here, but, my apologies if it's
too
> tangential- just wanted to slip these comments in.
>
> - jim
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Throughout its 18-year history, RSA Conference consistently attracts the
> world's best and brightest in the field, creating opportunities for
Conference
> attendees to learn about information security's most important issues
through
> interactions with peers, luminaries and emerging and established
companies.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsaconf-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Throughout its 18-year history, RSA Conference consistently attracts the
world's best and brightest in the field, creating opportunities for
Conference
attendees to learn about information security's most important issues
through
interactions with peers, luminaries and emerging and established companies.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsaconf-dev2dev
_______________________________________________
Rails-devel mailing list
Rai...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
|
|
From: Freek D. <sf_...@ma...> - 2010-01-20 14:06:11
|
Erik Vos wrote: [about making some changes to the XML format] > Rick, sorry for your documentation work - I'm afraid it will have to > describe this additional level! Out of curiosity: where can I find the documentation? I could not find it in the tarbal or on the website. Perhaps I overlooked it. Regards, Freek |
|
From: Rick W. <wes...@pu...> - 2010-01-20 14:08:38
|
Freek Dijkstra wrote: > Erik Vos wrote: > [about making some changes to the XML format] > >> Rick, sorry for your documentation work - I'm afraid it will have to >> describe this additional level! >> > > Out of curiosity: where can I find the documentation? I could not find > it in the tarbal or on the website. Perhaps I overlooked it. > > Regards, > Freek > > > I'm still working on it. A large part is understanding the program in the first place. And, as with all of us, doing this in my spare time. -- Rick Westerman wes...@pu... |
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From: brett l. <wak...@gm...> - 2010-01-12 02:14:14
|
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote: > > 3. Where do Tiles.xml and the SVG files come from? > Ultimately everything comes from a tile database named TileDesigner.18t > created by Marco Rocci's TileDesigner program (see > http://www.rails18xx.it/software.html). In the mean time I have added a lot > of tiles to Marco's original tile set. From that database I export both the > SVG tiles and an XML descriptive file called TileDesigner.xml. > > The SVG export is somewhat buggy. Originally Brett fixed that by a procedure > that I don't have the details of. I have recently taken over and I'm now > using a procedure described in the comments of a Perl script named > CombineTiles.pl. That script builds the Rails SVG file set by combining > parts from three sets of SVG files: > > Erik > There really aren't many details to give. I used Inkscape to hand-edit the tiles to the dimensions we needed, which was not fun. Having a script do the direct conversion is a much better solution. To be honest, I'm not really sure why I never scripted it out myself. ---Brett. |
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From: Phil D. <de...@gm...> - 2010-01-12 11:01:16
|
I'll second Rick and say thanks for the detailed reply, that really helps to understand how the system fits together :) Phil 2010/1/11 Erik Vos <eri...@xs...>: > > > This may another one of those "I should not go there" type of questions. > If so apologies in advance. Or I may be missing something obvious. At the > moment I am learning the source of Rails via experimentation rather than > intensive reading of the code. > > Feel free to ask any questions; however, I can't guarantee that the answer > is always welcome. > > A tile for a given game is defined in three places: > > The per-game TileSet.xml seems reasonable as it has a list of the tiles > in the given game, quantity of tiles, upgrade path, and which SVG picture to > use. > The per-game Tiles.xml has the same list of tiles but this time with the > colour of the tile (not the actual color on the time but the color phase), > how many cities and towns and their positions; values of the cities/towns > and a list of how the track is laid out (e.g., from side 0 to side 2, from > side 1 to side 5). > The whole-rails SVG files have the graphics for each of the tiles. > Now for a given tile the relationship of the tile's SVG file and the > tile's entry in Tiles.xml is fixed. In other words I can not a take a tile > in the Tiles.xml file and change its track layout from 'side 0 to side 2' to > 'side 0 to side 3' and expect that the tile will show up properly. Instead > it will retain it's SVG representation. Ditto if I try to change the number > of cities or their position. So ... why not have a global Tiles.xml file > with three items in it and reduce the duplication across the games? That > would make the per-game Tiles.xml smaller and more readable (and thus easier > to debug). And/or combine the reduced per-game Tiles.xml file into the > TileSet.xml file thus reducing another source of duplication and error. > > 1. Why do we have separate TileSet.xml and Tiles.xml? > > TileSet.xml contains the game-specific tile properties, and Tiles.xml has > the game-independent tile properties. The latter file is generated by > rails.util.MakeGameTileSets (a stand-alone Java class/program) from > TileSet.xml and the overall Tiles.xml file that has *all* tiles (this file > and several other files that I'm going to mention are in directory > 18xx/tiles of the CVS repository on Sourceforge). This program also checks > TileSet.xml against Map.xml for consistency. > > 2. Why do we have separate XMLand SVG files? That is because we use an SVG > renderer that understands SVG, whereas both I and the Java code I have > written only understand XML. And I doubt if the twain will ever meet. > > 3. Where do Tiles.xml and the SVG files come from? > Ultimately everything comes from a tile database named TileDesigner.18t > created by Marco Rocci's TileDesigner program (see > http://www.rails18xx.it/software.html). In the mean time I have added a lot > of tiles to Marco's original tile set. From that database I export both the > SVG tiles and an XML descriptive file called TileDesigner.xml. > > The SVG export is somewhat buggy. Originally Brett fixed that by a procedure > that I don't have the details of. I have recently taken over and I'm now > using a procedure described in the comments of a Perl script named > CombineTiles.pl. That script builds the Rails SVG file set by combining > parts from three sets of SVG files: > - tiles with ID > 0 (layable tiles, the ID is printed on the tile). > - tiles with ID <=0 (preprinted tiles, no ID on the tile; this is a separate > export from TileDesigner) > - special tiles that I have modified manually with Inkscape (such as the red > off-board tiles -901 throught -903, which TileDesigner cannot create with > "arrows". So for these tiles the XML does *not* exactly correspond with the > SVG!). > > The XML export (TileDesigner.xml) is converted by another Java program/class > named rails.util.ConvertTiles into the overall Tiles.xml that I mentioned > before. I'm doing this conversion because I think that the latter format is > better suitable for use in Rails. > > 4. Why is this procedure so complex? > Well, we're doing the best we can with the limited knowledge and imperfect > tools that we have. > > BTW#1: Is there any routine to display all of the SVG files? > > No. Only TileDesigner has everything. > > BTW#2: The README in the 'tiles' directory says that the XML files in > said directory are not important. IMHO it should also say that the svg > sub-directory is critically important. As you can imagine by my comment it > took me a while to realize the importance of said directory > > It doesn't say that these aren't important, it only says that these are not > [directly] used by Rails. These files in fact do form the basis of the > per-game tile sets, as I hope I have explained well enough above. > > Erik > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community > Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support > A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app distribution fast and easy > Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers > http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > > |
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From: Rick W. <wes...@pu...> - 2010-01-11 23:43:10
|
Ah, I think I just answered my own question on why there has to be a per-game Tiles.xml when the data is being generated from a global Tiles.xml file. It looks like -- for whatever reason -- there does need to be a one-to-one correspondence between the tiles in TileSets.xml and Tiles.xml. Thus since TileSets is limited on a per- game basis then so does Tiles.xml. -- Rick |
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From: brett l. <wak...@gm...> - 2010-01-12 02:45:41
|
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Rick Westerman <wes...@pu...> wrote: > Ah, I think I just answered my own question on why there has to be a > per-game Tiles.xml when the data is being generated from a global > Tiles.xml file. It looks like -- for whatever reason -- there does > need to be a one-to-one correspondence between the tiles in > TileSets.xml and Tiles.xml. Thus since TileSets is limited on a per- > game basis then so does Tiles.xml. > > -- Rick If memory serves, the reason we decided to do it this way is because there are a few tiles out there that use duplicated tile numbers. So, we need to be able to do things like, "Tile #88 in game X is image #1088" while "Tile #88 in game Y is image #2088". ---Brett. |
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From: Rick W. <wes...@pu...> - 2010-01-12 14:11:04
|
brett lentz wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Rick Westerman <wes...@pu...> wrote:
>
>> Ah, I think I just answered my own question on why there has to be a
>> per-game Tiles.xml when the data is being generated from a global
>> Tiles.xml file. It looks like -- for whatever reason -- there does
>> need to be a one-to-one correspondence between the tiles in
>> TileSets.xml and Tiles.xml. Thus since TileSets is limited on a per-
>> game basis then so does Tiles.xml.
>>
>> -- Rick
>>
>
> If memory serves, the reason we decided to do it this way is because
> there are a few tiles out there that use duplicated tile numbers.
>
> So, we need to be able to do things like, "Tile #88 in game X is image
> #1088" while "Tile #88 in game Y is image #2088".
>
>
> ---Brett.
>
Definitely need that ability. And thus the need for a per-game
TileSets which has the 'pic' option (along with others such as quantity
and permissible upgrades.) It is just irritating that there is this
firm one-to-one correspondence between the Tiles.xml file (which gets
generated from a global file) and TileSets.xml. A missing or extra tile
in one or the other other causes the program to complain & crash ... and
not always coherently. On the other hand things are the way they are.
I've certainly written my share of programs that have strange
behaviors. Often because of retroactive modifications and growth.
Since I hate it when people make suggestions on what I could do better
without actually doing the work -- and since I am not offering to make
the program any tighter (at least at this point) -- I'll just shut up on
the topic and work with what exists. I am almost done with 1876-30.
It has been like pulling teeth but maybe I will have a good document at
the end of this process.
--
Rick Westerman wes...@pu...
|
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From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-01-13 18:42:40
|
Yes, that was another reason. Thanks, Brett. Erik. -----Original Message----- From: brett lentz [mailto:wak...@gm...] Sent: Tuesday 12 January 2010 02:37 To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles.xml, TileSet.xml, and svg files On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Rick Westerman <wes...@pu...> wrote: > Ah, I think I just answered my own question on why there has to be a > per-game Tiles.xml when the data is being generated from a global > Tiles.xml file. It looks like -- for whatever reason -- there does > need to be a one-to-one correspondence between the tiles in > TileSets.xml and Tiles.xml. Thus since TileSets is limited on a per- > game basis then so does Tiles.xml. > > -- Rick If memory serves, the reason we decided to do it this way is because there are a few tiles out there that use duplicated tile numbers. So, we need to be able to do things like, "Tile #88 in game X is image #1088" while "Tile #88 in game Y is image #2088". ---Brett. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app distribution fast and easy Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev _______________________________________________ Rails-devel mailing list Rai...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel |
|
From: Rick W. <wes...@pu...> - 2010-01-13 18:51:36
|
Erik Vos wrote:
>
> Thank you for the extensive reply. Knowing that there
> is the MakeGameTileSets program to autogenerate the per-game Tiles.xml
> and to check the Map.xml file is
> a big help. Although I do wonder why you don't simply
> read in the global Tiles files and use that. But, knowing XML,
> perhaps that is too much of a strain on the program.
>
> XML parsing is slow. I don't like wasting CPU time and memory.
Once again I hesitate to make suggestions when I am not going to
implement them and may not know what I am talking about ... however ...
during the compile into a jar could the global Tiles file be converted
into a Java-friendly format that is quick to read and parse? That way
when the program actually runs it just picks up the pre-formatted data
and does not need to do XML parsing.
>
> Anyway can you give this poor ol' non-Java programmer a short
> hint on how to run MakeGameTileSets? I am getting a
> 'NoClassDefError' on org/apache/log4j/logger when I try to run the
> class directly. I am probably doing something painfully obviously
> wrong.
>
Your suggestion works. Thanks. One of these days I'll have to sit
down to actually learn Java and all about class paths. Maybe 'rails'
will be first, ah, victim. :-)
--
Rick Westerman wes...@pu...
|
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From: John A. T. <ja...@ja...> - 2010-01-13 20:09:23
|
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Rick Westerman <wes...@pu...>wrote: > Once again I hesitate to make suggestions when I am not going to > implement them and may not know what I am talking about ... however ... > during the compile into a jar could the global Tiles file be converted > into a Java-friendly format that is quick to read and parse? That way > when the program actually runs it just picks up the pre-formatted data > and does not need to do XML parsing. The fastest to load would be serialized Java objects, and you can load the entire object graph at once. -- John A. Tamplin |
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