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From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-01-18 21:30:21
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I have added "Trains" and "Phases" to the "Info" menu. For each train and phase a selection of its properties is displayed. Before going into the details, I should note that properties will only listed in relation to where these are currently defined, i.e. under either the "TrainManager" or the "PhaseManager" entries in Game.xml. I'm not going to mix or move the train and phase properties in any way. For each train type the following properties will be listed: - the Phase that is started, - any rusted train types, - any train types to be released (i.e. made available for buying, such as the D-trains with the first 6-train in 1830). For each phase will be listed: - the tile colours that can be laid, - the number of ORs in that phase, - the off-board step (number). Phases have many more properties, but most of these only apply to a subset of games. If display of any such properties is wanted, I would prefer to display these only in games where the relevant values can change between phases. To make this happen requires rewriting the way the parameters per phase are stored, so I will skip this idea until it's clear what more properties should be displayed. An example might be 1835, where trains may only be traded between companies from Phase 3 on. In other games implemented so far, train trading is always allowed, so there is no reason to display that parameter value. What more properties would be useful to display, if any? BTW While doing this, I found and fixed a bug in 18EU that *might* have prevented grey tiles to be laid. Has anyone experienced that? Erik. |
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From: Chris S. <chr...@gm...> - 2010-01-18 21:48:34
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Another useful piece of information would be "coal token removed on phase change" in 18AL or "privates close on phase 5 begin" in many games or notes about changes to the way companies float in 1856. -- Chris Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 1:30 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote: > I have added "Trains" and "Phases" to the "Info" menu. > For each train and phase a selection of its properties is displayed. > > Before going into the details, I should note that properties will > only listed in relation to where these are currently defined, > i.e. under either the "TrainManager" or the "PhaseManager" entries > in Game.xml. I'm not going to mix or move the train and phase > properties in any way. > > For each train type the following properties will be listed: > - the Phase that is started, > - any rusted train types, > - any train types to be released (i.e. made available for > buying, such as the D-trains with the first 6-train in 1830). > > For each phase will be listed: > - the tile colours that can be laid, > - the number of ORs in that phase, > - the off-board step (number). > > Phases have many more properties, but most of these only > apply to a subset of games. If display of any such > properties is wanted, I would prefer to display these only > in games where the relevant values can change between phases. > To make this happen requires rewriting the way the parameters > per phase are stored, so I will skip this idea until it's clear > what more properties should be displayed. > > An example might be 1835, where trains may only be traded > between companies from Phase 3 on. In other games implemented > so far, train trading is always allowed, so there is no > reason to display that parameter value. > > What more properties would be useful to display, if any? > > > BTW While doing this, I found and fixed a bug in 18EU that > *might* have prevented grey tiles to be laid. > Has anyone experienced that? > > Erik. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Throughout its 18-year history, RSA Conference consistently attracts the > world's best and brightest in the field, creating opportunities for > Conference > attendees to learn about information security's most important issues > through > interactions with peers, luminaries and emerging and established companies. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsaconf-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > |
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From: John D. G. <jd...@di...> - 2010-01-19 00:53:41
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Erik Vos wrote: > An example might be 1835, where trains may only be traded > between companies from Phase 3 on. In other games implemented > so far, train trading is always allowed, so there is no > reason to display that parameter value. In most games, including 1830 and 1856, buying trains from another company is only allowed after a 3 train is purchased. It is unrestricted in 18AL, 18GA, and one or two others, but that is unusual. If Rails is allowing the practice in games of 1830/56/70, it needs to stop. > What more properties would be useful to display, if any? I'd like to see the earlier trains drop off the beginning of the list in the Game Status window once they have all been purchased (except maybe if used trains of that type are available). > BTW While doing this, I found and fixed a bug in 18EU that > *might* have prevented grey tiles to be laid. > Has anyone experienced that? Yes, I was unable to place them in phase 6 (or maybe it's my error - I thought that Berlin/Vienna had a gray upgrade, but I wasn't allowed to do it). |
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From: Mark S. <mar...@gm...> - 2010-01-19 01:13:11
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John, Maybe this was changed in 1830 Rule Set, but my copy (dated 2/86 on the back) states in Section 21.0, Paragraph 3: *Trains may be either purchased from the Bank at face value or from another corporation at any mutually agreed price. Whenever a train is purchased from one Corporation by another the transfer takes place in the purchaser's turn. Corporations which have the same president may sell trains to each other for at least $1. * No where in this does it state about this only being allowed after 3 Trains are bought. In Section 22.0 Stages of the Game, just after this, it does not mention anything about train purchases allowed (or not allowed) in any stage/phase. Mark On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 7:24 PM, John David Galt < jd...@di...> wrote: > Erik Vos wrote: > > An example might be 1835, where trains may only be traded > > between companies from Phase 3 on. In other games implemented > > so far, train trading is always allowed, so there is no > > reason to display that parameter value. > > In most games, including 1830 and 1856, buying trains from another company > is only allowed after a 3 train is purchased. It is unrestricted in 18AL, > 18GA, and one or two others, but that is unusual. If Rails is allowing the > practice in games of 1830/56/70, it needs to stop. > > |
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From: Rick W. <wes...@pu...> - 2010-01-19 01:27:49
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On Jan 18, 2010, at 8:13 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > John, > > Maybe this was changed in 1830 Rule Set, but my copy (dated 2/86 on > the back) states in Section 21.0, Paragraph 3: > > Trains may be either purchased from the Bank at face value or from > another corporation at any mutually agreed price. Whenever a train > is purchased from one Corporation by another the transfer takes > place in the purchaser's turn. Corporations which have the same > president may sell trains to each other for at least $1. > > No where in this does it state about this only being allowed after > 3 Trains are bought. In Section 22.0 Stages of the Game, just after > this, it does not mention anything about train purchases allowed > (or not allowed) in any stage/phase. > > Mark After looking at my copy of 1830 I agree with Mark. Of course the 1830 rules are not known for their clarity. However the "18xx rules difference list" (maintained by Keith T.) also does not support John's contention that trains can be purchased from other companies only after the first 3 train has been purchased. I do not have my copies of '56 and '70 handy to check them. In any case 'rails' is only a playing aid. Certainly the players themselves can restrict such purchases if they believe that rules forbid them. -- Rick |
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From: Phil D. <de...@gm...> - 2010-01-19 07:01:36
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Just checked my rules for 1870 and it makes no restriction on buying and selling trains between corps, same for 18EU. RE:placing Grey tiles in 18EU. There are only grey tiles to upgrade the 'non-Y' cities, Paris, Berlin, Vienna and all the 'Y' cities do not go above brown/russet. I'll let you know whether we experience an issue laying greys once my current game reaches that stage although I've not faced it before Phil 2010/1/19 Rick Westerman <wes...@pu...>: > > On Jan 18, 2010, at 8:13 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > > John, > > Maybe this was changed in 1830 Rule Set, but my copy (dated 2/86 on the > back) states in Section 21.0, Paragraph 3: > > Trains may be either purchased from the Bank at face value or from another > corporation at any mutually agreed price. Whenever a train is purchased from > one Corporation by another the transfer takes place in the purchaser's turn. > Corporations which have the same president may sell trains to each other for > at least $1. > > No where in this does it state about this only being allowed after 3 Trains > are bought. In Section 22.0 Stages of the Game, just after this, it does not > mention anything about train purchases allowed (or not allowed) in any > stage/phase. > > Mark > > After looking at my copy of 1830 I agree with Mark. Of course the 1830 > rules are not known for their clarity. However the "18xx rules difference > list" (maintained by Keith T.) also does not support John's contention that > trains can be purchased from other companies only after the first 3 train > has been purchased. I do not have my copies of '56 and '70 handy to > check them. In any case 'rails' is only a playing aid. Certainly the > players themselves can restrict such purchases if they believe that rules > forbid them. > -- Rick > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Throughout its 18-year history, RSA Conference consistently attracts the > world's best and brightest in the field, creating opportunities for > Conference > attendees to learn about information security's most important issues > through > interactions with peers, luminaries and emerging and established companies. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsaconf-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > > |
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From: Freek D. <sf_...@ma...> - 2010-01-20 17:19:38
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Erik Vos wrote: > I have added "Trains" and "Phases" to the "Info" menu. > For each train and phase a selection of its properties is displayed. Great addition, thanks! The user interface could be improved though: I would prefer to see it in a separate window with tabs per topic instead of burried in submenus. You asked what was missing. Rick mentioned the "18xx rules difference list" (thanks!) and I would say: more or less all the information in there. Particular things I tend to forget: All kinds of bank rules (as they vary per game, and I tend to forget): - when does a public company float (# of shares sold) - share restrictions for each phase - is there an escrow for sold shares, when does it apply? (in 1856, yes for shares depending on the phases, and released if destination is reached; in 1835 for shares sold; in 1830 all money) - where does operating money end up for unsold shares or shares in the pool? (in 1856 dividend for shares in the bank pool; in 1870 for unissued shares) For public companies: - destination location Regards, Freek Dijkstra |
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From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-01-22 22:03:37
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The user interface could be improved though: I would prefer to see it in a separate window with tabs per topic instead of burried in submenus. Nice idea, but I'm not going to do that. I'm not working towards the best possible GUI (I'm not qualified to design and build that to start with) but towards a working one. You asked what was missing. Rick mentioned the "18xx rules difference list" (thanks!) and I would say: more or less all the information in there. That is a bit much, and we have explained before that we're not going to spell out all game-specific rules in Rails. Particular things I tend to forget: All kinds of bank rules (as they vary per game, and I tend to forget): - when does a public company float (# of shares sold) - share restrictions for each phase - is there an escrow for sold shares, when does it apply? (in 1856, yes for shares depending on the phases, and released if destination is reached; in 1835 for shares sold; in 1830 all money) - where does operating money end up for unsold shares or shares in the pool? (in 1856 dividend for shares in the bank pool; in 1870 for unissued shares) Some of this might end up in Info, in particular the complex 1856 capitalization rules. For public companies: - destination location Yes, that's useful. Erik. |
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From: Aliza P. <ali...@gm...> - 2010-01-27 20:10:13
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On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote: > > For public companies: > - destination location > > Yes, that's useful. > Rails doesn't enforce any track constraints, so it doesn't actually know when a company has reached its destination, but it's worth knowing that in 1856, there are a set of alternate destinations listed in the rules. I'm not sure what the best way to cover this might be -- perhaps a free-text field for "house rules" that cover any constraints a group of players might have agreed to, for handy reference. (Anything that Rails cannot be expected to enforce, but that players might want to have available for reference, like "you must be able to run on the new portion of track laid", "no sales of unoperated companies", etc., or even something as seemingly minor as "no out-of-band game discussions".) |
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From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-01-27 20:34:27
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Rails doesn't enforce any track constraints, so it doesn't actually know when a company has reached its destination, but it's worth knowing that in 1856, there are a set of alternate destinations listed in the rules. I'm not sure what the best way to cover this might be -- perhaps a free-text field for "house rules" that cover any constraints a group of players might have agreed to, for handy reference. EV: Once it becomes relevant, this could be configured in XML with a game option. (Anything that Rails cannot be expected to enforce, but that players might want to have available for reference, like "you must be able to run on the new portion of track laid", "no sales of unoperated companies", etc., or even something as seemingly minor as "no out-of-band game discussions".) EV: except the last one, these items might be added to the Info menu one day. The "no sales of unoperated companies" and similar parameters are already known, so that wouldn't be a big deal. Erik. |
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From: Freek D. <fr...@ma...> - 2010-01-20 17:19:23
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Erik Vos wrote: > I have added "Trains" and "Phases" to the "Info" menu. > For each train and phase a selection of its properties is displayed. Great addition, thanks! The user interface could be improved though: I would prefer to see it in a separate window with tabs per topic instead of burried in submenus. You asked what was missing. Rick mentioned the "18xx rules difference list" (thanks!) and I would say: more or less all the information in there. Particular things I tend to forget: All kinds of bank rules (as they vary per game, and I tend to forget): - when does a public company float (# of shares sold) - share restrictions for each phase - is there an escrow for sold shares, when does it apply? (in 1856, yes for shares depending on the phases, and released if destination is reached; in 1835 for shares sold; in 1830 all money) - where does operating money end up for unsold shares or shares in the pool? (in 1856 dividend for shares in the bank pool; in 1870 for unissued shares) For public companies: - destination location Regards, Freek Dijkstra |
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From: Aliza P. <ali...@gm...> - 2010-01-20 22:55:13
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On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 1:30 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote: > I have added "Trains" and "Phases" to the "Info" menu. > [...] > > For each train type the following properties will be listed: > - the Phase that is started, > - any rusted train types, > - any train types to be released (i.e. made available for > buying, such as the D-trains with the first 6-train in 1830). A very few games (18MEX, 18AL (or the sibling game with the civil war) come to mind, I know there's at least one other) have half-phases -- the last or second-to-last train of one of the types triggers something. For example, phase 3-and-a-half in 18MEX lets NdM shares be sold in the SR, and kills the minors. I'm not sure how to indicate or code for that. - Aliza |
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From: John A. T. <ja...@ja...> - 2010-01-20 22:57:28
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On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Aliza Panitz <ali...@gm...>wrote: > A very few games (18MEX, 18AL (or the sibling game with the civil war) > come to mind, I know there's at least one other) have half-phases -- > the last or second-to-last train of one of the types triggers > something. > > For example, phase 3-and-a-half in 18MEX lets NdM shares be sold in > the SR, and kills the minors. > > I'm not sure how to indicate or code for that. Similarly, many games have rules like 1830 where the purchase of the first of one train opens up availability of some other train. -- John A. Tamplin |
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From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2010-01-20 23:16:15
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_____ From: John A. Tamplin [mailto:ja...@ja...] Sent: Wednesday 20 January 2010 23:57 To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Info: trains and phases On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Aliza Panitz <ali...@gm...> wrote: A very few games (18MEX, 18AL (or the sibling game with the civil war) come to mind, I know there's at least one other) have half-phases -- the last or second-to-last train of one of the types triggers something. For example, phase 3-and-a-half in 18MEX lets NdM shares be sold in the SR, and kills the minors. I'm not sure how to indicate or code for that. That's not possible yet. Sometime someone will have to invent some trick for that... Similarly, many games have rules like 1830 where the purchase of the first of one train opens up availability of some other train. That's already catered for (via an extra "release" attribute: the first 6-train releases the D-trains). It's already included in the Info. Erik. |
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From: brett l. <wak...@gm...> - 2010-01-20 23:26:34
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On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:16 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote: > ________________________________ > From: John A. Tamplin [mailto:ja...@ja...] > Sent: Wednesday 20 January 2010 23:57 > To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game > Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Info: trains and phases > > On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Aliza Panitz <ali...@gm...> > wrote: >> >> A very few games (18MEX, 18AL (or the sibling game with the civil war) >> come to mind, I know there's at least one other) have half-phases -- >> the last or second-to-last train of one of the types triggers >> something. >> >> For example, phase 3-and-a-half in 18MEX lets NdM shares be sold in >> the SR, and kills the minors. >> >> I'm not sure how to indicate or code for that. > > > > That's not possible yet. Sometime someone will have to invent some trick for > that... > I don't think this should be too difficult to handle. We can add an attribute to the Phase class denoting whether the current phase is a "full" phase, or a partial phase, and then add conditional logic that runs the various parts of the turn based on the XML's definition of what parts of a turn happen (or don't) during the partial phases. ---Brett. |
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From: Aliza P. <ali...@gm...> - 2010-01-21 01:01:45
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On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:16 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote: > >> For example, phase 3-and-a-half in 18MEX lets NdM shares be >> sold in the SR, and kills the minors. >> > > That's not possible yet. Sometime someone will have to invent > some trick for that... One ugly possibility: Have a stack of 3-trains, and then a stack of 3.1 trains which are identical except for triggering a new phase. Speaking of ugly possibilities, some games have flexible trains -- there's a base price, and a slightly higher price that lets you use the back of the train card, with some extra power (dits, cities-vs-hexes, etc.) Worse yet are phase changes that downgrade previously purchased trains. - Aliza |
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