rails-devel

[Rails-devel] please allow simple player text-messages/annotations, within main save-file & report window

[Jim B. <ji...@ko...>]

If you're doing some work in the report window, I'd like to request/revisit the notion of a feature for a player annotation/message, along with each move.

This came up earlier, and Erik implemented a feature that allows edit/save of the report-window/file- but that's not the feature pbem users want.  

Instead, we want to be able to simply associate a message-text with each move, and have that message-text saved in the GAME FILE (.rails), and, logged in the report window.

So the report window might read like this :

<snip>
Jim buys a 10% share of PRR from Pool for $90.
JIM:  Now, I wish I'd floated PRR earlier.  :-(
Fred buys a 10% share of NYNH from IPO for $67.
FRED:  If PRR came out earlier, I wouldn't have bought the #4 train- either way, NYC will get that #5.
Aliza buys a 10% share of PRR from Pool for $90.
ALIZA:  Would you guys keep the noise down?
Jason buys a 10% share of PRR from Pool for $90.
Jim passes.
Fred passes.
etc...
<snip>

To summarize, I think this feature has these aspects:

a) a new text-control in the main user-interface (maybe in the report-window toolbar, maybe somewhere else)- the current player can type text into the control, and it will be saved as a comment in the game-record (at this point in the game).
b) these player annotations are saved in the regular .rails file, along with the traditional player moves
c) the report-window reports these player texts/messages, simply interleaved in it main game log.  (as in my example, above.   alternatively, a different window might just list player's messages- but, personally, I'd prefer a single log, w/ everything reported there.)
d) there is no additional save/edit action required (or desired), to save the text-message- it's /automatically/ appended to the main game record, during a normal Save...
e) undo/etc should also undo the message- the messages are attached to moves (from a user-interface pov, the "current player" is speaking).

I'm trying to be precise, to be helpful- but, I don't think it's very difficult, as described here?

This would provide a /huge/ social benefit in pbem games.  

(The Rails record is too dry- no player interaction, eg compared with VASSAL pbem games.  Rails does everything else, though- so, pbem players don't use email for much game chat, either- and, even if they did, it wouldn't be saved along with the game.)

thanks for the consideration,
 - jim
  

Re: [Rails-devel] please allow simple player text-messages/annotations, within main save-file & report window

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

OK, but please note, that if we allow players to add messages out of turn,
the acting player name must be added to that action. Without that, the game
engine cannot know that it's not the current player who entered that
message. So we would have to add a player name selection choice list to the
message entry control, unless (in a PBEM game) the local.player.name
property is used.

Erik.

-----Original Message-----
From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...] 
Sent: Saturday 14 August 2010 21:13
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] please allow simple player
text-messages/annotations, within main save-file & report window

Erik Vos wrote:
> This is a very interesting idea, and I understand that such a feature
would
> be much more useful that the existing editing option.
> 
> The main issue is about the sequence of actions. You say: "Instead, we
want
> to be able to simply associate a message-text with each move" and "from a
> user-interface pov, the 'current player' is speaking". If taken literally,
> this would mean, that the message should become part of the move*, and
that
> the message must be entered _before_ the move is completed and executed
(by
> pressing "Pass", "Buy", "Done", "Lay Tile", etc.). This way, we can easily
> ensure that a message becomes part of the move and is logged, saved and
> undone with it. (The messages would always be displayed either before or
> after the existing move text.)

I like this idea but would make the message a separate "action".  (This
might
mean you're allowed to send messages out of turn, or only that each turn in
PBEM games has to end with the "Done" button so that you have a chance to
enter messages before ending your turn.)

If messages are allowed out-of-turn, then a player who uses "Undo" within
his
turn may have to undo somebody else's message to reach his own action.

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Re: [Rails-devel] please allow simple player text-messages/annotations , within main save-file & report window

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

Sorry for not being involved in the discussion before, but I implemented a 
simple solution offline yesterday. 

* How it works:

I mainly followed Jim's suggestion:

The dynamic report window has a comment button, which allows to add a comment 
to the current action, which is then displayed (in a smaller green font 
currently) beside the action in the report window. 
It is stored in Rails game file, thus is still visible after reload. 

It alllows easy commenting of past events: Simply press the link of the action 
to be commented, Rails goes back to that situation, add the comment and then 
go back to the current event.

* Implementation:

I had the same problem to solve already for the new dynamic report window: 
Messages are not directly linked to actions, thus there was the need to built 
that connection. For this I decided not to change anything in the core part 
of Rails (the action and move mechanisms), but simply use the current 
movestack index as an identifier for the messages.

The same idea works for user comments: A simple Map <Integer, String> links 
actions and user comments. All user comments are then stored at the end of 
Rails game file by serializing the map.

* Comparison to actions

The mechanism currently bypasses the action mechanism of Rails. However it is 
easy to change it to use a kind of GameAction (similar to Save, Undo etc.), 
which are not fully qualified actions, as they are not stored in the action 
stack and thus are not saved and are not undoable.

On the one hand I like the idea using fully qualified actions for comments and 
thus leverage on existing mechanisms for save and undo.  On the other 
comments are not real actions and I fear that if one starts to look into the 
details they might require different treatment: For example currently going 
back to a past game action adding a comment action at this point would not 
allow to go back to the end of action stack without modifying the undo/redo 
mechanism. This might be not that bad as it sounds, because adding past 
actions and still be able to redo the action stack is on my wishlist anyhow. 
But implementing this correctly is not easy due to the requried failure 
handling in the general case.

Stefan


On Sunday 15 August 2010 13:21:08 Erik Vos wrote:
> OK, but please note, that if we allow players to add messages out of turn,
> the acting player name must be added to that action. Without that, the game
> engine cannot know that it's not the current player who entered that
> message. So we would have to add a player name selection choice list to the
> message entry control, unless (in a PBEM game) the local.player.name
> property is used.
>
> Erik.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...]
> Sent: Saturday 14 August 2010 21:13
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] please allow simple player
> text-messages/annotations, within main save-file & report window
>
> Erik Vos wrote:
> > This is a very interesting idea, and I understand that such a feature
>
> would
>
> > be much more useful that the existing editing option.
> >
> > The main issue is about the sequence of actions. You say: "Instead, we
>
> want
>
> > to be able to simply associate a message-text with each move" and "from a
> > user-interface pov, the 'current player' is speaking". If taken
> > literally, this would mean, that the message should become part of the
> > move*, and
>
> that
>
> > the message must be entered _before_ the move is completed and executed
>
> (by
>
> > pressing "Pass", "Buy", "Done", "Lay Tile", etc.). This way, we can
> > easily ensure that a message becomes part of the move and is logged,
> > saved and undone with it. (The messages would always be displayed either
> > before or after the existing move text.)
>
> I like this idea but would make the message a separate "action".  (This
> might
> mean you're allowed to send messages out of turn, or only that each turn in
> PBEM games has to end with the "Done" button so that you have a chance to
> enter messages before ending your turn.)
>
> If messages are allowed out-of-turn, then a player who uses "Undo" within
> his
> turn may have to undo somebody else's message to reach his own action.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: [Rails-devel] please allow simple player text-messages/annotations, within main save-file & report window

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

I concur with this request 100%.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Jim Black <ji...@ko...> wrote:

>
> If you're doing some work in the report window, I'd like to request/revisit
> the notion of a feature for a player annotation/message, along with each
> move.
>
> This came up earlier, and Erik implemented a feature that allows edit/save
> of the report-window/file- but that's not the feature pbem users want.
>
> Instead, we want to be able to simply associate a message-text with each
> move, and have that message-text saved in the GAME FILE (.rails), and,
> logged in the report window.
>
> So the report window might read like this :
>
> <snip>
> Jim buys a 10% share of PRR from Pool for $90.
> JIM:  Now, I wish I'd floated PRR earlier.  :-(
> Fred buys a 10% share of NYNH from IPO for $67.
> FRED:  If PRR came out earlier, I wouldn't have bought the #4 train- either
> way, NYC will get that #5.
> Aliza buys a 10% share of PRR from Pool for $90.
> ALIZA:  Would you guys keep the noise down?
> Jason buys a 10% share of PRR from Pool for $90.
> Jim passes.
> Fred passes.
> etc...
> <snip>
>
> To summarize, I think this feature has these aspects:
>
> a) a new text-control in the main user-interface (maybe in the
> report-window toolbar, maybe somewhere else)- the current player can type
> text into the control, and it will be saved as a comment in the game-record
> (at this point in the game).
> b) these player annotations are saved in the regular .rails file, along
> with the traditional player moves
> c) the report-window reports these player texts/messages, simply
> interleaved in it main game log.  (as in my example, above.   alternatively,
> a different window might just list player's messages- but, personally, I'd
> prefer a single log, w/ everything reported there.)
> d) there is no additional save/edit action required (or desired), to save
> the text-message- it's /automatically/ appended to the main game record,
> during a normal Save...
> e) undo/etc should also undo the message- the messages are attached to
> moves (from a user-interface pov, the "current player" is speaking).
>
> I'm trying to be precise, to be helpful- but, I don't think it's very
> difficult, as described here?
>
> This would provide a /huge/ social benefit in pbem games.
>
> (The Rails record is too dry- no player interaction, eg compared with
> VASSAL pbem games.  Rails does everything else, though- so, pbem players
> don't use email for much game chat, either- and, even if they did, it
> wouldn't be saved along with the game.)
>
> thanks for the consideration,
>  - jim
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by
>
> Make an app they can't live without
> Enter the BlackBerry Developer Challenge
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/RIM-dev2dev
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>

Re: [Rails-devel] please allow simple player text-messages/annotations, within main save-file & report window

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

This is a very interesting idea, and I understand that such a feature would
be much more useful that the existing editing option.

The main issue is about the sequence of actions. You say: "Instead, we want
to be able to simply associate a message-text with each move" and "from a
user-interface pov, the 'current player' is speaking". If taken literally,
this would mean, that the message should become part of the move*, and that
the message must be entered _before_ the move is completed and executed (by
pressing "Pass", "Buy", "Done", "Lay Tile", etc.). This way, we can easily
ensure that a message becomes part of the move and is logged, saved and
undone with it. (The messages would always be displayed either before or
after the existing move text.)

There may be one catch: players must remember which actions relinquish a
turn and make sure that any messages are entered before completing such
actions. Keep in mind that in several cases players have only one action per
turn, such as in private company auctions and during state company
formations.

>From a usability POV, a case could me made for allowing to enter a message
_after_ a move has completed (by the player having the turn at that move).
This would amount to making message entry a separate move*, which is quite
possible. However, we would then run into difficulties in defining to which
player (current or previous) the message should be ascribed, and to which
action move (the previous or the next) it should be linked for undoability
purposes. Perhaps we can define solutions for these problems, but is there a
need?

Erik.

*Technically: PossibleAction and MoveSet.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Black [mailto:ji...@ko...] 
Sent: Thursday 12 August 2010 19:28
To: rai...@li...
Subject: [Rails-devel] please allow simple player
text-messages/annotations,within main save-file & report window


If you're doing some work in the report window, I'd like to request/revisit
the notion of a feature for a player annotation/message, along with each
move.

This came up earlier, and Erik implemented a feature that allows edit/save
of the report-window/file- but that's not the feature pbem users want.  

Instead, we want to be able to simply associate a message-text with each
move, and have that message-text saved in the GAME FILE (.rails), and,
logged in the report window.

So the report window might read like this :

<snip>
Jim buys a 10% share of PRR from Pool for $90.
JIM:  Now, I wish I'd floated PRR earlier.  :-(
Fred buys a 10% share of NYNH from IPO for $67.
FRED:  If PRR came out earlier, I wouldn't have bought the #4 train- either
way, NYC will get that #5.
Aliza buys a 10% share of PRR from Pool for $90.
ALIZA:  Would you guys keep the noise down?
Jason buys a 10% share of PRR from Pool for $90.
Jim passes.
Fred passes.
etc...
<snip>

To summarize, I think this feature has these aspects:

a) a new text-control in the main user-interface (maybe in the report-window
toolbar, maybe somewhere else)- the current player can type text into the
control, and it will be saved as a comment in the game-record (at this point
in the game).
b) these player annotations are saved in the regular .rails file, along with
the traditional player moves
c) the report-window reports these player texts/messages, simply interleaved
in it main game log.  (as in my example, above.   alternatively, a different
window might just list player's messages- but, personally, I'd prefer a
single log, w/ everything reported there.)
d) there is no additional save/edit action required (or desired), to save
the text-message- it's /automatically/ appended to the main game record,
during a normal Save...
e) undo/etc should also undo the message- the messages are attached to moves
(from a user-interface pov, the "current player" is speaking).

I'm trying to be precise, to be helpful- but, I don't think it's very
difficult, as described here?

This would provide a /huge/ social benefit in pbem games.  

(The Rails record is too dry- no player interaction, eg compared with VASSAL
pbem games.  Rails does everything else, though- so, pbem players don't use
email for much game chat, either- and, even if they did, it wouldn't be
saved along with the game.)

thanks for the consideration,
 - jim
  


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Re: [Rails-devel] please allow simple player text-messages/annotations, within main save-file & report window

[John D. G. <jd...@di...>]

Erik Vos wrote:
> This is a very interesting idea, and I understand that such a feature would
> be much more useful that the existing editing option.
> 
> The main issue is about the sequence of actions. You say: "Instead, we want
> to be able to simply associate a message-text with each move" and "from a
> user-interface pov, the 'current player' is speaking". If taken literally,
> this would mean, that the message should become part of the move*, and that
> the message must be entered _before_ the move is completed and executed (by
> pressing "Pass", "Buy", "Done", "Lay Tile", etc.). This way, we can easily
> ensure that a message becomes part of the move and is logged, saved and
> undone with it. (The messages would always be displayed either before or
> after the existing move text.)

I like this idea but would make the message a separate "action".  (This might
mean you're allowed to send messages out of turn, or only that each turn in
PBEM games has to end with the "Done" button so that you have a chance to
enter messages before ending your turn.)

If messages are allowed out-of-turn, then a player who uses "Undo" within his
turn may have to undo somebody else's message to reach his own action.