rails-devel — List for discussion of Rails development

[Rails-devel] Emergency trains

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

I have uploaded the code and configuration changes for all games currently
in Rails.

Three configuration options have been added in a new <EmergencyTrainBuying>
tag under <OperatingRound>, all having valid values "yes" and "no", one of
these being the default value.
All cases listed below apply to train purchases needing additional president
cash only.  (Purchases with only company cash are always allowed according
to the standard train buying rules.)

1. mustBuyCheapestTrain [from the Bank, with president cash]:
Yes (default): 1830/Kaas, 1856/70, 18AL/GA/TN, 1826, 1851, 1889
No: 1835, 18EU/VA/Scan
[N/A: 1825, 1880]

2. mayAlwaysBuyNewTrain [if not enough cash for a new train but enough for a
used train]:
Yes: 1835 [Disputed; disapproving players are advised to ignore the new
train offer]
No [or N/A] (default): all other games

3. mayBuyFromCompany [up to list price]:
Yes (default): 1830/Kaas, 1835, 18EU/VA/Scan, 1826, 1851
No: 1856/70, 18AL/GA/TN, 1880, 1889
[N/A: 1825]

I will also add this info to the Wiki.

Erik.

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

I already have implemented the way John wants it.  This version also serves
Martin, as he only has to ignore the option that he doesn't want (and it's
not at the top of the list).

If really hard-pressed, I could be convinced to add a game option to disable
it, but that would sound a bit of overkill to me.

Erik.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 3:25 AM
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835
> 
> On 2011-07-27 09:55, Chris Shaffer wrote:
> > I think this is a reasonable interpretation - but it's just that, an
> > interpretation.  I think the other possibilities are also reasonable
> > interpretations.  Like Erik (and also the people in the 2005
> > discussion), I think this issue is unresolved because of a lack of
> > definition of terminology.
> 
> I'm not surprised.  Let's support both versions, then.
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Got Input?   Slashdot Needs You.
> Take our quick survey online.  Come on, we don't ask for help often.
> Plus, you'll get a chance to win $100 to spend on ThinkGeek.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/slashdot-survey
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

[John D. G. <jd...@di...>]

On 2011-07-27 09:55, Chris Shaffer wrote:
> I think this is a reasonable interpretation - but it's just that, an
> interpretation.  I think the other possibilities are also reasonable
> interpretations.  Like Erik (and also the people in the 2005
> discussion), I think this issue is unresolved because of a lack of
> definition of terminology.

I'm not surprised.  Let's support both versions, then.

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Stefan,

Well, I am not against restructuring per se, but I wouldn't know how to do
that, and I certainly don't consider it a high priority.

What kind of new classes would we need then?  These would need access to
many of the internals of Round and its subclasses, but I think these can't
themselves be (Operating)Round subclasses.
A new hierarchy starting with an abstract top class named Step? 

In any case, it'll be a lot of work, and I would be concerned about all
currently unforeseeable side effects that breaking up OperatingRound might
have.  

Didn't you have some plan to accomplish this?

Anyway, by now I have so many other items on my to-do list that I'm not
really eager to pick up this one.

Erik.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefan Frey [mailto:ste...@we...]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 7:13 AM
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
> 
> Erik,
> I understand that in your definition of the scope of the Operating Round
> class, emergency train buying belongs there. Thus I should better ask for
a
> narrower scope of this class. Including everything what is required for
> processing actions from companies operating is in my opinion too broad.
But I
> know your different opinion. However this scares other purple from
> changing anything there. I would only dare to change the class after
serious
> refactoring. I hope you do not mind my different view.
> Stefan
> 
> 
> Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> schrieb:
> 
> >Stefan,
> >
> >All I'm doing now is updating the existing OperatingRound
> >setBuyableTrains() method, using a few generic configuration settings,
> >to implement the possible answers to a single main question that arises
> >if a company has no
> >trains:
> >
> >	Which trains are allowed to be bought at which (maximum) price,
> given
> >the amount of cash *currently* owned by the company and its president?
> >
> >So far the following decision factors that affect the answer to this
> >main question have been identified:
> >1. If a train from the Bank is bought, must the company buy the
> >cheapest
> >(used) train, even if he has sufficient cash to buy a more expensive
> >(new) train?
> >2. If not, may the president add cash to buy a new train if the company
> >only has sufficient cash to buy a cheaper used train?
> >3. May presidents add cash to buy a train from a company?
> >4. If so, to what maximum price? (Usually list price is the upper
> >limit, but the allowed max. price can be lower if the president is not
> >allowed to sell shares in this case, which always seems to be so. In that
case
> the max.
> >price is the lowest of the list price and the total cash owned by the
> >company and its president.  So I think this question is practically
> >equivalent to: May a president raise cash, e.g. by selling shares, to
> >help buying a train from a company?  So far the answer to that last
> >question always seems to be "no", which would make this question
> redundant).
> >
> >I appreciate all efforts to explain to me how companies and presidents
> >can raise cash by other means, such as selling shares, taking loans,
> >issuing bonds etc., but that is *not* what I'm currently asking for.
> >As it turns out, getting the answers to the above questions is
> >difficult enough, and that is all I need in this stage.
> >
> >What I might do for you is to abstract away these decisions in Boolean
> >methods (still in OperatingRound) that can be overridden. But I'm not
> >sure to what extent that would be helpful. I don't expect many
> >game-specific variations on the number of these basic decisions
> >(affecting that single main question) and their possible answers.
> >
> >Please note, that I intend to put the new configuration settings under
> ><GameParameters> in Game.xml.  For instance, for 1856 I now have
> >	<OperatingRound
> >class="rails.game.specific._1856.OperatingRound_1856">
> >	                <EmergencyTrainBuying mustBuyCheapestTrain="yes"
> >mayBuyFromCompany="no"/>
> >	</OperatingRound>
> >These new game parameters will be stored in the common
> gameParameters
> >collection in GameManager; the grouping under <OperatingRound> is only
> >logical, not physical.
> >
> >Erik.
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Stefan Frey [mailto:ste...@we...]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 12:12 PM
> >> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> >> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
> >>
> >> Erik:
> >> I cannot add now to any of the rules question as I am currently
> >> traveling,
> >but
> >> it seems that you are considering already a broad variety of rules.
> >>
> >> I only ask for a favor with respect to the implementation:
> >> Could you please put (nearly) all code related to the emergency train
> >> purchases into one (new) class: Most likely a sub-component of
> >> TrainManager.
> >> This would also allow it to be easily be replaced by games which have
> >not-yet
> >> considered rules.
> >> Please avoid adding it to the OperatingRound class as I intend it to
> >refactor it
> >> anyhow into smaller pieces.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Stefan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >-----
> >--
> >> Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention Research study
> >> explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth analysis
> >> on
> >the
> >> changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to evaluate the
> >> strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions.
> >> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Rails-devel mailing list
> >> Rai...@li...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >------- Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention Research
> >study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth
> >analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to
> >evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions.
> >http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/
> >_______________________________________________
> >Rails-devel mailing list
> >Rai...@li...
> >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> 
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Got Input?   Slashdot Needs You.
> Take our quick survey online.  Come on, we don't ask for help often.
> Plus, you'll get a chance to win $100 to spend on ThinkGeek.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/slashdot-survey
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

I think this is a reasonable interpretation - but it's just that, an
interpretation.  I think the other possibilities are also reasonable
interpretations.  Like Erik (and also the people in the 2005
discussion), I think this issue is unresolved because of a lack of
definition of terminology.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.



On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 4:03 AM, Dr. Martin Brumm
<Dr....@t-...> wrote:
> Hello,
> The principle behind that rule is that the director is not allowed to fund
> any money if theres an afforable train in the pool/ipo or funnel cash into
> another company out of his own pocket while thers a train affordable. The
> right to choose is in so far retained as he still can choose to swutch
> trains but inly for the maximum cash in the train needing company.
> Imho the point should be implemented like an automatic check if a train can
> be bought with the operating capital and that should be bought with player
> interaction.(problem arising here is the train swap between companies with
> the same director and i think thats why there is the clause with the
> director being able to choose, so maybe we can add a operation/ action to
> ask if he wants to move another train from another company.)
> If theres not enough cash for any train that should lead to a menu where the
> player gets shown his options from all available trains (pool and ipo) and
> the amount of money he needs to finance.
> In the case that the company has enough money for buying a train ( again
> from pool or ipo) and there would be more than one available from differing
> types we need a menu again stating that the director has the right to choose
> which one he wants to buy.
> Regards
> Martin
>
> Von meinem iPad gesendet
> Am 27.07.2011 um 09:49 schrieb "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>:
>
> Yes, and the next sentence says:  “If there is a choice of trains available
> then he may decide which to buy”.
>
>
>
> The problems is that “does not have enough cash” and “available” are not
> further defined.  Is the new train “available” only if the company has
> “enough cash” to buy it? That is the issue., and the rules don’t clarify
> that.  John says no. I’m undecided.
>
>
>
> I see two ways out of this conundrum:
>
> (1)    Offer both trains, and let the player ignore whatever he deems
> illegal,
>
> (2)    Add a game option (but I don’t see how this choice can be described
> in a menu item text that is not overly long).
>
>
>
> Erik
>
>
>
> From: Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:18 AM
> To: Erik Vos
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835
>
>
>
>  Hi Erik & John,
>
> Original german rule and translation following:
>
> Sollte eine Aktiengesellschaft eine Lok kaufen müssen und nicht
> If a share company is forced to buy a train and doesnt
> genügend Betriebskapital besitzen, so muß der Direktor den Fehlbetrag aus
> have enough working capital, the director must fund the missing amount of
> money out
> seinem Privatvermögen zuschießen.
> of his own private money.
>
> If there is a train in the bank pool/IPO that the company can afford the
> company has to buy that. If theres not
>
> enough money to buy even that train out of the pool/IPO the director might
> decide what and where to buy(cause he pays the money :)).
>
> Regards,
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>
> Subject: RE: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835
>
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 16:04:36 +0200
>
> From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>
>
> To: <Dr....@t-...>, "'Development list for Rails: an 18xx
> game'" <rai...@li...>
>
>
>
>
>
> It seems to me that neither interpretation (Martin’s and John’s) can be
> falsified by any close reading of the rules, be it the German or the (2nd)
> English versions.
>
>
>
> “if the company does not have enough cash to afford a train” -  it does not
> say that, it says “If a share company is forced to buy a train and does not
> have enough cash, then…” without further specifying “enough cash” -  to buy
> what exactly?
>
>
>
> Erik.
>
>
>
> From: Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 12:32 PM
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835
>
>
>
> Re 1835:
>
>
>
> Sollte eine Aktiengesellschaft eine Lok kaufen müssen und nicht
> genügend Betriebskapital besitzen, so muß der Direktor den Fehlbetrag aus
> seinem Privatvermögen zuschießen. Sollten verschiedene Loks zur Auswahl
> stehen (Bankpool), kann der Direktor frei auswählen.
>
>
>
> Sorry Erik and John but your 1835 rule understanding is wrong imho.
>
>
>
> The director can ONLY fund cash if he company cant afford any of the trains
> currently in the bank.
>
> Hes free to choose then which oine he wants if the company cant afford any.
>
>
>
> Example:
>
>
>
> 4 Train available in the pool for 300 Mark
>
> 6 Train in the bank (IPO) for 600 Mark
>
>
>
> Company has 399 Mark, director can buy the 6 with funding 201 Mark
>
> Company has 400 Mark, Company HAS to buy the available 4 !
>
>
>
> In the english rules it states if the company does not have enough cash to
> afford a train (so its the same rule as in german original).
>
> If the company can afford one train it has to buy that, only if it cant
> afford even the cheapest one, the director can choose.
>
>
>
> (And yes i got burned a number of times by that rule :))
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:02:07 +0200
> From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>
> To: "'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'"
> <rai...@li...>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...]
>
>> > 1. If a company has no train, it can buy any train on offer from Bank,
>> > Pool or other companies (at any price) that is has enough cash for.
>> > It is always obliged to buy a used (Pool) train that it can pay for,
>> > if it cannot afford a new (IPO) train.
>>
>> Not true for 1835. There, the president may add cash to buy the cheapest
>> new train from IPO even if the company can afford a train from the bank
>> pool.
>> I believe this goes for 1837, too.
>
> I have checked the English and German rules again. These aren't very clear,
> but I must admit that these can well be interpreted the way you do.
>
> The 1837 rules are almost identical. There, the relevant rule XI.11 says:
> "If there is a choice of trains available (either from the Bank Pool or from
> another company) the director may decide which to buy", which leaves me
> wondering why only the Bank Pool is mentioned, and not the Bank initial
> offering (other usage of the word Bank Pool in the 1837 rules make it clear
> that the Pool is distinct from the initial offering).
> Your version of the 1837 rules has many clarifying comments, but not one
> that deals with this issue in any way.
>
> This all still leaves me in doubt. But if no strong contrary arguments
> arise, I will take over your position.
>
> Erik.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention
> Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth
> analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to
> evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions.
> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Got Input?   Slashdot Needs You.
> Take our quick survey online.  Come on, we don't ask for help often.
> Plus, you'll get a chance to win $100 to spend on ThinkGeek.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/slashdot-survey
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Got Input?   Slashdot Needs You.
> Take our quick survey online.  Come on, we don't ask for help often.
> Plus, you'll get a chance to win $100 to spend on ThinkGeek.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/slashdot-survey
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

FWIW, this question has been discussed earlier in the [18xx] yahoo group between 7-11 March 2005, see the archive.  The result was equally inconclusive.

 

BTW at the end that discussion had drifted away to another question: whether or not the president may add cash to buy a company train *at any price*, even by selling shares for that purpose. Indeed the rules don’t state an explicit limit, so I was thinking for a moment that this was allowed.  But from analogy with other games I think we can better stick with the list price limit, so I have dropped this possibility from my list of options.

 

Erik

 

From: Dr. Martin Brumm [mailto:Dr....@t-...] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 1:04 PM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Cc: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

 

Hello,

 

The principle behind that rule is that the director is not allowed to fund any money if theres an afforable train in the pool/ipo or funnel cash into another company out of his own pocket while thers a train affordable. The right to choose is in so far retained as he still can choose to swutch trains but inly for the maximum cash in the train needing company.

 

Imho the point should be implemented like an automatic check if a train can be bought with the operating capital and that should be bought with player interaction.(problem arising here is the train swap between companies with the same director and i think thats why there is the clause with the director being able to choose, so maybe we can add a operation/ action to ask if he wants to move another train from another company.)

 

If theres not enough cash for any train that should lead to a menu where the player gets shown his options from all available trains (pool and ipo) and the amount of money he needs to finance.

 

In the case that the company has enough money for buying a train ( again from pool or ipo) and there would be more than one available from differing types we need a menu again stating that the director has the right to choose which one he wants to buy. 

 

Regards

Martin

Von meinem iPad gesendet


Am 27.07.2011 um 09:49 schrieb "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>:

Yes, and the next sentence says:  “If there is a choice of trains available then he may decide which to buy”.

 

The problems is that “does not have enough cash” and “available” are not further defined.  Is the new train “available” only if the company has “enough cash” to buy it? That is the issue., and the rules don’t clarify that.  John says no. I’m undecided.

 

I see two ways out of this conundrum:

(1)    Offer both trains, and let the player ignore whatever he deems illegal,

(2)    Add a game option (but I don’t see how this choice can be described in a menu item text that is not overly long).

 

Erik

 

From: Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:18 AM
To: Erik Vos
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

 

 Hi Erik & John,


Original german rule and translation following:

Sollte eine Aktiengesellschaft eine Lok kaufen müssen und nicht
If a share company is forced to buy a train and doesnt
genügend Betriebskapital besitzen, so muß der Direktor den Fehlbetrag aus
have enough working capital, the director must fund the missing amount of money out
seinem Privatvermögen zuschießen.
of his own private money.

If there is a train in the bank pool/IPO that the company can afford the company has to buy that. If theres not

enough money to buy even that train out of the pool/IPO the director might decide what and where to buy(cause he pays the money :)).

Regards,

Martin

 

 

-----Original-Nachricht-----

Subject: RE: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 16:04:36 +0200

From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>

To: <Dr....@t-...>, "'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'" <rai...@li...>

 

 

It seems to me that neither interpretation (Martin’s and John’s) can be falsified by any close reading of the rules, be it the German or the (2nd) English versions.

 

“if the company does not have enough cash to afford a train” -  it does not say that, it says “If a share company is forced to buy a train and does not have enough cash, then…” without further specifying “enough cash” -  to buy what exactly?

 

Erik.

 

From: Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 12:32 PM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

 

Re 1835:

 

Sollte eine Aktiengesellschaft eine Lok kaufen müssen und nicht
genügend Betriebskapital besitzen, so muß der Direktor den Fehlbetrag aus
seinem Privatvermögen zuschießen. Sollten verschiedene Loks zur Auswahl
stehen (Bankpool), kann der Direktor frei auswählen.

 

Sorry Erik and John but your 1835 rule understanding is wrong imho.

 

The director can ONLY fund cash if he company cant afford any of the trains currently in the bank.

Hes free to choose then which oine he wants if the company cant afford any.

 

Example:

 

4 Train available in the pool for 300 Mark

6 Train in the bank (IPO) for 600 Mark

 

Company has 399 Mark, director can buy the 6 with funding 201 Mark

Company has 400 Mark, Company HAS to buy the available 4 !

 

In the english rules it states if the company does not have enough cash to afford a train (so its the same rule as in german original).

If the company can afford one train it has to buy that, only if it cant afford even the cheapest one, the director can choose.

 

(And yes i got burned a number of times by that rule :))

 

Regards,

 

 


-----Original-Nachricht-----
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:02:07 +0200
From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>
To: "'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'" <rai...@li...>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...]

> > 1. If a company has no train, it can buy any train on offer from Bank,
> > Pool or other companies (at any price) that is has enough cash for.
> > It is always obliged to buy a used (Pool) train that it can pay for,
> > if it cannot afford a new (IPO) train.
> 
> Not true for 1835. There, the president may add cash to buy the cheapest
> new train from IPO even if the company can afford a train from the bank
> pool.
> I believe this goes for 1837, too.

I have checked the English and German rules again. These aren't very clear,
but I must admit that these can well be interpreted the way you do. 

The 1837 rules are almost identical. There, the relevant rule XI.11 says:
"If there is a choice of trains available (either from the Bank Pool or from
another company) the director may decide which to buy", which leaves me
wondering why only the Bank Pool is mentioned, and not the Bank initial
offering (other usage of the word Bank Pool in the 1837 rules make it clear
that the Pool is distinct from the initial offering). 
Your version of the 1837 rules has many clarifying comments, but not one
that deals with this issue in any way.

This all still leaves me in doubt. But if no strong contrary arguments
arise, I will take over your position.

Erik.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention
Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth
analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to
evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions.
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/
_______________________________________________
Rails-devel mailing list
Rai...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

 

 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Got Input?   Slashdot Needs You.
Take our quick survey online.  Come on, we don't ask for help often.
Plus, you'll get a chance to win $100 to spend on ThinkGeek.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/slashdot-survey

_______________________________________________
Rails-devel mailing list
Rai...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

[Dr. M. B. <Dr....@t-...>]

Hello,

The principle behind that rule is that the director is not allowed to fund any money if theres an afforable train in the pool/ipo or funnel cash into another company out of his own pocket while thers a train affordable. The right to choose is in so far retained as he still can choose to swutch trains but inly for the maximum cash in the train needing company.

Imho the point should be implemented like an automatic check if a train can be bought with the operating capital and that should be bought with player interaction.(problem arising here is the train swap between companies with the same director and i think thats why there is the clause with the director being able to choose, so maybe we can add a operation/ action to ask if he wants to move another train from another company.)

If theres not enough cash for any train that should lead to a menu where the player gets shown his options from all available trains (pool and ipo) and the amount of money he needs to finance.

In the case that the company has enough money for buying a train ( again from pool or ipo) and there would be more than one available from differing types we need a menu again stating that the director has the right to choose which one he wants to buy. 

Regards
Martin

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 27.07.2011 um 09:49 schrieb "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>:

> Yes, and the next sentence says:  “If there is a choice of trains available then he may decide which to buy”.
> 
>  
> 
> The problems is that “does not have enough cash” and “available” are not further defined.  Is the new train “available” only if the company has “enough cash” to buy it? That is the issue., and the rules don’t clarify that.  John says no. I’m undecided.
> 
>  
> 
> I see two ways out of this conundrum:
> 
> (1)    Offer both trains, and let the player ignore whatever he deems illegal,
> 
> (2)    Add a game option (but I don’t see how this choice can be described in a menu item text that is not overly long).
> 
>  
> 
> Erik
> 
>  
> 
> From: Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...] 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:18 AM
> To: Erik Vos
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835
> 
>  
> 
>  Hi Erik & John,
> 
> Original german rule and translation following:
> Sollte eine Aktiengesellschaft eine Lok kaufen müssen und nicht
> If a share company is forced to buy a train and doesnt
> genügend Betriebskapital besitzen, so muß der Direktor den Fehlbetrag aus
> have enough working capital, the director must fund the missing amount of money out
> seinem Privatvermögen zuschießen.
> of his own private money.
> 
> If there is a train in the bank pool/IPO that the company can afford the company has to buy that. If theres not
> 
> enough money to buy even that train out of the pool/IPO the director might decide what and where to buy(cause he pays the money :)).
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martin
>  
>  
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
> Subject: RE: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 16:04:36 +0200
> From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>
> To: <Dr....@t-...>, "'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'" <rai...@li...>
>  
>  
> It seems to me that neither interpretation (Martin’s and John’s) can be falsified by any close reading of the rules, be it the German or the (2nd) English versions.
> 
>  
> 
> “if the company does not have enough cash to afford a train” -  it does not say that, it says “If a share company is forced to buy a train and does not have enough cash, then…” without further specifying “enough cash” -  to buy what exactly?
> 
>  
> 
> Erik.
> 
>  
> 
> From: Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...] 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 12:32 PM
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835
> 
>  
> 
> Re 1835:
>  
> Sollte eine Aktiengesellschaft eine Lok kaufen müssen und nicht
> genügend Betriebskapital besitzen, so muß der Direktor den Fehlbetrag aus
> seinem Privatvermögen zuschießen. Sollten verschiedene Loks zur Auswahl
> stehen (Bankpool), kann der Direktor frei auswählen.
>  
> Sorry Erik and John but your 1835 rule understanding is wrong imho.
>  
> The director can ONLY fund cash if he company cant afford any of the trains currently in the bank.
> Hes free to choose then which oine he wants if the company cant afford any.
>  
> Example:
>  
> 4 Train available in the pool for 300 Mark
> 6 Train in the bank (IPO) for 600 Mark
>  
> Company has 399 Mark, director can buy the 6 with funding 201 Mark
> Company has 400 Mark, Company HAS to buy the available 4 !
>  
> In the english rules it states if the company does not have enough cash to afford a train (so its the same rule as in german original).
> If the company can afford one train it has to buy that, only if it cant afford even the cheapest one, the director can choose.
>  
> (And yes i got burned a number of times by that rule :))
>  
> Regards,
>  
>  
> 
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:02:07 +0200
> From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>
> To: "'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'" <rai...@li...>
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...]
> 
> > > 1. If a company has no train, it can buy any train on offer from Bank,
> > > Pool or other companies (at any price) that is has enough cash for.
> > > It is always obliged to buy a used (Pool) train that it can pay for,
> > > if it cannot afford a new (IPO) train.
> > 
> > Not true for 1835. There, the president may add cash to buy the cheapest
> > new train from IPO even if the company can afford a train from the bank
> > pool.
> > I believe this goes for 1837, too.
> 
> I have checked the English and German rules again. These aren't very clear,
> but I must admit that these can well be interpreted the way you do. 
> 
> The 1837 rules are almost identical. There, the relevant rule XI.11 says:
> "If there is a choice of trains available (either from the Bank Pool or from
> another company) the director may decide which to buy", which leaves me
> wondering why only the Bank Pool is mentioned, and not the Bank initial
> offering (other usage of the word Bank Pool in the 1837 rules make it clear
> that the Pool is distinct from the initial offering). 
> Your version of the 1837 rules has many clarifying comments, but not one
> that deals with this issue in any way.
> 
> This all still leaves me in doubt. But if no strong contrary arguments
> arise, I will take over your position.
> 
> Erik.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention
> Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth
> analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to
> evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions.
> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>  
>  
>  
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Got Input?   Slashdot Needs You.
> Take our quick survey online.  Come on, we don't ask for help often.
> Plus, you'll get a chance to win $100 to spend on ThinkGeek.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/slashdot-survey
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Yes, and the next sentence says:  “If there is a choice of trains available then he may decide which to buy”.

 

The problems is that “does not have enough cash” and “available” are not further defined.  Is the new train “available” only if the company has “enough cash” to buy it? That is the issue., and the rules don’t clarify that.  John says no. I’m undecided.

 

I see two ways out of this conundrum:

(1)    Offer both trains, and let the player ignore whatever he deems illegal,

(2)    Add a game option (but I don’t see how this choice can be described in a menu item text that is not overly long).

 

Erik

 

From: Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:18 AM
To: Erik Vos
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

 

 Hi Erik & John,


Original german rule and translation following:

Sollte eine Aktiengesellschaft eine Lok kaufen müssen und nicht
If a share company is forced to buy a train and doesnt
genügend Betriebskapital besitzen, so muß der Direktor den Fehlbetrag aus
have enough working capital, the director must fund the missing amount of money out
seinem Privatvermögen zuschießen.
of his own private money.

If there is a train in the bank pool/IPO that the company can afford the company has to buy that. If theres not

enough money to buy even that train out of the pool/IPO the director might decide what and where to buy(cause he pays the money :)).

Regards,

Martin

 

 

-----Original-Nachricht-----

Subject: RE: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 16:04:36 +0200

From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>

To: <Dr....@t-...>, "'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'" <rai...@li...>

 

 

It seems to me that neither interpretation (Martin’s and John’s) can be falsified by any close reading of the rules, be it the German or the (2nd) English versions.

 

“if the company does not have enough cash to afford a train” -  it does not say that, it says “If a share company is forced to buy a train and does not have enough cash, then…” without further specifying “enough cash” -  to buy what exactly?

 

Erik.

 

From: Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 12:32 PM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

 

Re 1835:

 

Sollte eine Aktiengesellschaft eine Lok kaufen müssen und nicht
genügend Betriebskapital besitzen, so muß der Direktor den Fehlbetrag aus
seinem Privatvermögen zuschießen. Sollten verschiedene Loks zur Auswahl
stehen (Bankpool), kann der Direktor frei auswählen.

 

Sorry Erik and John but your 1835 rule understanding is wrong imho.

 

The director can ONLY fund cash if he company cant afford any of the trains currently in the bank.

Hes free to choose then which oine he wants if the company cant afford any.

 

Example:

 

4 Train available in the pool for 300 Mark

6 Train in the bank (IPO) for 600 Mark

 

Company has 399 Mark, director can buy the 6 with funding 201 Mark

Company has 400 Mark, Company HAS to buy the available 4 !

 

In the english rules it states if the company does not have enough cash to afford a train (so its the same rule as in german original).

If the company can afford one train it has to buy that, only if it cant afford even the cheapest one, the director can choose.

 

(And yes i got burned a number of times by that rule :))

 

Regards,

 

 


-----Original-Nachricht-----
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:02:07 +0200
From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>
To: "'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'" <rai...@li...>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...]

> > 1. If a company has no train, it can buy any train on offer from Bank,
> > Pool or other companies (at any price) that is has enough cash for.
> > It is always obliged to buy a used (Pool) train that it can pay for,
> > if it cannot afford a new (IPO) train.
> 
> Not true for 1835. There, the president may add cash to buy the cheapest
> new train from IPO even if the company can afford a train from the bank
> pool.
> I believe this goes for 1837, too.

I have checked the English and German rules again. These aren't very clear,
but I must admit that these can well be interpreted the way you do. 

The 1837 rules are almost identical. There, the relevant rule XI.11 says:
"If there is a choice of trains available (either from the Bank Pool or from
another company) the director may decide which to buy", which leaves me
wondering why only the Bank Pool is mentioned, and not the Bank initial
offering (other usage of the word Bank Pool in the 1837 rules make it clear
that the Pool is distinct from the initial offering). 
Your version of the 1837 rules has many clarifying comments, but not one
that deals with this issue in any way.

This all still leaves me in doubt. But if no strong contrary arguments
arise, I will take over your position.

Erik.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention
Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth
analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to
evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions.
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/
_______________________________________________
Rails-devel mailing list
Rai...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

 

 

 

 

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

Erik,
I understand that in your definition of the scope of the Operating Round class, emergency train buying belongs there. Thus I should better ask for a narrower scope of this class. Including everything what is required for processing actions from companies operating is in my opinion too broad. But I know your different opinion. However this scares other purple from changing anything there. I would only dare to change the class after serious refactoring. I hope you do not mind my different view.
Stefan


Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> schrieb:

>Stefan,
>
>All I'm doing now is updating the existing OperatingRound setBuyableTrains()
>method, using a few generic configuration settings, to implement the
>possible answers to a single main question that arises if a company has no
>trains:  
>
>	Which trains are allowed to be bought at which (maximum) price,
>given the amount of cash *currently* owned by the company and its president?
>
>So far the following decision factors that affect the answer to this main
>question have been identified:
>1. If a train from the Bank is bought, must the company buy the cheapest
>(used) train, even if he has sufficient cash to buy a more expensive (new)
>train?
>2. If not, may the president add cash to buy a new train if the company only
>has sufficient cash to buy a cheaper used train? 
>3. May presidents add cash to buy a train from a company?
>4. If so, to what maximum price? (Usually list price is the upper limit, but
>the allowed max. price can be lower if the president is not allowed to sell
>shares in this case, which always seems to be so. In that case the max.
>price is the lowest of the list price and the total cash owned by the
>company and its president.  So I think this question is practically
>equivalent to: May a president raise cash, e.g. by selling shares, to help
>buying a train from a company?  So far the answer to that last question
>always seems to be "no", which would make this question redundant).
>
>I appreciate all efforts to explain to me how companies and presidents can
>raise cash by other means, such as selling shares, taking loans, issuing
>bonds etc., but that is *not* what I'm currently asking for.  As it turns
>out, getting the answers to the above questions is difficult enough, and
>that is all I need in this stage.
>
>What I might do for you is to abstract away these decisions in Boolean
>methods (still in OperatingRound) that can be overridden. But I'm not sure
>to what extent that would be helpful. I don't expect many game-specific
>variations on the number of these basic decisions (affecting that single
>main question) and their possible answers.
>
>Please note, that I intend to put the new configuration settings under
><GameParameters> in Game.xml.  For instance, for 1856 I now have
>	<OperatingRound
>class="rails.game.specific._1856.OperatingRound_1856">
>	                <EmergencyTrainBuying mustBuyCheapestTrain="yes"
>mayBuyFromCompany="no"/>
>	</OperatingRound>
>These new game parameters will be stored in the common gameParameters
>collection in GameManager; the grouping under <OperatingRound> is only
>logical, not physical.
>
>Erik.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stefan Frey [mailto:ste...@we...]
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 12:12 PM
>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
>> 
>> Erik:
>> I cannot add now to any of the rules question as I am currently traveling,
>but
>> it seems that you are considering already a broad variety of rules.
>> 
>> I only ask for a favor with respect to the implementation:
>> Could you please put (nearly) all code related to the emergency train
>> purchases into one (new) class: Most likely a sub-component of
>> TrainManager.
>> This would also allow it to be easily be replaced by games which have
>not-yet
>> considered rules.
>> Please avoid adding it to the OperatingRound class as I intend it to
>refactor it
>> anyhow into smaller pieces.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Stefan
>> 
>> 
>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--
>> Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention Research study
>> explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth analysis on
>the
>> changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to evaluate the
>> strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions.
>> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention
>Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth
>analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to
>evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions.
>http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/
>_______________________________________________
>Rails-devel mailing list
>Rai...@li...
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

It seems to me that neither interpretation (Martin’s and John’s) can be falsified by any close reading of the rules, be it the German or the (2nd) English versions.

 

“if the company does not have enough cash to afford a train” -  it does not say that, it says “If a share company is forced to buy a train and does not have enough cash, then…” without further specifying “enough cash” -  to buy what exactly?

 

Erik.

 

From: Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 12:32 PM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

 

Re 1835:

 

Sollte eine Aktiengesellschaft eine Lok kaufen müssen und nicht
genügend Betriebskapital besitzen, so muß der Direktor den Fehlbetrag aus
seinem Privatvermögen zuschießen. Sollten verschiedene Loks zur Auswahl
stehen (Bankpool), kann der Direktor frei auswählen.

 

Sorry Erik and John but your 1835 rule understanding is wrong imho.

 

The director can ONLY fund cash if he company cant afford any of the trains currently in the bank.

Hes free to choose then which oine he wants if the company cant afford any.

 

Example:

 

4 Train available in the pool for 300 Mark

6 Train in the bank (IPO) for 600 Mark

 

Company has 399 Mark, director can buy the 6 with funding 201 Mark

Company has 400 Mark, Company HAS to buy the available 4 !

 

In the english rules it states if the company does not have enough cash to afford a train (so its the same rule as in german original).

If the company can afford one train it has to buy that, only if it cant afford even the cheapest one, the director can choose.

 

(And yes i got burned a number of times by that rule :))

 

Regards,

 

 


-----Original-Nachricht-----
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:02:07 +0200
From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>
To: "'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'" <rai...@li...>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...]

> > 1. If a company has no train, it can buy any train on offer from Bank,
> > Pool or other companies (at any price) that is has enough cash for.
> > It is always obliged to buy a used (Pool) train that it can pay for,
> > if it cannot afford a new (IPO) train.
> 
> Not true for 1835. There, the president may add cash to buy the cheapest
> new train from IPO even if the company can afford a train from the bank
> pool.
> I believe this goes for 1837, too.

I have checked the English and German rules again. These aren't very clear,
but I must admit that these can well be interpreted the way you do. 

The 1837 rules are almost identical. There, the relevant rule XI.11 says:
"If there is a choice of trains available (either from the Bank Pool or from
another company) the director may decide which to buy", which leaves me
wondering why only the Bank Pool is mentioned, and not the Bank initial
offering (other usage of the word Bank Pool in the 1837 rules make it clear
that the Pool is distinct from the initial offering). 
Your version of the 1837 rules has many clarifying comments, but not one
that deals with this issue in any way.

This all still leaves me in doubt. But if no strong contrary arguments
arise, I will take over your position.

Erik.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention
Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth
analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to
evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions.
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/
_______________________________________________
Rails-devel mailing list
Rai...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

 

 

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Stefan,

All I'm doing now is updating the existing OperatingRound setBuyableTrains()
method, using a few generic configuration settings, to implement the
possible answers to a single main question that arises if a company has no
trains:  

	Which trains are allowed to be bought at which (maximum) price,
given the amount of cash *currently* owned by the company and its president?

So far the following decision factors that affect the answer to this main
question have been identified:
1. If a train from the Bank is bought, must the company buy the cheapest
(used) train, even if he has sufficient cash to buy a more expensive (new)
train?
2. If not, may the president add cash to buy a new train if the company only
has sufficient cash to buy a cheaper used train? 
3. May presidents add cash to buy a train from a company?
4. If so, to what maximum price? (Usually list price is the upper limit, but
the allowed max. price can be lower if the president is not allowed to sell
shares in this case, which always seems to be so. In that case the max.
price is the lowest of the list price and the total cash owned by the
company and its president.  So I think this question is practically
equivalent to: May a president raise cash, e.g. by selling shares, to help
buying a train from a company?  So far the answer to that last question
always seems to be "no", which would make this question redundant).

I appreciate all efforts to explain to me how companies and presidents can
raise cash by other means, such as selling shares, taking loans, issuing
bonds etc., but that is *not* what I'm currently asking for.  As it turns
out, getting the answers to the above questions is difficult enough, and
that is all I need in this stage.

What I might do for you is to abstract away these decisions in Boolean
methods (still in OperatingRound) that can be overridden. But I'm not sure
to what extent that would be helpful. I don't expect many game-specific
variations on the number of these basic decisions (affecting that single
main question) and their possible answers.

Please note, that I intend to put the new configuration settings under
<GameParameters> in Game.xml.  For instance, for 1856 I now have
	<OperatingRound
class="rails.game.specific._1856.OperatingRound_1856">
	                <EmergencyTrainBuying mustBuyCheapestTrain="yes"
mayBuyFromCompany="no"/>
	</OperatingRound>
These new game parameters will be stored in the common gameParameters
collection in GameManager; the grouping under <OperatingRound> is only
logical, not physical.

Erik.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefan Frey [mailto:ste...@we...]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 12:12 PM
> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
> 
> Erik:
> I cannot add now to any of the rules question as I am currently traveling,
but
> it seems that you are considering already a broad variety of rules.
> 
> I only ask for a favor with respect to the implementation:
> Could you please put (nearly) all code related to the emergency train
> purchases into one (new) class: Most likely a sub-component of
> TrainManager.
> This would also allow it to be easily be replaced by games which have
not-yet
> considered rules.
> Please avoid adding it to the OperatingRound class as I intend it to
refactor it
> anyhow into smaller pieces.
> 
> Thanks,
> Stefan
> 
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention Research study
> explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth analysis on
the
> changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to evaluate the
> strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions.
> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases -1880 variant

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Thanks!  I had overlooked that line. It’s all clear now.

 

Erik.

 

From: Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 12:49 PM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases -1880 variant

 

Hi Erik,

 

o
Bei einem Zwangs-Lokkauf muss eine Lok aus der Bank erworben werden.


In 1880 you are not allowed in an emergency train purchase to buy a train from anyone else than the bank.

 

Regards,

Martin

 

 

 

-----Original-Nachricht-----

Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases -1880 variant

Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:35:51 +0200

From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>

To: <Dr....@t-...>, "'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'" <rai...@li...>

 

 

Martin,

 

Yes, but my main question is: in what circumstances can the situation arise that we must conclude that “the company has not enough money to buy a train from the bank” if there is a choice of trains available, including trains from other companies.

 

On rereading the rules it seems to me that 1880 has no such thing as a “Bank Pool” for trains:  “Loks, die aufgrund eines Phasenwechsels überzählig sind, gehen ersatzlos aus dem Spiel”, i.e. superfluous trains are removed from the game. So there are no used trains.  That much simplifies the situation. But it does not entirely resolve all issues. 

 

Say, a company has no train and ¥200 cash.  The next train for sale from the Bank is a 6-train which costs ¥600.  The director has another company which owns a 4-train of ¥300.

Is it then allowed to buy that company train for, say, ¥250, so that the director has to add ¥ 50 cash?

Is it allowed to buy that same train for ¥400 (above the list price), so that the director has to add ¥200 cash?

 

I can’t find anything in the 1880 rules that forbids either of these actions. Allowing buys like the first one (¥250) is pretty common in 18xx games. But it would be unusual if the second option (¥400) would be allowed, because most games restrict such prices (with director assistance) to the list price as a maximum.

 

Erik.

 

From: Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 9:14 AM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases -1880 variant

 

Hi Erik,

 

If the company has not enough money to buy a train from the bank (any train besides the refurbished 2s)the director has to make up the difference from his money.

 

To that point he may:

 

- sell shares but no director change may occure

- take out a loan (just possible to finance trains in emergency)

 

He is not allowed to

 

- sell private companies

 

If the director has taken out a loan at the end of the transaction 50% of the loan value gets booked as interest on the loan (director takes out a loan of 100 € at the end of the transaction hes liable for 150€)

 

Implication: if the loan aint paid off the director cant buy shares in subsequent Stockrounds. At the end of a stockround the loan gets extended by 50% of its current value each stockround its not paid off full.

 

Rules original text in german follows:

Der Direktor muss den Fehlbetrag aus seinem Privatvermögen ausgleichen.
o
Hat der Direktor dafür nicht genügend Bargeld, darf er Aktien verkaufen.
o
Durch diese Verkäufe darf bei keiner Gesellschaft ein Direktorwechsel stattfinden.
o
Privatbahnen dürfen nie verkauft werden.
o
Will oder kann der Direktor keine Aktien mehr verkaufen, kommen auf die verbliebenen
Schulden sofort 50% Zinsen hinzu (aufgerundet).
o
Bevor der Spieler in dieser oder in folgenden AR Anteile kaufen darf, muss er seine Schulden
vollständig zurückgezahlt haben.
o
Der Spieler darf jederzeit während einer AR seine Schulden ganz oder teilweise zurückzahlen.
Dafür kann er Anteile verkaufen, muss es aber nicht.
o
Am Ende jeder AR kommen auf verbliebene Schulden wiederum 50% Zinsen hinzu.
o
Dadurch gibt es in diesem Spiel keinen Bankrott.
o
Bei einem Zwangs-Lokkauf muss eine Lok aus der Bank erworben werden.
o
Die Gesellschaft darf bei einem Zwangs-Lokkauf keine weiteren Loks kaufen
o
Eine restaurierte 2er Lok darf nie notfinanziert werden.

 

 


Regards,

Martin

-----Original-Nachricht-----
Subject: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 13:42:10 +0200
From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>
To: "Development list for Rails: an 18xx game" <rai...@li...>

I'm working to get the emergency train buying rules right. Currently, all
Rails games follow the 1830 rules, and several people have already
complained about that.

I had a brief look into 1880, but it's not clear to me what the verdicts are
for this game.

Erik.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Storage Efficiency Calculator
This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that
has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage-
ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to 
the right place. Try It Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/
_______________________________________________
Rails-devel mailing list
Rai...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

 

 

 

 

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases -1880 variant

[<Dr....@t-...>]

<p style="margin: 0pt;">Hi Erik,</p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;">&nbsp;</p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">o<br />Bei einem Zwangs-Lokkauf muss eine Lok aus der Bank erworben werden.</span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><br /><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">In 1880 you are not allowed in an emergency train purchase to buy a train from anyone else than the bank.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;">&nbsp;</p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">Regards,</font></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">Martin<br /></font></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #000000;"><br /></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;">&nbsp;</p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;">&nbsp;</p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;">-----Original-Nachricht-----</p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;">Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases -1880 variant</p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;">Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:35:51 +0200</p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;">From: "Erik Vos" &lt;eri...@xs...&gt;</p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;">To: &lt;Dr....@t-...&gt;, "'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'" &lt;rai...@li...&gt;</p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;">&nbsp;</p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;">&nbsp;</p>
<div style="position: relative;">
<style><!--
 /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0cm; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0cm; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph {mso-style-priority:34; margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:0cm; margin-left:36.0pt; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} span.E-mailStijl18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;}
--></style>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">Martin,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">Yes, but my main question is: in what circumstances can the situation arise that we must conclude that &ldquo;the company has not enough money to buy a train from the bank&rdquo; if there is a choice of trains available, including trains from other companies.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">On rereading the rules it seems to me that 1880 has no such thing as a &ldquo;Bank Pool&rdquo; for trains:&nbsp; &ldquo;Loks, die aufgrund eines Phasenwechsels &uuml;berz&auml;hlig sind, gehen ersatzlos aus dem Spiel&rdquo;, i.e. superfluous trains are removed from the game. So there are no used trains.&nbsp; That much simplifies the situation. But it does not entirely resolve all issues. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">Say, a company has no train and </span></font><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">&yen;200 cash.&nbsp; The next train for sale from the Bank is a 6-train which costs &yen;600.&nbsp; The director has another company which owns a 4-train of &yen;300.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">Is it then allowed to buy that company train for, say, &yen;250, so that the director has to add &yen; 50 cash?</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">Is it allowed to buy that same train for &yen;400 (above the list price), so that the director has to add &yen;200 cash?</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">I can&rsquo;t find anything in the 1880 rules that forbids either of these actions. Allowing buys like the first one (&yen;250) is pretty common in 18xx games. But it would be unusual if the second option (&yen;400) would be allowed, because most games restrict such prices (with director assistance) to the list price as a maximum.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">Erik.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: #1f497d;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>
<div>
<div style="border: none; border-top: solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><strong><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></strong><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;"> Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...] <br /><strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></strong> Tuesday, July 26, 2011 9:14 AM<br /><strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></strong> Development list for Rails: an 18xx game<br /><strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></strong> Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases -1880 variant</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Arial" size="3" color="black"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: black;">Hi Erik,</span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">If the company has not enough money to buy a train from the bank (any train besides the refurbished 2s)the director has to make up the difference from his money.</span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">To that point he may:</span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">- sell shares but no director change may occure</span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">- take out a loan (just possible to finance trains in emergency)</span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0pt;"><font face=

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases -1880 variant

[<Dr....@t-...>]

Hi Erik, 

	o
Bei einem Zwangs-Lokkauf muss eine Lok aus der Bank erworben werden. 

In 1880 you are not allowed in an emergency train purchase to buy a
train from anyone else than the bank. 

	Regards, 

	Martin

	-----Original-Nachricht----- 

	Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases -1880 variant 

	Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:35:51 +0200 

	From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...> 

	To: <Dr....@t-...>, "'Development list for Rails: an
18xx game'" <rai...@li...> 

	Martin, 

	Yes, but my main question is: in what circumstances can the situation
arise that we must conclude that “the company has not enough money
to buy a train from the bank” if there is a choice of trains
available, including trains from other companies. 

	On rereading the rules it seems to me that 1880 has no such thing as
a “Bank Pool” for trains:  “Loks, die aufgrund eines
Phasenwechsels überzählig sind, gehen ersatzlos aus dem Spiel”,
i.e. superfluous trains are removed from the game. So there are no
used trains.  That much simplifies the situation. But it does not
entirely resolve all issues.  

	Say, a company has no train and ¥200 cash.  The next train for sale
from the Bank is a 6-train which costs ¥600.  The director has
another company which owns a 4-train of ¥300. 

	Is it then allowed to buy that company train for, say, ¥250, so that
the director has to add ¥ 50 cash? 

	Is it allowed to buy that same train for ¥400 (above the list
price), so that the director has to add ¥200 cash? 

	I can’t find anything in the 1880 rules that forbids either of
these actions. Allowing buys like the first one (¥250) is pretty
common in 18xx games. But it would be unusual if the second option
(¥400) would be allowed, because most games restrict such prices
(with director assistance) to the list price as a maximum. 

	Erik. 

	From: Dr....@t-...
[mailto:Dr....@t-...] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 9:14 AM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases -1880 variant   

	Hi Erik, 

	If the company has not enough money to buy a train from the bank (any
train besides the refurbished 2s)the director has to make up the
difference from his money. 

	To that point he may: 

	- sell shares but no director change may occure 

	- take out a loan (just possible to finance trains in emergency) 

	He is not allowed to 

	- sell private companies 

	If the director has taken out a loan at the end of the transaction
50% of the loan value gets booked as interest on the loan (director
takes out a loan of 100 € at the end of the transaction hes liable
for 150€) 

	Implication: if the loan aint paid off the director cant buy shares
in subsequent Stockrounds. At the end of a stockround the loan gets
extended by 50% of its current value each stockround its not paid off
full. 

	Rules original text in german follows: 

	Der Direktor muss den Fehlbetrag aus seinem Privatvermögen
ausgleichen.
o
Hat der Direktor dafür nicht genügend Bargeld, darf er Aktien
verkaufen.
o
Durch diese Verkäufe darf bei keiner Gesellschaft ein Direktorwechsel
stattfinden.
o
Privatbahnen dürfen nie verkauft werden.
o
Will oder kann der Direktor keine Aktien mehr verkaufen, kommen auf
die verbliebenen
Schulden sofort 50% Zinsen hinzu (aufgerundet).
o
Bevor der Spieler in dieser oder in folgenden AR Anteile kaufen darf,
muss er seine Schulden
vollständig zurückgezahlt haben.
o
Der Spieler darf jederzeit während einer AR seine Schulden ganz oder
teilweise zurückzahlen.
Dafür kann er Anteile verkaufen, muss es aber nicht.
o
Am Ende jeder AR kommen auf verbliebene Schulden wiederum 50% Zinsen
hinzu.
o
Dadurch gibt es in diesem Spiel keinen Bankrott.
o
Bei einem Zwangs-Lokkauf muss eine Lok aus der Bank erworben werden.
o
Die Gesellschaft darf bei einem Zwangs-Lokkauf keine weiteren Loks
kaufen
o
Eine restaurierte 2er Lok darf nie notfinanziert werden. 

Regards, 

	Martin 

	-----Original-Nachricht-----
Subject: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 13:42:10 +0200
From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs... [1]>
To: "Development list for Rails: an 18xx game"
<rai...@li... [2]>

I'm working to get the emergency train buying rules right. Currently,
all
Rails games follow the 1830 rules, and several people have already
complained about that.

I had a brief look into 1880, but it's not clear to me what the
verdicts are
for this game.

Erik.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Storage Efficiency Calculator
This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property
that
has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization
engage-
ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data
to 
the right place. Try It Now!
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ [3]
_______________________________________________
Rails-devel mailing list
Rai...@li... [4]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel [5]

Links:
------
[1] mailto:eri...@xs...
[2] mailto:rai...@li...
[3] http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/
[4] mailto:Rai...@li...
[5] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases -1880 variant

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Martin,

 

Yes, but my main question is: in what circumstances can the situation arise that we must conclude that “the company has not enough money to buy a train from the bank” if there is a choice of trains available, including trains from other companies.

 

On rereading the rules it seems to me that 1880 has no such thing as a “Bank Pool” for trains:  “Loks, die aufgrund eines Phasenwechsels überzählig sind, gehen ersatzlos aus dem Spiel”, i.e. superfluous trains are removed from the game. So there are no used trains.  That much simplifies the situation. But it does not entirely resolve all issues. 

 

Say, a company has no train and ¥200 cash.  The next train for sale from the Bank is a 6-train which costs ¥600.  The director has another company which owns a 4-train of ¥300.

Is it then allowed to buy that company train for, say, ¥250, so that the director has to add ¥ 50 cash?

Is it allowed to buy that same train for ¥400 (above the list price), so that the director has to add ¥200 cash?

 

I can’t find anything in the 1880 rules that forbids either of these actions. Allowing buys like the first one (¥250) is pretty common in 18xx games. But it would be unusual if the second option (¥400) would be allowed, because most games restrict such prices (with director assistance) to the list price as a maximum.

 

Erik.

 

From: Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 9:14 AM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases -1880 variant

 

Hi Erik,

 

If the company has not enough money to buy a train from the bank (any train besides the refurbished 2s)the director has to make up the difference from his money.

 

To that point he may:

 

- sell shares but no director change may occure

- take out a loan (just possible to finance trains in emergency)

 

He is not allowed to

 

- sell private companies

 

If the director has taken out a loan at the end of the transaction 50% of the loan value gets booked as interest on the loan (director takes out a loan of 100 € at the end of the transaction hes liable for 150€)

 

Implication: if the loan aint paid off the director cant buy shares in subsequent Stockrounds. At the end of a stockround the loan gets extended by 50% of its current value each stockround its not paid off full.

 

Rules original text in german follows:

Der Direktor muss den Fehlbetrag aus seinem Privatvermögen ausgleichen.
o
Hat der Direktor dafür nicht genügend Bargeld, darf er Aktien verkaufen.
o
Durch diese Verkäufe darf bei keiner Gesellschaft ein Direktorwechsel stattfinden.
o
Privatbahnen dürfen nie verkauft werden.
o
Will oder kann der Direktor keine Aktien mehr verkaufen, kommen auf die verbliebenen
Schulden sofort 50% Zinsen hinzu (aufgerundet).
o
Bevor der Spieler in dieser oder in folgenden AR Anteile kaufen darf, muss er seine Schulden
vollständig zurückgezahlt haben.
o
Der Spieler darf jederzeit während einer AR seine Schulden ganz oder teilweise zurückzahlen.
Dafür kann er Anteile verkaufen, muss es aber nicht.
o
Am Ende jeder AR kommen auf verbliebene Schulden wiederum 50% Zinsen hinzu.
o
Dadurch gibt es in diesem Spiel keinen Bankrott.
o
Bei einem Zwangs-Lokkauf muss eine Lok aus der Bank erworben werden.
o
Die Gesellschaft darf bei einem Zwangs-Lokkauf keine weiteren Loks kaufen
o
Eine restaurierte 2er Lok darf nie notfinanziert werden.

 

 


Regards,

Martin

-----Original-Nachricht-----
Subject: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 13:42:10 +0200
From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>
To: "Development list for Rails: an 18xx game" <rai...@li...>

I'm working to get the emergency train buying rules right. Currently, all
Rails games follow the 1830 rules, and several people have already
complained about that.

I had a brief look into 1880, but it's not clear to me what the verdicts are
for this game.

Erik.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Storage Efficiency Calculator
This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that
has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage-
ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to 
the right place. Try It Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/
_______________________________________________
Rails-devel mailing list
Rai...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

 

 

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835

[<Dr....@t-...>]

Re 1835: 

	Sollte eine Aktiengesellschaft eine Lok kaufen müssen und nicht
genügend Betriebskapital besitzen, so muß der Direktor den
Fehlbetrag aus
seinem Privatvermögen zuschießen. Sollten verschiedene Loks zur
Auswahl
stehen (Bankpool), kann der Direktor frei auswählen. 

	Sorry Erik and John but your 1835 rule understanding is wrong imho. 

	The director can ONLY fund cash if he company cant afford any of the
trains currently in the bank. 

	Hes free to choose then which oine he wants if the company cant
afford any. 

	Example: 

	4 Train available in the pool for 300 Mark 

	6 Train in the bank (IPO) for 600 Mark 

	Company has 399 Mark, director can buy the 6 with funding 201 Mark 

	Company has 400 Mark, Company HAS to buy the available 4 ! 

	In the english rules it states if the company does not have enough
cash to afford a train (so its the same rule as in german original). 

	If the company can afford one train it has to buy that, only if it
cant afford even the cheapest one, the director can choose. 

	(And yes i got burned a number of times by that rule :)) 

	Regards, 

 -----Original-Nachricht-----
 Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
 Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:02:07 +0200
 From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>
 To: "'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'"
<rai...@li...>

 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...]

 > > 1. If a company has no train, it can buy any train on offer from
Bank,
 > > Pool or other companies (at any price) that is has enough cash
for.
 > > It is always obliged to buy a used (Pool) train that it can pay
for,
 > > if it cannot afford a new (IPO) train.
 > 
 > Not true for 1835.  There, the president may add cash to buy the
cheapest
 > new train from IPO even if the company can afford a train from the
bank
 > pool.
 > I believe this goes for 1837, too.

 I have checked the English and German rules again.  These aren't very
clear,
 but I must admit that these can well be interpreted the way you do.  

 The 1837 rules are almost identical. There, the relevant rule XI.11
says:
 "If there is a choice of trains available (either from the Bank Pool
or from
 another company) the director may decide which to buy", which leaves
me
 wondering why only the Bank Pool is mentioned, and not the Bank
initial
 offering (other usage of the word Bank Pool in the 1837 rules make it
clear
 that the Pool is distinct from the initial offering). 
 Your version of the 1837 rules has many clarifying comments, but not
one
 that deals with this issue in any way.

 This all still leaves me in doubt.  But if no strong contrary
arguments
 arise, I will take over your position.

 Erik.

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention
 Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes
in-depth
 analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used
to
 evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions.
 http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/
 _______________________________________________
 Rails-devel mailing list
 Rai...@li...
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

Erik:
I cannot add now to any of the rules question as I am currently traveling, but 
it seems that you are considering already a broad variety of rules.

I only ask for a favor with respect to the implementation:
Could you please put (nearly) all code related to the emergency train 
purchases into one (new) class: Most likely a sub-component of TrainManager.
This would also allow it to be easily be replaced by games which have not-yet 
considered rules.
Please avoid adding it to the OperatingRound class as I intend it to refactor 
it anyhow into smaller pieces.

Thanks,
Stefan

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...]

> > 1. If a company has no train, it can buy any train on offer from Bank,
> > Pool or other companies (at any price) that is has enough cash for.
> > It is always obliged to buy a used (Pool) train that it can pay for,
> > if it cannot afford a new (IPO) train.
> 
> Not true for 1835.  There, the president may add cash to buy the cheapest
> new train from IPO even if the company can afford a train from the bank
> pool.
> I believe this goes for 1837, too.

I have checked the English and German rules again.  These aren't very clear,
but I must admit that these can well be interpreted the way you do.  

The 1837 rules are almost identical. There, the relevant rule XI.11 says:
"If there is a choice of trains available (either from the Bank Pool or from
another company) the director may decide which to buy", which leaves me
wondering why only the Bank Pool is mentioned, and not the Bank initial
offering (other usage of the word Bank Pool in the 1837 rules make it clear
that the Pool is distinct from the initial offering). 
Your version of the 1837 rules has many clarifying comments, but not one
that deals with this issue in any way.

This all still leaves me in doubt.  But if no strong contrary arguments
arise, I will take over your position.
 
Erik.

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases -1880 variant

[<Dr....@t-...>]

Hi Erik, 

	If the company has not enough money to buy a train from the bank (any
train besides the refurbished 2s)the director has to make up the
difference from his money. 

	To that point he may: 

	- sell shares but no director change may occure 

	- take out a loan (just possible to finance trains in emergency) 

	He is not allowed to 

	- sell private companies 

	If the director has taken out a loan at the end of the transaction
50% of the loan value gets booked as interest on the loan (director
takes out a loan of 100 € at the end of the transaction hes liable
for 150€) 

	Implication: if the loan aint paid off the director cant buy shares
in subsequent Stockrounds. At the end of a stockround the loan gets
extended by 50% of its current value each stockround its not paid off
full. 

	Rules original text in german follows: 

	Der Direktor muss den Fehlbetrag aus seinem Privatvermögen
ausgleichen.
o
Hat der Direktor dafür nicht genügend Bargeld, darf er Aktien
verkaufen.
o
Durch diese Verkäufe darf bei keiner Gesellschaft ein Direktorwechsel
stattfinden.
o
Privatbahnen dürfen nie verkauft werden.
o
Will oder kann der Direktor keine Aktien mehr verkaufen, kommen auf
die verbliebenen
Schulden sofort 50% Zinsen hinzu (aufgerundet).
o
Bevor der Spieler in dieser oder in folgenden AR Anteile kaufen darf,
muss er seine Schulden
vollständig zurückgezahlt haben.
o
Der Spieler darf jederzeit während einer AR seine Schulden ganz oder
teilweise zurückzahlen.
Dafür kann er Anteile verkaufen, muss es aber nicht.
o
Am Ende jeder AR kommen auf verbliebene Schulden wiederum 50% Zinsen
hinzu.
o
Dadurch gibt es in diesem Spiel keinen Bankrott.
o
Bei einem Zwangs-Lokkauf muss eine Lok aus der Bank erworben werden.
o
Die Gesellschaft darf bei einem Zwangs-Lokkauf keine weiteren Loks
kaufen
o
Eine restaurierte 2er Lok darf nie notfinanziert werden. 

Regards, 

	Martin 

	-----Original-Nachricht-----
 Subject: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
 Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 13:42:10 +0200
 From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>
 To: "Development list for Rails: an 18xx game"
<rai...@li...>

 I'm working to get the emergency train buying rules right. 
Currently, all
 Rails games follow the 1830 rules, and several people have already
 complained about that.

 I had a brief look into 1880, but it's not clear to me what the
verdicts are
 for this game.

 Erik.

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Storage Efficiency Calculator
 This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property
that
 has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization
engage-
 ments, worldwide.  Store less, Store more with what you own, Move
data to 
 the right place. Try It Now!
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/
 _______________________________________________
 Rails-devel mailing list
 Rai...@li...
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases

[John D. G. <jd...@di...>]

On 2011-07-25 14:57, Erik Vos wrote:
> As always, the devil is in the details. An update, with notes added that
> have arisen whilst I was trying to code these rules:
> 
> 1. If a company has no train, it can buy any train on offer from Bank, Pool
> or other companies (at any price) that is has enough cash for. 
> It is always obliged to buy a used (Pool) train that it can pay for, if it
> cannot afford a new (IPO) train. 

Not true for 1835.  There, the president may add cash to buy the cheapest new
train from IPO even if the company can afford a train from the bank pool.
I believe this goes for 1837, too.

> It is never obliged to buy a train from another company.
> Only if no affordable train can be found this way, the President can and
> indeed must add cash, and the below emergency train buying rules apply.
> Note: one corollary is, that an emergency does not necessarily arise if the
> company has at least $1 in its treasury, because for that price it can
> always buy a train from another company, and everything is fine.  Only if no
> other company offers a train for that price, the emergency situation arises.
> For Rails this means, that in this case the game engine cannot know
> beforehand if an  emergency situation will arise. That is only possible if
> the company has zero cash.
> 
> 2. Must buy the *cheapest* train from Bank or Pool:
> 1830/Kaas, 1856/70, 18AL/GA/TN, 1826: Yes.
> 1835, 18EU/VA/Scan: No.
> 
> Note: I'm awaiting Chris' response on games where it is not mandatory to buy
> a Pool train. That would change this aspect.
>
> 3. May buy a train from another company (always up to list price):
> 1830/Kaas, 1835, 18EU/VA/Scan, 1826: Yes.
> 1856/70, 18AL/GA/TN: No.
> 
> Note: the "may buy a train for another company" part is in fact only
> relevant if the company has zero cash.  Otherwise a train can be bought
> normally from other companies at a price up to the company cash amount (see
> note above).  For the games marked "yes" it does mean, effectively, that the
> president may always add cash for prices up to the list price. But only from
> cash at hand, no shares may be sold.
> 
> 4. President may add extra cash above the agreed price (up to list price) if
> buying from another company:
[snip]
> Note: I'm not sure if the " extra cash above the agreed price (up to list
> price)" is actually true.  This would mean that it is allowed to leave some
> cash in the company treasure after an emergency buy.  Is that really true
> for any game?  

To my knowledge, no.  The only way to wind up with cash in the treasury after
an emergency train purchase is in games where the company can take out loans,
or issue bonds, or sell shares, such as 1826, 1841, 1856.  (In 1856 the
"emergency" and even bankruptcy can be optional on the president's part,
since he is never required to take a loan.)

Of course, there are cases where a company is allowed to "borrow" a train
rather than purchase it (1829 companies in receivership, 1856 CGR if it has
never had a permanent train, 1853 companies floated with too little money to
buy a train) but this is always merely a mechanism to delay the purchase (at
the cost of forcing the company to withhold) and not an actual purchase, so
no money changes hands.

> I'm leaning to the conclusion, that it is not, and then this point is
> irrelevant, as it then will coincide with point 3 (so we don't need a
> special configuration option for this item).

I agree.

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

According to this post, Helmut Ohley says that in 1844 a company with
sufficient funds to purchase a cheap train from the bank pool may instead
choose to enter emergency money raising to buy a more expensive train from
the initial offering.

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/18xx/message/22599



--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:

> As always, the devil is in the details. An update, with notes added that
> have arisen whilst I was trying to code these rules:
>
> 1. If a company has no train, it can buy any train on offer from Bank, Pool
> or other companies (at any price) that is has enough cash for.
> It is always obliged to buy a used (Pool) train that it can pay for, if it
> cannot afford a new (IPO) train.
> It is never obliged to buy a train from another company.
> Only if no affordable train can be found this way, the President can and
> indeed must add cash, and the below emergency train buying rules apply.
>
> Note: one corollary is, that an emergency does not necessarily arise if the
> company has at least $1 in its treasury, because for that price it can
> always buy a train from another company, and everything is fine.  Only if
> no
> other company offers a train for that price, the emergency situation
> arises.
> For Rails this means, that in this case the game engine cannot know
> beforehand if an  emergency situation will arise. That is only possible if
> the company has zero cash.
>
> 2. Must buy the *cheapest* train from Bank or Pool:
> 1830/Kaas, 1856/70, 18AL/GA/TN, 1826: Yes.
> 1835, 18EU/VA/Scan: No.
>
> Note: I'm awaiting Chris' response on games where it is not mandatory to
> buy
> a Pool train. That would change this aspect.
>
> 3. May buy a train from another company (always up to list price):
> 1830/Kaas, 1835, 18EU/VA/Scan, 1826: Yes.
> 1856/70, 18AL/GA/TN: No.
>
> Note: the "may buy a train for another company" part is in fact only
> relevant if the company has zero cash.  Otherwise a train can be bought
> normally from other companies at a price up to the company cash amount (see
> note above).  For the games marked "yes" it does mean, effectively, that
> the
> president may always add cash for prices up to the list price. But only
> from
> cash at hand, no shares may be sold.
>
> 4. President may add extra cash above the agreed price (up to list price)
> if
> buying from another company:
> 1830/Kaas: Yes.  It seems that this even applies if the company has
> sufficient cash for the agreed price.
> 18EU: Yes, but only if the company had exactly zero cash.
> All others: No or N/A.
>
> Note: I'm not sure if the " extra cash above the agreed price (up to list
> price)" is actually true.  This would mean that it is allowed to leave some
> cash in the company treasure after an emergency buy.  Is that really true
> for any game?
> I'm leaning to the conclusion, that it is not, and then this point is
> irrelevant, as it then will coincide with point 3 (so we don't need a
> special configuration option for this item).
>
> (Maybe this is stuff for rules gurus, and should be directed at the 18xx
> group.  But I prefer to remove any blunders here first...)
>
> Erik.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Erik Vos [mailto:eri...@xs...]
> > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 3:37 PM
> > To: 'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'
> > Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
> >
> > I think I must make the following amendment (at least 18EU spells this
> out):
> >
> > 4. President may add extra cash above the agreed price (up to list price)
> if
> > buying from another company:
> > ===> ... but not more than the cash on hand. In this case no share
> selling
> > allowed. <===
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Erik Vos [mailto:eri...@xs...]
> > > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 1:42 PM
> > > To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > > Subject: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
> > >
> > > I'm working to get the emergency train buying rules right.  Currently,
> > > all
> > Rails
> > > games follow the 1830 rules, and several people have already
> > > complained about that.
> > >
> > > In this stage I do not aim at getting all the details in all games
> > completely
> > > implemented.
> > > However, I think I have identified the main options and sorted out how
> > these
> > > apply to most of the games that we have been working on so far.
> > >
> > > The below only applies to companies that must own a train.  That
> > > excludes 1825.
> > >
> > > 1. If a company has no train, it can buy any train on offer from Bank,
> > Pool or
> > > other companies (at any price) that is has enough cash for.
> > > It is always obliged to buy a used (Pool) train that it can pay for,
> > > if it
> > cannot
> > > afford a new (IPO) train.
> > > It is never obliged to buy a train from another company.
> > > Only if no affordable train can be found this way, the President can
> > > and indeed must add cash, and the below rules apply.
> > >
> > > 2. Must buy the *cheapest* train from Bank or Pool:
> > > 1830/Kaas, 1856/70, 18AL/GA/TN, 1826: Yes.
> > > 1835, 18EU/VA/Scan: No.
> > >
> > > 3. May buy a train from another company (always up to list price):
> > > 1830/Kaas, 1835, 18EU/VA/Scan, 1826: Yes.
> > > 1856/70, 18AL/GA/TN: No.
> > >
> > > 4. President may add extra cash above the agreed price (up to list
> > > price)
> > if
> > > buying from another company:
> > > 1830/Kaas: Yes.  It seems that this even applies if the company has
> > sufficient
> > > cash for the agreed price.
> > > 18EU: Yes, but only if the company had exactly zero cash.
> > > All others: No or N/A.
> > >
> > > Any corrections to the above summary?
> > >
> > > Any more fine details for these games, and extensions to other games,
> > > are welcome, but will probably be end up in the for-later-study
> archive.
> > > I had a brief look into 1880, but it's not clear to me what the
> > > verdicts
> > are for
> > > this game.
> > >
> > > Erik.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > Storage Efficiency Calculator
> > > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property
> > > that
> > has
> > > been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage-
> > > ments, worldwide.  Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data
> > > to the right place. Try It Now!
> > > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rails-devel mailing list
> > > Rai...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
> >
> >
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > Storage Efficiency Calculator
> > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that
> has
> > been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage-
> > ments, worldwide.  Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to
> > the right place. Try It Now!
> > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails-devel mailing list
> > Rai...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Storage Efficiency Calculator
> This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that
> has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage-
> ments, worldwide.  Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to
> the right place. Try It Now!
> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

As always, the devil is in the details. An update, with notes added that
have arisen whilst I was trying to code these rules:

1. If a company has no train, it can buy any train on offer from Bank, Pool
or other companies (at any price) that is has enough cash for. 
It is always obliged to buy a used (Pool) train that it can pay for, if it
cannot afford a new (IPO) train. 
It is never obliged to buy a train from another company.
Only if no affordable train can be found this way, the President can and
indeed must add cash, and the below emergency train buying rules apply.

Note: one corollary is, that an emergency does not necessarily arise if the
company has at least $1 in its treasury, because for that price it can
always buy a train from another company, and everything is fine.  Only if no
other company offers a train for that price, the emergency situation arises.
For Rails this means, that in this case the game engine cannot know
beforehand if an  emergency situation will arise. That is only possible if
the company has zero cash.

2. Must buy the *cheapest* train from Bank or Pool:
1830/Kaas, 1856/70, 18AL/GA/TN, 1826: Yes.
1835, 18EU/VA/Scan: No.

Note: I'm awaiting Chris' response on games where it is not mandatory to buy
a Pool train. That would change this aspect.

3. May buy a train from another company (always up to list price):
1830/Kaas, 1835, 18EU/VA/Scan, 1826: Yes.
1856/70, 18AL/GA/TN: No.

Note: the "may buy a train for another company" part is in fact only
relevant if the company has zero cash.  Otherwise a train can be bought
normally from other companies at a price up to the company cash amount (see
note above).  For the games marked "yes" it does mean, effectively, that the
president may always add cash for prices up to the list price. But only from
cash at hand, no shares may be sold.

4. President may add extra cash above the agreed price (up to list price) if
buying from another company:
1830/Kaas: Yes.  It seems that this even applies if the company has
sufficient cash for the agreed price.
18EU: Yes, but only if the company had exactly zero cash.
All others: No or N/A.

Note: I'm not sure if the " extra cash above the agreed price (up to list
price)" is actually true.  This would mean that it is allowed to leave some
cash in the company treasure after an emergency buy.  Is that really true
for any game?  
I'm leaning to the conclusion, that it is not, and then this point is
irrelevant, as it then will coincide with point 3 (so we don't need a
special configuration option for this item).

(Maybe this is stuff for rules gurus, and should be directed at the 18xx
group.  But I prefer to remove any blunders here first...)
 
Erik.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erik Vos [mailto:eri...@xs...]
> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 3:37 PM
> To: 'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'
> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
> 
> I think I must make the following amendment (at least 18EU spells this
out):
> 
> 4. President may add extra cash above the agreed price (up to list price)
if
> buying from another company:
> ===> ... but not more than the cash on hand. In this case no share selling
> allowed. <===
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Erik Vos [mailto:eri...@xs...]
> > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 1:42 PM
> > To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> > Subject: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases
> >
> > I'm working to get the emergency train buying rules right.  Currently,
> > all
> Rails
> > games follow the 1830 rules, and several people have already
> > complained about that.
> >
> > In this stage I do not aim at getting all the details in all games
> completely
> > implemented.
> > However, I think I have identified the main options and sorted out how
> these
> > apply to most of the games that we have been working on so far.
> >
> > The below only applies to companies that must own a train.  That
> > excludes 1825.
> >
> > 1. If a company has no train, it can buy any train on offer from Bank,
> Pool or
> > other companies (at any price) that is has enough cash for.
> > It is always obliged to buy a used (Pool) train that it can pay for,
> > if it
> cannot
> > afford a new (IPO) train.
> > It is never obliged to buy a train from another company.
> > Only if no affordable train can be found this way, the President can
> > and indeed must add cash, and the below rules apply.
> >
> > 2. Must buy the *cheapest* train from Bank or Pool:
> > 1830/Kaas, 1856/70, 18AL/GA/TN, 1826: Yes.
> > 1835, 18EU/VA/Scan: No.
> >
> > 3. May buy a train from another company (always up to list price):
> > 1830/Kaas, 1835, 18EU/VA/Scan, 1826: Yes.
> > 1856/70, 18AL/GA/TN: No.
> >
> > 4. President may add extra cash above the agreed price (up to list
> > price)
> if
> > buying from another company:
> > 1830/Kaas: Yes.  It seems that this even applies if the company has
> sufficient
> > cash for the agreed price.
> > 18EU: Yes, but only if the company had exactly zero cash.
> > All others: No or N/A.
> >
> > Any corrections to the above summary?
> >
> > Any more fine details for these games, and extensions to other games,
> > are welcome, but will probably be end up in the for-later-study archive.
> > I had a brief look into 1880, but it's not clear to me what the
> > verdicts
> are for
> > this game.
> >
> > Erik.
> >
> >
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > Storage Efficiency Calculator
> > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property
> > that
> has
> > been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage-
> > ments, worldwide.  Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data
> > to the right place. Try It Now!
> > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails-devel mailing list
> > Rai...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> 
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Storage Efficiency Calculator
> This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that
has
> been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage-
> ments, worldwide.  Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to
> the right place. Try It Now!
> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Yes, I know, for instance 1826.  But that's not what I'm after now.

 

Erik.

 

From: Chris Shaffer [mailto:chr...@gm...] 
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 5:27 PM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases

 

There are probably other variables to consider in games that allow loans of
various types.

 

--
Chris




 

Re: [Rails-devel] Hex trains support

[John A. T. <ja...@ja...>]

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 12:08 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:

> I don’t have the other games that you mention.
>
> But if 1812, 1834 and 18EA (mentioned by Chris) are actually different, we
> must of course support both variations.
>

1834 is essentially the same as 1846, so I would assume it doesn't.

1812 has this in the rules:

 When bought from the Bank the buyer decides which way up the Train should
> go, and this decision cannot be changed, even if the Train is later returned
> to the Bank Pool.


-- 
John A. Tamplin

Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

There are probably other variables to consider in games that allow loans of
various types.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 4:53 AM, Phil Davies <de...@gm...> wrote:

> We played 1880 yesterday and our belief was the following:
>
> If the company has at least $1 and no train then it can buy a train
> from a company owned by the same director.
> If the company has $0, or the director does not wish to buy a train
> from a 'friend' then it must buy the cheapest train from the bank
> (there is no pool in 1880), presidents must put in money from hand and
> the MAY sell shares if they wish (although these cannot cause a change
> of directorship).  If they do not or cannot sell shares, they accrue
> debt and add 50% interest on top.
>
> Phil
>
> On 25 July 2011 12:42, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:
> > I'm working to get the emergency train buying rules right.  Currently,
> all
> > Rails games follow the 1830 rules, and several people have already
> > complained about that.
> >
> > In this stage I do not aim at getting all the details in all games
> > completely implemented.
> > However, I think I have identified the main options and sorted out how
> these
> > apply to most of the games that we have been working on so far.
> >
> > The below only applies to companies that must own a train.  That excludes
> > 1825.
> >
> > 1. If a company has no train, it can buy any train on offer from Bank,
> Pool
> > or other companies (at any price) that is has enough cash for.
> > It is always obliged to buy a used (Pool) train that it can pay for, if
> it
> > cannot afford a new (IPO) train.
> > It is never obliged to buy a train from another company.
> > Only if no affordable train can be found this way, the President can and
> > indeed must add cash, and the below rules apply.
> >
> > 2. Must buy the *cheapest* train from Bank or Pool:
> > 1830/Kaas, 1856/70, 18AL/GA/TN, 1826: Yes.
> > 1835, 18EU/VA/Scan: No.
> >
> > 3. May buy a train from another company (always up to list price):
> > 1830/Kaas, 1835, 18EU/VA/Scan, 1826: Yes.
> > 1856/70, 18AL/GA/TN: No.
> >
> > 4. President may add extra cash above the agreed price (up to list price)
> if
> > buying from another company:
> > 1830/Kaas: Yes.  It seems that this even applies if the company has
> > sufficient cash for the agreed price.
> > 18EU: Yes, but only if the company had exactly zero cash.
> > All others: No or N/A.
> >
> > Any corrections to the above summary?
> >
> > Any more fine details for these games, and extensions to other games, are
> > welcome, but will probably be end up in the for-later-study archive.
> > I had a brief look into 1880, but it's not clear to me what the verdicts
> are
> > for this game.
> >
> > Erik.
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Storage Efficiency Calculator
> > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that
> > has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization
> engage-
> > ments, worldwide.  Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to
> > the right place. Try It Now!
> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails-devel mailing list
> > Rai...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Storage Efficiency Calculator
> This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that
> has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage-
> ments, worldwide.  Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to
> the right place. Try It Now!
> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>