rails-devel — List for discussion of Rails development

Re: [Rails-devel] SVG background maps (was: Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop)

[Frederick W. <fre...@go...>]

Stefan:
All these are valid points. I guess that this is all about the decision
into which direction rails should go with respect to the map:

(1) Leave it as it is (loosely coupled, working with arbitrary svgs). An
option here is to add a tool for exporting arbitrary map/companyMgr xmls as
svg prototypes.

(2) Establish a closer link between the map svg and the game. This means
that the map has to fulfill specific requirements like having a specific
coordinate system or omitting information which is drawn by the game
instead or even further requirements that lead to even tighter integration.

As I said, option (1) would be ok for me. The tool would assist the
designer to some degree.

Regarding option (2), I wouldn't like it that much. As an example, the
designer would also want to define the positioning/style of the offboard
values. Removing the aforementioned redundancy would only be possible if
the game/design integration was much tighter, eg., using text/value place
holders in the svg design. But then the map designer does not control every
aspect of the representation any more (he might want to adjust the style
depending on the text/value's length etc.).

Currently, the only aspect which is according to (2) are the row/column
coordinates which I omitted from my svgs as a result. This is ok for me as
I seldom need them, but anything beyond would really be detrimental from my
point of view.

As for the token svgs: I thought about that (incl. code to display them
instead of imperative token drawing) some years ago but I didn't move
forward with that. The reasoning behind this was as follows: Other parts of
the game (especially Game status window) have a textual-only representation
of the companies. Depending on the token art, it could be difficult to
match it to the company name. So either each and every part of the UI gets
these svg tokens or the tokens remain text based. Personally, I'm quite
happy with the current solution.

-- Frederick


On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 11:50 AM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:

> Frederick:
> my goal is both to shorten time for the designer and make e.g. scaling
> problems less an issue.
>
> Would you not think that the hex grid will already help other designers
> to know how large the map size will be. So it is less an issue to scale
> and translate which currently is far from perfect.
>
> Map.xml is not reliable, as it is hardly used so far. However it is not
> that diffcult to get that up-to-date. However most likely it will not
> add that automatically, as due to text scaling and positioning it is
> better for a human to decide where and how to put it.
>
> But offboard values should better be derived from xml, as it avoids
> double definition, which is really confusing for players (the same is
> not true for city names which usually have no real impact in 18xx).
>
> And know I will not manipulate Tokens by code and I would only like to
> place tokens on tiles by code. This requires tiles to adhere a specific
> structure (to locate the token slots), not potential tokens svg files.
> Would you be interested to design tokens for Rails in svg? It is easy to
> add code to support user-supplied tokens, if anyone is interested to
> create some.
>
> Stefan
>
>
> On 12/09/2014 11:31 AM, Frederick Weld wrote:
> > Stefan:
> > If your goal is to shorten the time a designer needs for a new svg,
> > these ideas would certainly contribute to that. Although, for me,
> > recreating the hex grid amounted to only about 10% of the time, the
> > remainder being creating coastlines/rivers and design/placing of shapes.
> >
> > Map.xml's city/town names are also not reliable - at least town names
> > are never included.
> >
> > So, as a result, I wouldn't create more svgs if such svg pregeneration
> > functionality existed. But on the other hand, it would save me some
> > amount of time if I created one.
> >
> > For doing more with the svg (incorporating artful tokens etc.), I have
> > my doubts about that. It would be too easy for a WYSIWYG editor to mess
> > this up. Such svgs would have to be edited in an xml editor after the
> > designer had completed his initial work...
> >
> > -- Frederick
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...
> > <mailto:ste...@we...>> wrote:
> >
> >     Frederick,
> >     no I am realistic that a designer of a map cares more about the SVG
> >     structure than you already did. I only wondered how far you went,
> most
> >     likely you define the upper limit of carefulness. ;-)
> >
> >     My goal is to separate those parts of the background map, which are
> >     better generated/manipulated by
> >     the code and which by the human designer.
> >
> >     My current thoughts are:
> >
> >     * A hex grid SVG definition should be generated by a program. There
> are
> >     SVG online generators (e.g.
> >     http://axiscity.hexamon.net/users/isomage/misc/svg-hex.cgi),
> however I
> >     assume coding an own one, is not too difficult. This would allow to
> >     generate a hexgrid as a SVG based on Rails map definitions.
> >
> >     * The hex grid could then be imported by a designer to add the
> >     background map. If Inkscape is used it is easy to separate the two
> parts
> >     (grid and map) by layers.
> >
> >     * It is possible to add another SVG layer that shows the Rails
> >     predefined tiles on the hexgrid. This would make the designing task
> >     easier, at it would show, what content is expected in each hex.
> >     By using layers, it can be easily separated later on.
> >
> >     I still have to think more about tiles. I would like to change tiles
> >     that it is possible to change them by code. This would imply that the
> >     base structure has to be defined manually to make code manipulation
> >     easier. The reason for that would be e.g. to add tokens, add offboard
> >     values, city names, all stuff that is already contained in the xml
> >     definitions.
> >
> >     What do you (and others think) about that?
> >
> >     Stefan
> >
> >
> >     Frederick Weld <fre...@go...
> >     <mailto:fre...@go...>>schrieb:
> >
> >          Stefan:
> >          Actually, I use Inkscape as a WYSIWYG tool and do not bother
> about
> >          redundancies in the residual svg as long as the file size is
> less
> >          than 100k. I keep the layers and grouping in the pushed svg
> >     versions
> >          so that anyone could easily alter aspects of the svg.
> >
> >          A lot of your questions are pointing into the direction that the
> >          designer needs to care more about the svg model. That could come
> >          with a lot of advantages but keep in mind that any compulsion
> to do
> >          this could potentially turn away WYSIWYG designers. Here are
> some
> >          answers:
> >
> >          - The ids are auto-assigned but could be changed within the
> tool.
> >
> >          - I don't think that Inkscape can be forced to retain the
> syntax of
> >          tiles copied from outside.
> >
> >          - I am not aware of any in-tool support for css, but I could
> >     imagine
> >          that other tools (or even Inkscape with direct svg editing)
> provide
> >          for that.
> >
> >          - I use separate hexes instead of a hex grid since I often need
> the
> >          hex definition to add a filling (eg., prelaid tiles at the
> coast).
> >          But I imagine that other designs could differ regarding this
> >     aspect.
> >
> >          -- Frederick
> >
> >          On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Stefan Frey<ste...@we...
> >     <mailto:ste...@we...>
> >          <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>> wrote:
> >
> >              Frederick:
> >              thanks a lot. Your feedback is really helpful.
> >
> >              And I appreciate your functional but good-looking design.
> >
> >              I am currently looking into how interact with the svg maps
> from
> >              inside
> >              the code.
> >
> >              Maybe some questions up-front:
> >
> >              * How did you (or Inkscape) assing ids to your elements? Is
> >              there any
> >              system to it, that relates to the actual 18xx definitions?
> >
> >              * Is it possible to force Inkscape to use pre-defined
> >     styles for
> >              attributes (inline or external CSS) to reduce the
> replication
> >              inside the
> >              svg?
> >
> >              * Inkscape seems to change the syntax of tile definitions
> >     at the
> >              time
> >              copying (e.g. uses relative coordinates instead of absolute
> >              coordinates
> >              for the path definitions).
> >
> >              * It seems that it is possible to save it as plain svg
> without
> >              quality
> >              loss (however it prevents Inkscape to identify the layer
> >              information).
> >
> >              * Do you have a good idea to avoid the duplication of
> drawing
> >              the hex
> >              borders? I think it would be a good idea to separate
> >     drawing the hex
> >              grid from the hex content to avoid that.
> >
> >              I do not want to change the map code too much in 2.0,
> >     except for
> >              replacing batik. However I want to improve that in the next
> >     upcoming
> >              releases. So I am still very open for ideas.
> >
> >              Stefan
> >
> >
> >              On 12/05/2014 03:12 PM, Frederick Weld wrote:
> >               > Stefan:
> >               > The hexes have the same size as the tile svgs. This
> makes it
> >              possible to
> >               > just copy required tiles (Altoona...) from the tile svg
> into
> >              the map.
> >               >
> >               > These tile svgs are the one very important element of
> reuse.
> >               >
> >               > I reuse further parts from my former maps - but this is
> >              rather pure
> >               > design (shape/color patterns for rendering...).
> >               >
> >               > I do not use any specific coordinate system and, as a
> >     result,
> >              I have to
> >               > calibrate the maps within the game to get the x/y/scale
> >              parameters. This
> >               > is no drawback though, as I often want to be able to
> >     make the
> >              decision
> >               > how much "padding" the grid needs within my map's
> layout...
> >               >
> >               > -- Frederick
> >               >
> >               > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Stefan Frey
> >              <ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>
> >     <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>
> >               > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>
> >     <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>>> wrote:
> >               >
> >               >     Frederick:
> >               >     thanks for your feedback.
> >               >     I assumed this by the size of the files, however I
> >     had no
> >              time yet
> >               >     to look into details.
> >               >
> >               >     One further question: What coordinates did you
> >     choose for
> >              your maps?
> >               >     Is it identical across your maps? What is the size
> >     of one
> >              hexagon in
> >               >     those coordinates. Have you already started to create
> >              single tiles
> >               >     for reuse? I am keen on replacing the existing tile
> >              creation process
> >               >     by a simpler one.
> >               >
> >               >     Most likely you can guess where I am hinting at, but
> I
> >              will give
> >               >     more details on Sunday.
> >               >
> >               >     Great work,
> >               >     Stefan
> >               >
> >               >
> >               >
> >               >
> >               >
> >               >     Frederick Weld <fre...@go...
> >     <mailto:fre...@go...>
> >              <mailto:fre...@go...
> >     <mailto:fre...@go...>>
> >               >     <mailto:fre...@go...
> >     <mailto:fre...@go...>
> >              <mailto:fre...@go...
> >     <mailto:fre...@go...>>>>schrieb:
> >               >
> >               >         Stefan:
> >               >         I use Inkscape for creating/editing the vector
> maps.
> >              They are
> >               >         stored in svg format. I couldn't imagine any
> other
> >              combination
> >               >         which would fit our needs here in a better
> manner.
> >               >
> >               >         SVG files are verbose but their size gets shrunk
> by
> >              compression
> >               >         to 10-15% of the original size. My maps are
> >     <100k when
> >               >         compressed. Hence, I do not think this is a real
> >     issue.
> >               >
> >               >         However, the situation is different for converted
> >              maps (in
> >               >         rails, e.g, 18EU, 18AL). They include a lot of
> >              superfluous paths
> >               >         (including paths instead of text) and get
> >     bloated and
> >              slow to
> >               >         draw as a result. That (and copyright
> >     considerations)
> >              is why I
> >               >         always build my maps from the scratch.
> >               >
> >               >         The svg lib could be exchanged, of course. But
> as a
> >               >         prerequisite, the new lib should be
> regression-free
> >              with respect
> >               >         to exiting background maps.
> >               >
> >               >         -- Frederick
> >               >
> >               >         On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Stefan
> >              Frey<ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>
> >     <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>
> >               >         <mailto:ste...@we...
> >     <mailto:ste...@we...>
> >              <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>>>
> >     wrote:
> >               >
> >               >             Frederick:
> >               >             we could do that later on. Most people now
> >     know that
> >               >             rails_2_develop is
> >               >             the (default) branch for rails 2.
> >               >
> >               >             My (future) release strategy is based on
> >               >
> >               > http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/
> >               >
> >               >             However I still consider moving the git repo
> >              (only the repo,
> >               >             not the
> >               >             other parts) to github, then this will happen
> >              with the
> >               >             official rails
> >               >             2.0 release.
> >               >
> >               >             I am looking forward to seeing more maps
> >     from you.
> >               >
> >               >             One question: In which format and tools do
> you
> >              create your
> >               >             maps?
> >               >
> >               >             Most likely you will know that I intend to
> >              replace the Batik
> >               >             lib soon.
> >               >             However which long-run strategy to choose
> >     how display
> >               >             maps/tiles for Rails.
> >               >
> >               >             In the short-run I will simply replace Batik
> >     by a
> >              more
> >               >             light-weight SVG
> >               >             library, but I am open to recommendations.
> >               >
> >               >             Stefan
> >               >
> >               >
> >               >             On 12/04/2014 10:16 AM, Frederick Weld wrote:
> >               >              > Stefan:
> >               >              > There is no standard 1830 map yet. I will
> >              probably do
> >               >             that after the
> >               >              > Coalfield map has been reviewed (bgg) and
> >              thoroughly
> >               >             play-tested.
> >               >              >
> >               >              > How about labeling rails_2_develop as
> master?
> >              Then the
> >               >             meaning would be
> >               >              > clear: Current state of validated
> development
> >              which is
> >               >             eligible for the
> >               >              > next release.
> >               >              >
> >               >              > -- Frederick
> >               >              >
> >               >              >
> >               >              >
> >               >              >
> >               >              >
> >               >
> >
> >
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Re: [Rails-devel] SVG background maps (was: Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop)

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

Frederick:
my goal is both to shorten time for the designer and make e.g. scaling 
problems less an issue.

Would you not think that the hex grid will already help other designers 
to know how large the map size will be. So it is less an issue to scale 
and translate which currently is far from perfect.

Map.xml is not reliable, as it is hardly used so far. However it is not 
that diffcult to get that up-to-date. However most likely it will not 
add that automatically, as due to text scaling and positioning it is 
better for a human to decide where and how to put it.

But offboard values should better be derived from xml, as it avoids 
double definition, which is really confusing for players (the same is 
not true for city names which usually have no real impact in 18xx).

And know I will not manipulate Tokens by code and I would only like to 
place tokens on tiles by code. This requires tiles to adhere a specific 
structure (to locate the token slots), not potential tokens svg files.
Would you be interested to design tokens for Rails in svg? It is easy to 
add code to support user-supplied tokens, if anyone is interested to 
create some.

Stefan


On 12/09/2014 11:31 AM, Frederick Weld wrote:
> Stefan:
> If your goal is to shorten the time a designer needs for a new svg,
> these ideas would certainly contribute to that. Although, for me,
> recreating the hex grid amounted to only about 10% of the time, the
> remainder being creating coastlines/rivers and design/placing of shapes.
>
> Map.xml's city/town names are also not reliable - at least town names
> are never included.
>
> So, as a result, I wouldn't create more svgs if such svg pregeneration
> functionality existed. But on the other hand, it would save me some
> amount of time if I created one.
>
> For doing more with the svg (incorporating artful tokens etc.), I have
> my doubts about that. It would be too easy for a WYSIWYG editor to mess
> this up. Such svgs would have to be edited in an xml editor after the
> designer had completed his initial work...
>
> -- Frederick
>
> On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...
> <mailto:ste...@we...>> wrote:
>
>     Frederick,
>     no I am realistic that a designer of a map cares more about the SVG
>     structure than you already did. I only wondered how far you went, most
>     likely you define the upper limit of carefulness. ;-)
>
>     My goal is to separate those parts of the background map, which are
>     better generated/manipulated by
>     the code and which by the human designer.
>
>     My current thoughts are:
>
>     * A hex grid SVG definition should be generated by a program. There are
>     SVG online generators (e.g.
>     http://axiscity.hexamon.net/users/isomage/misc/svg-hex.cgi), however I
>     assume coding an own one, is not too difficult. This would allow to
>     generate a hexgrid as a SVG based on Rails map definitions.
>
>     * The hex grid could then be imported by a designer to add the
>     background map. If Inkscape is used it is easy to separate the two parts
>     (grid and map) by layers.
>
>     * It is possible to add another SVG layer that shows the Rails
>     predefined tiles on the hexgrid. This would make the designing task
>     easier, at it would show, what content is expected in each hex.
>     By using layers, it can be easily separated later on.
>
>     I still have to think more about tiles. I would like to change tiles
>     that it is possible to change them by code. This would imply that the
>     base structure has to be defined manually to make code manipulation
>     easier. The reason for that would be e.g. to add tokens, add offboard
>     values, city names, all stuff that is already contained in the xml
>     definitions.
>
>     What do you (and others think) about that?
>
>     Stefan
>
>
>     Frederick Weld <fre...@go...
>     <mailto:fre...@go...>>schrieb:
>
>          Stefan:
>          Actually, I use Inkscape as a WYSIWYG tool and do not bother about
>          redundancies in the residual svg as long as the file size is less
>          than 100k. I keep the layers and grouping in the pushed svg
>     versions
>          so that anyone could easily alter aspects of the svg.
>
>          A lot of your questions are pointing into the direction that the
>          designer needs to care more about the svg model. That could come
>          with a lot of advantages but keep in mind that any compulsion to do
>          this could potentially turn away WYSIWYG designers. Here are some
>          answers:
>
>          - The ids are auto-assigned but could be changed within the tool.
>
>          - I don't think that Inkscape can be forced to retain the syntax of
>          tiles copied from outside.
>
>          - I am not aware of any in-tool support for css, but I could
>     imagine
>          that other tools (or even Inkscape with direct svg editing) provide
>          for that.
>
>          - I use separate hexes instead of a hex grid since I often need the
>          hex definition to add a filling (eg., prelaid tiles at the coast).
>          But I imagine that other designs could differ regarding this
>     aspect.
>
>          -- Frederick
>
>          On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Stefan Frey<ste...@we...
>     <mailto:ste...@we...>
>          <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>> wrote:
>
>              Frederick:
>              thanks a lot. Your feedback is really helpful.
>
>              And I appreciate your functional but good-looking design.
>
>              I am currently looking into how interact with the svg maps from
>              inside
>              the code.
>
>              Maybe some questions up-front:
>
>              * How did you (or Inkscape) assing ids to your elements? Is
>              there any
>              system to it, that relates to the actual 18xx definitions?
>
>              * Is it possible to force Inkscape to use pre-defined
>     styles for
>              attributes (inline or external CSS) to reduce the replication
>              inside the
>              svg?
>
>              * Inkscape seems to change the syntax of tile definitions
>     at the
>              time
>              copying (e.g. uses relative coordinates instead of absolute
>              coordinates
>              for the path definitions).
>
>              * It seems that it is possible to save it as plain svg without
>              quality
>              loss (however it prevents Inkscape to identify the layer
>              information).
>
>              * Do you have a good idea to avoid the duplication of drawing
>              the hex
>              borders? I think it would be a good idea to separate
>     drawing the hex
>              grid from the hex content to avoid that.
>
>              I do not want to change the map code too much in 2.0,
>     except for
>              replacing batik. However I want to improve that in the next
>     upcoming
>              releases. So I am still very open for ideas.
>
>              Stefan
>
>
>              On 12/05/2014 03:12 PM, Frederick Weld wrote:
>               > Stefan:
>               > The hexes have the same size as the tile svgs. This makes it
>              possible to
>               > just copy required tiles (Altoona...) from the tile svg into
>              the map.
>               >
>               > These tile svgs are the one very important element of reuse.
>               >
>               > I reuse further parts from my former maps - but this is
>              rather pure
>               > design (shape/color patterns for rendering...).
>               >
>               > I do not use any specific coordinate system and, as a
>     result,
>              I have to
>               > calibrate the maps within the game to get the x/y/scale
>              parameters. This
>               > is no drawback though, as I often want to be able to
>     make the
>              decision
>               > how much "padding" the grid needs within my map's layout...
>               >
>               > -- Frederick
>               >
>               > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Stefan Frey
>              <ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>
>     <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>
>               > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>
>     <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>>> wrote:
>               >
>               >     Frederick:
>               >     thanks for your feedback.
>               >     I assumed this by the size of the files, however I
>     had no
>              time yet
>               >     to look into details.
>               >
>               >     One further question: What coordinates did you
>     choose for
>              your maps?
>               >     Is it identical across your maps? What is the size
>     of one
>              hexagon in
>               >     those coordinates. Have you already started to create
>              single tiles
>               >     for reuse? I am keen on replacing the existing tile
>              creation process
>               >     by a simpler one.
>               >
>               >     Most likely you can guess where I am hinting at, but I
>              will give
>               >     more details on Sunday.
>               >
>               >     Great work,
>               >     Stefan
>               >
>               >
>               >
>               >
>               >
>               >     Frederick Weld <fre...@go...
>     <mailto:fre...@go...>
>              <mailto:fre...@go...
>     <mailto:fre...@go...>>
>               >     <mailto:fre...@go...
>     <mailto:fre...@go...>
>              <mailto:fre...@go...
>     <mailto:fre...@go...>>>>schrieb:
>               >
>               >         Stefan:
>               >         I use Inkscape for creating/editing the vector maps.
>              They are
>               >         stored in svg format. I couldn't imagine any other
>              combination
>               >         which would fit our needs here in a better manner.
>               >
>               >         SVG files are verbose but their size gets shrunk by
>              compression
>               >         to 10-15% of the original size. My maps are
>     <100k when
>               >         compressed. Hence, I do not think this is a real
>     issue.
>               >
>               >         However, the situation is different for converted
>              maps (in
>               >         rails, e.g, 18EU, 18AL). They include a lot of
>              superfluous paths
>               >         (including paths instead of text) and get
>     bloated and
>              slow to
>               >         draw as a result. That (and copyright
>     considerations)
>              is why I
>               >         always build my maps from the scratch.
>               >
>               >         The svg lib could be exchanged, of course. But as a
>               >         prerequisite, the new lib should be regression-free
>              with respect
>               >         to exiting background maps.
>               >
>               >         -- Frederick
>               >
>               >         On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Stefan
>              Frey<ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>
>     <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>
>               >         <mailto:ste...@we...
>     <mailto:ste...@we...>
>              <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>>>
>     wrote:
>               >
>               >             Frederick:
>               >             we could do that later on. Most people now
>     know that
>               >             rails_2_develop is
>               >             the (default) branch for rails 2.
>               >
>               >             My (future) release strategy is based on
>               >
>               > http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/
>               >
>               >             However I still consider moving the git repo
>              (only the repo,
>               >             not the
>               >             other parts) to github, then this will happen
>              with the
>               >             official rails
>               >             2.0 release.
>               >
>               >             I am looking forward to seeing more maps
>     from you.
>               >
>               >             One question: In which format and tools do you
>              create your
>               >             maps?
>               >
>               >             Most likely you will know that I intend to
>              replace the Batik
>               >             lib soon.
>               >             However which long-run strategy to choose
>     how display
>               >             maps/tiles for Rails.
>               >
>               >             In the short-run I will simply replace Batik
>     by a
>              more
>               >             light-weight SVG
>               >             library, but I am open to recommendations.
>               >
>               >             Stefan
>               >
>               >
>               >             On 12/04/2014 10:16 AM, Frederick Weld wrote:
>               >              > Stefan:
>               >              > There is no standard 1830 map yet. I will
>              probably do
>               >             that after the
>               >              > Coalfield map has been reviewed (bgg) and
>              thoroughly
>               >             play-tested.
>               >              >
>               >              > How about labeling rails_2_develop as master?
>              Then the
>               >             meaning would be
>               >              > clear: Current state of validated development
>              which is
>               >             eligible for the
>               >              > next release.
>               >              >
>               >              > -- Frederick
>               >              >
>               >              >
>               >              >
>               >              >
>               >              >
>               >
>
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Re: [Rails-devel] SVG background maps (was: Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop)

[Frederick W. <fre...@go...>]

Stefan:
If your goal is to shorten the time a designer needs for a new svg, these
ideas would certainly contribute to that. Although, for me, recreating the
hex grid amounted to only about 10% of the time, the remainder being
creating coastlines/rivers and design/placing of shapes.

Map.xml's city/town names are also not reliable - at least town names are
never included.

So, as a result, I wouldn't create more svgs if such svg pregeneration
functionality existed. But on the other hand, it would save me some amount
of time if I created one.

For doing more with the svg (incorporating artful tokens etc.), I have my
doubts about that. It would be too easy for a WYSIWYG editor to mess this
up. Such svgs would have to be edited in an xml editor after the designer
had completed his initial work...

-- Frederick

On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:

> Frederick,
> no I am realistic that a designer of a map cares more about the SVG
> structure than you already did. I only wondered how far you went, most
> likely you define the upper limit of carefulness. ;-)
>
> My goal is to separate those parts of the background map, which are
> better generated/manipulated by
> the code and which by the human designer.
>
> My current thoughts are:
>
> * A hex grid SVG definition should be generated by a program. There are
> SVG online generators (e.g.
> http://axiscity.hexamon.net/users/isomage/misc/svg-hex.cgi), however I
> assume coding an own one, is not too difficult. This would allow to
> generate a hexgrid as a SVG based on Rails map definitions.
>
> * The hex grid could then be imported by a designer to add the
> background map. If Inkscape is used it is easy to separate the two parts
> (grid and map) by layers.
>
> * It is possible to add another SVG layer that shows the Rails
> predefined tiles on the hexgrid. This would make the designing task
> easier, at it would show, what content is expected in each hex.
> By using layers, it can be easily separated later on.
>
> I still have to think more about tiles. I would like to change tiles
> that it is possible to change them by code. This would imply that the
> base structure has to be defined manually to make code manipulation
> easier. The reason for that would be e.g. to add tokens, add offboard
> values, city names, all stuff that is already contained in the xml
> definitions.
>
> What do you (and others think) about that?
>
> Stefan
>
>
> Frederick Weld <fre...@go...>schrieb:
>
>     Stefan:
>     Actually, I use Inkscape as a WYSIWYG tool and do not bother about
>     redundancies in the residual svg as long as the file size is less
>     than 100k. I keep the layers and grouping in the pushed svg versions
>     so that anyone could easily alter aspects of the svg.
>
>     A lot of your questions are pointing into the direction that the
>     designer needs to care more about the svg model. That could come
>     with a lot of advantages but keep in mind that any compulsion to do
>     this could potentially turn away WYSIWYG designers. Here are some
>     answers:
>
>     - The ids are auto-assigned but could be changed within the tool.
>
>     - I don't think that Inkscape can be forced to retain the syntax of
>     tiles copied from outside.
>
>     - I am not aware of any in-tool support for css, but I could imagine
>     that other tools (or even Inkscape with direct svg editing) provide
>     for that.
>
>     - I use separate hexes instead of a hex grid since I often need the
>     hex definition to add a filling (eg., prelaid tiles at the coast).
>     But I imagine that other designs could differ regarding this aspect.
>
>     -- Frederick
>
>     On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Stefan Frey<ste...@we...
>     <mailto:ste...@we...>> wrote:
>
>         Frederick:
>         thanks a lot. Your feedback is really helpful.
>
>         And I appreciate your functional but good-looking design.
>
>         I am currently looking into how interact with the svg maps from
>         inside
>         the code.
>
>         Maybe some questions up-front:
>
>         * How did you (or Inkscape) assing ids to your elements? Is
>         there any
>         system to it, that relates to the actual 18xx definitions?
>
>         * Is it possible to force Inkscape to use pre-defined styles for
>         attributes (inline or external CSS) to reduce the replication
>         inside the
>         svg?
>
>         * Inkscape seems to change the syntax of tile definitions at the
>         time
>         copying (e.g. uses relative coordinates instead of absolute
>         coordinates
>         for the path definitions).
>
>         * It seems that it is possible to save it as plain svg without
>         quality
>         loss (however it prevents Inkscape to identify the layer
>         information).
>
>         * Do you have a good idea to avoid the duplication of drawing
>         the hex
>         borders? I think it would be a good idea to separate drawing the
> hex
>         grid from the hex content to avoid that.
>
>         I do not want to change the map code too much in 2.0, except for
>         replacing batik. However I want to improve that in the next
> upcoming
>         releases. So I am still very open for ideas.
>
>         Stefan
>
>
>         On 12/05/2014 03:12 PM, Frederick Weld wrote:
>          > Stefan:
>          > The hexes have the same size as the tile svgs. This makes it
>         possible to
>          > just copy required tiles (Altoona...) from the tile svg into
>         the map.
>          >
>          > These tile svgs are the one very important element of reuse.
>          >
>          > I reuse further parts from my former maps - but this is
>         rather pure
>          > design (shape/color patterns for rendering...).
>          >
>          > I do not use any specific coordinate system and, as a result,
>         I have to
>          > calibrate the maps within the game to get the x/y/scale
>         parameters. This
>          > is no drawback though, as I often want to be able to make the
>         decision
>          > how much "padding" the grid needs within my map's layout...
>          >
>          > -- Frederick
>          >
>          > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Stefan Frey
>         <ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>
>          > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>> wrote:
>          >
>          >     Frederick:
>          >     thanks for your feedback.
>          >     I assumed this by the size of the files, however I had no
>         time yet
>          >     to look into details.
>          >
>          >     One further question: What coordinates did you choose for
>         your maps?
>          >     Is it identical across your maps? What is the size of one
>         hexagon in
>          >     those coordinates. Have you already started to create
>         single tiles
>          >     for reuse? I am keen on replacing the existing tile
>         creation process
>          >     by a simpler one.
>          >
>          >     Most likely you can guess where I am hinting at, but I
>         will give
>          >     more details on Sunday.
>          >
>          >     Great work,
>          >     Stefan
>          >
>          >
>          >
>          >
>          >
>          >     Frederick Weld <fre...@go...
>         <mailto:fre...@go...>
>          >     <mailto:fre...@go...
>         <mailto:fre...@go...>>>schrieb:
>          >
>          >         Stefan:
>          >         I use Inkscape for creating/editing the vector maps.
>         They are
>          >         stored in svg format. I couldn't imagine any other
>         combination
>          >         which would fit our needs here in a better manner.
>          >
>          >         SVG files are verbose but their size gets shrunk by
>         compression
>          >         to 10-15% of the original size. My maps are <100k when
>          >         compressed. Hence, I do not think this is a real issue.
>          >
>          >         However, the situation is different for converted
>         maps (in
>          >         rails, e.g, 18EU, 18AL). They include a lot of
>         superfluous paths
>          >         (including paths instead of text) and get bloated and
>         slow to
>          >         draw as a result. That (and copyright considerations)
>         is why I
>          >         always build my maps from the scratch.
>          >
>          >         The svg lib could be exchanged, of course. But as a
>          >         prerequisite, the new lib should be regression-free
>         with respect
>          >         to exiting background maps.
>          >
>          >         -- Frederick
>          >
>          >         On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Stefan
>         Frey<ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>
>          >         <mailto:ste...@we...
>         <mailto:ste...@we...>>> wrote:
>          >
>          >             Frederick:
>          >             we could do that later on. Most people now know that
>          >             rails_2_develop is
>          >             the (default) branch for rails 2.
>          >
>          >             My (future) release strategy is based on
>          >
>          > http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/
>          >
>          >             However I still consider moving the git repo
>         (only the repo,
>          >             not the
>          >             other parts) to github, then this will happen
>         with the
>          >             official rails
>          >             2.0 release.
>          >
>          >             I am looking forward to seeing more maps from you.
>          >
>          >             One question: In which format and tools do you
>         create your
>          >             maps?
>          >
>          >             Most likely you will know that I intend to
>         replace the Batik
>          >             lib soon.
>          >             However which long-run strategy to choose how
> display
>          >             maps/tiles for Rails.
>          >
>          >             In the short-run I will simply replace Batik by a
>         more
>          >             light-weight SVG
>          >             library, but I am open to recommendations.
>          >
>          >             Stefan
>          >
>          >
>          >             On 12/04/2014 10:16 AM, Frederick Weld wrote:
>          >              > Stefan:
>          >              > There is no standard 1830 map yet. I will
>         probably do
>          >             that after the
>          >              > Coalfield map has been reviewed (bgg) and
>         thoroughly
>          >             play-tested.
>          >              >
>          >              > How about labeling rails_2_develop as master?
>         Then the
>          >             meaning would be
>          >              > clear: Current state of validated development
>         which is
>          >             eligible for the
>          >              > next release.
>          >              >
>          >              > -- Frederick
>          >              >
>          >              >
>          >              >
>          >              >
>          >              >
>          >
>
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Re: [Rails-devel] SVG background maps (was: Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop)

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

Frederick,
no I am realistic that a designer of a map cares more about the SVG 
structure than you already did. I only wondered how far you went, most 
likely you define the upper limit of carefulness. ;-)

My goal is to separate those parts of the background map, which are 
better generated/manipulated by
the code and which by the human designer.

My current thoughts are:

* A hex grid SVG definition should be generated by a program. There are 
SVG online generators (e.g. 
http://axiscity.hexamon.net/users/isomage/misc/svg-hex.cgi), however I 
assume coding an own one, is not too difficult. This would allow to 
generate a hexgrid as a SVG based on Rails map definitions.

* The hex grid could then be imported by a designer to add the 
background map. If Inkscape is used it is easy to separate the two parts 
(grid and map) by layers.

* It is possible to add another SVG layer that shows the Rails 
predefined tiles on the hexgrid. This would make the designing task 
easier, at it would show, what content is expected in each hex.
By using layers, it can be easily separated later on.

I still have to think more about tiles. I would like to change tiles 
that it is possible to change them by code. This would imply that the 
base structure has to be defined manually to make code manipulation 
easier. The reason for that would be e.g. to add tokens, add offboard 
values, city names, all stuff that is already contained in the xml 
definitions.

What do you (and others think) about that?

Stefan


Frederick Weld <fre...@go...>schrieb:

    Stefan:
    Actually, I use Inkscape as a WYSIWYG tool and do not bother about
    redundancies in the residual svg as long as the file size is less
    than 100k. I keep the layers and grouping in the pushed svg versions
    so that anyone could easily alter aspects of the svg.

    A lot of your questions are pointing into the direction that the
    designer needs to care more about the svg model. That could come
    with a lot of advantages but keep in mind that any compulsion to do
    this could potentially turn away WYSIWYG designers. Here are some
    answers:

    - The ids are auto-assigned but could be changed within the tool.

    - I don't think that Inkscape can be forced to retain the syntax of
    tiles copied from outside.

    - I am not aware of any in-tool support for css, but I could imagine
    that other tools (or even Inkscape with direct svg editing) provide
    for that.

    - I use separate hexes instead of a hex grid since I often need the
    hex definition to add a filling (eg., prelaid tiles at the coast).
    But I imagine that other designs could differ regarding this aspect.

    -- Frederick

    On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Stefan Frey<ste...@we...
    <mailto:ste...@we...>> wrote:

        Frederick:
        thanks a lot. Your feedback is really helpful.

        And I appreciate your functional but good-looking design.

        I am currently looking into how interact with the svg maps from
        inside
        the code.

        Maybe some questions up-front:

        * How did you (or Inkscape) assing ids to your elements? Is
        there any
        system to it, that relates to the actual 18xx definitions?

        * Is it possible to force Inkscape to use pre-defined styles for
        attributes (inline or external CSS) to reduce the replication
        inside the
        svg?

        * Inkscape seems to change the syntax of tile definitions at the
        time
        copying (e.g. uses relative coordinates instead of absolute
        coordinates
        for the path definitions).

        * It seems that it is possible to save it as plain svg without
        quality
        loss (however it prevents Inkscape to identify the layer
        information).

        * Do you have a good idea to avoid the duplication of drawing
        the hex
        borders? I think it would be a good idea to separate drawing the hex
        grid from the hex content to avoid that.

        I do not want to change the map code too much in 2.0, except for
        replacing batik. However I want to improve that in the next upcoming
        releases. So I am still very open for ideas.

        Stefan


        On 12/05/2014 03:12 PM, Frederick Weld wrote:
         > Stefan:
         > The hexes have the same size as the tile svgs. This makes it
        possible to
         > just copy required tiles (Altoona...) from the tile svg into
        the map.
         >
         > These tile svgs are the one very important element of reuse.
         >
         > I reuse further parts from my former maps - but this is
        rather pure
         > design (shape/color patterns for rendering...).
         >
         > I do not use any specific coordinate system and, as a result,
        I have to
         > calibrate the maps within the game to get the x/y/scale
        parameters. This
         > is no drawback though, as I often want to be able to make the
        decision
         > how much "padding" the grid needs within my map's layout...
         >
         > -- Frederick
         >
         > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Stefan Frey
        <ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>
         > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>> wrote:
         >
         >     Frederick:
         >     thanks for your feedback.
         >     I assumed this by the size of the files, however I had no
        time yet
         >     to look into details.
         >
         >     One further question: What coordinates did you choose for
        your maps?
         >     Is it identical across your maps? What is the size of one
        hexagon in
         >     those coordinates. Have you already started to create
        single tiles
         >     for reuse? I am keen on replacing the existing tile
        creation process
         >     by a simpler one.
         >
         >     Most likely you can guess where I am hinting at, but I
        will give
         >     more details on Sunday.
         >
         >     Great work,
         >     Stefan
         >
         >
         >
         >
         >
         >     Frederick Weld <fre...@go...
        <mailto:fre...@go...>
         >     <mailto:fre...@go...
        <mailto:fre...@go...>>>schrieb:
         >
         >         Stefan:
         >         I use Inkscape for creating/editing the vector maps.
        They are
         >         stored in svg format. I couldn't imagine any other
        combination
         >         which would fit our needs here in a better manner.
         >
         >         SVG files are verbose but their size gets shrunk by
        compression
         >         to 10-15% of the original size. My maps are <100k when
         >         compressed. Hence, I do not think this is a real issue.
         >
         >         However, the situation is different for converted
        maps (in
         >         rails, e.g, 18EU, 18AL). They include a lot of
        superfluous paths
         >         (including paths instead of text) and get bloated and
        slow to
         >         draw as a result. That (and copyright considerations)
        is why I
         >         always build my maps from the scratch.
         >
         >         The svg lib could be exchanged, of course. But as a
         >         prerequisite, the new lib should be regression-free
        with respect
         >         to exiting background maps.
         >
         >         -- Frederick
         >
         >         On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Stefan
        Frey<ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>
         >         <mailto:ste...@we...
        <mailto:ste...@we...>>> wrote:
         >
         >             Frederick:
         >             we could do that later on. Most people now know that
         >             rails_2_develop is
         >             the (default) branch for rails 2.
         >
         >             My (future) release strategy is based on
         >
         > http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/
         >
         >             However I still consider moving the git repo
        (only the repo,
         >             not the
         >             other parts) to github, then this will happen
        with the
         >             official rails
         >             2.0 release.
         >
         >             I am looking forward to seeing more maps from you.
         >
         >             One question: In which format and tools do you
        create your
         >             maps?
         >
         >             Most likely you will know that I intend to
        replace the Batik
         >             lib soon.
         >             However which long-run strategy to choose how display
         >             maps/tiles for Rails.
         >
         >             In the short-run I will simply replace Batik by a
        more
         >             light-weight SVG
         >             library, but I am open to recommendations.
         >
         >             Stefan
         >
         >
         >             On 12/04/2014 10:16 AM, Frederick Weld wrote:
         >              > Stefan:
         >              > There is no standard 1830 map yet. I will
        probably do
         >             that after the
         >              > Coalfield map has been reviewed (bgg) and
        thoroughly
         >             play-tested.
         >              >
         >              > How about labeling rails_2_develop as master?
        Then the
         >             meaning would be
         >              > clear: Current state of validated development
        which is
         >             eligible for the
         >              > next release.
         >              >
         >              > -- Frederick
         >              >
         >              >
         >              >
         >              >
         >              >
         >
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         >     <mailto:Rai...@li...
        <mailto:Rai...@li...>>
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         >
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         >
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Re: [Rails-devel] DockingFrames lib upgraded to 1.1.1

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

no need to hurry, I do no expect an immediate release date of 2.0 ;-)

On 12/09/2014 07:58 AM, Frederick Weld wrote:
> Stefan:
> I'll give it a try the next time I run rails2, though this might not be
> in the short term.
>
> -- Frederick
>
> On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 6:12 PM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...
> <mailto:ste...@we...>> wrote:
>
>     Frederick:
>     I did upgrade to DockingFrames 1.1.1, as it claims to be more stable.
>     Could you please test if it works?
>     Thanks,
>     Stefan
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: [Rails-devel] DockingFrames lib upgraded to 1.1.1

[Frederick W. <fre...@go...>]

Stefan:
I'll give it a try the next time I run rails2, though this might not be in
the short term.

-- Frederick

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 6:12 PM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:

> Frederick:
> I did upgrade to DockingFrames 1.1.1, as it claims to be more stable.
> Could you please test if it works?
> Thanks,
> Stefan
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
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Re: [Rails-devel] SVG background maps (was: Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop)

[Frederick W. <fre...@go...>]

Stefan:
Actually, I use Inkscape as a WYSIWYG tool and do not bother about
redundancies in the residual svg as long as the file size is less than
100k. I keep the layers and grouping in the pushed svg versions so that
anyone could easily alter aspects of the svg.

A lot of your questions are pointing into the direction that the designer
needs to care more about the svg model. That could come with a lot of
advantages but keep in mind that any compulsion to do this could
potentially turn away WYSIWYG designers. Here are some answers:

- The ids are auto-assigned but could be changed within the tool.

- I don't think that Inkscape can be forced to retain the syntax of tiles
copied from outside.

- I am not aware of any in-tool support for css, but I could imagine that
other tools (or even Inkscape with direct svg editing) provide for that.

- I use separate hexes instead of a hex grid since I often need the hex
definition to add a filling (eg., prelaid tiles at the coast). But I
imagine that other designs could differ regarding this aspect.

-- Frederick

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:

> Frederick:
> thanks a lot. Your feedback is really helpful.
>
> And I appreciate your functional but good-looking design.
>
> I am currently looking into how interact with the svg maps from inside
> the code.
>
> Maybe some questions up-front:
>
> * How did you (or Inkscape) assing ids to your elements? Is there any
> system to it, that relates to the actual 18xx definitions?
>
> * Is it possible to force Inkscape to use pre-defined styles for
> attributes (inline or external CSS) to reduce the replication inside the
> svg?
>
> * Inkscape seems to change the syntax of tile definitions at the time
> copying (e.g. uses relative coordinates instead of absolute coordinates
> for the path definitions).
>
> * It seems that it is possible to save it as plain svg without quality
> loss (however it prevents Inkscape to identify the layer information).
>
> * Do you have a good idea to avoid the duplication of drawing the hex
> borders? I think it would be a good idea to separate drawing the hex
> grid from the hex content to avoid that.
>
> I do not want to change the map code too much in 2.0, except for
> replacing batik. However I want to improve that in the next upcoming
> releases. So I am still very open for ideas.
>
> Stefan
>
>
> On 12/05/2014 03:12 PM, Frederick Weld wrote:
> > Stefan:
> > The hexes have the same size as the tile svgs. This makes it possible to
> > just copy required tiles (Altoona...) from the tile svg into the map.
> >
> > These tile svgs are the one very important element of reuse.
> >
> > I reuse further parts from my former maps - but this is rather pure
> > design (shape/color patterns for rendering...).
> >
> > I do not use any specific coordinate system and, as a result, I have to
> > calibrate the maps within the game to get the x/y/scale parameters. This
> > is no drawback though, as I often want to be able to make the decision
> > how much "padding" the grid needs within my map's layout...
> >
> > -- Frederick
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...
> > <mailto:ste...@we...>> wrote:
> >
> >     Frederick:
> >     thanks for your feedback.
> >     I assumed this by the size of the files, however I had no time yet
> >     to look into details.
> >
> >     One further question: What coordinates did you choose for your maps?
> >     Is it identical across your maps? What is the size of one hexagon in
> >     those coordinates. Have you already started to create single tiles
> >     for reuse? I am keen on replacing the existing tile creation process
> >     by a simpler one.
> >
> >     Most likely you can guess where I am hinting at, but I will give
> >     more details on Sunday.
> >
> >     Great work,
> >     Stefan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     Frederick Weld <fre...@go...
> >     <mailto:fre...@go...>>schrieb:
> >
> >         Stefan:
> >         I use Inkscape for creating/editing the vector maps. They are
> >         stored in svg format. I couldn't imagine any other combination
> >         which would fit our needs here in a better manner.
> >
> >         SVG files are verbose but their size gets shrunk by compression
> >         to 10-15% of the original size. My maps are <100k when
> >         compressed. Hence, I do not think this is a real issue.
> >
> >         However, the situation is different for converted maps (in
> >         rails, e.g, 18EU, 18AL). They include a lot of superfluous paths
> >         (including paths instead of text) and get bloated and slow to
> >         draw as a result. That (and copyright considerations) is why I
> >         always build my maps from the scratch.
> >
> >         The svg lib could be exchanged, of course. But as a
> >         prerequisite, the new lib should be regression-free with respect
> >         to exiting background maps.
> >
> >         -- Frederick
> >
> >         On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Stefan Frey<ste...@we...
> >         <mailto:ste...@we...>> wrote:
> >
> >             Frederick:
> >             we could do that later on. Most people now know that
> >             rails_2_develop is
> >             the (default) branch for rails 2.
> >
> >             My (future) release strategy is based on
> >
> >             http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/
> >
> >             However I still consider moving the git repo (only the repo,
> >             not the
> >             other parts) to github, then this will happen with the
> >             official rails
> >             2.0 release.
> >
> >             I am looking forward to seeing more maps from you.
> >
> >             One question: In which format and tools  do you create your
> >             maps?
> >
> >             Most likely you will know that I intend to replace the Batik
> >             lib soon.
> >             However which long-run strategy to choose how display
> >             maps/tiles for Rails.
> >
> >             In the short-run I will simply replace Batik by a more
> >             light-weight SVG
> >             library, but I am open to recommendations.
> >
> >             Stefan
> >
> >
> >             On 12/04/2014 10:16 AM, Frederick Weld wrote:
> >              > Stefan:
> >              > There is no standard 1830 map yet. I will probably do
> >             that after the
> >              > Coalfield map has been reviewed (bgg) and thoroughly
> >             play-tested.
> >              >
> >              > How about labeling rails_2_develop as master? Then the
> >             meaning would be
> >              > clear: Current state of validated development which is
> >             eligible for the
> >              > next release.
> >              >
> >              > -- Frederick
> >              >
> >              >
> >              >
> >              >
> >              >
> >
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >              > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade
> >             BIRT Server
> >              > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports
> >             and Dashboards
> >              > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App
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> >             corporations, FREE
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> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> <
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> >
> >              >
> >              >
> >              >
> >              > _______________________________________________
> >              > Rails-devel mailing list
> >              >Rai...@li...
> >             <mailto:Rai...@li...>
> >              >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >             <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel>
> >              >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
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> >
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> >         <mailto:Rai...@li...>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >         <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel>
> >
> >
> >
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> >     <mailto:Rai...@li...>
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
>
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Re: [Rails-devel] SVG background maps (was: Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop)

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

I want to know how he assing ids too.

On Mon Dec 08 2014 at 9:09:26 AM Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:

> Frederick:
> thanks a lot. Your feedback is really helpful.
>
> And I appreciate your functional but good-looking design.
>
> I am currently looking into how interact with the svg maps from inside
> the code.
>
> Maybe some questions up-front:
>
> * How did you (or Inkscape) assing ids to your elements? Is there any
> system to it, that relates to the actual 18xx definitions?
>
> * Is it possible to force Inkscape to use pre-defined styles for
> attributes (inline or external CSS) to reduce the replication inside the
> svg?
>
> * Inkscape seems to change the syntax of tile definitions at the time
> copying (e.g. uses relative coordinates instead of absolute coordinates
> for the path definitions).
>
> * It seems that it is possible to save it as plain svg without quality
> loss (however it prevents Inkscape to identify the layer information).
>
> * Do you have a good idea to avoid the duplication of drawing the hex
> borders? I think it would be a good idea to separate drawing the hex
> grid from the hex content to avoid that.
>
> I do not want to change the map code too much in 2.0, except for
> replacing batik. However I want to improve that in the next upcoming
> releases. So I am still very open for ideas.
>
> Stefan
>
>
> On 12/05/2014 03:12 PM, Frederick Weld wrote:
> > Stefan:
> > The hexes have the same size as the tile svgs. This makes it possible to
> > just copy required tiles (Altoona...) from the tile svg into the map.
> >
> > These tile svgs are the one very important element of reuse.
> >
> > I reuse further parts from my former maps - but this is rather pure
> > design (shape/color patterns for rendering...).
> >
> > I do not use any specific coordinate system and, as a result, I have to
> > calibrate the maps within the game to get the x/y/scale parameters. This
> > is no drawback though, as I often want to be able to make the decision
> > how much "padding" the grid needs within my map's layout...
> >
> > -- Frederick
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...
> > <mailto:ste...@we...>> wrote:
> >
> >     Frederick:
> >     thanks for your feedback.
> >     I assumed this by the size of the files, however I had no time yet
> >     to look into details.
> >
> >     One further question: What coordinates did you choose for your maps?
> >     Is it identical across your maps? What is the size of one hexagon in
> >     those coordinates. Have you already started to create single tiles
> >     for reuse? I am keen on replacing the existing tile creation process
> >     by a simpler one.
> >
> >     Most likely you can guess where I am hinting at, but I will give
> >     more details on Sunday.
> >
> >     Great work,
> >     Stefan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     Frederick Weld <fre...@go...
> >     <mailto:fre...@go...>>schrieb:
> >
> >         Stefan:
> >         I use Inkscape for creating/editing the vector maps. They are
> >         stored in svg format. I couldn't imagine any other combination
> >         which would fit our needs here in a better manner.
> >
> >         SVG files are verbose but their size gets shrunk by compression
> >         to 10-15% of the original size. My maps are <100k when
> >         compressed. Hence, I do not think this is a real issue.
> >
> >         However, the situation is different for converted maps (in
> >         rails, e.g, 18EU, 18AL). They include a lot of superfluous paths
> >         (including paths instead of text) and get bloated and slow to
> >         draw as a result. That (and copyright considerations) is why I
> >         always build my maps from the scratch.
> >
> >         The svg lib could be exchanged, of course. But as a
> >         prerequisite, the new lib should be regression-free with respect
> >         to exiting background maps.
> >
> >         -- Frederick
> >
> >         On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Stefan Frey<ste...@we...
> >         <mailto:ste...@we...>> wrote:
> >
> >             Frederick:
> >             we could do that later on. Most people now know that
> >             rails_2_develop is
> >             the (default) branch for rails 2.
> >
> >             My (future) release strategy is based on
> >
> >             http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/
> >
> >             However I still consider moving the git repo (only the repo,
> >             not the
> >             other parts) to github, then this will happen with the
> >             official rails
> >             2.0 release.
> >
> >             I am looking forward to seeing more maps from you.
> >
> >             One question: In which format and tools  do you create your
> >             maps?
> >
> >             Most likely you will know that I intend to replace the Batik
> >             lib soon.
> >             However which long-run strategy to choose how display
> >             maps/tiles for Rails.
> >
> >             In the short-run I will simply replace Batik by a more
> >             light-weight SVG
> >             library, but I am open to recommendations.
> >
> >             Stefan
> >
> >
> >             On 12/04/2014 10:16 AM, Frederick Weld wrote:
> >              > Stefan:
> >              > There is no standard 1830 map yet. I will probably do
> >             that after the
> >              > Coalfield map has been reviewed (bgg) and thoroughly
> >             play-tested.
> >              >
> >              > How about labeling rails_2_develop as master? Then the
> >             meaning would be
> >              > clear: Current state of validated development which is
> >             eligible for the
> >              > next release.
> >              >
> >              > -- Frederick
> >              >
> >              >
> >              >
> >              >
> >              >
> >             ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> >              > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade
> >             BIRT Server
> >              > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports
> >             and Dashboards
> >              > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App
> >             Integration & more
> >              > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar
> >             corporations, FREE
> >              >http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&
> iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk <http://pubads.g.doubleclick.
> net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk>
> >              >
> >              >
> >              >
> >              > _______________________________________________
> >              > Rails-devel mailing list
> >              >Rai...@li...
> >             <mailto:Rai...@li...>
> >              >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >             <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel>
> >              >
> >
> >             ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> >             Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT
> >             Server
> >             from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports
> >             and Dashboards
> >             with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App
> >             Integration & more
> >             Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar
> >             corporations, FREE
> >             http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&
> iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> >             _______________________________________________
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> >             Rai...@li...
> >             <mailto:Rai...@li...>
> >             https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
> >
> >         ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> >         Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT
> >         Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports
> >         and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel
> >         Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously
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> 164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk________________________
> _______________________
> >         <http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&
> iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk_______________________________________________>
> >         Rails-devel mailing list Rai...@li...
> >         <mailto:Rai...@li...>https://lists.
> sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >         <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel>
> >
> >
> >     ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> >     Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
> >     from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and
> Dashboards
> >     with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration &
> >     more
> >     Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations,
> FREE
> >     http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&
> iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     Rails-devel mailing list
> >     Rai...@li...
> >     <mailto:Rai...@li...>
> >     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
> > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
> > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
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> >
> >
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[Rails-devel] DockingFrames lib upgraded to 1.1.1

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

Frederick:
I did upgrade to DockingFrames 1.1.1, as it claims to be more stable.
Could you please test if it works?
Thanks,
Stefan

[Rails-devel] SVG background maps (was: Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop)

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

Frederick:
thanks a lot. Your feedback is really helpful.

And I appreciate your functional but good-looking design.

I am currently looking into how interact with the svg maps from inside 
the code.

Maybe some questions up-front:

* How did you (or Inkscape) assing ids to your elements? Is there any 
system to it, that relates to the actual 18xx definitions?

* Is it possible to force Inkscape to use pre-defined styles for 
attributes (inline or external CSS) to reduce the replication inside the 
svg?

* Inkscape seems to change the syntax of tile definitions at the time 
copying (e.g. uses relative coordinates instead of absolute coordinates 
for the path definitions).

* It seems that it is possible to save it as plain svg without quality 
loss (however it prevents Inkscape to identify the layer information).

* Do you have a good idea to avoid the duplication of drawing the hex 
borders? I think it would be a good idea to separate drawing the hex 
grid from the hex content to avoid that.

I do not want to change the map code too much in 2.0, except for 
replacing batik. However I want to improve that in the next upcoming 
releases. So I am still very open for ideas.

Stefan


On 12/05/2014 03:12 PM, Frederick Weld wrote:
> Stefan:
> The hexes have the same size as the tile svgs. This makes it possible to
> just copy required tiles (Altoona...) from the tile svg into the map.
>
> These tile svgs are the one very important element of reuse.
>
> I reuse further parts from my former maps - but this is rather pure
> design (shape/color patterns for rendering...).
>
> I do not use any specific coordinate system and, as a result, I have to
> calibrate the maps within the game to get the x/y/scale parameters. This
> is no drawback though, as I often want to be able to make the decision
> how much "padding" the grid needs within my map's layout...
>
> -- Frederick
>
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...
> <mailto:ste...@we...>> wrote:
>
>     Frederick:
>     thanks for your feedback.
>     I assumed this by the size of the files, however I had no time yet
>     to look into details.
>
>     One further question: What coordinates did you choose for your maps?
>     Is it identical across your maps? What is the size of one hexagon in
>     those coordinates. Have you already started to create single tiles
>     for reuse? I am keen on replacing the existing tile creation process
>     by a simpler one.
>
>     Most likely you can guess where I am hinting at, but I will give
>     more details on Sunday.
>
>     Great work,
>     Stefan
>
>
>
>
>
>     Frederick Weld <fre...@go...
>     <mailto:fre...@go...>>schrieb:
>
>         Stefan:
>         I use Inkscape for creating/editing the vector maps. They are
>         stored in svg format. I couldn't imagine any other combination
>         which would fit our needs here in a better manner.
>
>         SVG files are verbose but their size gets shrunk by compression
>         to 10-15% of the original size. My maps are <100k when
>         compressed. Hence, I do not think this is a real issue.
>
>         However, the situation is different for converted maps (in
>         rails, e.g, 18EU, 18AL). They include a lot of superfluous paths
>         (including paths instead of text) and get bloated and slow to
>         draw as a result. That (and copyright considerations) is why I
>         always build my maps from the scratch.
>
>         The svg lib could be exchanged, of course. But as a
>         prerequisite, the new lib should be regression-free with respect
>         to exiting background maps.
>
>         -- Frederick
>
>         On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Stefan Frey<ste...@we...
>         <mailto:ste...@we...>> wrote:
>
>             Frederick:
>             we could do that later on. Most people now know that
>             rails_2_develop is
>             the (default) branch for rails 2.
>
>             My (future) release strategy is based on
>
>             http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/
>
>             However I still consider moving the git repo (only the repo,
>             not the
>             other parts) to github, then this will happen with the
>             official rails
>             2.0 release.
>
>             I am looking forward to seeing more maps from you.
>
>             One question: In which format and tools  do you create your
>             maps?
>
>             Most likely you will know that I intend to replace the Batik
>             lib soon.
>             However which long-run strategy to choose how display
>             maps/tiles for Rails.
>
>             In the short-run I will simply replace Batik by a more
>             light-weight SVG
>             library, but I am open to recommendations.
>
>             Stefan
>
>
>             On 12/04/2014 10:16 AM, Frederick Weld wrote:
>              > Stefan:
>              > There is no standard 1830 map yet. I will probably do
>             that after the
>              > Coalfield map has been reviewed (bgg) and thoroughly
>             play-tested.
>              >
>              > How about labeling rails_2_develop as master? Then the
>             meaning would be
>              > clear: Current state of validated development which is
>             eligible for the
>              > next release.
>              >
>              > -- Frederick
>              >
>              >
>              >
>              >
>              >
>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>              >
>              >
>              >
>              > _______________________________________________
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>             <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel>
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Re: [Rails-devel] Altoona tile (-30002 vs -30003)

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Frederick,

I see. If you really want to display all possible connections as visible tracks, this indeed is the way to go. 

Erik

 

From: Frederick Weld [mailto:fre...@go...] 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 8:29 PM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Altoona tile (-30002 vs -30003)

 

Erik:

There was also a special svg definition for 30003 and not only an entry in tiles which defines connectivity.

 

I had based the map on that svg which was not well received at BGG - but my fix to it seems to be ok (see http://boardgamegeek.com/image/2331477/frederick-weld),

 

-- Frederick

 

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 3:29 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:

Just to clarify: without a background map, 1830 Reading needs both -30002 and -30003: the former to display that hex (as it looks like on the map), the latter to define connectivity internally.

Tile -30003 should never be displayed. Not sure what was wrong with it, from that perspective.

Erik

 

From: Frederick Weld [mailto:fre...@go...] 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 2:22 PM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: [Rails-devel] Altoona tile (-30002 vs -30003)

 

For the new 1830 background map, I used the 30003 tile, not knowing that the tile set defines to the use of 30002 instead.

 

The 30003 tile got various objections at BGG. Hence, I redesigned it. As a result, I updated both the map and the tile svg.

 

But I didn't change the tile set definition so that the 30002 is still in use for non-background map setups (incl. Reading).

 

-- Frederick


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Rai...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel

 

Re: [Rails-devel] Altoona tile (-30002 vs -30003)

[Frederick W. <fre...@go...>]

Erik:
There was also a special svg definition for 30003 and not only an entry in
tiles which defines connectivity.

I had based the map on that svg which was not well received at BGG - but my
fix to it seems to be ok (see
http://boardgamegeek.com/image/2331477/frederick-weld),

-- Frederick

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 3:29 PM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:

> Just to clarify: without a background map, 1830 Reading needs both -30002
> and -30003: the former to display that hex (as it looks like on the map),
> the latter to define connectivity internally.
>
> Tile -30003 should never be displayed. Not sure what was wrong with it,
> from that perspective.
>
> Erik
>
>
>
> *From:* Frederick Weld [mailto:fre...@go...]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 05, 2014 2:22 PM
> *To:* Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
> *Subject:* [Rails-devel] Altoona tile (-30002 vs -30003)
>
>
>
> For the new 1830 background map, I used the 30003 tile, not knowing that
> the tile set defines to the use of 30002 instead.
>
>
>
> The 30003 tile got various objections at BGG. Hence, I redesigned it. As a
> result, I updated both the map and the tile svg.
>
>
>
> But I didn't change the tile set definition so that the 30002 is still in
> use for non-background map setups (incl. Reading).
>
>
>
> -- Frederick
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE
>
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> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Altoona tile (-30002 vs -30003)

[Erik V. <eri...@xs...>]

Just to clarify: without a background map, 1830 Reading needs both -30002 and -30003: the former to display that hex (as it looks like on the map), the latter to define connectivity internally.

Tile -30003 should never be displayed. Not sure what was wrong with it, from that perspective.

Erik

 

From: Frederick Weld [mailto:fre...@go...] 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 2:22 PM
To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game
Subject: [Rails-devel] Altoona tile (-30002 vs -30003)

 

For the new 1830 background map, I used the 30003 tile, not knowing that the tile set defines to the use of 30002 instead.

 

The 30003 tile got various objections at BGG. Hence, I redesigned it. As a result, I updated both the map and the tile svg.

 

But I didn't change the tile set definition so that the 30002 is still in use for non-background map setups (incl. Reading).

 

-- Frederick

Re: [Rails-devel] Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop

[Frederick W. <fre...@go...>]

Stefan:
The hexes have the same size as the tile svgs. This makes it possible to
just copy required tiles (Altoona...) from the tile svg into the map.

These tile svgs are the one very important element of reuse.

I reuse further parts from my former maps - but this is rather pure design
(shape/color patterns for rendering...).

I do not use any specific coordinate system and, as a result, I have to
calibrate the maps within the game to get the x/y/scale parameters. This is
no drawback though, as I often want to be able to make the decision how
much "padding" the grid needs within my map's layout...

-- Frederick

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:

> Frederick:
> thanks for your feedback.
> I assumed this by the size of the files, however I had no time yet to look
> into details.
>
> One further question: What coordinates did you choose for your maps? Is it
> identical across your maps? What is the size of one hexagon in those
> coordinates. Have you already started to create single tiles for reuse? I
> am keen on replacing the existing tile creation process by a simpler one.
>
> Most likely you can guess where I am hinting at, but I will give more
> details on Sunday.
>
> Great work,
> Stefan
>
>
>
>
>
> Frederick Weld <fre...@go...>schrieb:
>>
>>  Stefan:
>> I use Inkscape for creating/editing the vector maps. They are stored in
>> svg format. I couldn't imagine any other combination which would fit our
>> needs here in a better manner.
>>
>>  SVG files are verbose but their size gets shrunk by compression to
>> 10-15% of the original size. My maps are <100k when compressed. Hence, I do
>> not think this is a real issue.
>>
>>  However, the situation is different for converted maps (in rails, e.g,
>> 18EU, 18AL). They include a lot of superfluous paths (including paths
>> instead of text) and get bloated and slow to draw as a result. That (and
>> copyright considerations) is why I always build my maps from the scratch.
>>
>>  The svg lib could be exchanged, of course. But as a prerequisite, the
>> new lib should be regression-free with respect to exiting background maps.
>>
>>  -- Frederick
>>
>>  On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:
>>
>>> Frederick:
>>> we could do that later on. Most people now know that rails_2_develop is
>>> the (default) branch for rails 2.
>>>
>>> My (future) release strategy is based on
>>>
>>> http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/
>>>
>>> However I still consider moving the git repo (only the repo, not the
>>> other parts) to github, then this will happen with the official rails
>>> 2.0 release.
>>>
>>> I am looking forward to seeing more maps from you.
>>>
>>> One question: In which format and tools  do you create your maps?
>>>
>>> Most likely you will know that I intend to replace the Batik lib soon.
>>> However which long-run strategy to choose how display maps/tiles for
>>> Rails.
>>>
>>> In the short-run I will simply replace Batik by a more light-weight SVG
>>> library, but I am open to recommendations.
>>>
>>> Stefan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/04/2014 10:16 AM, Frederick Weld wrote:
>>> > Stefan:
>>> > There is no standard 1830 map yet. I will probably do that after the
>>> > Coalfield map has been reviewed (bgg) and thoroughly play-tested.
>>> >
>>> > How about labeling rails_2_develop as master? Then the meaning would be
>>> > clear: Current state of validated development which is eligible for the
>>> > next release.
>>> >
>>> > -- Frederick
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>   >
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>>> > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and
>>> Dashboards
>>> > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration &
>>> more
>>> > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations,
>>> FREE
>>> >
>>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Rails-devel mailing list
>>> > Rai...@li...
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
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>>
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Rails-devel] Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

<html>
  <head>
  </head>
  <body>Frederick:<br>
thanks for your feedback. <br>
 I assumed this by the size of the files, however I had no time yet to look into details.<br>
<br>
One further question: What coordinates did you choose for your maps? Is it identical across your maps? What is the size of one hexagon in those coordinates. Have you already started to create single tiles for reuse? I am keen on replacing the existing tile creation process by a simpler one.<br>
<br>
Most likely you can guess where I am hinting at, but I will give more details on Sunday. <br>
<br>
Great work, <br>
Stefan<br>
<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><br>
<br>
Frederick Weld &lt;fre...@go...&gt;schrieb:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">

    <div>
      Stefan:
      <div>
        I use Inkscape for creating/editing the vector maps. They are stored in svg format. I couldn&#39;t imagine any other combination which would fit our needs here in a better manner.
      </div>
      <div>
        <br/>
      </div>
      <div>
        SVG files are verbose but their size gets shrunk by compression to 10-15% of the original size. My maps are &lt;100k when compressed. Hence, I do not think this is a real issue.
      </div>
      <div>
        <br/>
      </div>
      <div>
        However, the situation is different for converted maps (in rails, e.g, 18EU, 18AL). They include a lot of superfluous paths (including paths instead of text) and get bloated and slow to draw as a result. That (and copyright considerations) is why I always build my maps from the scratch.
      </div>
      <div>
        <br/>
      </div>
      <div>
        The svg lib could be exchanged, of course. But as a prerequisite, the new lib should be regression-free with respect to exiting background maps.
      </div>
      <div>
        <br/>
      </div>
      <div>
        -- Frederick
      </div>
    </div>
    <div class="gmail_extra">
      <br/>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Stefan Frey<span> &lt;<a href="mailto:ste...@we..." target="_blank">ste...@we...</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br/>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left: 1.0px rgb(204,204,204) solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;">
          Frederick:<br/>
          we could do that later on. Most people now know that rails_2_develop is<br/>
          the (default) branch for rails 2.<br/>
          <br/>
          My (future) release strategy is based on<br/>
          <br/>
          <a href="http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/" target="_blank">http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/</a><br/>
          <br/>
          However I still consider moving the git repo (only the repo, not the<br/>
          other parts) to github, then this will happen with the official rails<br/>
          2.0 release.<br/>
          <br/>
          I am looking forward to seeing more maps from you.<br/>
          <br/>
          One question: In which format and tools&nbsp; do you create your maps?<br/>
          <br/>
          Most likely you will know that I intend to replace the Batik lib soon.<br/>
          However which long-run strategy to choose how display maps/tiles for Rails.<br/>
          <br/>
          In the short-run I will simply replace Batik by a more light-weight SVG<br/>
          library, but I am open to recommendations.<br/>
          <span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br/>
          Stefan<br/>
          </font></span>
          <div class="HOEnZb">
            <div class="h5">
              <br/>
              <br/>
              On 12/04/2014 10:16 AM, Frederick Weld wrote:<br/>
              &gt; Stefan:<br/>
              &gt; There is no standard 1830 map yet. I will probably do that after the<br/>
              &gt; Coalfield map has been reviewed (bgg) and thoroughly play-tested.<br/>
              &gt;<br/>
              &gt; How about labeling rails_2_develop as master? Then the meaning would be<br/>
              &gt; clear: Current state of validated development which is eligible for the<br/>
              &gt; next release.<br/>
              &gt;<br/>
              &gt; -- Frederick<br/>
              &gt;<br/>
              &gt;<br/>
              &gt;<br/>
              &gt;<br/>
            </div>
          </div>
          <div class="HOEnZb">
            <div class="h5">
              &gt; ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br/>
              &gt; Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server<br/>
              &gt; from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards<br/>
              &gt; with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration &amp; more<br/>
              &gt; Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE<br/>
              &gt;<a href="http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&amp;iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk" target="_blank"> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&amp;iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk</a><br/>
              &gt;<br/>
              &gt;<br/>
              &gt;<br/>
              &gt; _______________________________________________<br/>
              &gt; Rails-devel mailing list<br/>
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[Rails-devel] Altoona tile (-30002 vs -30003)

[Frederick W. <fre...@go...>]

For the new 1830 background map, I used the 30003 tile, not knowing that
the tile set defines to the use of 30002 instead.

The 30003 tile got various objections at BGG. Hence, I redesigned it. As a
result, I updated both the map and the tile svg.

But I didn't change the tile set definition so that the 30002 is still in
use for non-background map setups (incl. Reading).

-- Frederick

Re: [Rails-devel] Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop

[Frederick W. <fre...@go...>]

Stefan:
I use Inkscape for creating/editing the vector maps. They are stored in svg
format. I couldn't imagine any other combination which would fit our needs
here in a better manner.

SVG files are verbose but their size gets shrunk by compression to 10-15%
of the original size. My maps are <100k when compressed. Hence, I do not
think this is a real issue.

However, the situation is different for converted maps (in rails, e.g,
18EU, 18AL). They include a lot of superfluous paths (including paths
instead of text) and get bloated and slow to draw as a result. That (and
copyright considerations) is why I always build my maps from the scratch.

The svg lib could be exchanged, of course. But as a prerequisite, the new
lib should be regression-free with respect to exiting background maps.

-- Frederick

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:

> Frederick:
> we could do that later on. Most people now know that rails_2_develop is
> the (default) branch for rails 2.
>
> My (future) release strategy is based on
>
> http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/
>
> However I still consider moving the git repo (only the repo, not the
> other parts) to github, then this will happen with the official rails
> 2.0 release.
>
> I am looking forward to seeing more maps from you.
>
> One question: In which format and tools  do you create your maps?
>
> Most likely you will know that I intend to replace the Batik lib soon.
> However which long-run strategy to choose how display maps/tiles for Rails.
>
> In the short-run I will simply replace Batik by a more light-weight SVG
> library, but I am open to recommendations.
>
> Stefan
>
>
> On 12/04/2014 10:16 AM, Frederick Weld wrote:
> > Stefan:
> > There is no standard 1830 map yet. I will probably do that after the
> > Coalfield map has been reviewed (bgg) and thoroughly play-tested.
> >
> > How about labeling rails_2_develop as master? Then the meaning would be
> > clear: Current state of validated development which is eligible for the
> > next release.
> >
> > -- Frederick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
> >
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> > Rai...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [Rails-devel] Rails 2.0 alpha 8 available

[Phil D. <de...@gm...>]

Not having the code in place pretty much covers it - good to hear it's
expected :)

On 4 December 2014 at 11:16, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:
> Phil:
> thanks for reporting: It was not yet reported, however I know that I
> have not added any code to support laying bonus tokens in the current UI
> code, thus I would have been surprised if it had worked. ;-)
>
> However it is great to have a test file and will ask you do test on your
> own as soon as I have the code ready.
>
> Stefan
>
>
>
> On 12/04/2014 11:06 AM, Phil Davies wrote:
>> Is there a known problem with private tokens in the current 2.0 alpha
>> or have I found something new?
>>
>> Save file here:
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/218527/1856_20141202_1021_Chris2.rails
>>
>> Buy in the Ship private
>> 'Lay a port token' becomes available on the special menu but when you
>> select that option nothing seems to happen, can't seem to lay the port
>> token through the interface, unless I'm missing something incredibly
>> obvious?
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On 27 November 2014 at 10:42, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:
>>> Freek:
>>> I have fixed with 18Kaas startup bug in rails_2_develop.
>>> It was a bug in the definition of the 18Kaas upgrade path, which was not
>>> catched by the previous code.
>>> Thanks for reporting!
>>>
>>> On 11/21/2014 03:24 PM, Freek Dijkstra wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I haven't looked at 18xx for a couple of years, but got curious by the
>>>> 2.0 alpha version.
>>>>
>>>> I have two minor comments.
>>>>
>>>> 1. When downloading the jar file, I could start most games, but when I
>>>> try a game of 18KaaS, the game never starts. After I click "new game", a
>>>> modal window with progressbar appears, but the progress remains at 0%
>>>> for a few minutes (after that, I gave up).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2. When trying the git repository, the rails_2_develop branch, when I
>>>> run 'gradle' I get the following error:
>>>>
>>>>> FAILURE: Build failed with an exception.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Where:
>>>>> Build file '/Users/freek/Repository/18xx/build.gradle' line: 36
>>>>>
>>>>> * What went wrong:
>>>>> A problem occurred evaluating root project '18xx'.
>>>>>> the number of constructors during runtime and compile time for com.admc.gradle.JavaPropFile$Behavior do not match. Expected -1 but got 2
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that this is due my lack of understanding of gradle (this is
>>>> the first time I've used it). Perhaps a short INSTALL file is in order
>>>> for those (like me) who never used gradle and like to try it out.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Freek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>>>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
>>>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
>>>> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE
>>>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Rails-devel mailing list
>>>> Rai...@li...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
>>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
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>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
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Re: [Rails-devel] Rails 2.0 alpha 8 available

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

Phil:
thanks for reporting: It was not yet reported, however I know that I 
have not added any code to support laying bonus tokens in the current UI 
code, thus I would have been surprised if it had worked. ;-)

However it is great to have a test file and will ask you do test on your 
own as soon as I have the code ready.

Stefan



On 12/04/2014 11:06 AM, Phil Davies wrote:
> Is there a known problem with private tokens in the current 2.0 alpha
> or have I found something new?
>
> Save file here:
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/218527/1856_20141202_1021_Chris2.rails
>
> Buy in the Ship private
> 'Lay a port token' becomes available on the special menu but when you
> select that option nothing seems to happen, can't seem to lay the port
> token through the interface, unless I'm missing something incredibly
> obvious?
>
> Phil
>
> On 27 November 2014 at 10:42, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:
>> Freek:
>> I have fixed with 18Kaas startup bug in rails_2_develop.
>> It was a bug in the definition of the 18Kaas upgrade path, which was not
>> catched by the previous code.
>> Thanks for reporting!
>>
>> On 11/21/2014 03:24 PM, Freek Dijkstra wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I haven't looked at 18xx for a couple of years, but got curious by the
>>> 2.0 alpha version.
>>>
>>> I have two minor comments.
>>>
>>> 1. When downloading the jar file, I could start most games, but when I
>>> try a game of 18KaaS, the game never starts. After I click "new game", a
>>> modal window with progressbar appears, but the progress remains at 0%
>>> for a few minutes (after that, I gave up).
>>>
>>>
>>> 2. When trying the git repository, the rails_2_develop branch, when I
>>> run 'gradle' I get the following error:
>>>
>>>> FAILURE: Build failed with an exception.
>>>>
>>>> * Where:
>>>> Build file '/Users/freek/Repository/18xx/build.gradle' line: 36
>>>>
>>>> * What went wrong:
>>>> A problem occurred evaluating root project '18xx'.
>>>>> the number of constructors during runtime and compile time for com.admc.gradle.JavaPropFile$Behavior do not match. Expected -1 but got 2
>>>
>>> I suspect that this is due my lack of understanding of gradle (this is
>>> the first time I've used it). Perhaps a short INSTALL file is in order
>>> for those (like me) who never used gradle and like to try it out.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Freek
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
>>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
>>> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE
>>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Rails-devel mailing list
>>> Rai...@li...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
>> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
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Re: [Rails-devel] Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

Frederick:
we could do that later on. Most people now know that rails_2_develop is 
the (default) branch for rails 2.

My (future) release strategy is based on

http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/

However I still consider moving the git repo (only the repo, not the 
other parts) to github, then this will happen with the official rails 
2.0 release.

I am looking forward to seeing more maps from you.

One question: In which format and tools  do you create your maps?

Most likely you will know that I intend to replace the Batik lib soon. 
However which long-run strategy to choose how display maps/tiles for Rails.

In the short-run I will simply replace Batik by a more light-weight SVG 
library, but I am open to recommendations.

Stefan


On 12/04/2014 10:16 AM, Frederick Weld wrote:
> Stefan:
> There is no standard 1830 map yet. I will probably do that after the
> Coalfield map has been reviewed (bgg) and thoroughly play-tested.
>
> How about labeling rails_2_develop as master? Then the meaning would be
> clear: Current state of validated development which is eligible for the
> next release.
>
> -- Frederick
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>

Re: [Rails-devel] Rails 2.0 alpha 8 available

[Phil D. <de...@gm...>]

Is there a known problem with private tokens in the current 2.0 alpha
or have I found something new?

Save file here:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/218527/1856_20141202_1021_Chris2.rails

Buy in the Ship private
'Lay a port token' becomes available on the special menu but when you
select that option nothing seems to happen, can't seem to lay the port
token through the interface, unless I'm missing something incredibly
obvious?

Phil

On 27 November 2014 at 10:42, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote:
> Freek:
> I have fixed with 18Kaas startup bug in rails_2_develop.
> It was a bug in the definition of the 18Kaas upgrade path, which was not
> catched by the previous code.
> Thanks for reporting!
>
> On 11/21/2014 03:24 PM, Freek Dijkstra wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I haven't looked at 18xx for a couple of years, but got curious by the
>> 2.0 alpha version.
>>
>> I have two minor comments.
>>
>> 1. When downloading the jar file, I could start most games, but when I
>> try a game of 18KaaS, the game never starts. After I click "new game", a
>> modal window with progressbar appears, but the progress remains at 0%
>> for a few minutes (after that, I gave up).
>>
>>
>> 2. When trying the git repository, the rails_2_develop branch, when I
>> run 'gradle' I get the following error:
>>
>>> FAILURE: Build failed with an exception.
>>>
>>> * Where:
>>> Build file '/Users/freek/Repository/18xx/build.gradle' line: 36
>>>
>>> * What went wrong:
>>> A problem occurred evaluating root project '18xx'.
>>>> the number of constructors during runtime and compile time for com.admc.gradle.JavaPropFile$Behavior do not match. Expected -1 but got 2
>>
>> I suspect that this is due my lack of understanding of gradle (this is
>> the first time I've used it). Perhaps a short INSTALL file is in order
>> for those (like me) who never used gradle and like to try it out.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Freek
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
>> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails-devel mailing list
>> Rai...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
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Re: [Rails-devel] Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop

[Frederick W. <fre...@go...>]

Stefan:
There is no standard 1830 map yet. I will probably do that after the
Coalfield map has been reviewed (bgg) and thoroughly play-tested.

How about labeling rails_2_develop as master? Then the meaning would be
clear: Current state of validated development which is eligible for the
next release.

-- Frederick


>>

Re: [Rails-devel] Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

<html>
  <head>
  </head>
  <body>Frederick,<br>
thanks for a new map. Is there a 1830 background map already?<br>
Master branch has no function currently. <br>
In the future there will be a separate release branch to the develop branch of Rails 2.<br>
Stefan<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><br>
<br>
Frederick Weld &lt;fre...@go...&gt;schrieb:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">

    <div>
      What is currently the purpose of the master branch? In the past, it was the main line for developments to be considered for future releases (which would be 1.9+ now). But the next release will be rails2 if I&#39;ve understood correctly. Hence, it would be sufficient to put any change directly to rails_2_develop.
      <div>
        <br/>
      </div>
      <div>
        Anyway, I&#39;ve just double maintained an additional map (1830 coalfields) into both master and rails_2_develop.
      </div>
      <div>
        <br/>
      </div>
      <div>
        -- Frederick
      </div>
    </div>
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration &amp; more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE<a href="http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&amp;iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk_______________________________________________" target="_blank"> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&amp;iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk_______________________________________________</a> Rails-devel mailing list Rai...@li...<a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel" target="_blank"> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel</a>
  </blockquote></div></body>
</html>

[Rails-devel] Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop

[Frederick W. <fre...@go...>]

What is currently the purpose of the master branch? In the past, it was the
main line for developments to be considered for future releases (which
would be 1.9+ now). But the next release will be rails2 if I've understood
correctly. Hence, it would be sufficient to put any change directly to
rails_2_develop.

Anyway, I've just double maintained an additional map (1830 coalfields)
into both master and rails_2_develop.

-- Frederick

Re: [Rails-devel] Teleporting Privates: Implementation issues

[Stefan F. <ste...@we...>]

John:
Thanks for all your feedback and adding further privates.

I will incorporate it into one document and add it to the documentation 
on the Rails web page.

However I am still not sure how to handle 1830/D&H?

You got me re-think again my position here and I completely agree that 
the rules are at least quiet about laying the token only.

My arguments (with decreasing preference) for allowing laying the token 
without the tile are:

A) If something is allowed by applying general rules and is not 
explicitly ruled as forbidden it should be allowed.

B) It is compatible with 1856, where the rules do not have a special 
rule on this. 1835 is different, but here at least the 2nd edition of 
German rules explicitly forbid to lay the PfB token without a tile.

D) It opens more strategic options for the players.

Also previous discussions on 18xx yahoo group take a similar view, 
however there was no general agreement and most of the discussion was 
around 1856, which is clearly solved by now.

My only argument for requiring the tile lay of D&H in the same turn of 
the token lay is based on the new Mayfair 1830 rules:

It did rule that laying the token on a later turn is not allowed and it 
does not allow to lay the token if a different company laid a tile on 
the D&H hex.
For me this indicated that at least the one who did the Mayfair rule 
editing thought that the tile lay is somehow constitutional for the 
token lay, otherwise he or she could have ruled otherwise and allow the 
token lay to be independent of the tile lay (and solve that identical to 
1856 and W&SR).

What do the others think? I think I would prefer now to allow the token 
lay be possible without the tile lay.
But do we allow laying the token if the tile has been laid either in a 
previous round or by a different company? Which seems to be logical, 
however contradicts the Mayfair rules?

Still undecided,

Stefan


On 11/27/2014 07:55 PM, John David Galt wrote:
> On 2014-11-27 02:39, Stefan Frey wrote:
>> * My suggestions for implementation in Rails:
>>
>> => 1830/D&H: Only offer the special token lay if the special tile has
>> been executed in that turn. Later it is not possible anymore (see
>> Mayfair rules).
>> (Same is true for 18Kaas/D&H)
>
> In 1830 rules it is definitely possible to lay a token without a tile.
> Still, your answer is reasonable.  I can't think of any reason why a
> player would want to lay the tile but not the token.
>
> The other place this commonly happens is the Erie home -- I've seen the
> Erie float and somebody else use up both #59 tiles before Erie's turn!
> I've also seen the Erie (or NYC) not choose to lay its home tile because
> its owner doesn't want to be forced to buy the last 4 train.  In both
> these cases the token is required to be laid in the empty hex anyway
> (and some other company may then build a route to it, just to force that
> company to buy the train).
>