Re: [Rails-devel] 1835 presidency swap: Bug fix required (typos corrected)

[Schnell, V. <vol...@ar...>]

Hi Stefan,

I don't agree with your opinion, that the exchange of the directors 
certificate works with the bank pool.
in all 18xx games, except with receivership like 1829, 1853, the 
certificates are exchanged between players.
The Change of director is also possible, when buying shares.

1835 cases.

Nominal certificate 10%
Director certificate d=2 20% share
Multiple certificate m=2 20% share

X has 40%, x = 4 [d, n, n]
Y has 40%, y = 4 [m, 2*n]

X sells one share, the old director decides about the make up of the percentages (english rules IV.3 last sentence), he receives 1m or 2n from Y.

Same situation but Y buys n, he has now 50% and receives the directors certificate (d). the new director now hands 1m or 2n to the old director, while the old directer decides about the make up.

Greetings
Volker
Am 28.08.2015 um 22:47 schrieb Stefan Frey:
> Follow-up to my proposal below:
>
> * Remark first: "Certificate" versus "Share"
>
> To be precise I use "certificate" to the physical representation of
> shares in 18xx. I use "share" is the smallest unit of the division of
> the share capital in 18xx.
>
> So the president certificate in 1830 represents 2 shares, the other
> certificates are single shares. Each share represents 10% of share capital.
>
> In 1835 the companies of the second group (BA, WT, HE) feature a
> double-share certificate at the bottom of their IPO stack.
>
> The new mechanism is implemented now. As far as it possible and/or
> technical feasible at the moment.
>
> * What are the current limitations on selling shares/certificates?
>
> - Selling certificates can only be done in groups that represent the
> same number of shares.
>
> - As the president certificate can be sold in "parts" (and the old
> president receives Pool certificates in return), it belongs to the
> single share group.
>
> Example: In some cases in 1835 the double share certificates have to be
> sold before it is possible to dump the president.
>
> - Exchanges to the Pool for the new president are executed by returning
> certificates which represent minimal shares. Thus the new president
> prefers to give up two single share certificates instead of one double
> shares certificate.
>
> * What is the long-run target?
>
> Players first select what percentage they want to sell. For Example:
> "40% of BY". If there are several combinations of certificates that
> allow 40% the next step allows to select which certificates to sell.
>
> If the new president has choices what to return to the Pool in exchange
> for the president certificate he is asked to choose.
>
>
> * Reason for this limitation:
> I am reluctant to change the action definitions of selling shares just
> before the Rails 2.0 release.
>
> However behind the scene the code has been changed substantially and is
> already based on the long-run goals.
>
> The automated test games run again and I have added a few new specific
> test cases. However I am still a little bit reluctant and will release a
> new Rails 2.0 beta 5 tomorrow based on the new implementation.
>
> As before feedback welcome and thanks again to John David Galts ideas I
> have based my implementation on.
>
> Stefan
>
>
> On 08/23/2015 04:37 PM, Stefan Frey wrote:
>> John:
>> I really like your suggestion. I think it is a good way to handle those
>> cases in a rigorous way. In addition it is fully compatible with the
>> standard way of how standard 18xx treat the change of director in such
>> cases.
>>
>> I adapted your proposal to include that it is not allowed to sell
>> multiple certificates such that you are able to get a nominal share in
>> exchange, which Volker and Erik referred to.
>>
>> However it is still possible for the director share, which I believe is
>> important. (The second edition of the German rules claim that this is
>> not possible, however I do not agree with that ruling).
>>
>> And Dave is fully right, game rules are not written as algorithms. It is
>> our task to transform those rules into an algorithm which most people
>> can agree on that the algorithm is a good representation of the game rules.
>>
>> So my proposed algorithm (based on John David Galts suggestion) is found
>> below.
>>
>> Again feedback is very welcome.
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
>> * Algorithm for Change of Director after Sale of Stock:
>>
>> ** Definitions:
>>
>> Share nominal n%
>>
>> Nominal (n) certificate 1 times n%
>> Director (d) certificate has d times n%
>> Multiple (m) certificate has m times n%
>>
>> Director X  has x times n% of stock
>> Potential director Y has y times n% of stock
>>
>> Pool P has p times n% of stock
>> Pool limit p_max times n%
>>
>> ** Steps:
>>
>> 1. Director can trigger change of director if he sells s >= (x-y) + 1
>>
>> 2. Only allowed if (s + p) <= p_max
>>
>> 3. Director puts d and other certificates (total o) into the pool, such
>> that (d + o) >= s. Choose o such that o is minimal.
>>
>> 4. Potential (new) director exchanges certificates (of his choice, but
>> see below) of total size e = d with the pool for the director certificate
>>
>> 5. (Old) director receives [(d+o) - s] (of his choice) from the pool, if
>> this is not possible the previous step is repeated with a different
>> choice until the old director receives the required amount of shares
>>
>> 6. If the last step cannot be executed in any way, selling s is not possible
>>
>> ** Remarks:
>> - The program only offers choices in step 4 that allow step 5/6 to be
>> succesfull
>> - The program only offers transaction of size s that can be executed
>>
>> ** Examples:
>>
>> A) 1830 standard case
>>
>> Nominal certificate 10%
>> Director certificate d=2 20% share
>>
>> X has 40%, x = 4 [d, 2*n]
>> Y has 30%, y = 3 [3*n]
>>
>> Pool has 30%, p = 3
>>
>> Director sells 20%  (s=2)
>>
>> 1. Yes: s= 2;  (x-y) + 1 = (4- 3) + 1 = 2
>>
>> 2. Yes: s + p = 2 + 3 <= 5 = p_max
>>
>> 3. Director puts the director certificate, but no other into the pool (o
>> = 0). (d + o) =  2 >= 2, minimal o
>>
>> 4. Potential director exchanges 2 10% shares with the pool
>>
>> 5. Old director gets nothing in return, transaction finished
>>
>> B) 1830 selling the director partially
>>
>> Certificates as above in A)
>>
>> X has 20%, x = 2 [d]
>> Y has 20%, y = 2 [2*n]
>>
>> Pool is empty, p = 0
>>
>> Director sells 10%  (s=1)
>>
>> 1. Yes: s = 1; (x - y) + 1 = 1
>>
>> 2. Yes: s + p = 1 + 0  <= 5 = p_max
>>
>> 3. Director puts the director certificate, but no other into the pool (o
>> = 0) d + o = 2 >= 1, minimal o
>>
>> 4. Potential director exchanges 2 10% shares with the pool
>>
>> 5. Old director receives 1 10% share from the pool
>>
>> C) 1835 case
>>
>> Nominal certificate 10%
>> Director certificate d=2 20% share
>> Multiple certificate m=2 20% share
>>
>> X has 50%, x = 5 [d, m, n]
>> Y has 40%, y = 4 [m, 2*n]
>>
>> Pool is empty, p = 0
>>
>> Director sells 30% (s=3)
>>
>> 1. Yes
>> 2. Yes
>> 3. Director puts director certificate d the pool and a 10% share. It is
>> not allowed to choose the 20% share here, as o has to be chosen to be
>> minimal
>> 4. Potential director chooses to exchange the director certificate from
>> the pool with either the multiple certificate m or the two nominal
>> certificates
>> 5. Old director gets nothing in return, transaction is finished
>>
>> D) Another 1835 case
>>
>> Certificates as above in C)
>>
>> X has 40%, x = 4 [d, m]
>> Y has 40%, y = 4 [m, 2*n]
>>
>> Pool is empty, p = 0
>>
>> Director sells 10% (s=1)
>>
>> 1. Yes
>> 2. Yes
>> 3. Director puts director certificate d the pool, but no other
>> 4. Potential director can only exchange the 2 nominal certificates, as
>> otherwise the director cannot receive the 10% share in step 5. If Pool
>> contains a nominal certificate it is his choice
>> 5. Old director receives 1 10% share from the pool
>>
>> On 08/21/2015 11:59 PM, John David Galt wrote:
>>> Please use this version, I hit send too soon.
>>>
>>> On 2015-08-21 13:18, Stefan Frey wrote:
>>>> Another 1835 implementation issue:
>>>>
>>>> President swaps are not easy to understand for newbies in any 18xx (you
>>>> are not allowed to sell the president share, however you are allowed to
>>>> tear it apart, virtually sell one half of it to the pool and then
>>>> receive two shares by the new director, who gets the fixed director
>>>> certificate, then the old director puts one of received shares into the
>>>> pool and keeps the other).
>>>>
>>>> In 1835 the 20% shares make selling the presidency even more interesting.
>>>>
>>>> Selling the president certificate involves two steps of share movements:
>>>>
>>>> A) Exchange the president certificate with shares from the new president
>>>>
>>>> B) Move the remaining sold shares into the pool
>>> I do not agree that these are separate steps.
>>>
>>>> In 1835 both steps could include either 10% or 20% shares (PR: 5% or 10%
>>>> shares)
>>>>
>>>> Depending on what the president received in A) this might even change
>>>> the possible options for B.
>>>>
>>>> However it implies that the current president has to choose both A)
>>>> which certificate to exchange with the new president and B) which
>>>> certificate to put into the pool.
>>>>
>>>> The current implementation only asks for A) and has some serious bugs in
>>>> executing the share transfers.
>>>>
>>>> I intend to fix those bugs before the next release, however I would ask
>>>> if anyone has a different opinion on how it works for 1835?
>>> I have not seen any case in which the current program gets it wrong (in
>>> my view) -- however, I have not exhaustively tried every single case.
>>>
>>> The following is the exact sequence of events I expect to happen in any
>>> purchase or sale of stock (after any starting packet).  This applies to
>>> all games, not just 1835.
>>>
>>> In a purchase of stock:
>>>
>>> (1) The player buys a certificate, not share(s).
>>>
>>> (2) If the purchase causes a change of president, then the new president
>>> exchanges one or more certificates (totaling the same number of shares
>>> of that company) for the president's certificate, wherever it is.  (This
>>> is a direct exchange between two players, unless the president's
>>> certificate is in the bank pool, as it might be in 1829 (receivership)
>>> or 1853v1 (when the company hasn't floated yet).)
>>>
>>> (In 1835, if there is a choice, the outgoing president chooses which
>>> certificate(s) he receives from among those in the new president's hand.
>>>     I would follow this principle in any other game where any company has
>>> non-presidential certificates of more than one size, if the rules do not
>>> address the question.)
>>>
>>> In a sale of stock:
>>>
>>> (1) A sale that is going to cause a change of president may only be made
>>> if some other player holds at least the number of shares that the
>>> president's certificate contains.
>>>
>>> (2) Except for the special case given in point (5), the player sells
>>> certificate(s), not share(s).
>>>
>>> (3) If the sale will cause a change of president, then one of the
>>> certificate(s) sold must be the president's certificate.  Otherwise the
>>> seller must retain the president's certificate.
>>>
>>> (4) If the sale causes a change of presidency, then the new president
>>> exchanges one or more certificates (totaling the same number of shares
>>> of that company) for the president's certificate in the bank pool.  (The
>>> outgoing president does not participate in this swap and does not have
>>> any right to claim a certificate from the new president's hand.)
>>>
>>> (5) A special case is where a player who holds only certificate(s) of
>>> two or more shares each in that company wishes to sell a number or
>>> shares that is not divisible by one of his certificates.  (For this
>>> purpose "one share" is defined as the amount of the smallest certificate
>>> that exists for that company.)
>>>
>>> In this case the "fractional sale" may only be made if one of the
>>> following is true in addition to point (1):
>>>
>>>       A: The bank pool contains certificate(s) of the company in the right
>>> sizes such that the seller can be given the correct number of shares
>>> from the bank pool.  In this case the seller exchanges certificates with
>>> the bank pool, and then point (4) applies.
>>>
>>>       B: Statement A above is not true, but, the sale will cause a change
>>> of presidency, and the bank pool and the old and new presidents' hands
>>> together contain enough certificates of the company to give both the old
>>> and new presidents the correct numbers of shares, with the new president
>>> holding the president's certificate.  In this case a three-way swap of
>>> certificates is performed.  If there is more than one correct way to
>>> perform the swap, first the outgoing president chooses which
>>> certificate(s) he gives up; then the new president chooses which
>>> certificate(s) he gives up.
>>>
>>>> Example:
>>>>
>>>> In the attached save file OL has the following share distribution:
>>>>
>>>> (Remark: this is from a replay of one of Bill Stoll's 1835 pbem games -
>>>> see http://askwaltstollmd.com/bill/archive/1835zwolf/index.html
>>>> Fun fact is that I played 1835 ftf with one of the players before he
>>>> moved to the US)
>>>>
>>>> Eyal: 50% (1 20% director, 1 20% share, 1 10% share)
>>>> Marco: 40% (1 20% share, 2 10% share)
>>>> Nick: 10% (1 10% share)
>>>>
>>>> What are the possible scenarios for Eyal to sell his directorship?
>>> If Eyal sells 10% (which does not change the presidency), he just moves
>>> his 10% certificate to the bank pool.  Done.
>>>
>>> If Eyal sells 20%, he moves the president's certificate to the bank
>>> pool.  Then Marco takes it and chooses 20% (either one 20% or two 10%
>>> certificates) to place in the bank pool.
>>>
>>> If Eyal sells 30%, he moves the president's certificate and the 10%
>>> certificate to the bank pool.  Then Marco takes the president's
>>> certificate and chooses 20% (either one 20% or two 10% certificates) to
>>> place in the bank pool.
>>>
>>> If Eyal sells 40%, he moves the president's certificate and the 20%
>>> certificate to the bank pool.  Then Marco takes the president's
>>> certificate and chooses 20% (either one 20% or two 10% certificates) to
>>> place in the bank pool.
>>>
>>> If Eyal sells 50%, he moves all three of his certificates to the bank
>>> pool.  Then Marco takes the president's certificate and chooses 20%
>>> (either one 20% or two 10% certificates) to place in the bank pool.
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>> Some special (hypothetical) cases:
>>>>
>>>> A) No shares in Pool
>>>>
>>>> Eyal: 40% (20%P + 20%)
>>>> Marco: 20% (20%)
>>>>
>>>> IPO: 40% (4 10%)
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible for Eyal to sell 30%?
>>>> Answer: No, as it not possible to get a 10% share out of IPO to Eyal.
>>>> Eyal has to sell all 40%.
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>>> B) 10% shares in Pool
>>>>
>>>> Eyal: 40% (20%P + 20%)
>>>> Marco: 20% (20%)
>>>>
>>>> Pool: 40% (4 10%)
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible for Eyal to sell 30%?
>>>> Answer: Likely yes? Is it possible for Eyal to swap the received 20%
>>>> share from Marco with a 10% of the Pool?
>>> In most games (and I think this includes 1835), Eyal is prevented from
>>> selling 30% because this would cause 70% to be in the bank pool.
>>>
>>> But let's change the example by having the pool hold two 10%
>>> certificates and a third player hold the other two.  Then Eyal may sell
>>> 30% by placing both his certificates in the bank pool and taking a 10%
>>> certificate from the bank pool.  Marco must then trade his 20%
>>> certificate for the president's certificate.
>>>
>>> Eyal may also sell 10%.  In this case he just places his 20%
>>> non-president certificate in the bank pool and takes a 10% certificate.
>>>
>>> -end-
>>>
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-- 
Volker Schnell
email: vol...@ar...
homepage: home.arcor.de\volker_schnell