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Re: [Rails-devel] SVG background maps (was: Release strategy - master vs. rails2develop)
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From: Frederick W. <fre...@go...> - 2014-12-09 17:12:32
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Stefan: You propose that the degree of rails/svg-map coupling can vary and that this can be configured in the game's xmls. I couldn't think of a better proposal as this will effectively combine the best of the two extremes I mentioned earlier! As a proof point of your config redesign, you could take the new 1830 basegame map and check whether it can be adjusted in the game config for some minor variants (Reading, Pere Marquette) that do not resize the map (as Coalfields does). If this does not work, you could also make a copy of the basegame map, label it 1830 template map and remove all parts that are not shared by all of these variants. If your redesign succeeded, you would not only have a complete suite of 1830 maps. On top of that, 1830 would serve as an example how to add variable maps to rails. You would have killed two birds with one stone! -- Frederick On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 4:57 PM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we...> wrote: > Frederick: > you also have very valid points: I will surely respect the freedom of > the designer to add anything that is not dynamic. So everything that is > now printed on a 18xx map (including the offboard values) can be defined > by the designer. > I do not want to interfere there. > > However two things I want to add: > > (1) Make it easier for the designer by getting a kind of "template" map > using all information from the xml for consistency. It would also make > things easier for designers to choose the correct scaling (especially > they could paste and copy tiles from the rails repository or reuse parts > of existing maps). > > (2) Do not require the designer to define all elements, which could be > potentially created by Rails: E.g. coordinates, pre-painted tiles, tile > costs, revenue values on specific tiles. Think e.g. variants like in > 1856 where only the revenue value of Toronto is changed. Do we need an > additional background map for this? Or the variant with alternative > destinations etc. However it could be optional, thus it can be defined > in the xml files, if those come from the map or a created by Rails. > > (3) We can keep the current background map option, which is basically a > plain background image, with scaling and translation option which is a > very loose coupling. > > The good thing is that Rails is very well adopted to live with many > variations, thus the increased complexity can very well be handled. > > Stefan > > > > On 12/09/2014 03:57 PM, Frederick Weld wrote: > > Stefan: > > All these are valid points. I guess that this is all about the decision > > into which direction rails should go with respect to the map: > > > > (1) Leave it as it is (loosely coupled, working with arbitrary svgs). An > > option here is to add a tool for exporting arbitrary map/companyMgr xmls > > as svg prototypes. > > > > (2) Establish a closer link between the map svg and the game. This means > > that the map has to fulfill specific requirements like having a specific > > coordinate system or omitting information which is drawn by the game > > instead or even further requirements that lead to even tighter > integration. > > > > As I said, option (1) would be ok for me. The tool would assist the > > designer to some degree. > > > > Regarding option (2), I wouldn't like it that much. As an example, the > > designer would also want to define the positioning/style of the offboard > > values. Removing the aforementioned redundancy would only be possible if > > the game/design integration was much tighter, eg., using text/value > > place holders in the svg design. But then the map designer does not > > control every aspect of the representation any more (he might want to > > adjust the style depending on the text/value's length etc.). > > > > Currently, the only aspect which is according to (2) are the row/column > > coordinates which I omitted from my svgs as a result. This is ok for me > > as I seldom need them, but anything beyond would really be detrimental > > from my point of view. > > > > As for the token svgs: I thought about that (incl. code to display them > > instead of imperative token drawing) some years ago but I didn't move > > forward with that. The reasoning behind this was as follows: Other parts > > of the game (especially Game status window) have a textual-only > > representation of the companies. Depending on the token art, it could be > > difficult to match it to the company name. So either each and every part > > of the UI gets these svg tokens or the tokens remain text based. > > Personally, I'm quite happy with the current solution. > > > > -- Frederick > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 11:50 AM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we... > > <mailto:ste...@we...>> wrote: > > > > Frederick: > > my goal is both to shorten time for the designer and make e.g. > scaling > > problems less an issue. > > > > Would you not think that the hex grid will already help other > designers > > to know how large the map size will be. So it is less an issue to > scale > > and translate which currently is far from perfect. > > > > Map.xml is not reliable, as it is hardly used so far. However it is > not > > that diffcult to get that up-to-date. However most likely it will not > > add that automatically, as due to text scaling and positioning it is > > better for a human to decide where and how to put it. > > > > But offboard values should better be derived from xml, as it avoids > > double definition, which is really confusing for players (the same is > > not true for city names which usually have no real impact in 18xx). > > > > And know I will not manipulate Tokens by code and I would only like > to > > place tokens on tiles by code. This requires tiles to adhere a > specific > > structure (to locate the token slots), not potential tokens svg > files. > > Would you be interested to design tokens for Rails in svg? It is > easy to > > add code to support user-supplied tokens, if anyone is interested to > > create some. > > > > Stefan > > > > > > On 12/09/2014 11:31 AM, Frederick Weld wrote: > > > Stefan: > > > If your goal is to shorten the time a designer needs for a new svg, > > > these ideas would certainly contribute to that. Although, for me, > > > recreating the hex grid amounted to only about 10% of the time, the > > > remainder being creating coastlines/rivers and design/placing of > shapes. > > > > > > Map.xml's city/town names are also not reliable - at least town > names > > > are never included. > > > > > > So, as a result, I wouldn't create more svgs if such svg > pregeneration > > > functionality existed. But on the other hand, it would save me some > > > amount of time if I created one. > > > > > > For doing more with the svg (incorporating artful tokens etc.), I > have > > > my doubts about that. It would be too easy for a WYSIWYG editor to > mess > > > this up. Such svgs would have to be edited in an xml editor after > the > > > designer had completed his initial work... > > > > > > -- Frederick > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Stefan Frey <ste...@we... > <mailto:ste...@we...> > > > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>> wrote: > > > > > > Frederick, > > > no I am realistic that a designer of a map cares more about > > the SVG > > > structure than you already did. I only wondered how far you > > went, most > > > likely you define the upper limit of carefulness. ;-) > > > > > > My goal is to separate those parts of the background map, > > which are > > > better generated/manipulated by > > > the code and which by the human designer. > > > > > > My current thoughts are: > > > > > > * A hex grid SVG definition should be generated by a program. > > There are > > > SVG online generators (e.g. > > > http://axiscity.hexamon.net/users/isomage/misc/svg-hex.cgi), > > however I > > > assume coding an own one, is not too difficult. This would > > allow to > > > generate a hexgrid as a SVG based on Rails map definitions. > > > > > > * The hex grid could then be imported by a designer to add the > > > background map. If Inkscape is used it is easy to separate > > the two parts > > > (grid and map) by layers. > > > > > > * It is possible to add another SVG layer that shows the Rails > > > predefined tiles on the hexgrid. This would make the > > designing task > > > easier, at it would show, what content is expected in each > hex. > > > By using layers, it can be easily separated later on. > > > > > > I still have to think more about tiles. I would like to > > change tiles > > > that it is possible to change them by code. This would imply > > that the > > > base structure has to be defined manually to make code > > manipulation > > > easier. The reason for that would be e.g. to add tokens, add > > offboard > > > values, city names, all stuff that is already contained in > > the xml > > > definitions. > > > > > > What do you (and others think) about that? > > > > > > Stefan > > > > > > > > > Frederick Weld <fre...@go... > > <mailto:fre...@go...> > > > <mailto:fre...@go... > > <mailto:fre...@go...>>>schrieb: > > > > > > Stefan: > > > Actually, I use Inkscape as a WYSIWYG tool and do not > > bother about > > > redundancies in the residual svg as long as the file > > size is less > > > than 100k. I keep the layers and grouping in the pushed > svg > > > versions > > > so that anyone could easily alter aspects of the svg. > > > > > > A lot of your questions are pointing into the direction > > that the > > > designer needs to care more about the svg model. That > > could come > > > with a lot of advantages but keep in mind that any > > compulsion to do > > > this could potentially turn away WYSIWYG designers. Here > > are some > > > answers: > > > > > > - The ids are auto-assigned but could be changed within > > the tool. > > > > > > - I don't think that Inkscape can be forced to retain > > the syntax of > > > tiles copied from outside. > > > > > > - I am not aware of any in-tool support for css, but I > could > > > imagine > > > that other tools (or even Inkscape with direct svg > > editing) provide > > > for that. > > > > > > - I use separate hexes instead of a hex grid since I > > often need the > > > hex definition to add a filling (eg., prelaid tiles at > > the coast). > > > But I imagine that other designs could differ regarding > this > > > aspect. > > > > > > -- Frederick > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Stefan > > Frey<ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...> > > > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>> > > > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...> > > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>>> wrote: > > > > > > Frederick: > > > thanks a lot. Your feedback is really helpful. > > > > > > And I appreciate your functional but good-looking > > design. > > > > > > I am currently looking into how interact with the > > svg maps from > > > inside > > > the code. > > > > > > Maybe some questions up-front: > > > > > > * How did you (or Inkscape) assing ids to your > > elements? Is > > > there any > > > system to it, that relates to the actual 18xx > > definitions? > > > > > > * Is it possible to force Inkscape to use pre-defined > > > styles for > > > attributes (inline or external CSS) to reduce the > > replication > > > inside the > > > svg? > > > > > > * Inkscape seems to change the syntax of tile > > definitions > > > at the > > > time > > > copying (e.g. uses relative coordinates instead of > > absolute > > > coordinates > > > for the path definitions). > > > > > > * It seems that it is possible to save it as plain > > svg without > > > quality > > > loss (however it prevents Inkscape to identify the > layer > > > information). > > > > > > * Do you have a good idea to avoid the duplication > > of drawing > > > the hex > > > borders? I think it would be a good idea to separate > > > drawing the hex > > > grid from the hex content to avoid that. > > > > > > I do not want to change the map code too much in 2.0, > > > except for > > > replacing batik. However I want to improve that in > > the next > > > upcoming > > > releases. So I am still very open for ideas. > > > > > > Stefan > > > > > > > > > On 12/05/2014 03:12 PM, Frederick Weld wrote: > > > > Stefan: > > > > The hexes have the same size as the tile svgs. > > This makes it > > > possible to > > > > just copy required tiles (Altoona...) from the > > tile svg into > > > the map. > > > > > > > > These tile svgs are the one very important > > element of reuse. > > > > > > > > I reuse further parts from my former maps - but > > this is > > > rather pure > > > > design (shape/color patterns for rendering...). > > > > > > > > I do not use any specific coordinate system and, > as a > > > result, > > > I have to > > > > calibrate the maps within the game to get the > > x/y/scale > > > parameters. This > > > > is no drawback though, as I often want to be able > to > > > make the > > > decision > > > > how much "padding" the grid needs within my map's > > layout... > > > > > > > > -- Frederick > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Stefan Frey > > > <ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...> > > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>> > > > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...> > > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>> > > > > <mailto:ste...@we... > > <mailto:ste...@we...> <mailto:ste...@we... > > <mailto:ste...@we...>> > > > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...> > > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > Frederick: > > > > thanks for your feedback. > > > > I assumed this by the size of the files, > > however I > > > had no > > > time yet > > > > to look into details. > > > > > > > > One further question: What coordinates did you > > > choose for > > > your maps? > > > > Is it identical across your maps? What is the > > size > > > of one > > > hexagon in > > > > those coordinates. Have you already started > > to create > > > single tiles > > > > for reuse? I am keen on replacing the > > existing tile > > > creation process > > > > by a simpler one. > > > > > > > > Most likely you can guess where I am hinting > > at, but I > > > will give > > > > more details on Sunday. > > > > > > > > Great work, > > > > Stefan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frederick Weld <fre...@go... > > <mailto:fre...@go...> > > > <mailto:fre...@go... > > <mailto:fre...@go...>> > > > <mailto:fre...@go... > > <mailto:fre...@go...> > > > <mailto:fre...@go... > > <mailto:fre...@go...>>> > > > > <mailto:fre...@go... > > <mailto:fre...@go...> > > > <mailto:fre...@go... > > <mailto:fre...@go...>> > > > <mailto:fre...@go... > > <mailto:fre...@go...> > > > <mailto:fre...@go... > > <mailto:fre...@go...>>>>>schrieb: > > > > > > > > Stefan: > > > > I use Inkscape for creating/editing the > > vector maps. > > > They are > > > > stored in svg format. I couldn't imagine > > any other > > > combination > > > > which would fit our needs here in a > > better manner. > > > > > > > > SVG files are verbose but their size gets > > shrunk by > > > compression > > > > to 10-15% of the original size. My maps > are > > > <100k when > > > > compressed. Hence, I do not think this is > > a real > > > issue. > > > > > > > > However, the situation is different for > > converted > > > maps (in > > > > rails, e.g, 18EU, 18AL). They include a > > lot of > > > superfluous paths > > > > (including paths instead of text) and get > > > bloated and > > > slow to > > > > draw as a result. That (and copyright > > > considerations) > > > is why I > > > > always build my maps from the scratch. > > > > > > > > The svg lib could be exchanged, of > > course. But as a > > > > prerequisite, the new lib should be > > regression-free > > > with respect > > > > to exiting background maps. > > > > > > > > -- Frederick > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Stefan > > > Frey<ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...> > > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>> > > > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...> > > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>>> > > > > <mailto:ste...@we... > > <mailto:ste...@we...> > > > <mailto:ste...@we... <mailto:ste...@we...>> > > > <mailto:ste...@we... > > <mailto:ste...@we...> <mailto:ste...@we... > > <mailto:ste...@we...>>>>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Frederick: > > > > we could do that later on. Most > > people now > > > know that > > > > rails_2_develop is > > > > the (default) branch for rails 2. > > > > > > > > My (future) release strategy is based > on > > > > > > > > > > http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/ > > > > > > > > However I still consider moving the > > git repo > > > (only the repo, > > > > not the > > > > other parts) to github, then this > > will happen > > > with the > > > > official rails > > > > 2.0 release. > > > > > > > > I am looking forward to seeing more > maps > > > from you. > > > > > > > > One question: In which format and > > tools do you > > > create your > > > > maps? > > > > > > > > Most likely you will know that I > > intend to > > > replace the Batik > > > > lib soon. > > > > However which long-run strategy to ch > > oose > > > how display > > > > maps/tiles for Rails. > > > > > > > > In the short-run I will simply > > replace Batik > > > by a > > > more > > > > light-weight SVG > > > > library, but I am open to > > recommendations. > > > > > > > > Stefan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/04/2014 10:16 AM, Frederick > > Weld wrote: > > > > > Stefan: > > > > > There is no standard 1830 map yet. > > I will > > > probably do > > > > that after the > > > > > Coalfield map has been reviewed > > (bgg) and > > > thoroughly > > > > play-tested. > > > > > > > > > > How about labeling rails_2_develop > > as master? > > > Then the > > > > meaning would be > > > > > clear: Current state of validated > > development > > > which is > > > > eligible for the > > > > > next release. > > > > > > > > > > -- Frederick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The > Free > > > Enterprise-Grade > > > > BIRT Server > > > > > from Actuate! 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Instantly Supercharge Your Business > > > Reports and > > > Dashboards > > > > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, > App > > > Integration & more > > > > Get technology previously reserved for > billion-dollar > > > corporations, FREE > > > > > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rails-devel mailing list > > > >Rai...@li... > > <mailto:Rai...@li...> > > > <mailto:Rai...@li... > > <mailto:Rai...@li...>> > > > <mailto:Rai...@li... > > <mailto:Rai...@li...> > > > <mailto:Rai...@li... > > <mailto:Rai...@li...>>> > > > > > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > > > > > <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free > > Enterprise-Grade BIRT > > > Server > > > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business > > Reports and > > > Dashboards > > > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, > App > > > Integration & more > > > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar > > > corporations, FREE > > > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rails-devel mailing list > > > Rai...@li... > > <mailto:Rai...@li...> > > > <mailto:Rai...@li... > > <mailto:Rai...@li...>> > > > <mailto:Rai...@li... > > <mailto:Rai...@li...> > > > <mailto:Rai...@li... > > <mailto:Rai...@li...>>> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade > > BIRT Server > > > from Actuate! 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