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Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835
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From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2011-07-27 12:41:39
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FWIW, this question has been discussed earlier in the [18xx] yahoo group between 7-11 March 2005, see the archive. The result was equally inconclusive. BTW at the end that discussion had drifted away to another question: whether or not the president may add cash to buy a company train *at any price*, even by selling shares for that purpose. Indeed the rules don’t state an explicit limit, so I was thinking for a moment that this was allowed. But from analogy with other games I think we can better stick with the list price limit, so I have dropped this possibility from my list of options. Erik From: Dr. Martin Brumm [mailto:Dr....@t-...] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 1:04 PM To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game Cc: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835 Hello, The principle behind that rule is that the director is not allowed to fund any money if theres an afforable train in the pool/ipo or funnel cash into another company out of his own pocket while thers a train affordable. The right to choose is in so far retained as he still can choose to swutch trains but inly for the maximum cash in the train needing company. Imho the point should be implemented like an automatic check if a train can be bought with the operating capital and that should be bought with player interaction.(problem arising here is the train swap between companies with the same director and i think thats why there is the clause with the director being able to choose, so maybe we can add a operation/ action to ask if he wants to move another train from another company.) If theres not enough cash for any train that should lead to a menu where the player gets shown his options from all available trains (pool and ipo) and the amount of money he needs to finance. In the case that the company has enough money for buying a train ( again from pool or ipo) and there would be more than one available from differing types we need a menu again stating that the director has the right to choose which one he wants to buy. Regards Martin Von meinem iPad gesendet Am 27.07.2011 um 09:49 schrieb "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...>: Yes, and the next sentence says: “If there is a choice of trains available then he may decide which to buy”. The problems is that “does not have enough cash” and “available” are not further defined. Is the new train “available” only if the company has “enough cash” to buy it? That is the issue., and the rules don’t clarify that. John says no. I’m undecided. I see two ways out of this conundrum: (1) Offer both trains, and let the player ignore whatever he deems illegal, (2) Add a game option (but I don’t see how this choice can be described in a menu item text that is not overly long). Erik From: Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:18 AM To: Erik Vos Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835 Hi Erik & John, Original german rule and translation following: Sollte eine Aktiengesellschaft eine Lok kaufen müssen und nicht If a share company is forced to buy a train and doesnt genügend Betriebskapital besitzen, so muß der Direktor den Fehlbetrag aus have enough working capital, the director must fund the missing amount of money out seinem Privatvermögen zuschießen. of his own private money. If there is a train in the bank pool/IPO that the company can afford the company has to buy that. If theres not enough money to buy even that train out of the pool/IPO the director might decide what and where to buy(cause he pays the money :)). Regards, Martin -----Original-Nachricht----- Subject: RE: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835 Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 16:04:36 +0200 From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...> To: <Dr....@t-...>, "'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'" <rai...@li...> It seems to me that neither interpretation (Martin’s and John’s) can be falsified by any close reading of the rules, be it the German or the (2nd) English versions. “if the company does not have enough cash to afford a train” - it does not say that, it says “If a share company is forced to buy a train and does not have enough cash, then…” without further specifying “enough cash” - to buy what exactly? Erik. From: Dr....@t-... [mailto:Dr....@t-...] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 12:32 PM To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases-1835 Re 1835: Sollte eine Aktiengesellschaft eine Lok kaufen müssen und nicht genügend Betriebskapital besitzen, so muß der Direktor den Fehlbetrag aus seinem Privatvermögen zuschießen. Sollten verschiedene Loks zur Auswahl stehen (Bankpool), kann der Direktor frei auswählen. Sorry Erik and John but your 1835 rule understanding is wrong imho. The director can ONLY fund cash if he company cant afford any of the trains currently in the bank. Hes free to choose then which oine he wants if the company cant afford any. Example: 4 Train available in the pool for 300 Mark 6 Train in the bank (IPO) for 600 Mark Company has 399 Mark, director can buy the 6 with funding 201 Mark Company has 400 Mark, Company HAS to buy the available 4 ! In the english rules it states if the company does not have enough cash to afford a train (so its the same rule as in german original). If the company can afford one train it has to buy that, only if it cant afford even the cheapest one, the director can choose. (And yes i got burned a number of times by that rule :)) Regards, -----Original-Nachricht----- Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Emergency train purchases Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:02:07 +0200 From: "Erik Vos" <eri...@xs...> To: "'Development list for Rails: an 18xx game'" <rai...@li...> > -----Original Message----- > From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...] > > 1. If a company has no train, it can buy any train on offer from Bank, > > Pool or other companies (at any price) that is has enough cash for. > > It is always obliged to buy a used (Pool) train that it can pay for, > > if it cannot afford a new (IPO) train. > > Not true for 1835. There, the president may add cash to buy the cheapest > new train from IPO even if the company can afford a train from the bank > pool. > I believe this goes for 1837, too. I have checked the English and German rules again. These aren't very clear, but I must admit that these can well be interpreted the way you do. The 1837 rules are almost identical. There, the relevant rule XI.11 says: "If there is a choice of trains available (either from the Bank Pool or from another company) the director may decide which to buy", which leaves me wondering why only the Bank Pool is mentioned, and not the Bank initial offering (other usage of the word Bank Pool in the 1837 rules make it clear that the Pool is distinct from the initial offering). Your version of the 1837 rules has many clarifying comments, but not one that deals with this issue in any way. This all still leaves me in doubt. But if no strong contrary arguments arise, I will take over your position. 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