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Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers
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From: Erik V. <eri...@xs...> - 2011-02-16 20:17:10
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To create tile images and XML description, we use TileDesigner from Marco Rocci (see http://www.rails18xx.it/software.html ). This program has not been maintained for many years, and we don't have the source code, but this program is all we have to create tiles, so we have to live with its limitations and bugs. One limitation is that identifiers must be numeric. The program comes with a tile database, containing 442 tiles, mostly tiles with IDs as defined in Blackwater Station's Tile Encyclopedia. It also contains the preprinted 1830 hexes as tiles with negative numbers. We have continued this approach when new tiles were added for other games, initially without much of a system, but more recently we have started to use a more systematic approach using large negative numbers for preprinted tiles. The total tile set now adds up to 559 tiles. For the real (positive) tiles we follow the physical tile IDs where possible, adding 1000/2000/3000 in case of duplicate IDs (as did the original Tile Encyclopedia). The occasional alphanumeric ID has to be replaced by some number; there isn't yet a rule for that. Since some time it is possible to display a different ("external") number than the (internal) tile ID to identify tiles textually in all Rails windows, and from the next release this external ID can be alphanumeric (see 1830 Coalfields, in progress). However, the tile images still display internal IDs only. I suppose the SVG tiles could be tweaked manually to show alphanumeric IDs well, but I haven't looked into that. (BTW the internal IDs are omitted on the preprinted tiles, TileDesigner has a seperate 'export' option for that). Some specific points raised: > >>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic, > >>> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the > >>> tile on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of the > >>> tile on the map helps to match the original board aesthetic. The off-centre city (-10) and village (-1) tiles come from the original TileDesigner database, and in most cases we have used these in creating maps without particular attention to correct placement. The simplest solution would be to rotate such tiles,and/ or to replace these by the centered city (-3008) and village (-3009) tiles, that have been created for 18EU in a much later stage. > >> OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL? As > >> the IDs are currently required to be numbers. For such cases it was proposed to use six-digit negative numbers. But that proposal came after 18AL and 18EU had been done, and IIRC no decision has yet been taken. Erik. > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: brett lentz [mailto:bre...@gm...] > Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 16:27 > Aan: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game > Onderwerp: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers > > Adam - > > If you're interested in refactoring, do it and post the patches. > Reviewing the code will help further the discussion about the change's > merits. > > ---Brett. > > > > On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 3:26 AM, <ab...@o2...> wrote: > > Maybe it would be a good thing to refactor this things and clear it > > a bit. This would ease development of new games. > > > > Adam Badura > > > > -----Oryginalna wiadomość----- > > From: Phil Davies > > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:12 PM > > To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game > > Cc: ab...@o2... > > Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers > > > > Hmm, a quick peek into the tileset.xml shows I was probably lying > > about 1830... > > > > The thing I described below is true for 1856 since that was > > implemented recently, the older implemented games (AL, EU, 30) seem to > > have a -9xx designation for preprinted offboards and city hexes that > > differ from the standard tiles. These likely have no particular order > > or structure inherent to them and were just incrementally added by > > whoever did them. I believe the suggestion was that there would be a > > numeric lookup for games like AL/EU but that has never been > > implemented to date. > > > > I'm working off my assumptions as well here so consider that I may > > well be very wrong, only the person who did the work originally > > (likely several people) could answer but developer activity is > > sporadic around here given most peoples other commitments. > > > > On 16 February 2011 11:00, <ab...@o2...> wrote: > >> OK So how do you deal with games which have letters like AL? As > >> the IDs are currently required to be numbers. > >> > >> Adam Badura > >> > >> -----Oryginalna wiadomość----- > >> From: Phil Davies > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:57 AM > >> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game > >> Cc: ab...@o2... > >> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers > >> > >> 1870 is off centre: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/650167/1870 > >> So is 1830: > >> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/89710/1830-railways-robber- > barons > >> > >> 1830 is probably the most important one since this was the original > >> template which rails was designed against, only later games have had > >> more centralised tile icons. > >> > >> Overall, does it really matter? It's clear what the tile is doing > >> which is all that's really important. > >> > >> The 'large' tile ID's are again game prefixes (25001 is a tile for > >> 1825, 30005 is a tile for 1830, 56001 is a tile for 1856 etc.). They > >> are usually assigned an incremental number based on whichever order > >> the developer chose to add them. For example, 25001 is the London > >> tile in 1825, this has no corresponding physical tile and so cannot > >> be assigned a tile number from any existing tile database, it gets a > >> 25 prefix for coming from 1825 and a 001 likely because it was the > >> first tile of the '25 specific ones Erik chose to add when he did that work. > >> > >> Phil > >> > >> > >> On 16 February 2011 10:44, <ab...@o2...> wrote: > >>> No disrespect but I have to disagree about cities/towns being not in > >>> the center. Consider 18AL > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/302259/18al), > >>> 1889 > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/555394/1889), 18EU > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/134429/18eu), 18GA > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/603478/18ga). However 1851 > >>> (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/126915/1851) is an exception > >>> here for example. > >>> > >>> As to IDs (which is more interesting to me) it seems to me that you > >>> only use numeric IDs (judging by tile files naming) and use large > >>> IDs for game specific tile. However with no clear guidelines how > >>> those IDs where assigned and which are for which game. > >>> > >>> Adam Badura > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość----- > >>> From: Phil Davies > >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36 AM > >>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game > >>> Cc: ab...@o2... > >>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers > >>> > >>> Adam, > >>> > >>> I've just gone back over the archives to pull out the discussion we > >>> had on this a while ago. One of the key issues is that rails needs > >>> tile numbers for all preprinted tiles as well as all of the physical > >>> tiles that exist in the game. Generally speaking, a grey tile that > >>> is preprinted has a negative number matching the corresponding > >>> physical tile if one such tile exists. Tiles that exist only for > >>> specific games are prefixed with the games ID (AL in the case of > >>> 18AL etc.) > >>> > >>> Regarding the towns and cities, this I'm sure is purely aesthetic, > >>> dits and city circles are rarely placed in the very centre of the > >>> tile on maps, they are usually off to one side, the rotation of the > >>> tile on the map helps to match the original board aesthetic. > >>> > >>> Phil > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 16 February 2011 07:22, <ab...@o2...> wrote: > >>>> I thought about using IDs as on the http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ page. > >>>> I > >>>> think it would be better. However it would require code changes to > >>>> allow non-integer IDs. I could try to do that but do you want it? > >>>> > >>>> Also you haven't answered other questions (about towns and > >>>> cities) and negative/positive IDs. > >>>> > >>>> Adam Badura > >>>> > >>>> -----Oryginalna wiadomość----- > >>>> From: brett lentz > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:44 AM > >>>> To: Development list for Rails: an 18xx game > >>>> Cc: Adam Badura > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers > >>>> > >>>> Adam - > >>>> > >>>> Looks like you hit on the issue. There are a few tile numbers that > >>>> overlap or otherwise conflict due to the game designer's choice in > >>>> naming and our own implementation details related to how Rails > >>>> handles tile filenames, etc. > >>>> > >>>> In general, we try to preserve the board game's original tile names > >>>> as best as we can, but sometimes that just isn't possible. > >>>> > >>>> If you can think of a better name for a given tile, please suggest > >>>> it and/or send in a patch for consideration. :-) > >>>> > >>>> ---Brett. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Adam Badura <ab...@o2...> > wrote: > >>>>> After further investigation it seems that the problematic > >>>>> identifiers are for those tiles which are not actual tiles but > >>>>> imprinted ones like the referred –3005. But still game specific > >>>>> tiles are “strange”. Like for example AL441. > >>>>> > >>>>> Adam Badura > >>>>> > >>>>> From: Adam Badura > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:34 AM > >>>>> To: rai...@li... > >>>>> Subject: [Rails-devel] Tiles and Their Identifiers > >>>>> > >>>>> How do you assign tile identifiers? For example 18EU Berlin > >>>>> Yellow tile has code –3005. Why? Why this value? Why not use codes > >>>>> as given on http://www.18xx.net/tiles/ to make them accessible for > >>>>> larger audience? > >>>>> Also > >>>>> what is the difference between negative and positive number in the > >>>>> code? > >>>>> Why > >>>>> base tiles (inprinted) with towns (dits) and cities have those > >>>>> towns and cities not cenetered as is usually drawn on maps but > >>>>> rather pushed at one side and then randomly (as it seems) rotated? > >>>>> > >>>>> Adam Badura > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> ----------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) > >>>> Parallel Studio > >>>> XE: > >>>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen. > >>>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle. > >>>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance. > >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Rails-devel mailing list > >>>> Rai...@li... > >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> ---------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) > >>> Parallel Studio XE: > >>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen. > >>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle. > >>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance. > >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Rails-devel mailing list > >>> Rai...@li... > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > >>> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> --------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) > >> Parallel Studio XE: > >> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen. > >> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle. > >> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance. > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rails-devel mailing list > >> Rai...@li... > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > >> > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) > > Parallel Studio XE: > > Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen. > > Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle. > > Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance. > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails-devel mailing list > > Rai...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE: > Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen. > Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle. > Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb > _______________________________________________ > Rails-devel mailing list > Rai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel |
