Re: [Rails-devel] Rails 1.4 18EU playtest with commentary

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

I went ahead and created bug and feature requests for most of these.  It's
not always clear what should be a bug and what should be a feature request,
so most of them are listed as bugs.

--
Chris

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On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 10:04 PM, Chris Shaffer <chr...@gm...>wrote:

> I'm really not sure.  I'd hate to have the tracker auto-post to this list,
> which I think would be the only solution.  Encouraging people to post here
> if they feel discussion is warranted and also post actual feature requests
> and bug reports is probably best.
>
>
> --
> Chris
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:45 PM, brett lentz <bre...@gm...>wrote:
>
>> What could be done to make the process easier?
>>
>> ---Brett.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Chris Shaffer <chr...@gm...>
>> wrote:
>> > The disadvantage of simply filing bugs and feature requests, of course,
>> is
>> > that there is virtually no discussion of them, because they are not seen
>> by
>> > 90% of the people on this list.
>> >
>> > I often file the bug or feature request and also post here, but that's
>> > double work.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Chris
>> >
>> > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> All good suggestions, and all of these would make nice entries in the
>> >> Feature Request or Bug Report lists. That would have the added benefit
>> >> that
>> >> any discussions can be saved there too.
>> >>
>> >> Some comments from my side; some aspects I will have to leave to
>> Stefan.
>> >>
>> >> Just one general remark: some ideas sound simple, and in theory
>> anything
>> >> is
>> >> possible, but we should keep in mind that there is always a price,
>> however
>> >> small. Additional complexity, slower speed, or just larger code. We
>> should
>> >> not make Rails so big that the word "bloated" starts coming to mind.
>> >>
>> >> Erik
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...]
>> >> Sent: Saturday 11 September 2010 04:32
>> >> To: rai...@li...
>> >> Subject: [Rails-devel] Rails 1.4 18EU playtest with commentary
>> >>
>> >> Comments on Rails 1.4, tested with a four player game of 18EU
>>  2010-09-09
>> >>
>> >> General comments:
>> >>
>> >> *  In the "select game" dialog box, changing to a different game should
>> >> not
>> >> cause all players to be set back to "none" and the names blanked.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] Sure. That's a bug to me.
>> >>
>> >> *  The map should show "Y", where needed, on unbuilt city hexes.  This
>> is
>> >> a
>> >> major annoyance during the start round, because it affects both the
>> city's
>> >> revenue and the possible shapes of the yellow tile, so not seeing it
>> makes
>> >> it hard to predict the values of minors.  (Yes, I know, I can find this
>> >> out
>> >> by mousing-over each one, but that is annoying.)
>> >>
>> >> [EV] I'm a bit surprised that you consider this an annoyance. For me,
>> the
>> >> hard and fast rule is that all minor start cities are either preprinted
>> >> yellow or Y cities, and vice versa. But it is easy to create an extra
>> >> blank
>> >> Y city tile, so that's on my list.
>> >>
>> >> *  The map also ought to show the values of red areas.  (I would treat
>> >> each
>> >> one as a "tile" with a negative number that gets upgraded by phase
>> >> changes.)
>> >>
>> >> [EV] Creating a separate red tile for each possible revenue value
>> sounds
>> >> like overkill to me. Another idea could be to overprint red tiles with
>> the
>> >> current revenue value. The problem is that such values will look
>> similar
>> >> to
>> >> tile laying cost.
>> >> Talking about "the map" - I would love it if we would have map images
>> (as
>> >> SVG files). Then we could show any info we would like.
>> >>
>> >> *  Entering a comment before the first action in the game should be
>> >> allowed.
>> >>
>> >> *  Entering two comments in a row should append, not replace.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] I leave these two for Stefan.
>> >>
>> >> *  It would be nice if the Game Status window had a column showing each
>> >> player's total income in the last round.  This would act as a reminder
>> >> that
>> >> the player who is falling furthest behind had better DO SOMETHING! (and
>> >> conversely, that the player who is making the most money should
>> probably
>> >> not
>> >> change the status quo, by buying lots of trains or starting new
>> >> companies).
>> >>
>> >> [EV] Great suggestion. High on my list.
>> >>
>> >> *  It would be nice if the program could remember (or let you save in a
>> >> config file) the locations of every window, so you don't have to move
>> them
>> >> manual every time you start a game (and often afterward too).  I always
>> >> use
>> >> these settings.
>> >>   Stock market: upper left corner of screen
>> >>   "Game Status" tabulation/stock round input: lower left corner of
>> screen
>> >>   Map/operating round input: upper right corner of screen (and don't
>> allow
>> >>       the height to self-adjust so it's taller than the screen height
>> >> minus
>> >>       the Windows menu bar -- it now does so at the start of every OR
>> >> until
>> >>       there are too few companies to cause it (in my case, 10
>> companies).
>> >>       The map also moves so it extends about an inch to the right of
>> the
>> >>       screen, every time.)
>> >>   History/comment window: lower right corner
>> >>
>> >> [EV] I believe Stefan is already considering this one.
>> >>
>> >> All of the above apply to all games, except that I believe the 1830 and
>> >> 1835
>> >> maps do show you where the lettered tiles go.  Due credit: 18EU does
>> show
>> >> the two "B-V" hexes.
>> >>
>> >> Start round:
>> >>
>> >> *  It would be nice to have alternate starts available, such as any
>> >>   combination of:
>> >>   $400 each to start;
>> >>   all starting prices reduced to $50;
>> >>   bidding round order 1,2,3,4,4,3,2,1,1,2,3,4,4,3,2.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] "such as" - where do the possibilities end? However, your
>> suggestions
>> >> sound like a sensible subset of the infinite universe of possible
>> >> alternatives.
>> >>
>> >> *  "Unlimited tiles" should not be an all-or-nothing setting: there
>> should
>> >> be a setting to make only #7, #8, and #9 unlimited (this is what the
>> rules
>> >> say to do in 18EU, 1826, and 1853v2, and probably many other games).
>> >>
>> >> [EV] I cannot find this in the 18EU rules. However, it's a common
>> >> extension,
>> >> and I agree that it could be a generic option.
>> >>
>> >> *  Bids (above the starting value) look the same as the prices of
>> things
>> >> you've already bought.  Please change this: it makes it nonobvious who
>> >> already owns more companies than others.
>> >>
>> >> *  There should be some visual indication of which players can still
>> bid
>> >> on
>> >> the current item.
>> >>
>> >> *  A player is correctly skipped when an item someone else selected for
>> >> bidding would cost more than he has.  But if it's your turn to select
>> an
>> >> item and you have less than $100, "Bid" ought to be grayed out and
>> isn't.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] Three sensible UI improvements for the start rounds.
>> >>
>> >> Operating rounds:
>> >>
>> >> *  The map should show the reserved hexes controlled by certain minors.
>> >> (I don't expect them to be enforced yet, just shown.)
>> >>
>> >> [EV] Agree. I think there should be a generic configuration option to
>> add
>> >> any text to any tile.
>> >>
>> >> *  Please enforce the rule that minors can't lay green tiles.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] I'm pretty sure that this worked correctly until recently. Stefan,
>> I
>> >> think to have been working on the tile laying rules - can you please
>> >> check?
>> >>
>> >> *  When no tile lay is legally possible, please skip the tile-lay step.
>> >> (Which would mean that after the first couple of rounds, most minors'
>> >> tile-
>> >> lay step would be skipped, speeding up the game a lot.)
>> >>
>> >> [EV] This can only be done if the current disconnect between knowing
>> about
>> >> legal lays (in the UI only) and the round/step management (in the game
>> >> engine) has been fixed. Be aware, though, that any additional action
>> skips
>> >> will make all previous saved files unloadable, insofar these contain
>> >> pass/done actions that are now skipped. I'm very reluctant to do add or
>> >> remove such steps, as that will (again) invalidate many of my saved
>> files
>> >> that I use for testing.
>> >>
>> >> *  When placing tile #581 (green upgrade) in Berlin and trying it both
>> >> ways
>> >> it will go, the tokens that are already there (#9 and KPEV, which I
>> formed
>> >> from #7) are shown, respectively, along the SE and NW edges, rather
>> than
>> >> the
>> >> NE and SW which are the existing connections they must keep.  They move
>> to
>> >> the correct places once I make the tile lay final, but showing them
>> wrong
>> >> makes it harder to place the tile correctly.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] Will look at that. Don't hold your breath - token repositioning on
>> >> upgrades is one of the most complex processes we now have.
>> >>
>> >> *  It would be nice if I were allowed to have the program compute runs
>> >> before I decide what tile to lay.  Sometimes a company is so spread out
>> it
>> >> isn't obvious where its trains are going.  (Of course I can always work
>> >> around this by skipping the tile lay step, then "undo".)
>> >>
>> >> [EV] That's again for Stefan, I think.
>> >>
>> >> *  When deciding whether to pay, split, or withhold, it would be nice
>> if
>> >> the screen showed how much money the company will have after each
>> choice.
>> >> This isn't always easy to work out in your head, especially if there
>> are
>> >> some shares paying dividends into the treasury.  This goes for all
>> games.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] Where should the screen show that? Below each of these buttons?
>> >>
>> >> *  Please get rid of the pop-up "<company> owns no trains, so revenue
>> is
>> >> $0."  Instead, just silently skip the revenue-setting step.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] Agree.
>> >>
>> >> *  The column that now reports "Pay out", "Withhold", or "Split" for
>> the
>> >> last turn of each company ought to say "$0 income" (or maybe "No run"
>> or
>> >> "No train") when that is true, so it doesn't look like the owner chose
>> to
>> >> withhold.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] A sensible refinement.
>> >>
>> >> *  A company's train-buying step is correctly skipped if it has no room
>> >> for
>> >> another train, but it should also be skipped (that is, "Buy Train"
>> should
>> >> be grayed out) if the company has $0 and at least one train.
>>  Similarly,
>> >> if
>> >> a company spends its last dollar on a train (including forced
>> purchases),
>> >> its train-buying step should immediately end.
>> >> (I believe this goes for all games -- or does anyone on this list
>> really
>> >> think that any game exists in which a train "purchase" from another
>> >> company
>> >> for $0 is allowed?  But even if you do, it's explicitly banned in
>> 18EU.)
>> >>
>> >> [EV] Right, but see my above remark on skipping existing actions.
>> >>
>> >> *  When it's impossible for the company to buy or sell any treasury
>> >> shares,
>> >> the TRADING TREASURY SHARES step should be skipped.  (I'm mostly
>> thinking
>> >> of the situation when all shares of the company are owned by players,
>> but
>> >> it also applies if the company has no shares in treasury and has too
>> >> little
>> >> cash to buy one from the bank pool, or there are 5 shares in the bank
>> pool
>> >> and the company has too little cash to buy one.)  Because of the change
>> of
>> >> focus, this is a major waste of time, especially in the late game when
>> the
>> >> only shares not owned by players are those of companies that were never
>> >> started.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] Yes, that makes sense, but see above.
>> >>
>> >> *  Buying and selling treasury stock works correctly, except one minor
>> >> detail: when I mouse-over the "treasury shares" column, the tooltip
>> says
>> >> "click to select for buying" (even though it would be selling).
>> >>
>> >> [EV] OK.
>> >>
>> >> Stock rounds:
>> >>
>> >> *  When floating a new company, if I buy until I have 60% and then
>> merge
>> >> in
>> >> another minor company (to get more than 60% until the next stock round,
>> >> which is specifically allowed in the rules) the exchange occurs but the
>> >> "Done" button stays grayed out, making it impossible to continue the
>> game
>> >> without Undoing the exchange.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] Will look at that bug (if Stefan doesn't beat me)
>> >>
>> >> *  If I start a company (purchase the president's share) and then Undo
>> the
>> >> act of forming it, the status window continues to show the company with
>> >> the
>> >> share price I set.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] Guess we're missing a state variable here.
>> >>
>> >> *  When I buy shares from a company's treasury, the amount of money in
>> >> that
>> >> treasury is usually not updated right away.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] OK
>> >>
>> >> Ending:
>> >>
>> >> *  Please get rid of BOTH pop-ups saying the bank has broken.  Instead,
>> >> just change the space on the Game Status window where the amount of
>> money
>> >> in the bank is normally shown to say "BROKEN", maybe in bright colors.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] The former is simple, the latter a bit less so, but I agree.
>> >>
>> >> *  The repeated pop-ups that "count down" to the winning player are
>> even
>> >> more annoying.
>> >>
>> >> [EV] Fully agree. Luckily I can plead innocence here...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >>
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>> >
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>> >
>>
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