Re: [Rails-devel] Rails 1.4 18EU playtest with commentary

[Chris S. <chr...@gm...>]

I'm really not sure.  I'd hate to have the tracker auto-post to this list,
which I think would be the only solution.  Encouraging people to post here
if they feel discussion is warranted and also post actual feature requests
and bug reports is probably best.

--
Chris

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.


On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:45 PM, brett lentz <bre...@gm...> wrote:

> What could be done to make the process easier?
>
> ---Brett.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Chris Shaffer <chr...@gm...>
> wrote:
> > The disadvantage of simply filing bugs and feature requests, of course,
> is
> > that there is virtually no discussion of them, because they are not seen
> by
> > 90% of the people on this list.
> >
> > I often file the bug or feature request and also post here, but that's
> > double work.
> >
> > --
> > Chris
> >
> > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Erik Vos <eri...@xs...> wrote:
> >>
> >> All good suggestions, and all of these would make nice entries in the
> >> Feature Request or Bug Report lists. That would have the added benefit
> >> that
> >> any discussions can be saved there too.
> >>
> >> Some comments from my side; some aspects I will have to leave to Stefan.
> >>
> >> Just one general remark: some ideas sound simple, and in theory anything
> >> is
> >> possible, but we should keep in mind that there is always a price,
> however
> >> small. Additional complexity, slower speed, or just larger code. We
> should
> >> not make Rails so big that the word "bloated" starts coming to mind.
> >>
> >> Erik
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: John David Galt [mailto:jd...@di...]
> >> Sent: Saturday 11 September 2010 04:32
> >> To: rai...@li...
> >> Subject: [Rails-devel] Rails 1.4 18EU playtest with commentary
> >>
> >> Comments on Rails 1.4, tested with a four player game of 18EU
>  2010-09-09
> >>
> >> General comments:
> >>
> >> *  In the "select game" dialog box, changing to a different game should
> >> not
> >> cause all players to be set back to "none" and the names blanked.
> >>
> >> [EV] Sure. That's a bug to me.
> >>
> >> *  The map should show "Y", where needed, on unbuilt city hexes.  This
> is
> >> a
> >> major annoyance during the start round, because it affects both the
> city's
> >> revenue and the possible shapes of the yellow tile, so not seeing it
> makes
> >> it hard to predict the values of minors.  (Yes, I know, I can find this
> >> out
> >> by mousing-over each one, but that is annoying.)
> >>
> >> [EV] I'm a bit surprised that you consider this an annoyance. For me,
> the
> >> hard and fast rule is that all minor start cities are either preprinted
> >> yellow or Y cities, and vice versa. But it is easy to create an extra
> >> blank
> >> Y city tile, so that's on my list.
> >>
> >> *  The map also ought to show the values of red areas.  (I would treat
> >> each
> >> one as a "tile" with a negative number that gets upgraded by phase
> >> changes.)
> >>
> >> [EV] Creating a separate red tile for each possible revenue value sounds
> >> like overkill to me. Another idea could be to overprint red tiles with
> the
> >> current revenue value. The problem is that such values will look similar
> >> to
> >> tile laying cost.
> >> Talking about "the map" - I would love it if we would have map images
> (as
> >> SVG files). Then we could show any info we would like.
> >>
> >> *  Entering a comment before the first action in the game should be
> >> allowed.
> >>
> >> *  Entering two comments in a row should append, not replace.
> >>
> >> [EV] I leave these two for Stefan.
> >>
> >> *  It would be nice if the Game Status window had a column showing each
> >> player's total income in the last round.  This would act as a reminder
> >> that
> >> the player who is falling furthest behind had better DO SOMETHING! (and
> >> conversely, that the player who is making the most money should probably
> >> not
> >> change the status quo, by buying lots of trains or starting new
> >> companies).
> >>
> >> [EV] Great suggestion. High on my list.
> >>
> >> *  It would be nice if the program could remember (or let you save in a
> >> config file) the locations of every window, so you don't have to move
> them
> >> manual every time you start a game (and often afterward too).  I always
> >> use
> >> these settings.
> >>   Stock market: upper left corner of screen
> >>   "Game Status" tabulation/stock round input: lower left corner of
> screen
> >>   Map/operating round input: upper right corner of screen (and don't
> allow
> >>       the height to self-adjust so it's taller than the screen height
> >> minus
> >>       the Windows menu bar -- it now does so at the start of every OR
> >> until
> >>       there are too few companies to cause it (in my case, 10
> companies).
> >>       The map also moves so it extends about an inch to the right of the
> >>       screen, every time.)
> >>   History/comment window: lower right corner
> >>
> >> [EV] I believe Stefan is already considering this one.
> >>
> >> All of the above apply to all games, except that I believe the 1830 and
> >> 1835
> >> maps do show you where the lettered tiles go.  Due credit: 18EU does
> show
> >> the two "B-V" hexes.
> >>
> >> Start round:
> >>
> >> *  It would be nice to have alternate starts available, such as any
> >>   combination of:
> >>   $400 each to start;
> >>   all starting prices reduced to $50;
> >>   bidding round order 1,2,3,4,4,3,2,1,1,2,3,4,4,3,2.
> >>
> >> [EV] "such as" - where do the possibilities end? However, your
> suggestions
> >> sound like a sensible subset of the infinite universe of possible
> >> alternatives.
> >>
> >> *  "Unlimited tiles" should not be an all-or-nothing setting: there
> should
> >> be a setting to make only #7, #8, and #9 unlimited (this is what the
> rules
> >> say to do in 18EU, 1826, and 1853v2, and probably many other games).
> >>
> >> [EV] I cannot find this in the 18EU rules. However, it's a common
> >> extension,
> >> and I agree that it could be a generic option.
> >>
> >> *  Bids (above the starting value) look the same as the prices of things
> >> you've already bought.  Please change this: it makes it nonobvious who
> >> already owns more companies than others.
> >>
> >> *  There should be some visual indication of which players can still bid
> >> on
> >> the current item.
> >>
> >> *  A player is correctly skipped when an item someone else selected for
> >> bidding would cost more than he has.  But if it's your turn to select an
> >> item and you have less than $100, "Bid" ought to be grayed out and
> isn't.
> >>
> >> [EV] Three sensible UI improvements for the start rounds.
> >>
> >> Operating rounds:
> >>
> >> *  The map should show the reserved hexes controlled by certain minors.
> >> (I don't expect them to be enforced yet, just shown.)
> >>
> >> [EV] Agree. I think there should be a generic configuration option to
> add
> >> any text to any tile.
> >>
> >> *  Please enforce the rule that minors can't lay green tiles.
> >>
> >> [EV] I'm pretty sure that this worked correctly until recently. Stefan,
> I
> >> think to have been working on the tile laying rules - can you please
> >> check?
> >>
> >> *  When no tile lay is legally possible, please skip the tile-lay step.
> >> (Which would mean that after the first couple of rounds, most minors'
> >> tile-
> >> lay step would be skipped, speeding up the game a lot.)
> >>
> >> [EV] This can only be done if the current disconnect between knowing
> about
> >> legal lays (in the UI only) and the round/step management (in the game
> >> engine) has been fixed. Be aware, though, that any additional action
> skips
> >> will make all previous saved files unloadable, insofar these contain
> >> pass/done actions that are now skipped. I'm very reluctant to do add or
> >> remove such steps, as that will (again) invalidate many of my saved
> files
> >> that I use for testing.
> >>
> >> *  When placing tile #581 (green upgrade) in Berlin and trying it both
> >> ways
> >> it will go, the tokens that are already there (#9 and KPEV, which I
> formed
> >> from #7) are shown, respectively, along the SE and NW edges, rather than
> >> the
> >> NE and SW which are the existing connections they must keep.  They move
> to
> >> the correct places once I make the tile lay final, but showing them
> wrong
> >> makes it harder to place the tile correctly.
> >>
> >> [EV] Will look at that. Don't hold your breath - token repositioning on
> >> upgrades is one of the most complex processes we now have.
> >>
> >> *  It would be nice if I were allowed to have the program compute runs
> >> before I decide what tile to lay.  Sometimes a company is so spread out
> it
> >> isn't obvious where its trains are going.  (Of course I can always work
> >> around this by skipping the tile lay step, then "undo".)
> >>
> >> [EV] That's again for Stefan, I think.
> >>
> >> *  When deciding whether to pay, split, or withhold, it would be nice if
> >> the screen showed how much money the company will have after each
> choice.
> >> This isn't always easy to work out in your head, especially if there are
> >> some shares paying dividends into the treasury.  This goes for all
> games.
> >>
> >> [EV] Where should the screen show that? Below each of these buttons?
> >>
> >> *  Please get rid of the pop-up "<company> owns no trains, so revenue is
> >> $0."  Instead, just silently skip the revenue-setting step.
> >>
> >> [EV] Agree.
> >>
> >> *  The column that now reports "Pay out", "Withhold", or "Split" for the
> >> last turn of each company ought to say "$0 income" (or maybe "No run" or
> >> "No train") when that is true, so it doesn't look like the owner chose
> to
> >> withhold.
> >>
> >> [EV] A sensible refinement.
> >>
> >> *  A company's train-buying step is correctly skipped if it has no room
> >> for
> >> another train, but it should also be skipped (that is, "Buy Train"
> should
> >> be grayed out) if the company has $0 and at least one train.  Similarly,
> >> if
> >> a company spends its last dollar on a train (including forced
> purchases),
> >> its train-buying step should immediately end.
> >> (I believe this goes for all games -- or does anyone on this list really
> >> think that any game exists in which a train "purchase" from another
> >> company
> >> for $0 is allowed?  But even if you do, it's explicitly banned in 18EU.)
> >>
> >> [EV] Right, but see my above remark on skipping existing actions.
> >>
> >> *  When it's impossible for the company to buy or sell any treasury
> >> shares,
> >> the TRADING TREASURY SHARES step should be skipped.  (I'm mostly
> thinking
> >> of the situation when all shares of the company are owned by players,
> but
> >> it also applies if the company has no shares in treasury and has too
> >> little
> >> cash to buy one from the bank pool, or there are 5 shares in the bank
> pool
> >> and the company has too little cash to buy one.)  Because of the change
> of
> >> focus, this is a major waste of time, especially in the late game when
> the
> >> only shares not owned by players are those of companies that were never
> >> started.
> >>
> >> [EV] Yes, that makes sense, but see above.
> >>
> >> *  Buying and selling treasury stock works correctly, except one minor
> >> detail: when I mouse-over the "treasury shares" column, the tooltip says
> >> "click to select for buying" (even though it would be selling).
> >>
> >> [EV] OK.
> >>
> >> Stock rounds:
> >>
> >> *  When floating a new company, if I buy until I have 60% and then merge
> >> in
> >> another minor company (to get more than 60% until the next stock round,
> >> which is specifically allowed in the rules) the exchange occurs but the
> >> "Done" button stays grayed out, making it impossible to continue the
> game
> >> without Undoing the exchange.
> >>
> >> [EV] Will look at that bug (if Stefan doesn't beat me)
> >>
> >> *  If I start a company (purchase the president's share) and then Undo
> the
> >> act of forming it, the status window continues to show the company with
> >> the
> >> share price I set.
> >>
> >> [EV] Guess we're missing a state variable here.
> >>
> >> *  When I buy shares from a company's treasury, the amount of money in
> >> that
> >> treasury is usually not updated right away.
> >>
> >> [EV] OK
> >>
> >> Ending:
> >>
> >> *  Please get rid of BOTH pop-ups saying the bank has broken.  Instead,
> >> just change the space on the Game Status window where the amount of
> money
> >> in the bank is normally shown to say "BROKEN", maybe in bright colors.
> >>
> >> [EV] The former is simple, the latter a bit less so, but I agree.
> >>
> >> *  The repeated pop-ups that "count down" to the winning player are even
> >> more annoying.
> >>
> >> [EV] Fully agree. Luckily I can plead innocence here...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> --
> >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances
> >> and start using them to simplify application deployment and
> >> accelerate your shift to cloud computing
> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Rails-devel mailing list
> >> Rai...@li...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances
> >> and start using them to simplify application deployment and
> >> accelerate your shift to cloud computing
> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Rails-devel mailing list
> >> Rai...@li...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances
> > and start using them to simplify application deployment and
> > accelerate your shift to cloud computing
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails-devel mailing list
> > Rai...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances
> and start using them to simplify application deployment and
> accelerate your shift to cloud computing
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Rails-devel mailing list
> Rai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rails-devel
>