pythoncard-users

[Pythoncard-users] fwd: The Pros and Cons of XML

[Kevin A. <al...@se...>]

At some point we are going to support XML, at least for import/export and
possibly the resource format. It will certainly be used for any XML-RPC or
SOAP connectivity, which is probably how PythonCard apps are going to talk
to the rest of the world in a standard way. Even XML gurus will probably
benefit from reading through the paper below.

Anyway, this is one of the better pro/con papers I've seen on XML,
especially considering that the company behind the paper are "XML Industry
Analysts". If you have other links that are relatively well-balanced on the
pluses and minuses of XML, feel free to post them as a reply to this
message.

The Pros and Cons of XML by ZapThink Research
http://www.zapthink.com/reports/proscons.html

HTML version
http://www.zapthink.com/reports/proscons-view.html

ka

RE: [Pythoncard-users] fwd: The Pros and Cons of XML

[Patrick K. O'B. <po...@or...>]

You've got a link the HTML version of the paper, but I'd like a link to the
XML version, preferably DocBook. Thanks. <g,d&r>

---
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech (http://www.orbtech.com)
"I am, therefore I think."

-----Original Message-----
From: pyt...@li...
[mailto:pyt...@li...]On Behalf Of Kevin
Altis
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 1:41 PM
To: pythoncard-Users
Subject: [Pythoncard-users] fwd: The Pros and Cons of XML

At some point we are going to support XML, at least for import/export and
possibly the resource format. It will certainly be used for any XML-RPC or
SOAP connectivity, which is probably how PythonCard apps are going to talk
to the rest of the world in a standard way. Even XML gurus will probably
benefit from reading through the paper below.

Anyway, this is one of the better pro/con papers I've seen on XML,
especially considering that the company behind the paper are "XML Industry
Analysts". If you have other links that are relatively well-balanced on the
pluses and minuses of XML, feel free to post them as a reply to this
message.

The Pros and Cons of XML by ZapThink Research
http://www.zapthink.com/reports/proscons.html

HTML version
http://www.zapthink.com/reports/proscons-view.html

ka


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Pyt...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/pythoncard-users

Re: [Pythoncard-users] fwd: The Pros and Cons of XML

[Skip M. <sk...@po...>]

(apologies if you receive this multiple times - i've been having mail
problems - originally sent 12 Sep 2001 13:50:11)

(I am still having trouble sending to this list.  I originally posted this
note on September 7th but haven't seen it turn up expect as a mail bounce.
In some sense this is simply a test.  My apologies if you're seeing this
message twice.)

    Kevin> At some point we are going to support XML, at least for
    Kevin> import/export and possibly the resource format. It will certainly
    Kevin> be used for any XML-RPC or SOAP connectivity, which is probably
    Kevin> how PythonCard apps are going to talk to the rest of the world in
    Kevin> a standard way.

I think there is an important distinction to make between SOAP and XML-RPC
on the one hand, and things like storing Pythoncard resource files in XML on
the other hand.  From the programmer's standpoint, SOAP and XML-RPC are just
RPC protocols.  I've been using XML-RPC for about three years now, and the
only time I've ever looked at the raw XML was when I was mucking about in
the xmlrpclib.py implementation and screwed something up.  My clients and
servers pass tens of thousands of messages back and forth every day and I
never pay any attention to the XML.  In other words, from the standpoint of
Pythoncard users or developers, SOAP and XML-RPC might as well be using
paper tapes encoded in Morse code, tied to the legs of carrier pigeons to
get the data back and forth.  There are issues of bandwidth usage and the
costs to marshal and unmarshal data with SOAP and XML-RPC, but they aren't
insurmountable, and really only come into play if you are transferring lots
of data.  (They would often be problems with other RPC encodings as well.)

The October issue of WebTechniques magazine (not available online until
September 12) has an article about SOAP.  It posts the obligatory XML for a
simple request and response.  No code was posted (that I recall) showing how
to make a SOAP call from Perl or Python.  In my mind, by dwelling on the
transport encoding the article completely misses the point of using SOAP (or
XML-RPC or ORBit or Fnorb or ...), which is that for the application
programmer, they make RPC programming drop dead easy.

All the pros and cons of XML will only come into play when you have to
invent an XML encoding for, say, Pythoncard resource data.  I would only
worry about most of the Pros and Cons listed in the Zapthink article in that
light.

All that said, the Zapthink article does look like a good contrast of the
pros and cons of XML.

-- 
Skip Montanaro (sk...@po...)
http://www.mojam.com/
http://www.musi-cal.com/

RE: [Pythoncard-users] fwd: The Pros and Cons of XML

[Kevin A. <al...@se...>]

I basically agree with what Skip had to say below. Just for reference sake,
here are some more XML-RPC and SOAP links for those that want to investigate
further.

A Busy Developer's Guide to SOAP 1.1
http://www.soapware.org/bdg

XML-RPC Home Page
http://www.xmlrpc.com/
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pyt...@li...
> [mailto:pyt...@li...]On Behalf Of Skip
> Montanaro
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 11:54 AM
> To: pyt...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Pythoncard-users] fwd: The Pros and Cons of XML
>
>
>
> (apologies if you receive this multiple times - i've been having mail
> problems - originally sent 12 Sep 2001 13:50:11)
>
> (I am still having trouble sending to this list.  I originally posted this
> note on September 7th but haven't seen it turn up expect as a mail bounce.
> In some sense this is simply a test.  My apologies if you're seeing this
> message twice.)
>
>     Kevin> At some point we are going to support XML, at least for
>     Kevin> import/export and possibly the resource format. It
> will certainly
>     Kevin> be used for any XML-RPC or SOAP connectivity, which is probably
>     Kevin> how PythonCard apps are going to talk to the rest of
> the world in
>     Kevin> a standard way.
>
> I think there is an important distinction to make between SOAP and XML-RPC
> on the one hand, and things like storing Pythoncard resource
> files in XML on
> the other hand.  From the programmer's standpoint, SOAP and
> XML-RPC are just
> RPC protocols.  I've been using XML-RPC for about three years now, and the
> only time I've ever looked at the raw XML was when I was mucking about in
> the xmlrpclib.py implementation and screwed something up.  My clients and
> servers pass tens of thousands of messages back and forth every day and I
> never pay any attention to the XML.  In other words, from the
> standpoint of
> Pythoncard users or developers, SOAP and XML-RPC might as well be using
> paper tapes encoded in Morse code, tied to the legs of carrier pigeons to
> get the data back and forth.  There are issues of bandwidth usage and the
> costs to marshal and unmarshal data with SOAP and XML-RPC, but they aren't
> insurmountable, and really only come into play if you are
> transferring lots
> of data.  (They would often be problems with other RPC encodings as well.)
>
> The October issue of WebTechniques magazine (not available online until
> September 12) has an article about SOAP.  It posts the obligatory
> XML for a
> simple request and response.  No code was posted (that I recall)
> showing how
> to make a SOAP call from Perl or Python.  In my mind, by dwelling on the
> transport encoding the article completely misses the point of
> using SOAP (or
> XML-RPC or ORBit or Fnorb or ...), which is that for the application
> programmer, they make RPC programming drop dead easy.
>
> All the pros and cons of XML will only come into play when you have to
> invent an XML encoding for, say, Pythoncard resource data.  I would only
> worry about most of the Pros and Cons listed in the Zapthink
> article in that
> light.
>
> All that said, the Zapthink article does look like a good contrast of the
> pros and cons of XML.
>
> --
> Skip Montanaro (sk...@po...)
> http://www.mojam.com/
> http://www.musi-cal.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pythoncard-users mailing list
> Pyt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/pythoncard-users
>

RE: [Pythoncard-users] fwd: The Pros and Cons of XML

[Kevin A. <al...@se...>]

I hit the send key too soon on the first post...

I basically agree with what Skip had to say below. Just for reference sake,
here are some more XML-RPC and SOAP links for those that want to investigate
further.

A Busy Developer's Guide to SOAP 1.1
http://www.soapware.org/bdg

SoapWare.Org
http://www.soapware.org/

XML-RPC Home Page
http://www.xmlrpc.com/

Most of the data storage and resource work I'll be experimenting with in the
next month or so will continue to use Python data types like dictionaries
and lists, so I won't be looking at XML much until after that.

I would still appreciate it if someone that knows the Python XML libraries
could fix the XML bugs in the SourceForgeTracker sample (see the readme and
comments in the SourceForgeTracker.py file for more info or just post your
questions to the list.

ka

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pyt...@li...
> [mailto:pyt...@li...]On Behalf Of Skip
> Montanaro
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 11:54 AM
> To: pyt...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Pythoncard-users] fwd: The Pros and Cons of XML
>
>
>
> (apologies if you receive this multiple times - i've been having mail
> problems - originally sent 12 Sep 2001 13:50:11)
>
> (I am still having trouble sending to this list.  I originally posted this
> note on September 7th but haven't seen it turn up expect as a mail bounce.
> In some sense this is simply a test.  My apologies if you're seeing this
> message twice.)
>
>     Kevin> At some point we are going to support XML, at least for
>     Kevin> import/export and possibly the resource format. It
> will certainly
>     Kevin> be used for any XML-RPC or SOAP connectivity, which is probably
>     Kevin> how PythonCard apps are going to talk to the rest of
> the world in
>     Kevin> a standard way.
>
> I think there is an important distinction to make between SOAP and XML-RPC
> on the one hand, and things like storing Pythoncard resource
> files in XML on
> the other hand.  From the programmer's standpoint, SOAP and
> XML-RPC are just
> RPC protocols.  I've been using XML-RPC for about three years now, and the
> only time I've ever looked at the raw XML was when I was mucking about in
> the xmlrpclib.py implementation and screwed something up.  My clients and
> servers pass tens of thousands of messages back and forth every day and I
> never pay any attention to the XML.  In other words, from the
> standpoint of
> Pythoncard users or developers, SOAP and XML-RPC might as well be using
> paper tapes encoded in Morse code, tied to the legs of carrier pigeons to
> get the data back and forth.  There are issues of bandwidth usage and the
> costs to marshal and unmarshal data with SOAP and XML-RPC, but they aren't
> insurmountable, and really only come into play if you are
> transferring lots
> of data.  (They would often be problems with other RPC encodings as well.)
>
> The October issue of WebTechniques magazine (not available online until
> September 12) has an article about SOAP.  It posts the obligatory
> XML for a
> simple request and response.  No code was posted (that I recall)
> showing how
> to make a SOAP call from Perl or Python.  In my mind, by dwelling on the
> transport encoding the article completely misses the point of
> using SOAP (or
> XML-RPC or ORBit or Fnorb or ...), which is that for the application
> programmer, they make RPC programming drop dead easy.
>
> All the pros and cons of XML will only come into play when you have to
> invent an XML encoding for, say, Pythoncard resource data.  I would only
> worry about most of the Pros and Cons listed in the Zapthink
> article in that
> light.
>
> All that said, the Zapthink article does look like a good contrast of the
> pros and cons of XML.
>
> --
> Skip Montanaro (sk...@po...)
> http://www.mojam.com/
> http://www.musi-cal.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pythoncard-users mailing list
> Pyt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/pythoncard-users
>