pythoncard-users

[Pythoncard-users] Boa as an IDE for PythonCard?

[Kevin A. <al...@se...>]

A couple of weeks ago I contacted Riaan Booysen about his IDE for wxPython
called Boa. I was interested in using his frame designer and property editor
code in PythonCard, since those parts of the Boa UI seemed to work pretty
well, but I hadn't looked at his code yet.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I ended up writing my own code. The
issue we left unresolved was whether Boa should support editing PythonCard
apps, in particular the .rsrc.py files, but it could also act as a full IDE
for PythonCard. Suffice it to say that adding this support is non-trivial
and Riaan won't be doing it, someone on the PythonCard team would have to
pursue it.

Another issue is that Riaan would need to grant use to us with his modifed
GPL, or MPL as he calls it. From an earlier email:

Kevin: Anyway, I would like to give it a shot, but I will not be locked into
the GPL.

Riaan: That's why I mentioned the MPL, if there was some sort of
collaboration, I could relicense those core Boa files under the MPL
which means those core files are 'like' GPL files (you have the
make changes to those files available for free) but with the MPL
you can integrate very easily to the core with code from any license.
It only 'infects' things in the core. Not things that just use or
integrate with it.

Boa is at http://sourceforge.net/projects/boa-constructor/

What I would like to know is whether anyone interested in PythonCard is
using Boa or whether you think you would be interested in an IDE environment
like Boa that integrates Zope support, cvs, editing, a shell, and other
features [Now is the time for you to speak up Patrick  ;-)]

ka

Re: [Pythoncard-users] Boa as an IDE for PythonCard?

[Ronald D S. <rd...@ea...>]

Well, I am experimenting with Boa Constructor, and the more I learn about wxPython, the more I like Boa and the more usable I find
it to be. So, I would be happy to see Boa used as an IDE for PythonCard. One could do a lot worse.

Having said that, I still think Boa is a bit over-complex. It would be nice to have an IDE for PythonCard that was simpler but still
as powerful, but I guess you can't have everything ;-))).

My ideal IDE for PythonCard would include a programmable,  hypertext cardfile metaphor; but then I'm really dreaming and I'm not
sure I know what I am even talking about ;-))).

But it would sure be nice to use any parts of Boa that are possible. Boa is impressive and represents an awful lot of work.

Here's hoping the license issues don't get in the way.

Ron Stephens
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Altis" <al...@se...>
To: "pythoncard-Users" <pyt...@li...>
Cc: <riaan@e.co.za>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 2:56 PM
Subject: [Pythoncard-users] Boa as an IDE for PythonCard?


> A couple of weeks ago I contacted Riaan Booysen about his IDE for wxPython
> called Boa. I was interested in using his frame designer and property editor
> code in PythonCard, since those parts of the Boa UI seemed to work pretty
> well, but I hadn't looked at his code yet.
>
> Anyway, to make a long story short, I ended up writing my own code. The
> issue we left unresolved was whether Boa should support editing PythonCard
> apps, in particular the .rsrc.py files, but it could also act as a full IDE
> for PythonCard. Suffice it to say that adding this support is non-trivial
> and Riaan won't be doing it, someone on the PythonCard team would have to
> pursue it.
>
> Another issue is that Riaan would need to grant use to us with his modifed
> GPL, or MPL as he calls it. From an earlier email:
>
> Kevin: Anyway, I would like to give it a shot, but I will not be locked into
> the GPL.
>
> Riaan: That's why I mentioned the MPL, if there was some sort of
> collaboration, I could relicense those core Boa files under the MPL
> which means those core files are 'like' GPL files (you have the
> make changes to those files available for free) but with the MPL
> you can integrate very easily to the core with code from any license.
> It only 'infects' things in the core. Not things that just use or
> integrate with it.
>
> Boa is at http://sourceforge.net/projects/boa-constructor/
>
> What I would like to know is whether anyone interested in PythonCard is
> using Boa or whether you think you would be interested in an IDE environment
> like Boa that integrates Zope support, cvs, editing, a shell, and other
> features [Now is the time for you to speak up Patrick  ;-)]
>
> ka
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pythoncard-users mailing list
> Pyt...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/pythoncard-users

RE: [Pythoncard-users] Boa as an IDE for PythonCard?

[Patrick K. O'B. <po...@or...>]

I guess I need to reply to this. It's no secret that I'm a big fan of Boa. I
think it is a great tool and I enjoy using it every day for my own Python
development. I also think there is some potential synergy between Boa and
PythonCard. Now is probably not the time to explore this in great detail.
Both projects need a little more time to settle down. But this is something
I will keep in mind as I use both tools, and if anyone else is interested
they can join in the exploration.

---
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech (http://www.orbtech.com)
"I am, therefore I think."

-----Original Message-----
From: pyt...@li...
[mailto:pyt...@li...]On Behalf Of Kevin
Altis
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 1:56 PM
To: pythoncard-Users
Cc: riaan@e.co.za
Subject: [Pythoncard-users] Boa as an IDE for PythonCard?

A couple of weeks ago I contacted Riaan Booysen about his IDE for wxPython
called Boa. I was interested in using his frame designer and property editor
code in PythonCard, since those parts of the Boa UI seemed to work pretty
well, but I hadn't looked at his code yet.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I ended up writing my own code. The
issue we left unresolved was whether Boa should support editing PythonCard
apps, in particular the .rsrc.py files, but it could also act as a full IDE
for PythonCard. Suffice it to say that adding this support is non-trivial
and Riaan won't be doing it, someone on the PythonCard team would have to
pursue it.

Another issue is that Riaan would need to grant use to us with his modifed
GPL, or MPL as he calls it. From an earlier email:

Kevin: Anyway, I would like to give it a shot, but I will not be locked into
the GPL.

Riaan: That's why I mentioned the MPL, if there was some sort of
collaboration, I could relicense those core Boa files under the MPL
which means those core files are 'like' GPL files (you have the
make changes to those files available for free) but with the MPL
you can integrate very easily to the core with code from any license.
It only 'infects' things in the core. Not things that just use or
integrate with it.

Boa is at http://sourceforge.net/projects/boa-constructor/

What I would like to know is whether anyone interested in PythonCard is
using Boa or whether you think you would be interested in an IDE environment
like Boa that integrates Zope support, cvs, editing, a shell, and other
features [Now is the time for you to speak up Patrick  ;-)]

ka


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Pythoncard-users mailing list
Pyt...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/pythoncard-users

Re: [Pythoncard-users] Boa as an IDE for PythonCard?

[Steven D. A. <st...@ne...>]

Hi Kevin,

On Tuesday, September 04, 2001, at 2:56:12 PM, you wrote:

KA> Kevin: Anyway, I would like to give it a shot, but I will not be
KA> locked into the GPL.

KA> Riaan: That's why I mentioned the MPL, if there was some sort of
KA> collaboration, I could relicense those core Boa files under the MPL
KA> which means those core files are 'like' GPL files (you have the
KA> make changes to those files available for free) but with the MPL
KA> you can integrate very easily to the core with code from any license.
KA> It only 'infects' things in the core. Not things that just use or
KA> integrate with it.

So this sounds much like the LGPL.  The core itself is open-source and
must remain so -- any modifications must be released.  But projects
that are built with it would not be GPL or MPL, nor would tools that
merely work with it or link it.  Is that the basic idea?

On another note, I don't really like Riann's approach of using Python
code itself to generate interfaces.  It seems a lot more general to
use some flavor of XML to describe interfaces, and sharply distinguish
this from the user code.  This kind of separation/abstraction allows
one to easily modify the way interface elements work in one's code
without worrying about the IDE overwriting one's changes or making
other undesirable changes.  To put the policy in a sentence: anything
that is automatically generated by the IDE should not be modified by
the user (this would no doubt include the final code/binary as well as
interface template files).

Has anyone else experienced this kind of issue with Boa (or maybe
found a workaround that obviates it as a problem)?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven D. Arnold                                  st...@ne...
AIM: abraxan                                               ICQ: 73804392
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

RE: [Pythoncard-users] Boa as an IDE for PythonCard?

[Patrick K. O'B. <po...@or...>]

Riaan, the primary Boa developer, has indicated that it would be quite
possible for Boa to work with some kind of resource file, rather than
generating all the code directly. He says the framework is not as
specialized as most people think it is. The Zope interaction is an example
of how the framework can support other development modes. I haven't delved
into the details enough to express my own opinion.

As far as the code generation part goes, there is a clear boundary between
the generated methods that Boa "owns" and the custom coded methods that you
own. As long as you don't try to modify the generated methods there is no
problem. That is the nature of a code generator. Boa should have enough
hooks to let you add whatever behavior your need without risk of
modification by the code generator. If not, complain to Riaan. He is
incredibly responsive to user demands, imo.

That said, I know Kevin in none too fond of code generators in general, and
I respect his point of view. Anything that generates code has its strengths
and its weaknesses. At the same time, it is quite possible the we will see
the day when some of these same complaints are levied against the PythonCard
Resource Editor (or whatever it evolves into). <wink>

---
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech (http://www.orbtech.com)
"I am, therefore I think."

-----Original Message-----
From: pyt...@li...
[mailto:pyt...@li...]On Behalf Of Steven D.
Arnold
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 8:59 PM
To: Kevin Altis
Cc: pythoncard-Users; riaan@e.co.za
Subject: Re: [Pythoncard-users] Boa as an IDE for PythonCard?

<license stuff snipped>

On another note, I don't really like Riann's approach of using Python
code itself to generate interfaces.  It seems a lot more general to
use some flavor of XML to describe interfaces, and sharply distinguish
this from the user code.  This kind of separation/abstraction allows
one to easily modify the way interface elements work in one's code
without worrying about the IDE overwriting one's changes or making
other undesirable changes.  To put the policy in a sentence: anything
that is automatically generated by the IDE should not be modified by
the user (this would no doubt include the final code/binary as well as
interface template files).

Has anyone else experienced this kind of issue with Boa (or maybe
found a workaround that obviates it as a problem)?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven D. Arnold                                  st...@ne...
AIM: abraxan                                               ICQ: 73804392
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~