pyobjc-dev — CVS commit notices go here

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] depythonify_c_value rejects non-ascii, non-unicode strings

[Marc-Antoine P. <map...@ac...>]

> The simple fact of the matter is that NSString is the equivalent to 
> python's unicode.  If you unicode('something-with-latin-1') then you 
> will get an exception.  There is no reason whatsoever to put arbitrary 
> data in a NSString unless you know its encoding.

That sentence agrees with my point the second time: What if I _do_ know 
the encoding, and I want to tell the bridge about it?
Your point is that I should convert strings to unicode before the 
bridge; my point is that I may be calling the bridge in quite a few 
places, and converting there may not be practical.
Whereas if the bridge had a simple API, viz.
PyObjC.setStringEncoding(str)
PyObjC.getStringEncoding()
getting and setting a variable which defaults to the system's default 
encoding,
then it would be easy to still use (single-byte) strings in Python if 
so desired (again, do realize that one is often dealing with someone 
else's code, and reengineering it is not always practical.)

> If you want/need to exchange arbitrary data you're going to have to 
> explicitly put it in NSData.

That would be valid for arbitrary data; but strings of a _known_ 
encoding are not arbitrary data.

> I would almost vote to *disable* the str<->NSString bridge in PyObjC, 
> or make it bridge NSData instead, but that would just be terribly 
> inconvenient for many people.

Indeed.

Marc-Antoine Parent

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] depythonify_c_value rejects non-ascii, non-unicode strings

[Bob I. <bo...@re...>]

On Jan 21, 2004, at 12:38 PM, Ronald Oussoren wrote:

>
> On 21 jan 2004, at 18:20, Marc-Antoine Parent wrote:
> [...]
>> So let me then make a plea for an API so that a PyObjC program can 
>> tell the bridge to use an encoding other than the system default, if 
>> specified, even if the default behaviour remains identical, i.e. 
>> throw exceptions upon non-ascii strings.
>
> I don't like introducing global switches like this, libraries may 
> modify the switch and change the behaviour of other code.
>
> Too bad that sitecustomize.py cannot in the same directory as a script 
> (dirname(sys.argv[0] is added after site.py finishes). BTW. does 
> anyone know why sys.setdefaultencoding is removed in site.py? E.g. why 
> is it good that users cannot change the default encoding after the 
> interpreter has initialized?

sys.setdefaultencoding is probably removed in site.py for the same 
reason you don't like global switches.. someone could 
sys.setdefaultencoding in a module that you use, for example.

-bob

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] depythonify_c_value rejects non-ascii, non-unicode strings

[Ronald O. <ous...@ci...>]

On 21 jan 2004, at 18:20, Marc-Antoine Parent wrote:
[...]
> So let me then make a plea for an API so that a PyObjC program can 
> tell the bridge to use an encoding other than the system default, if 
> specified, even if the default behaviour remains identical, i.e. throw 
> exceptions upon non-ascii strings.

I don't like introducing global switches like this, libraries may 
modify the switch and change the behaviour of other code.

Too bad that sitecustomize.py cannot in the same directory as a script 
(dirname(sys.argv[0] is added after site.py finishes). BTW. does anyone 
know why sys.setdefaultencoding is removed in site.py? E.g. why is it 
good that users cannot change the default encoding after the 
interpreter has initialized?

> That way, only a program that knows what it is doing will modify the 
> behaviour, and no data will be lost by default; but a program that has 
> good architectural reasons to do so might still use another encoding 
> internally.

Unicode should be good enough for this. The strings used by Cocoa are 
Unicode strings there's not much you can do about this.

Ronald

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] depythonify_c_value rejects non-ascii, non-unicode strings

[Bob I. <bo...@re...>]

On Jan 21, 2004, at 12:20 PM, Marc-Antoine Parent wrote:

>> We had this (short) discussion before:
>> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=6595522
>
> Thank you for pointing it out; I had not seen it.
>
>> I've come to the conclusion that if the Python program doesn't handle 
>> all text as unicode, then it's broken.  This is really just PyObjC 
>> telling you to fix your code.
>
> I only partially agree. It is true that internally, a Python program 
> should use unicode all the way; but nobody should force me to use 
> unicode on the output. The case I am raising is that I have a Python 
> program with Latin-1 output, which is picked up by another Python 
> program, which is encoding-agnostic, and transfers it to the bridge. 
> The two programs are totally disconnected, except through I/O, and 
> that I/O may use another encoding.
>
> Now, maybe what you are saying amounts to the suggestion that the 
> second program should know (or be told) about the encoding of the 
> first program's output; and that makes sense. However, there may be 
> cases, such as mine, where it makes sense for the Python program to 
> use encoded (non-unicode) data internally, and not to care about it, 
> and (supposing I know the encoding) I should not have to convert to 
> unicode before calling the bridge at every point.
> (Granted, in this case, we could convert to unicode at the interface 
> between both programs, but that may not always be the case...)
> So let me then make a plea for an API so that a PyObjC program can 
> tell the bridge to use an encoding other than the system default, if 
> specified, even if the default behaviour remains identical, i.e. throw 
> exceptions upon non-ascii strings.
> That way, only a program that knows what it is doing will modify the 
> behaviour, and no data will be lost by default; but a program that has 
> good architectural reasons to do so might still use another encoding 
> internally.

The simple fact of the matter is that NSString is the equivalent to 
python's unicode.  If you unicode('something-with-latin-1') then you 
will get an exception.  There is no reason whatsoever to put arbitrary 
data in a NSString unless you know its encoding.

If you want/need to exchange arbitrary data you're going to have to 
explicitly put it in NSData.  I would almost vote to *disable* the 
str<->NSString bridge in PyObjC, or make it bridge NSData instead, but 
that would just be terribly inconvenient for many people.

-bob

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] depythonify_c_value rejects non-ascii, non-unicode strings

[Marc-Antoine P. <map...@ac...>]

> We had this (short) discussion before:
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=6595522

Thank you for pointing it out; I had not seen it.

> I've come to the conclusion that if the Python program doesn't handle 
> all text as unicode, then it's broken.  This is really just PyObjC 
> telling you to fix your code.

I only partially agree. It is true that internally, a Python program 
should use unicode all the way; but nobody should force me to use 
unicode on the output. The case I am raising is that I have a Python 
program with Latin-1 output, which is picked up by another Python 
program, which is encoding-agnostic, and transfers it to the bridge. 
The two programs are totally disconnected, except through I/O, and that 
I/O may use another encoding.

Now, maybe what you are saying amounts to the suggestion that the 
second program should know (or be told) about the encoding of the first 
program's output; and that makes sense. However, there may be cases, 
such as mine, where it makes sense for the Python program to use 
encoded (non-unicode) data internally, and not to care about it, and 
(supposing I know the encoding) I should not have to convert to unicode 
before calling the bridge at every point.
(Granted, in this case, we could convert to unicode at the interface 
between both programs, but that may not always be the case...)
So let me then make a plea for an API so that a PyObjC program can tell 
the bridge to use an encoding other than the system default, if 
specified, even if the default behaviour remains identical, i.e. throw 
exceptions upon non-ascii strings.
That way, only a program that knows what it is doing will modify the 
behaviour, and no data will be lost by default; but a program that has 
good architectural reasons to do so might still use another encoding 
internally.

Marc-Antoine Parent

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] depythonify_c_value rejects non-ascii, non-unicode strings

[Bob I. <bo...@re...>]

On Jan 21, 2004, at 11:24 AM, Marc-Antoine Parent wrote:

> I am writing some Python code that has to output Latin-1 text.
> Some of that output makes its way through other (python) code to a 
> text widget through insertText_. The other code does not know about my 
> encoding choice, as it is not my code, but Glenn Andreas' PyOxide IDE; 
> it should not know about encoding. So it simply passes along my 
> Latin-1 strings to the insertText_ method of a text widget, where the 
> PyObjC bridge tries to make it into a NSString.

We had this (short) discussion before:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=6595522

I've come to the conclusion that if the Python program doesn't handle 
all text as unicode, then it's broken.  This is really just PyObjC 
telling you to fix your code.

Here's some important snippets that helped me come to this conclusion:

[Just van Rossum]
  Strongly disagree. This leads to silent errors, possibly even data 
loss.
  You _have_ to know the encoding, and you _have_ to deal with it. If
  there's no way you can know the encoding, you have to explicitly tell
  which encoding or behavior to use.

  Btw. it's not so much PyObjC's behavior, but Python's default str ->
  unicode coercion behavior. Perhaps it's "fixable" in the bridge, but I
  think it's a bad idea to deviate from Python's behavior (in addition to
  that I find it a bad idea to begin with).

[Ronald Oussoren]
  BTW. You should convert all input to unicode instead of waiting for
  problems with the implicit conversion to unicode that is performed by
  PyObjC. You're more likely to know the right encoding while reading the
  data.

-bob

[Pyobjc-dev] depythonify_c_value rejects non-ascii, non-unicode strings

[Marc-Antoine P. <map...@ac...>]

Good day, all!

I am writing some Python code that has to output Latin-1 text.
Some of that output makes its way through other (python) code to a text 
widget through insertText_. The other code does not know about my 
encoding choice, as it is not my code, but Glenn Andreas' PyOxide IDE; 
it should not know about encoding. So it simply passes along my Latin-1 
strings to the insertText_ method of a text widget, where the PyObjC 
bridge tries to make it into a NSString.

In objc_support.c, in  int depythonify_c_value (const char *type, 
PyObject *argument, void *datum)
We have the following code
(currently around line 1300:)
			as_unicode = PyUnicode_Decode(
				strval,
				len,
				PyUnicode_GetDefaultEncoding(),
				"strict");
			if (as_unicode == NULL) {
				PyErr_Format(PyExc_UnicodeError,
					"depythonifying 'id', got "
					"a string with a non-default "
					"encoding");
				return -1;
			}
Now, it turns out that the DefaultEncoding is ascii, unless specified 
otherwise in PyUnicode_SetDefaultEncoding....
(from 
/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Headers/unicodeobject.h)
Now, that means that in many cases, I get the immediately following 
error and no output at all.

It is fairly easy to set the default encoding at startup (thanks to 
Glenn for pointing this out to me) using 
sys.setdefaultencoding('iso-8859-1') in a sitecustomize.py.
However, this can only be done at Python startup, and I fear many users 
of the bridge may not know about this limitation.
I propose that the PyObjC bridge use a less restrictive encoding than 
the current (bizarre) platform default, so as to allow Python to output 
encoded text to Cocoa widgets.
(Maybe the bridge should have a hook to set the platforn default when 
the Python subsystem is started?)
I suggest Latin 1, as it is the most common encoding, and the one most 
likely to be used by most (unix-written) Python code; even if the 
python code uses another encoding, as Latin-1 lets bytes pass through 
identically to widgets, if the user sees gibbersih it will be familiar 
gibberish. But I am sure a case could be made for mac-roman as well.
Another solution (Glenn's suggestion) is to at least not decode it 
'strict'ly, using 'ignore' or at worst 'replace' to allow some of the 
text at least to reach the user...

Whatever the correct solution, I feel that the current situation 
(rejecting any encoded non-ascii text) is overly restrictive.

Thank you for your attention,
Marc-Antoine Parent

[Pyobjc-dev] OpenGroupware.org

[Bob I. <bo...@re...>]

I just came across this:
	http://www.opengroupware.org/

It's a groupware server written for GNUStep.  The core frameworks seem 
to be portable to OS X, however the project itself is not fully 
portable yet (gnustep-db, etc):
	http://www.opengroupware.org/en/projects/macosx/index.html

Anyways, I'm mentioning this because it'd be a great reason to make 
PyObjC/GNUStep work well, because it could be used as an extension that 
makes it easy to add new features for OGo, leverage existing Python 
libraries, etc.

-bob

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Re: [Pyobjc-dev] Where's method-imp.h?

[Ronald O. <ous...@ci...>]

On 17 jan 2004, at 7:29, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> Did you forget to check something in, Ronald?

Sorry about that. They (there's also a method-imp.m) should be in now.

Ronald

[Pyobjc-dev] Where's method-imp.h?

[Bob I. <bo...@re...>]

Did you forget to check something in, Ronald?

[crack:pyobjc/Modules/objc] bob% cvs diff -r 1.52 -r 1.53 pyobjc.h
Index: pyobjc.h
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/pyobjc/pyobjc/Modules/objc/pyobjc.h,v
retrieving revision 1.52
retrieving revision 1.53
diff -r1.52 -r1.53
45a46
 > #include "method-imp.h"

There is no method-imp.h :(

-bob

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] Cocoa Bindings use with PyObjC

[b.bum <bb...@ma...>]

On Jan 16, 2004, at 9:03 AM, Jon Israelson wrote:
> Let me know if this is not the right forum for posting this type of
> question...
>
> I've got two questions:
>
> 1.  Is the use of Bindings and the associated NSController-based  
> classes
> that were introduced in 10.3 supported by PyObjC?

Yes.   There is one known bug.

> 2.  If supported, are there any sample applications that demonstrate
> this available?

There are quite a number, actually.   WebServicesTool w/Twisted & the  
Controller Layer is probably the most complete example.

> I've been trying to build the Currency Converter with Bindings example
> app found here
> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ 
> CocoaBindings/
> index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/10000167i, but have been encountering
> seg-faults when the app loads.  The app ran fine until I established  
> the
> bindings between the NSObjectController and my Model class.  Thanks in
> advance for your help.

If you are seeing an infinite loop, that is the known bug.   I believe  
Ronald has a fix committed.   Have you built PyObjC from the CVS  
repository (a really good idea anyway as many things have been fixed or  
changed).

b.bum

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] Cocoa Bindings use with PyObjC

[Bob I. <bo...@re...>]

On Jan 16, 2004, at 12:03 PM, Jon Israelson wrote:

> Let me know if this is not the right forum for posting this type of
> question...
>
> I've got two questions:
>
> 1.  Is the use of Bindings and the associated NSController-based  
> classes
> that were introduced in 10.3 supported by PyObjC?

Yes, but you probably want to use CVS head.

> 2.  If supported, are there any sample applications that demonstrate
> this available?

There's a version of WebServicesTool that uses bindings (called  
controller layer in the example), but it requires Twisted.  We should,  
but don't, have an example that only shows bindings.

> I've been trying to build the Currency Converter with Bindings example
> app found here
> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ 
> CocoaBindings/
> index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/10000167i, but have been encountering
> seg-faults when the app loads.  The app ran fine until I established  
> the
> bindings between the NSObjectController and my Model class.  Thanks in
> advance for your help.

How about some code?

-bob

[Pyobjc-dev] Cocoa Bindings use with PyObjC

[Jon I. <JIs...@na...>]

Let me know if this is not the right forum for posting this type of
question...

I've got two questions:

1.  Is the use of Bindings and the associated NSController-based classes
that were introduced in 10.3 supported by PyObjC?

2.  If supported, are there any sample applications that demonstrate
this available?

I've been trying to build the Currency Converter with Bindings example
app found here
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/CocoaBindings/
index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/10000167i, but have been encountering
seg-faults when the app loads.  The app ran fine until I established the
bindings between the NSObjectController and my Model class.  Thanks in
advance for your help.

Jon

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Re: [Pyobjc-dev] release time?

[Ronald O. <ous...@ci...>]

On 13 jan 2004, at 1:18, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> It's been three months since we've had a release.  There's been a lot 
> of good things since 1.0, I think we should gear up for a 1.1 release.
>
> Thoughts?

I agree.

The most important missing feature for a 1.1 release is the installer 
package for Panther, and that won't write itself (it's been on my TODO 
list since before the release of Panther). I have a semi-functional 
rewrite of Scripts/buildpkg.py lying around, but we should probably 
just do something crude for the 1.1 release.

*After* the 1.1 release we should focus on cleaning up the release 
scripts.

Ronald

[Pyobjc-dev] release time?

[Bob I. <bo...@re...>]

It's been three months since we've had a release.  There's been a lot 
of good things since 1.0, I think we should gear up for a 1.1 release.

Thoughts?

-bob

[Pyobjc-dev] Documentation submission...

[Jiva D. <ji...@de...>]

I would like to respectfully submit the following  
clarification/documentation for the docs page on  
pyobjc.sourceforge.net.  (Credit to bbum for the basics, all I am  
adding is some example code to make it clear.)

---------

  Instantiating Python Classes from Obj-C

First, follow these  
instructions:http://pyobjc.sourceforge.net/doc/ 
extending_objc_with_python.php to add python to your PyObjC app.

Ok, that's the hard part. From here, everything is easy.  Once you have  
imported your Python class, you can do this:

  @class MyPythonClass

  @implementation MyObjCClassCallingMyPythonClass

  -(void)aMethod
  {
     id myPythonObj = [[MyPythonClass alloc] init];
     [myPythonObj someMethodInPython];
  }

  @end

Assuming you have a "MyPythonClass" defined in a python module in your  
resources directory.

What this means, is basically PyObjC magically does it for you. Nothing  
else is needed.

Now this will all work, and as long as you don't mind warnings when  
compiling... this is great. But, being obsessive about such things, we  
probably want to get rid of the compile warnings we're getting.

To solve this problem, use an abstract superclass implemented in  
Objective-C (a class that simply declares all the methods where the  
implementation is stubbed out) and a concrete subclass implemented in  
Python. To the abstract superclass-- the objc class-- add a factory  
method that instantiates and returns the concrete subclass.

So in other words to make Obj-C not complain about your undefined  
methods, you need to create an abstract superclass with a constructor  
that looks something like this:

  -(id)init
  {
      self = [[MyPythonClass alloc] init];

      return self;
  }

Or something along those lines.

With this code, you should be able to instantiate your abstract  
superclass and get everything you need with no warnings!

Viola!
--
Jiva DeVoe
jiva at devoesquared.com
http://www.devoesquared.com

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Re: [Pyobjc-dev] problem with launching pdf2tiff demo script

[Dinu G. <gh...@da...>]

Bob Ippolito:

>> As Ronald mentioned, it may work on GNUStep.
>
> I think GNUStep uses a version of Display PostScript, not Display PDF. 
>  I wouldn't be so sure that its NSImage (or whatever pdf2tiff uses) is 
> any good at loading PDFs.  If you want to rasterize PDFs, you should 
> look into Ghostscript ( http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/ ) or something 
> of that nature.

Sorry for dropping in so late... If Bastien ia talking about the
pdf2tiff I wrote: yes it's using NSImage and NSPDFImageRep. It
also says pretty clearly (except on the command line) that it
works on OS X only.

As far as I remember, on NeXTSTEP there was no support for PDF,
and surely it didn't have Display PDF, but I think GNUstep does
actually want to mimick the parts of Cocoa which were not avail-
able in NS, too, doesn't it?

Well, if you find such a statement, please let me know. All I've
found is this (searching for GNUstep and NSPDFImageRep):
http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/discuss-gnustep/2003-01/msg00290.html

Concerning Ghostscript: whenever I'm trying to use it I get very
quickly turned off by its command-line option universe before
I get anything done with it...

Dinu

--
Dinu C. Gherman - http://python.net/~gherman/pdf2tiff.html
......................................................................
"The best way to predict the future is to invent it." (Alan Kay)

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] import framework for newbie

[Wezzy <we...@ya...>]

Il giorno 05/gen/04, alle 18:20, Bob Ippolito ha scritto:

>
> Do you mean:
>
> import objc
> objc.loadBundle("WebKit",globals(),bundle_path="/System/Library/ 
> Frameworks/WebKit.framework")
> del objc
>
ops my error
>
> You probably want:
>
> import WebKit
> wb = WebKit.WebView.alloc().init()
>
>

It's the same:
 >>> wb = WebKit.WebView.alloc().init()
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'WebView'

>
> You shouldn't be getting that particular error.
> What version of PyObjC and OS X are you using?

1.0 on Mac Os X 10.3.2

> I'm using a month old CVS version of PyObjC (Dec 03 2003) on OS X  
> 10.3.2 (7D24).

Now i download the cvs version

>   Are you sure that you have WebKit installed?  Is there *anything* in  
> the imported WebKit module -- dir(WebKit)?
>

Yes i'm sure. WebKit module is a file WebKit.py not a package in a  
directory

> -bob

Thanks for you quickly response.
Wezzy

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] import framework for newbie

[Bob I. <bo...@re...>]

On Jan 5, 2004, at 12:01 PM, Wezzy wrote:

> Hi all, after reading docs about wrapping new framework i've made some  
> test with my own framework, but i'm not able to import it. So i've  
> tried with webkit framework (just for testing) but it doesn't work.
>
> This is my code:
>
> WebKit.py:
> import objc
> pyobjc.loadBundle("WebKit",globals(),bundle_path="/System/Library/ 
> Frameworks/WebKit.framework")
> del objc

Do you mean:

import objc
objc.loadBundle("WebKit",globals(),bundle_path="/System/Library/ 
Frameworks/WebKit.framework")
del objc

> inside the interpreter:
> import WebKit
> wb = WebKit.WebView()

You probably want:

import WebKit
wb = WebKit.WebView.alloc().init()

because:

wb = WebKit.WebView()

is going to raise "TypeError: Use class methods to instantiate new  
Objective-C objects"

> now i have an error, WebKit doesn't have WebView attributes.

You shouldn't be getting that particular error.  What version of PyObjC  
and OS X are you using?  I'm using a month old CVS version of PyObjC  
(Dec 03 2003) on OS X 10.3.2 (7D24).  Are you sure that you have WebKit  
installed?  Is there *anything* in the imported WebKit module --  
dir(WebKit)?

-bob

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] problem with launching pdf2tiff demo script

[Bob I. <bo...@re...>]

On Jan 5, 2004, at 11:45 AM, Ryan Wilcox wrote:

> On 1/5/04, at 10:03 AM, PIGEYRE Bastien said:
>
>> ok, so this application doesn't work for linux anyway?
>
> As Ronald mentioned, it may work on GNUStep.

I think GNUStep uses a version of Display PostScript, not Display PDF.  
I wouldn't be so sure that its NSImage (or whatever pdf2tiff uses) is 
any good at loading PDFs.  If you want to rasterize PDFs, you should 
look into Ghostscript ( http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/ ) or something 
of that nature.

>> is there a solution to adapt this application for linux?
>
> well, there IS wxPython (http://wxpython.org), probably one of the 
> better
> crossplatform GUI frameworks for Python.

That barely has anything to do with the question, PyObjC, or PDFs  :)

-bob

[Pyobjc-dev] import framework for newbie

[Wezzy <we...@ya...>]

Hi all, after reading docs about wrapping new framework i've made some  
test with my own framework, but i'm not able to import it. So i've  
tried with webkit framework (just for testing) but it doesn't work.

This is my code:

WebKit.py:
import objc
pyobjc.loadBundle("WebKit",globals(),bundle_path="/System/Library/ 
Frameworks/WebKit.framework")
del objc

inside the interpreter:
import WebKit
wb = WebKit.WebView()

now i have an error, WebKit doesn't have WebView attributes.

so i've tried with
import inspect
inspect.getmembers(WebKit,inspect.isclass)

and it returns [].

Where is my error ?
Thanks a lot
Wezzy

RE: [Pyobjc-dev] problem with launching pdf2tiff demo script

[Ryan W. <rya...@ma...>]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 1/5/04, at 10:03 AM, PIGEYRE Bastien said:

>ok, so this application doesn't work for linux anyway?

As Ronald mentioned, it may work on GNUStep.

>is there a solution to adapt this application for linux?

well, there IS wxPython (http://wxpython.org), probably one of the better
crossplatform GUI frameworks for Python.

Hope this helps,
_Ryan Wilcox

================================================================
Wilcox Development Solutions:          http://www.wilcoxd.com
Toolsmiths for the Internet Age            PGP: 0x2F4E9C31

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