pyobjc-dev — CVS commit notices go here

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] PyObjC 1.1b2

[Jordan K. <jo...@kr...>]

On 11-Apr-04, at 9:56 AM, Ronald Oussoren wrote:

> The most important changes w.r.t. the previous beta are improved 
> multi-threading support (with Python 2.3 only), some new examples, and 
> improved Xcode templates.

Thanks.. That fixed my issue with it finding the libraries.

Does anyone know if it's possible to hijack the Create Files command in 
IB after mucking around with the nib, to have it create the appropriate 
python files in Xcode (noting outlet names and such, like when running 
NibClassBuilder manually)?    With the Xcode templates, and a couple 
changes to IB, it would effectively be the same as working with 
Objective-C, albeit with a more enjoyable language.

J.

[Pyobjc-dev] PyObjC 1.1b2

[Ronald O. <ron...@ma...>]

I finally got around to doing another prerelease, get it while it's 
still hot :-)

There currently is no binary release for Jaguar, I didn't want to 
reboot my system today :(.

The most important changes w.r.t. the previous beta are improved 
multi-threading support (with Python 2.3 only), some new examples, and 
improved Xcode templates.

Ronald

P.S. my new e-mail address ron...@ma..., my previous address 
(ous...@ci...) will be deactivated at the 16th.

--
X|support bv            http://www.xsupport.nl/
T:  +31 610271479       F:  +31 204416173

[Pyobjc-dev] Re: Support for Python 2.2?

[Michael H. <mw...@py...>]

Ronald Oussoren <ous...@ci...> writes:

> Hi,
>
> Is anyone interested in having support for Python 2.2 (aka
> /usr/bin/python on Jaguar) in PyObjC? To be more precize, is anyone
> interested in maintaining that support?
>
> I'm no longer running Jaguar on my systems other than for testing
> PyObjC and the same seems to be true for other active developers.

I'm still running Jaguar, but couldn't care less about /usr/bin/python
thereon.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Some people say that a monkey would bang out the complete works
  of Shakespeare on a typewriter give an unlimited amount of time.
  In the meantime, what they would probably produce is a valid
  sendmail configuration file.                    -- Nicholas Petreley

[Pyobjc-dev] Support for Python 2.2?

[Ronald O. <ous...@ci...>]

Hi,

Is anyone interested in having support for Python 2.2 (aka 
/usr/bin/python on Jaguar) in PyObjC? To be more precize, is anyone 
interested in maintaining that support?

I'm no longer running Jaguar on my systems other than for testing 
PyObjC and the same seems to be true for other active developers.

Ronald
--
X|support bv            http://www.xsupport.nl/
T:  +31 610271479       F:  +31 204416173

[Pyobjc-dev] [ pyobjc-Bugs-933136 ] creating Interface Builder palletes doesn't work

[SourceForge.net <no...@so...>]

Bugs item #933136, was opened at 2004-04-11 12:36
Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter
You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=114534&aid=933136&group_id=14534

Category: None
Group: None
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 3
Submitted By: Ronald Oussoren (ronaldoussoren)
Assigned to: Ronald Oussoren (ronaldoussoren)
Summary: creating Interface Builder palletes doesn't work

Initial Comment:
Examples/ProgressViewPalette is an InterfaceBuilder palettte based 
on an Objective-C example with the same name.

The palette get's loaded, but IB complains that it cannot find the 
palette class.

IB probably uses a low-level API to get at the classes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=114534&aid=933136&group_id=14534

[Pyobjc-dev] Trouble finding shared libraries?

[Jordan K. <jo...@kr...>]

Fresh install of Panther, Xcode Tools 10.3 SDK (not sure if that was 
needed or not), updated to latest version.  Installed MacPython addons 
for Panther, followed by the pyobjc-1.1b1 binary installer.

When running Xcode and choosing Cocoa-Python Application, it 
pre-populates the project with PyObjC under Frameworks & Modules, but 
_AddressBook.so isn't found.  The same is the case with the following 
files that are highlighted in red in the project view:

_AddressBook.so
_InterfaceBuilder.so
_PreferencePanes.so
_SecurityInterface.so
_WebKit.so

This is the error that Xcode gives me:
pbxcp: _AddressBook.so: No such file or directory

Is this fixed in later versions, or am I doing something wrong?  Does 
the basic template not compile as-is without adding other application 
elements?

J.

[Pyobjc-dev] -

[<di...@t-...>]

<html>
<body>
<p align="center">
<img src="cid:3C7867FD.F13A9C16.F675B2F1.D13C90AE_csseditor"><p align="center">&nbsp;</p>
<p align="center"><font color="#FDFDFD">ход.</font></p>
<p align="center"><font color="#FDFDFD">можете смело отправляться на Уолл-Стрит "делать" миллионы долларов в день,</font></p>
<p align="center"><font color="#FDFDFD">феноменальногопуспеха Эндрю Карнеги. Карнеги высоко ценил  его  связи  как</font></p>
</body>
</html>

[Pyobjc-dev] =?Windows-1251?B?0+/w7vnl7e3g/yDx6PHy5ezgIO3g6+7j7u7h6+7m5e3o/w==?=

[cadweld <ber...@t-...>]

Уважаемые господа!

Предлагаем Вам 19 апреля поучаствовать в
однодневном семинаре на тему : «Упрощенная система
налогообложения».

Программа обучения:

1. Упрощенная система налогообложения (УСН). Налоги и сборы, исчисляемые при
УСН; в каких случаях организации, перешедшие на УСН, являются налоговыми агентами
по НДС, налогу на прибыль и другим налогам; преимущества и недостатки новой
упрощенной системы налогообложения. Последние изменения в законодательстве по УСН.

2. Как правильно перейти на упрощенную
систему и отказаться от нее. Порядок извещения налоговых органов о переходе на иную систему налогообложения.
Особенностиисчисления налогов при переходе с общей системы налогообложения на УСН и
наоборот.

3. Организация бухгалтерского и налогового учета предприятия при переходе на
УСН. Налоговые регистры, порядок расчета налога по бюджетам и фондам, льготы при
УСН.

4. Порядок признания доходов и расходов в переходный период. Учет стоимости
основных средств и сумм начисленной амортизации в переходный период.

5. Единый налог по результатам хозяйственной деятельности. Два варианта
исчисления единого налога: объекты налогообложения, налоговая база и налоговые ставки;
налоговый период, дата признания и порядок определения доходов и расходов при УСН;
расходы, учитываемые и не учитываемые при определении налоговой базы; особенности
учета отдельных видов доходов и расходов (расходов на приобретение основных средств и
доходов от их реализации; доходов и расходов, выраженных в иностранной валюте; доходов,
полученных в натуральной форме); учет убытков предыдущих периодов.

6. Учетная политика субъектов, применяющих упрощенную систему в 2004 г.

7. Отчетность организации, применяющей УСН. Порядок заполнения и сроки
подачи налоговой отчетности

8. Особенности трудовых отношений с работниками в организации, применяющей
УСН.

стоимость участия в мероприятии – 3900 рублей,
включая НДС. Форма оплаты любая (наличная или безналичная). в пакет услуг входит: участие в мероприятии,информационные печатные материалы кофе-пауза, обед.

Мастер-класс проходит в Москве (м. Академическая).Начало - в 10 часов и окончание - в 17.30 - 18.00.

Регистрация участников обязательна. При
регистрации до 14 апреля скидка 5%.

Если Вы не можете посетить мастер-класс мы предлагаем
Вам приобрести видеозапись
этого и других мастер-классов.К видеокассетам
прилагается раздаточный материал. стоимость приобретения видеосеминар – 2600 руб. в т.ч. НДС
 
(095) 207-26-21 и (095) 789-81-90.

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[Pierce T.W. I. <pi...@tw...>]

>
> It is intriguing that you bring up the public arch servers.  How does 
> CVS -> arch migration work?  I know from experience that cvs2svn is 
> pretty painless.

  Well, you can always just import the existing code base of course, or 
check out each tag in turn and import it as a revision.

If you wanted to keep all the history, there's a script to convert CVS 
into a change sets (a change set is an atomic commit), and from there 
into arch.

  http://wiki.gnuarch.org/moin.cgi/cscvs

  http://wiki.gnuarch.org/moin.cgi/Additional_20Tools

  Though it ignores branches and only imports the main line I think 
cvs2svn does  a similar thing.

Some people like to use CVS and tla in parallel:

http://wiki.gnuarch.org/moin.cgi/Interoperating_20with_20CVS

That sounds strange, but since tla is so good at merging, this lets you 
branch off a project that's stored on sf.net into your own personal 
arch reposistory, and make your own modifications while keeping in sync 
with the main development. Useful if you need local modifications to an 
open source project.

>
> Both, but sf.net is the real problem for me.  CVS rarely annoys me on 
> its own, but sf.net is consistently annoying.

  Yeah, that's that I thought. Perhaps just moving to https://gna.org 
would make more sense, since they support CVS too.

  I'm only an advocate of tla over svn, overall, I'm an advocate of 
staying with cvs for now while tla/svn mature. However, if sf.net is 
giving us problems, then perhaps it makes sense to just change that.

Pierce

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[Bob I. <bo...@re...>]

On Apr 9, 2004, at 2:33 AM, Pierce T.Wetter III wrote:

>
>
> Two Public arch servers suggested by arch folks:
>
> sourcecontrol.net
> https://gna.org/
>
> James Blackwell of sourcecontrol.net writes:
>
> Sourcecontrol.net.
>
> There are 149 publically mirrored archives, 19 of which are also homed
> at sc. There's a couple other small things that are being done as well
> -- some home pages, a branch lookup tool, an archive location, so forth
> and so on. One of the most recent additions is the recent availabily of
> an ldap server so that you an hook up your mail client and find the
> email addresses of other developers.
>
> As time passes, I'll keep adding things in a little bit at a time.
>
> So there you go.
>
> Is it that CVS is annoying, or is it that sf.net is annoying?

It is intriguing that you bring up the public arch servers.  How does 
CVS -> arch migration work?  I know from experience that cvs2svn is 
pretty painless.

Both, but sf.net is the real problem for me.  CVS rarely annoys me on 
its own, but sf.net is consistently annoying.

-bob

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[Pierce T.W. I. <pi...@tw...>]

Two Public arch servers suggested by arch folks:

sourcecontrol.net
https://gna.org/

James Blackwell of sourcecontrol.net writes:

Sourcecontrol.net.

There are 149 publically mirrored archives, 19 of which are also homed
at sc. There's a couple other small things that are being done as well
-- some home pages, a branch lookup tool, an archive location, so forth
and so on. One of the most recent additions is the recent availabily of
an ldap server so that you an hook up your mail client and find the
email addresses of other developers.

As time passes, I'll keep adding things in a little bit at a time.

So there you go.

Is it that CVS is annoying, or is it that sf.net is annoying?

Pierce

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[Pierce T.W. I. <pi...@tw...>]

> I am against moving to tla-arch.  I looked at it for a while, and I 
> didn't like it.  Like Bill, I also avoid GPL licensed software when 
> possible.  Perhaps I just need to look a lot harder at it, but as 
> someone with commit rights to the repository I don't see what tla-arch 
> is going to do for me that Subversion does not.

Ok, so lets say that Bill goes off and implements feature "whiz".

Meanwhile, you're working on "bang".

I'm working on "wham".

I get "wham" done. Since I don't have commit rights, but I want to show 
it to you, I put up an arch archive on an http, ssh or ftp server 
(WebDAV is only needed for write access).

You decide you like it, but want to merge it into wham, rather then 
putting it in the main repository. So you merge from "wham" into 
"bang".

Later, you merge wham+bang into the main repository. Bill gets whiz 
done, but it turns out that it relies on some super secret Apple 
feature that hasn't been released yet. So he continually merges 
"wham-bang" into "whiz", that is he merges from the main archive into 
his local branch.

Meanwhile, we've all been able to checkpoint our work locally, without 
involving the "main" repository.

That's what tla would do for you.

  Note that "pierce", "bill" and "bob" in this instance could also be 
three different projects by the same engineer.

  Anyways, svn is an improvement over cvs, but since it doesn't support 
history sensitive merging, I would argue that branching ends up being 
broken.

  Hmmm... Doesn't .mac include WebDAV support? I wonder if we could use 
that as our host...

Short presentation on how arch works at the nuts and bolts level:

http://web.verbum.org/tla/grokking-arch/img0.html

Here's a pretty good comparison which is tough on arch:

http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/scm.html

Here's a short tutorial on using arch to hack locally while tracking 
changes to the main archive:

http://www.rhythmbox.org/development.html

Pierce

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[Pierce T.W. I. <pi...@tw...>]

On Apr 8, 2004, at 6:50 PM, Zachery Bir wrote:

> On Apr 8, 2004, at 6:26 PM, b.bum wrote:
>
>>> SVN is definitely a solution to source control, but I'm not 
>>> convinced its better then CVS.
>>>
>>>   1. Its slower on dialup then CVS in my experience.
>>
>> Haven't encountered that, but I could definitely see how the lack of 
>> gzip --best on the transport layer would suck.
>>
>> Are you working with a Subversion repository for which mod_compress 
>> is enabled?
>
> Can this be ameliorated with svn+ssh, with compression enabled?

no, adding ssh to any protocol makes it take even longer.

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[Bob I. <bo...@re...>]

On Apr 9, 2004, at 1:34 AM, Ronald Oussoren wrote:

> This certainly is a topic that people care a lot about, 17 messages in 
> a night :-)
>
> On 8-apr-04, at 22:40, b.bum wrote:
>
>> Anyone want to move to Subversion?
>
> Why?

Haven't you had problems with sourceforge?  I have to try each cvs 
command 5 or 6 times, and updates take a long time to do.  Anonymous 
stuff is far far worse (at least from my experience with other 
project), when it's working.

>> I can have the project converted, moved over and setup in short order 
>> -- potentially even preserving all history information.  It mostly a 
>> matter of grabbing a block of time where the CVS repository doesn't 
>> change.
>>
>> A number of advantages:
>>
>> 	- it isn't CVS
> sure, and neither is SourceSafe :-)
>
>> 	- web based repos browser that is much more straightforward
> I seldomly use those
>
>> 	- can mount the repos in Finder and drag a copy of the trunk or 
>> branch just like any other filesystem
>
>
>> 	- it isn't CVS
> but why is not being CVS good *for PyObjC*.

Because our current CVS repository sucks, and CVS doesn't play well 
with binary files and bundles, which we have a lot of.. at least in the 
examples and templates.

>> 	- repository checkout -- anonymous or otherwise -- is considerably 
>> more straightforward
>
> the initial CVS checkout is two lines in the shell, that can hardly be 
> called difficult.

svn is nearly the same, but you don't have to login with meaningless 
credentials.  However, there is also the option to just wget the trunk 
for a webdav'ed svn repo (svn.red-bean.com is webdav).

>> 	- no more "wait 24 hours or so before changes are visible in 
>> anonymous repos"
>
> that is a SF problem, not CVS.

Yes, I would like to get off of sourceforge, even if it's just a CVS 
repo somewhere else.  I like subversion though, and it's very easy to 
switch.

>> 	- much better tagging/branching
>
> we don't use those anyway. Well, I do tag official releases but even 
> then I've never felt the need to revisit those.

Well we might if it was easier.. especially for say, experimental 
examples that don't work yet, we still have a couple of those.  
Branching and tagging are just as easy as copying files (in fact that 
is basically what it is).

>> 	- atomic commits
>
> That is a real advantage of SVN.
>
>>
>> Disadvantage:
>> 	- it is a change, and change is scary
> - Interface Builder doesn't know about the subversion meta files, 
> which causes problems

I won't answer this, but if you do not have a seed key, email me off 
list.

-bob

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[Ronald O. <ous...@ci...>]

This certainly is a topic that people care a lot about, 17 messages in 
a night :-)

On 8-apr-04, at 22:40, b.bum wrote:

> Anyone want to move to Subversion?

Why?

>
> I can have the project converted, moved over and setup in short order 
> -- potentially even preserving all history information.  It mostly a 
> matter of grabbing a block of time where the CVS repository doesn't 
> change.
>
> A number of advantages:
>
> 	- it isn't CVS
sure, and neither is SourceSafe :-)

> 	- web based repos browser that is much more straightforward
I seldomly use those

> 	- can mount the repos in Finder and drag a copy of the trunk or 
> branch just like any other filesystem


> 	- it isn't CVS
but why is not being CVS good *for PyObjC*.

> 	- repository checkout -- anonymous or otherwise -- is considerably 
> more straightforward

the initial CVS checkout is two lines in the shell, that can hardly be 
called difficult.

> 	- no more "wait 24 hours or so before changes are visible in 
> anonymous repos"

that is a SF problem, not CVS.

> 	- much better tagging/branching

we don't use those anyway. Well, I do tag official releases but even 
then I've never felt the need to revisit those.

> 	- atomic commits

That is a real advantage of SVN.

>
> Disadvantage:
> 	- it is a change, and change is scary
- Interface Builder doesn't know about the subversion meta files, which 
causes problems

Like Pierce I'm more interested in TLA, it's architecture looks more 
usefull. The GNU license isn't a problem here, I'm unlikely to embed 
TLA into my own projects.

DISCLAIMER: I have not used TLA or subversion, all my opinions on these 
systems are therefore based on hearsay.

Ronald
--
X|support bv            http://www.xsupport.nl/
T:  +31 610271479       F:  +31 204416173

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] GNUstep PyObjC compatibility

[Ronald O. <ous...@ci...>]

The version I just checked in mostly works on GNUstep again (only the 
core bridge and Foundation have been ported as of yet). I haven't run 
any real code, just the unittests.

What worries me is that Scripts/runPyObjCTests shows 2 failures in 
Foundation.test.test_nsdata and Foundation.test.test_nsdictionary that 
are not present when the tests are run seperately. This is probably a 
bug in PyObjC.

Another odd thing is this message: 'Unable to retrieve information 
about SIGPIPE'. This is shown when I import objc.

(GNUstep on a Debian 'testing' box, python == python2.3, gcc == 
gcc3.3.3)

BTW. The current CVS version does not work with Python2.2, due to 
extensive use of PyGILState_Ensure combined with giving up the GIL when 
calling into Python.

Ronald

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[Zachery B. <zb...@ur...>]

On Apr 8, 2004, at 7:12 PM, Andrew P. Lentvorski, Jr. wrote:

> Subversion has been explicitly *rejected* by the Linux kernel (went 
> with
> BitKeeper) and FreeBSD (went with Perforce).

Strawman. I don't see how PyObjC compares to either of those.

Zac

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[Zachery B. <zb...@ur...>]

On Apr 8, 2004, at 6:26 PM, b.bum wrote:

>> SVN is definitely a solution to source control, but I'm not convinced 
>> its better then CVS.
>>
>>   1. Its slower on dialup then CVS in my experience.
>
> Haven't encountered that, but I could definitely see how the lack of 
> gzip --best on the transport layer would suck.
>
> Are you working with a Subversion repository for which mod_compress is 
> enabled?

Can this be ameliorated with svn+ssh, with compression enabled?

Zac

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[David R. <da...@it...>]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I forgot to hit Reply all, so these _two_ messages only reached the 
original sender, not the list.

/ Regards, David

Begin forwarded message:

> From: David Remahl <da...@it...>
> Date: 8 april 2004 23.21.02 MET
> To: Donovan Preston <ds...@ma...>
> Subject: Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 8 apr 2004, at 22.48, Donovan Preston wrote:
>
>> On Apr 8, 2004, at 4:40 PM, b.bum wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone want to move to Subversion?
>>
>> Yes. Please! Subversion is so much nicer in a lot of little tiny 
>> ways. It's also much faster for me.
>>
>> dp
>
> Me too, although I'm fairly certain my vote carries no weight at all 
> :-).
>
> I have used svn for a week, and it works really nice...A lot better 
> than CVS, especially because directory structure is versioned.
>
> The only problems I've run into so far are Mac specific. Both affect 
> CVS as well, though. The first is that there is no automatic way of 
> handling resource forks. The property data is a nice place to put it 
> though. (Also, resources will probably not be needed in this project). 
> The other is that it has the same problem with packages as CVS does. 
> As you may know, Apple's applications sometimes replace the complete 
> package (file wrapper) before writing out the new files. The .svn 
> directory is therefore wiped, causing svn much confusion.
>
> Hopefully, having a reasonably large open source OS X project move to 
> svn may increase the priority of the issue of opaque directories from 
> its current P5 (lowest) state...
>
> I'm all for a switch, anyway. Especially since SourceForge's CVS 
> servers don't have a very good track record for stability...
>
> / Regards, David

The second message:

> On 9 apr 2004, at 01.12, Andrew P. Lentvorski, Jr. wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 8 Apr 2004, Marc-Antoine Parent wrote:
>>
>> Subversion has a significant number of external dependencies.  This 
>> is not
>> a good thing.
>
> It is not a good thing, but there are statically linked installers 
> available for OS X, that just take a few megs...
>
> [http://www.codingmonkeys.de/mbo/]
>
>>> But it is also much less mainstream, so add-ons are also likely to 
>>> come
>>> fast to svn.
>>
>> Subversion has been explicitly *rejected* by the Linux kernel (went 
>> with
>> BitKeeper) and FreeBSD (went with Perforce).  Arch/tla is much more 
>> like
>> BitKeeper and Perforce in design philosophy.  It will be interesting 
>> to
>> see if folks revisit these decisions now that alternatives are 
>> available.
>
> I don't know about FreeBSD, but when the Linux kernel developers made 
> their decision Subversion was still in beta...
>
> / David Remahl
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFAdfOkFlFiDoclYIURAgowAJ47/bZ6qj8JNhLZx/xKIaTAZqb72ACcCLd6
2d+fEqw8nlLYWyV737NJ8/w=
=8I0G
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[Bob I. <bo...@re...>]

On Apr 8, 2004, at 4:40 PM, b.bum wrote:

> Anyone want to move to Subversion?

I would just like to add my comments.. since we're way the heck off 
topic and Mail.app only does one level of threading anyway I'm just 
going to reply to the head.

I am VERY VERY VERY much for moving away from sourceforge.net.   Their 
repositories are unreliable, and the anonymous CVS sucks hard.  I would 
like to do this immediately if not sooner :)

I like Subversion.  I have been using it for a long time now, and I 
have had no problems.  It's better than CVS in all the ways that matter 
to me and solves a couple problems that we run into on a regular basis 
with PyObjC, with the added bonus that the learning curve to transition 
from CVS to SVN (as a user, anyway) is almost nonexistent.

Bill is proposing that we move to a *particular* subversion host, 
specifically svn.red-bean.com.  They do have WebDAV enabled, so 
anonymous checkouts are easy.

I am against moving to tla-arch.  I looked at it for a while, and I 
didn't like it.  Like Bill, I also avoid GPL licensed software when 
possible.  Perhaps I just need to look a lot harder at it, but as 
someone with commit rights to the repository I don't see what tla-arch 
is going to do for me that Subversion does not.

I think that mentioning the fact that the Linux kernel maintainers 
specifically did not choose Subversion has very little relevance to 
this discussion.  They needed to leave CVS a long time ago, and 
Subversion was not up to snuff at the time.  If Subversion was where it 
is now, it would have had a much better chance.  Subversion also solves 
problems that we have with CVS that the Linux kernel developers do not, 
particularly binary files and sane handling of directories.  I do not 
have BitKeeper experience, because their free license is evil, so I 
can't speak about its advantages.

Subversion does have a lot of dependencies, however the source tree 
comes with all of them except for BerkeleyDB, and there are binary 
installers available for Mac that work rather well.

-bob

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[Pierce T.W. I. <pi...@tw...>]

>
> I especially like the ability to do a checkin on my laptop without an
> active internet connection to the central repository and then merge the
> changes to the main repository when I do get a connection.  Subversion 
> and
> CVS fail at this; tla/arch and monotone work just fine with this.

  Yeah, IMHO, tla actually matches the work process of most developers 
more then cvs/svn do.

  Its simple to learn if you use it in the central repository/CVS style, 
but no one ever does that, because if they wanted to do that, they'd 
use CVS...

  Anyways, I found subversion underwhelming. Its "CVS done right", but 
I'm not sure that's the right goal...

  Pierce

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[Andrew P. L. Jr. <bs...@al...>]

On Thu, 8 Apr 2004, Marc-Antoine Parent wrote:

> >   tla/arch is both better designed then CVS, and adds enough to be
> > worth the trouble, but its hard to learn.
>
> If I may add my opinion as a lurker:
> I like the tla/arch philosophy better than svn or cvs myself, but it
> _is_ an investment to learn ...

I think people are forgetting how much of an investment CVS is to learn.

How many people can actually do more than a simple checkout or update in
CVS?  Certainly an order of magnitude less than the number of general
users.

Subversion has a significant number of external dependencies.  This is not
a good thing.

> But it is also much less mainstream, so add-ons are also likely to come
> fast to svn.

Subversion has been explicitly *rejected* by the Linux kernel (went with
BitKeeper) and FreeBSD (went with Perforce).  Arch/tla is much more like
BitKeeper and Perforce in design philosophy.  It will be interesting to
see if folks revisit these decisions now that alternatives are available.

tla/arch is also directly supported on Savannah.  That's not a small
thing.

I especially like the ability to do a checkin on my laptop without an
active internet connection to the central repository and then merge the
changes to the main repository when I do get a connection.  Subversion and
CVS fail at this; tla/arch and monotone work just fine with this.

-a

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[Pierce T.W. I. <pi...@tw...>]

On Apr 8, 2004, at 3:13 PM, Marc-Antoine Parent wrote:

>>   tla/arch is both better designed then CVS, and adds enough to be 
>> worth the trouble, but its hard to learn.
>
> If I may add my opinion as a lurker:
> I like the tla/arch philosophy better than svn or cvs myself, but it 
> _is_ an investment to learn, and I suspect I would be less prone to 
> small, regular commits in a tla repository, which I believe are a good 
> thing.

   Most open source developers end up having their own local repository 
that they use to make local commits to, then they migrate their changes 
in a batch to the main repository when their ready.

   In my case, it would be nice to commit some changes locally to PyObjC 
while I'm investigating something, then submitting it to approval.

> The CVL tool issue you raised with svn is also present with tla.

  Sure, I was arguing more against changing then I was arguing for tla.

> I do agree that, if we change, tla currently offers more interesting 
> add-ons than svn, by virtue of its design.
> But it is also much less mainstream, so add-ons are also likely to 
> come fast to svn.
>
> If tools are decisive, I vote to stay with cvs until the situation 
> evolves with tla and svn;
> otherwise, +1 for tla by virtue of design, but we would need a strong 
> community buy-in, as there very much is a learning curve.

  Agreed.

  Pierce

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[b.bum <bb...@ma...>]

On Apr 8, 2004, at 3:01 PM, Pierce T.Wetter III wrote:
>> Anyone want to move to Subversion?
>>
>> I can have the project converted, moved over and setup in short order 
>> -- potentially even preserving all history information.  It mostly a 
>> matter of grabbing a block of time where the CVS repository doesn't 
>> change.
>>
>> A number of advantages:
>>
>> 	- it isn't CVS
>
>      Not being CVS isn't an advantage in and of itself. That only 
> works in presidential elections.

Not true.   CVS is broken by design in a couple of areas that 
Subversion is specifically designed to not be broken.

	- horrible conflict resolution support
	- no atomic commits
	- broken handling of binary files
	- tagging/branching is broken;  subversion is not

>> 	- web based repos browser that is much more straightforward
>
>    But no Cocoa GUI tool like CVL.

Scplugin works fine.   So does svnX (or whatever it is called).   
Neither is currently as refined as CVL, though scplugin is close and is 
integrated into the Finder, which is really quite convenient.

>> 	- can mount the repos in Finder and drag a copy of the trunk or 
>> branch just like any other filesystem
>
>    If you're not on dialup. And only if the repository is hosted on a 
> WebDAV server.

And if you are on dialup, then Subversion can support a boatload of 
operations -- reverts and diffs -- without making a roundtrip to the 
server.

>> 	- repository checkout -- anonymous or otherwise -- is considerably 
>> more straightforward
>
>   It's what two steps to checkout?

A subversion checkout can be documented as a single URL.   CVS cannot.  
That is a big difference.

>> 	- no more "wait 24 hours or so before changes are visible in 
>> anonymous repos"
>
>   That's a SF thing, not a CVS thing though.

We are currently SF repository and, therefore, this "feature" of SF is 
a feature of using CVS unless we were to decide to go elsewhere.

>> 	- much better tagging/branching
>
>   Well, better tagging. I'm not convinced the branching is better.
>
>> 	- atomic commits
>
>   Does PyObjC ever run into this as a problem.

Yes.  I-- and others-- have frequently made changes to and committed 
across some combination of the Modules, Library, tests, Examples, and 
Documentation.  With CVS, there is NO WAY to know that you have 
identified every single file that was touched by a commit.   With SVN, 
it is trivial to do so.   This also plays well into bug tracking and 
other casual project management methodologies -- changes #1234 and 
#1238 were to fix bug #5595.    Not possible with CVS.

>> Disadvantage:
>> 	- it is a change, and change is scary
>
>      svn has some disadvantages too.
>
> I like Gnu arch better, especially for open source projects.
>
> http://wiki.gnuarch.org/

Interesting, but I don't find it compelling -- with 100+ sub-commands, 
it seems a bit overly complex (hard to learn).  It also doesn't "feel" 
like arch was designed to be usable by anyone but hardcore software 
developers.

(Personally, the GPL is a deal killer-- but that is just me)

And, of course, no GUI tool for arch/tla, either (though scplugin could 
be bent to work with it, I'm sure).

> SVN is definitely a solution to source control, but I'm not convinced 
> its better then CVS.
>
>   1. Its slower on dialup then CVS in my experience.

Haven't encountered that, but I could definitely see how the lack of 
gzip --best on the transport layer would suck.

Are you working with a Subversion repository for which mod_compress is 
enabled?

>   2. Tagging is better, branching looks better until you try to use 
> it, then you realize that they forgot merging, which is the hard part 
> of branching. So it ends up just being "different".

Haven't encountered that problem and I have heard a lot of praise from 
people that are managing really huge source trees with Subversion 
(Linux distributions, in particular).

Personally, I have found that the combination of atomic comments and 
the use of the repository revision numbers to be such that merges are 
much easier to deal w/in Subversion than CVS.

http://svnbook.red-bean.com/svnbook/ch04s03.html

>   3. The repository is opaque.

Agreed.

>  While SVN seems to be better designed then CVS, that's not saying 
> much. Its not clear that it adds enough to CVS to be worth the trouble 
> to switch.

Does for me.  Loads better.   I have been using CVS for a long time and 
Subversion is a huge relief.

b.bum

Re: [Pyobjc-dev] CVS Sucks.

[Marc-Antoine P. <map...@ac...>]

>   tla/arch is both better designed then CVS, and adds enough to be 
> worth the trouble, but its hard to learn.

If I may add my opinion as a lurker:
I like the tla/arch philosophy better than svn or cvs myself, but it 
_is_ an investment to learn, and I suspect I would be less prone to 
small, regular commits in a tla repository, which I believe are a good 
thing.
The CVL tool issue you raised with svn is also present with tla.
I do agree that, if we change, tla currently offers more interesting 
add-ons than svn, by virtue of its design.
But it is also much less mainstream, so add-ons are also likely to come 
fast to svn.

If tools are decisive, I vote to stay with cvs until the situation 
evolves with tla and svn;
otherwise, +1 for tla by virtue of design, but we would need a strong 
community buy-in, as there very much is a learning curve.

MAP