Thread: [Plib-users] Linux on Playstation 2

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From vis-sim.org for your knowledge -

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020130/tc/tech_sony_linux_dc_1.html

Paolo Leoncini wrote:
> 
> >From vis-sim.org for your knowledge -
> 
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020130/tc/tech_sony_linux_dc_1.html

Yes - it's not cheap ($200) but the kit includes a hard drive - so I
guess it's not too unreasonable.

The report on Slashdot said that it contained all the API's needed to
do graphics and write games - but it *DIDN'T* say whether that API
was OpenGL or whether it was something proprietary.

If it's the latter, we'll have to see whether it's worth trying to
port PLIB onto it.  Of course, even if we did - it might still take
a lot of effort to port existing PLIB software to PS2 because most
PLIB programs actually contain quite a bit of OpenGL and GLUT code.

Is anyone planning on getting one of these?

----------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------------
Mail : <sjb...@ai...>   WorkMail: <sj...@li...>
URLs : http://www.sjbaker.org
       http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net
       http://prettypoly.sf.net http://freeglut.sf.net
       http://toobular.sf.net   http://lodestone.sf.net

Steve Baker wrote:
> 
> Paolo Leoncini wrote:
> >
> > >From vis-sim.org for your knowledge -
> >
> > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020130/tc/tech_sony_linux_dc_1.html

I looked into this in some detail.

There are some juicy details in the bottom 6 paragraphs of this article:

  http://www.execpc.com/~halkun/PS2/

I find it a little depressing.  Sony appear to have crippled the system
in the worst way.  Being unable to read CD-R's is pretty bad, the weirdness
over Sync-on-green monitors isn't good news, 

For $199 you get:

  * A hard drive (40Gb) that's hardwarily hacked so
    you can't put it into a PC or replace it with a
    standard PC drive.
  * A 100baseT Ethernet adaptor for the PS-2.
  * A VGA adaptor - but only for (rare) sync-on-green monitors.
  * A USB mouse.
  * A USB keyboard.
  * A special magic boot DVD that's impossible to copy
    because it's a double-layer disk...and for which source code
    is not provided.
  * A pair of Linux DVD's that include source code - including Xfree and
    a optimised Sony-special gcc version.
  * Documentation.

You have to boot with the magic boot DVD which adds a software layer
*beneath* Linux proper in order to avoid Sony giving away secrets about
their hardware.  Hence the Linux device drivers are really just a layer
on top of the 'real' (and *secret*) drivers that Sony provide.

By the time you add up the cost of the parts ($10 mouse, $25 keyboard,
$80 hard drive, $30 NIC) the Linux distro is costing maybe $50 - which
isn't bad compared to RedHat or SuSE.   I don't think this is a ripoff.

So, for $199+$299 (for the PS-2 itself), you have a Linux box that's
not *great* - but probably usable.  I don't think you'll be able to
write and distribute games that run on regular PS-2's - so only other
Linux-PS2 users will be able to benefit.

You also won't be able to use PS-2 memory cartridges without reformatting
them in a way that makes them useless for non-Linux PS-2 games.

There is some confusion about whether you can drive a TV set from PS-2 Linux.

Biggest problem of all is that I don't *think* it supports OpenGL...I suspect
that you have to talk to the low level registers in the graphics hardware
or something equally nasty.

As a cheap ($499) PC, it's probably not bad - so long as you don't want to
run OpenGL stuff.  Games that only use X-windows should run OK.  Of course
you'll never be able to add a second hard drive, upgrade the RAM, put in
a faster CPU or a better graphics card, add a CD writer...that kind of
thing...that's not good.

So, I think that if you are already a PS-2 owner who'd like to use it for Word
Processing, email, etc then this is a good deal.  It's cheaper than buying
a new PC and it's got all you need right there in the box with no installation
hassles.

But if you are a PC owner who thinks this would be a neat way to get your games
onto PS-2 so you can give them away to all your PS-2 owning friends...forget
it!  Even if you own a PS-2 already, the $200 is probably better spent on
getting a new graphics card and a CPU upgrade for your existing PC.  The PS-2's
CPU is pretty slow and whilst it's graphics aren't bad, they don't come close to
the quality of a modern nVidia card and they are going to be a *bitch* to program
without OpenGL.

On that basis, I doubt that anyone will bother porting PLIB to it unless some
enthusiast gets hardware-accellerated Mesa onto it somehow.

----------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------------
Mail : <sjb...@ai...>   WorkMail: <sj...@li...>
URLs : http://www.sjbaker.org
       http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net
       http://prettypoly.sf.net http://freeglut.sf.net
       http://toobular.sf.net   http://lodestone.sf.net

Here is some more links and info.

About OpenGL:
 http://playstation2-linux.com/forum/forum.php?thread_id=24&forum_id=4

"By: mogul ( Bret Mogilefsky (SCEA) ) 
Actually you'll notice that there is a skeleton project on the site called "ps2gl". This is a lib that's very close to OpenGL in API (but not so close that it can use the OpenGL trademark). It's pretty easy to move OpenGL code to and from it. There's a version for native PS2 development (ie. pro game developers) that has pretty high performance (high enough to be used in a pro game). The ps2linux version comes from the same source base, and source will be provided. If SDL makes use of ps2gl for acceleration, you can probably make something impressive pretty easily. The main point is that looking at the code will educate you about the PS2 hardware as well as point out areas where the kernel devices need work to really throttle up the speed... "

And http://playstation2-linux.com is place to get more info.

JJ

------ Alkuperäinen viesti ------
Steve Baker wrote:
> 
> Paolo Leoncini wrote:
> >
> > >From vis-sim.org for your knowledge -
> >
> > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020130/tc/tech_sony_linux_dc_1.html

I looked into this in some detail.
...

Jari Jokivuori wrote:
> 
> Here is some more links and info.
> 
> About OpenGL:
>  http://playstation2-linux.com/forum/forum.php?thread_id=24&forum_id=4
> 
> "By: mogul ( Bret Mogilefsky (SCEA) )
> Actually you'll notice that there is a skeleton project on the site called "ps2gl". This is a lib that's very close to OpenGL in API (but not so close that it can use the OpenGL trademark). It's pretty easy to move OpenGL code to and from it. There's a version for native PS2 development (ie. pro game developers) that has pretty high performance (high enough to be used in a pro game). The ps2linux version comes from the same source base, and source will be provided. If SDL makes use of ps2gl for acceleration, you can probably make something impressive pretty easily. The main point is that looking at the code will educate you about the PS2 hardware as well as point out areas where the kernel devices need work to really throttle up the speed... "
> 
> And http://playstation2-linux.com is place to get more info.

Ah!  Curt was speculating that this might be available - I was suprised that
they'd release it because of the OpenGL license issue which would not only
cost them money - but also force them to pass the OpenGL compliance tests.

It'll be interesting to see if SGI sue them.

----------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------------
Mail : <sjb...@ai...>   WorkMail: <sj...@li...>
URLs : http://www.sjbaker.org
       http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net
       http://prettypoly.sf.net http://freeglut.sf.net
       http://toobular.sf.net   http://lodestone.sf.net

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Steve Baker wrote:

> It'll be interesting to see if SGI sue them.

Or Microsoft, considering how SGI has been selling everything.  :(

Steve Wendt wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Steve Baker wrote:
> 
> > It'll be interesting to see if SGI sue them.
> 
> Or Microsoft, considering how SGI has been selling everything.  :(

OpenGL licensing is *still* in the hands of SGI.

----------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------------
Mail : <sjb...@ai...>   WorkMail: <sj...@li...>
URLs : http://www.sjbaker.org
       http://plib.sf.net http://tuxaqfh.sf.net http://tuxkart.sf.net
       http://prettypoly.sf.net http://freeglut.sf.net
       http://toobular.sf.net   http://lodestone.sf.net

Thread: [Plib-users] Linux on Playstation 2

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