Thread: [Plib-users] plib for a game engine..
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From: <ha...@sl...> - 2000-11-17 05:07:38
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I'm designing a 3D RPG and am considering plib as the one of the options
for a 3D library.
I'm wondering if there is currently any mechanism to convert or load
worlds from any of the decent game editors (worldcraft, quake editor,
etc).
I was also wondering what the general differences are between plib and
crystal space. (e.g. what advantages does plib have over CS?)
Two differences I've noticed are:
1) plib looks *much* simpler with a much smaller learning curve than
crystal space.
2) plib provides tree based rendering and culling, where crystal space
focuses on a "portal engine" for performance. Does this theoretically
make plib perform better than crystal space in an open area scene,
while CS performs better in a closed quake-style engine?
3) crystal space has more functionality:
* a decent software renderer
* more file loaders
thanks,
Brian Hayward
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From: Dave M. <dp...@ef...> - 2000-11-17 07:29:26
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> I was also wondering what the general differences are between plib and > crystal space. (e.g. what advantages does plib have over CS?) > plib is simple, stable, easy to learn, and has actually been used to make several games. CS is interesting, feature rich, popular, somewhat unstable (last i checked), and not very useful. if you just want to study a 3d engine, you can learn alot from CS but if you want to build a game, you will have better luck with plib. look at TuxKart, TuxAQFH, or the other links on http://plib.sourceforge.net --Dave |
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From: Wolfram K. <w_...@rz...> - 2000-11-17 11:29:01
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<ha...@sl...> wrote: > >I'm designing a 3D RPG and am considering plib as the one of the options >for a 3D library. > >I'm wondering if there is currently any mechanism to convert or load >worlds from any of the decent game editors (worldcraft, quake editor, >etc). Thanks to Jon Anderson it can load Quakes MD2. It can also load: 3ds (3D Studio, works most of the time) ASE (3DSMAX ASCII EXPORT Version 2.00, well tested) DXF (well tested) AC, TRI (Andy Colbourne Editor. well tested) MDL (the format for Micro$ofts Flight simulator, some features missing) OBJ (wavefront, works well) SSG (native format, well tested) VRML (VRML, fairly basic right now) X (Microsofts DirectX-Format. Loading of geometry works. I had to interrupt working on it, but am now at it again, the rest like textures, saving etc should be working next week) FLT (OpenFlight, work in progress) BTW, it would be nice if a) all of these would be mentioned on the web site and b) we had a table showing which format and which loader has which features. >I was also wondering what the general differences are between plib and >crystal space. (e.g. what advantages does plib have over CS?) Unfortunately I didn't have enough time to really look into CS. Therefore the answer to this question would interest me also :-). >Two differences I've noticed are: >1) plib looks *much* simpler with a much smaller learning curve than > crystal space. Yes, looks like it. >2) plib provides tree based rendering and culling, where crystal space > focuses on a "portal engine" for performance. Does this theoretically > make plib perform better than crystal space in an open area scene, > while CS performs better in a closed quake-style engine? To take a wild guess: CS is probably faster indoors. Outdoors the difference is probably smaller. But of course the portals engine adds quite a lot of code complexity. >3) crystal space has more functionality: > * a decent software renderer We have one too, namely Mesa :-). > * more file loaders Which do they have? Looking at their site, I just see two (3DS and MD2). >thanks, >Brian Hayward Bye bye, Wolfram Kuss. |
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From: <ha...@sl...> - 2000-11-17 15:52:31
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>>3) crystal space has more functionality: >> * a decent software renderer > >We have one too, namely Mesa :-). hehe.. True. The difference between the "tux" demo between sw and hw rendering is tragic on a 400mhz cpu though. After compiling crystal space run "walktest". I'm still amazed at how well it works without using the option "video=opengl" (which tells it to use Mesa/GLX). The quality (especially walking right up to objects) isn't nearly as good as the hardware renderer, but the performance is very acceptable. >> * more file loaders > >Which do they have? >Looking at their site, I just see two (3DS and MD2). I was definitely wrong here, especially after reading the previous email. The biggest advantage I've seen so far is the "map2cs" converter. Is there anything in the works for plib like a map2ssg? Maybe my real question is this: What is the most common method for designing complex worlds for plib? What world builder tool is often used in conjunction with plib? I know it could be done in 3ds, but I'm wondering if any of the special purpose area builders can be used as well. Thanks for everyones suggestions. -- Brian Hayward |
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From: Steve B. <sjb...@ai...> - 2000-11-17 23:41:17
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ha...@sl... wrote:
>
> I'm designing a 3D RPG and am considering plib as the one of the options
> for a 3D library.
The Majik3D folk were going that way too. I think their project fell
apart though.
> I'm wondering if there is currently any mechanism to convert or load
> worlds from any of the decent game editors (worldcraft, quake editor,
> etc).
We now have loaders for LOTS of formats. Quake's level file format is
VERY weird - and we can't load that yet. The Quake player/monster file
format is supported though. What format does WorldCraft use?
The loaders currently in PLIB/SSG are:
ASE (3D Studio)
MDL (Microsoft FlightSim Aircraft)
TRI
3ds (3D Studio)
DXF (AutoCAD and others)
OBJ
AC3D (From AC3D - a Linux modeller)
MD2 (Quake-2's creature format)
SSG (PLIB's native format).
...it's getting relatively easy to write loaders for PLIB now - so if
you know the format you want to read then writing a loader for it and
(hopefully) contributing it to PLIB shouldn't be rocket-science.
> I was also wondering what the general differences are between plib and
> crystal space. (e.g. what advantages does plib have over CS?)
I've talked about this offline - so I won't go into that again. It would
be interesting to hear what other people think though.
> Two differences I've noticed are:
> 1) plib looks *much* simpler with a much smaller learning curve than
> crystal space.
I can't tell - I've never used CrystalSpace.
> 2) plib provides tree based rendering and culling, where crystal space
> focuses on a "portal engine" for performance. Does this theoretically
> make plib perform better than crystal space in an open area scene,
> while CS performs better in a closed quake-style engine?
That's certainly what I'd expect. There has been quite a bit of
discussion of a Portal class for PLIB/SSG - it doesn't look that
difficult to me.
> 3) crystal space has more functionality:
> * a decent software renderer
Well, we only support OpenGL - there are software OpenGL renderers - but
their performance sucks. If the CrystalSpace software renderer is
significantly faster than OpenGL-in-software then it's very likely that
it lacks many features of OpenGL...that's A Very Bad Thing because that
would imply that CrystalSpaces' interface to OpenGL much exclude those
features that their software renderer can't hack.
Personally, I think the era of software rendering is dead. ALL new
computers are now shipped with hardware 3D...3D cards are down to
sub-$100. I have no interest in software rendering...for games at
least.
> * more file loaders
Well, we are getting new loaders appearing at an amazing rate...and
they are truly not hard to write.
--
Steve Baker HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>
WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
HomePage : http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
Projects : http://plib.sourceforge.net
http://tuxaqfh.sourceforge.net
http://tuxkart.sourceforge.net
http://prettypoly.sourceforge.net
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From: <ha...@sl...> - 2000-11-18 02:46:23
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>We now have loaders for LOTS of formats. Quake's level file format is >VERY weird - and we can't load that yet. The Quake player/monster file >format is supported though. What format does WorldCraft use? WorldCraft creates ".map" files. They are ascii files and they rever to textures in an assiciated ".wad" file. There is a program called "map2cs" that converts this wad/textures to native crystal space worldfile format (a zip file holding the textures, point data, etc). http://crystal.sourceforge.net/docs/online/manual/cs_88.htm#SEC123 You're probably right, especially with a converter already out there - it should be fairly easy to write a loader for plib. >Personally, I think the era of software rendering is dead. ALL new >computers are now shipped with hardware 3D...3D cards are down to >sub-$100. I have no interest in software rendering...for games at >least. I'll agree with you there, no-one ships video cards that aren't 3d capable anymore. Having the actual support under the appropriate operating system is indeed another story though. When the linux distributions start shipping XFree86 4.0 (DRI) I am sure this problem will be mostly resolved though. >Well, we are getting new loaders appearing at an amazing rate...and >they are truly not hard to write. Yes, so true. The list of loaders you already have is much more than I realized from reading the docs. -- Brian |
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From: tjones <tj...@is...> - 2000-11-18 16:02:45
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----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...> To: <pli...@li...> Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [Plib-users] plib for a game engine.. > ha...@sl... wrote: > > > > I'm designing a 3D RPG and am considering plib as the one of the options > > for a 3D library. > > The Majik3D folk were going that way too. I think their project fell > apart though. Hello, from what i can remember (its been a long time since I stoped following majik) they where hired to continue working on the project for a company, and where forced to use the internal engine and not continue with plib. but I am not 100% sure of this. Ben |
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