plib-users

Re: [plib-users] Hidden Line Removal

[Devrim E. <de...@in...>]

> Pass 1: Render all the geometry in completely transparent polygons
>         ...make sure you have glAlphaFunc set so that the DO actually
>         render.  As an alternative, you could draw the scene with it's
>         'normal' alpha values - but tell GL to mask off the colour planes.
>
> Pass 2: Use glPolygonOffset to move everything a tad closer to the eye
>         and then re-render the geometry in wireframe mode.

If I was doing pure opengl I would draw two passes sequentially. But while
using a scene graph where shall I do the first and the second pass ?
 I am planning to draw 1st pass in a predraw and set the state for the second
pass at the end of the predraw func. This way draw function will automatically
do the second pass. I wonder how do PLIB'ers do multipass rendering normally.

>
>
> The first pass sets the Z buffer as if it had been drawn normally - the
> second pass does the actual rendering of the wires - which will be occluded
> by the polygons in the first pass.
>
> > BTW, the list is now at:
> > pli...@li...
> > While you are writing to woodsoup. Is the woodsoup-list still open?
>
> Well, I've had no success in getting the Woodsoup maintainer to shut
> them down...so probably they are still running.  However it's unlikely
> anyone could find them because the Woodsoup website just redirects you
> to our usual Slashdot location.  I suppose some older Linux CD's still
> tell you to send queries to Woodsoup - it's hard to do anything about
> that.  I suppose that's a good reason to let the Woodsoup mailing lists
> live - we can at least tell people where they *SHOULD* be subscribed.
>
>
> --
> Steve Baker   HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>
>               WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
>               HomePage : http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
>               Projects : http://plib.sourceforge.net
>                          http://tuxaqfh.sourceforge.net
>                          http://tuxkart.sourceforge.net
>                          http://prettypoly.sourceforge.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> plib-users mailing list
> pli...@li...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/plib-users

--
/*===============================================
M. Devrim Erdem            de...@in...
Software Engineering

info(+)TRON, Turkey
Tel: +90 216 4921002, Ext 138
Fax: +90 216 3432132
Http://www.infotron.com.tr
Http://www.machsim.com/devrimerdem
===============================================*/

[Plib-users] Memory overrun

[Devrim E. <de...@in...>]

ul.cxx :

lines:
  case TEXTURE:{
   char *myFileName = new char [strlen( filename ) + strlen (
_ssgTexturePath )];
   sprintf ( myFileName, "%s\\%s", _ssgTexturePath, filename );

shall be
  case TEXTURE:{
   char *myFileName = new char [strlen( filename ) + strlen (
_ssgTexturePath ) +  2 ];
   sprintf ( myFileName, "%s\\%s", _ssgTexturePath, filename );

in my opinion.

Regards,
--
/*===============================================
M. Devrim Erdem            de...@in...
Software Engineering

info(+)TRON, Turkey
Tel: +90 216 4921002, Ext 138
Fax: +90 216 3432132
Http://www.infotron.com.tr
Http://www.machsim.com/devrimerdem
===============================================*/

Re: [Plib-users] Particle Systems...

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

ha...@sl... wrote:
> 
> How are particle systems typically handled with plib?  Say we want a
> swirling affect of particles to go around a character when they cast a
> spell, what is the best way to handle it?
> 
> Are there any examples I could read on how to do such a thing?

I've done a water spray in PLIB.  Several people were interested
in it so I turned the (very early alpha) game into a SourceForge
project.

You can go to http://toobular.sourceforge.net and download the
sources.

I used OpenGL points - you might want to use little ssgCutout
particles using a fuzzy textured circle or something.

-- 
Steve Baker   HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>
              WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
              HomePage : http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
              Projects : http://plib.sourceforge.net
                         http://tuxaqfh.sourceforge.net
                         http://tuxkart.sourceforge.net
                         http://prettypoly.sourceforge.net

[Plib-users] Keyboard control

[Kevin G. <av...@cu...>]

Is there a cool a way to handle keyboard input under plib? The glut
callback just gives you when a key has been pressed and not when its
been released. I'd like to be able to handle both events.

Cheers for any help

Kev

[Plib-users] Particle Systems...

[<ha...@sl...>]

How are particle systems typically handled with plib?  Say we want a
swirling affect of particles to go around a character when they cast a
spell, what is the best way to handle it?

Are there any examples I could read on how to do such a thing?

Thanks,
Brian Hayward

Re: [plib-users] Hidden Line Removal

[Wolfram K. <w_...@rz...>]

Steve wrote:

>Wolfram Kuss wrote:
>> 
>> Devrim Erdem <de...@in...> wrote:
>
>> >We need to implement some sort of hidden line removal for our terrain
>> >model in wireframe mode.
>> 
>> Citing from the red book, topic hidden-line removal (look into the
>> index):
>> "If you want to draw a wireframe object with hidden lines removed, one
>> approach is to draw the outlines using lines, and then fill
>> the interiors of the polygons making up the surface with polygons
>> having the background colour".
>
>You can do a little better than that with a two-pass trick.
>
>Pass 1: Render all the geometry in completely transparent polygons
>[...]
>Pass 2: Use glPolygonOffset to move everything a tad closer to the eye
>        and then re-render the geometry in wireframe mode.

Interesting. You effectively "reversed" the passes and in one pass,
you don't draw to the colour buffer. I guess on some renderers this is
faster, but on most hardware it shouldn't matter since Z + colour + at
least one texture is done in one cycle.

BTW, we UHammes Software) still use an hidden line algo that really
calculates the occlusions like in "face i occludes line j from t=0.32
to 0.647" :-(. I think it should be trivial for us to use opengl for
doing this to the screen. But we still need the old algo for plotters
:-(.


> the Woodsoup website just redirects you
>to our usual Slashdot location.  

LOL ;-).

> I suppose that's a good reason to let the Woodsoup mailing lists
> live - we can at least tell people where they *SHOULD* be subscribed.

Yes, I agree.

Bye bye,
Wolfram.

Re: [plib-users] Hidden Line Removal

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

Wolfram Kuss wrote:
> 
> Devrim Erdem <de...@in...> wrote:

> >We need to implement some sort of hidden line removal for our terrain
> >model in wireframe mode.
> 
> Citing from the red book, topic hidden-line removal (look into the
> index):
> "If you want to draw a wireframe object with hidden lines removed, one
> approach is to draw the outlines using lines, and then fill
> the interiors of the polygons making up the surface with polygons
> having the background colour".

You can do a little better than that with a two-pass trick.

Pass 1: Render all the geometry in completely transparent polygons
        ...make sure you have glAlphaFunc set so that the DO actually
        render.  As an alternative, you could draw the scene with it's
        'normal' alpha values - but tell GL to mask off the colour planes.

Pass 2: Use glPolygonOffset to move everything a tad closer to the eye
        and then re-render the geometry in wireframe mode.

The first pass sets the Z buffer as if it had been drawn normally - the
second pass does the actual rendering of the wires - which will be occluded
by the polygons in the first pass.

> BTW, the list is now at:
> pli...@li...
> While you are writing to woodsoup. Is the woodsoup-list still open?

Well, I've had no success in getting the Woodsoup maintainer to shut
them down...so probably they are still running.  However it's unlikely
anyone could find them because the Woodsoup website just redirects you
to our usual Slashdot location.  I suppose some older Linux CD's still
tell you to send queries to Woodsoup - it's hard to do anything about
that.  I suppose that's a good reason to let the Woodsoup mailing lists
live - we can at least tell people where they *SHOULD* be subscribed.

 
-- 
Steve Baker   HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>
              WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
              HomePage : http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
              Projects : http://plib.sourceforge.net
                         http://tuxaqfh.sourceforge.net
                         http://tuxkart.sourceforge.net
                         http://prettypoly.sourceforge.net

RE: [Plib-users] BorlandC++

[Norman V. <nh...@ca...>]

Deungsan writes:
>
>(3) New question:  Is there 'glut' compatible with BCB 5.0?

http://www.xmission.com/~nate/glut.html

Re: [Plib-users] BorlandC++

[Deungsan <Deu...@ny...>]

(1) There is no "ODBCCP32.LIB" in my BCB 5.0. I found a report about this in
a Borland news group. Hope I will get the key soon.

(2) No problem with the missing bodies of functions 'sgMakeQuat' and
'sgMakeRotMat4'. I made them (of course I tried plib1.2.0 and the newer one,
which ended with the same errors). One more, there is a function named
"sgMakeRotMat42" in the 'sg.cxx'. Wonder whether this is the same family of
overloaded as the above 'sgMakeRotMat4'  or an independent 4 to 2
transformation function.

(3) New question:  Is there 'glut' compatible with BCB 5.0?

Many thanks, Wolfram,

Deungsan,

Re: [plib-users] Hidden Line Removal

[Wolfram K. <w_...@rz...>]

Devrim Erdem <de...@in...> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>We need to implement some sort of hidden line removal for our terrain
>model in wireframe mode. 

Citing from the red book, topic hidden-line removal (look into the
index):
"If you want to draw a wireframe object with hidden lines removed, one
approach is to draw the outlines using lines, and then fill 
the interiors of the polygons making up the surface with polygons
having the background colour".

Also look in google for
+opengl +polygonoffset +hidden
(maybe also deja.com).

BTW, the list is now at:
pli...@li...
While you are writing to woodsoup. Is the woodsoup-list still open?

>Thanks.

Bye bye,
Wolfram.

Re: [Plib-users] BorlandC++

[Wolfram K. <w_...@rz...>]

Deungsan wrote:

>Thanks, Wolfram,
>
>Following the instructions of the 'readmes'
>
>I made the following project file for the example 'sg_squd_test.cxx',

'sg_squd_test.cxx'? Which plib-version do you use?


>(1) What I got is a link err message:'unable to open file "ODBCCP32.LIB" '

I have just renamed ODBCCP32.LIB on my computer and can still compile
all of plib. ODBC sounds like database drivers to me.
You should
a) Try to find out who uses ODBCCP32.LIB. What's the exact error
message and when (compiling what) do you get it?
I think you should try to compile the plib-sub-projects as "*.lib" and
only then create applications.
b) If all else fails, ODBCCP32.LIB is in the platform sdk, which might
be free (of charge).

>I wish that someone BCC++ users would help me with this.sgMakeQuat.
>
>Next, attracted by a neat set of simple geometry 'sg' functions (stand
>alone), I separated 'sg' section, and ran the example 'sg_squd_test.cxx'
>with 'sg.cxx' and 'sg.h'. I got err messages for  'sgMakeQuat' and
>'sgMakeRotMat4'. (2) I am wondering where the bodies of these functions are

The bodies of the two overloaded sgMakeRotMat4-functions are in sg.cxx
and sg.h. Steve is a big fan of inline-stuff.
I can't find sgMakeQuat - maybe because I use the newest plib from
cvs.

>Deungsan,

Bye bye,
Wolfram.

Re: [Plib-users] BorlandC++

[Deungsan <Deu...@ny...>]

Thanks, Wolfram,

Following the instructions of the 'readmes'

I made the following project file for the example 'sg_squd_test.cxx',

USE("vctobpr.log", File);
/* The above instruciton is a file made by Visual C++ to BCC conversion
utility in BCC++ */

USELIB("..\..\..\plib-1.2.0\src\sg\Release\sg.lib");
USELIB("..\..\..\plib-1.2.0\src\ssg\Release\ssg.lib");
USELIB("..\..\..\plib-1.2.0\src\sl\Release\sl.lib");
USELIB("..\..\..\plib-1.2.0\src\pui\Release\pui.lib");
USELIB("..\..\..\plib-1.2.0\src\js\Release\js.lib");
USELIB("..\..\..\plib-1.2.0\src\fnt\Release\fnt.lib");

#define WinMain

(1) What I got is a link err message:'unable to open file "ODBCCP32.LIB" '
I wish that someone BCC++ users would help me with this.sgMakeQuat.

Next, attracted by a neat set of simple geometry 'sg' functions (stand
alone), I separated 'sg' section, and ran the example 'sg_squd_test.cxx'
with 'sg.cxx' and 'sg.h'. I got err messages for  'sgMakeQuat' and
'sgMakeRotMat4'. (2) I am wondering where the bodies of these functions are
in standalone functions.

Deungsan,



----- Original Message -----
From: Wolfram Kuss <w_...@rz...>
To: <pli...@li...>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Plib-users] BorlandC++


> Deungsan wrote:
>
> >Can anyone halp me with installing PLIB for Borland C++ Builder 5.0 on
Window 98?
>
> I dont know whether someone is using C++-builder.
> But several people here use Windo$, so if you have any concrete
> problems we might be able to solve, dont hesitate to ask.
>
> I would guess you should create a "project" for each of the ahm,
> projects :-) like ssg, sg, fnt, pui etc. Then add all the source-files
> (*.cxx) from the directory to your project. Then try to compile :-).
> You will then get errors because some projects need others, for
> example ssg needs ul and sg. So, add ul.lib and sg.lib to the
> linker-input for ssg. That should be it.
>
> >Deungsan,
>
> Bye bye,
> Wolfram.
> _______________________________________________
> plib-users mailing list
> pli...@li...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/plib-users

Re: [Plib-users] BorlandC++

[Wolfram K. <w_...@rz...>]

Deungsan wrote:

>Can anyone halp me with installing PLIB for Borland C++ Builder 5.0 on Window 98?

I dont know whether someone is using C++-builder.
But several people here use Windo$, so if you have any concrete
problems we might be able to solve, dont hesitate to ask.

I would guess you should create a "project" for each of the ahm,
projects :-) like ssg, sg, fnt, pui etc. Then add all the source-files
(*.cxx) from the directory to your project. Then try to compile :-).
You will then get errors because some projects need others, for
example ssg needs ul and sg. So, add ul.lib and sg.lib to the
linker-input for ssg. That should be it.

>Deungsan,

Bye bye,
Wolfram.

Re: [Plib-users] (no subject)

[<ha...@sl...>]

Use the aformentioned sleep function, when you come out of it check for
events (to see if something happened), if nothing happened, go back into
the sleep without updating the display.

--
Brian


>Hi
>I mean if i write a ordinarily application i dont want the cpu to work at
>max .
>i am not trying to write a graphic application just a ordinarily application
>like notepad(win) and only update
>when something happens
>
>thanks
>lanius
>
>_______________________________________________
>plib-users mailing list
>pli...@li...
>http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/plib-users
>

Re: [Plib-users] (no subject)

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

LANIUS wrote:

> I mean if i write a ordinarily application i dont want the cpu to work at
> max .
> i am not trying to write a graphic application just a ordinarily application
> like notepad(win) and only update
> when something happens

So only call the relevent PLIB redraw routines when some user action happens
(a mouse click or keystroke for example).

-- 
Steve Baker   HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>
              WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
              HomePage : http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
              Projects : http://plib.sourceforge.net
                         http://tuxaqfh.sourceforge.net
                         http://tuxkart.sourceforge.net
                         http://prettypoly.sourceforge.net

Re: [Plib-users] (no subject)

[LANIUS <la...@ma...>]

Hi
I mean if i write a ordinarily application i dont want the cpu to work at
max .
i am not trying to write a graphic application just a ordinarily application
like notepad(win) and only update
when something happens

thanks
lanius

Re: [Plib-users] (no subject)

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

> LANIUS wrote:
> 
> Hi
> i'm new at plib how do i make the cpu go idle for example
> if i want to write  ordernery application (no game )

You mean you just want to yield some CPU time for other
applications to use?   You could use ulMilliSecondSleep(x)
where x is the number of milliseconds to delay.

-- 
Steve Baker   HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>
              WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
              HomePage : http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
              Projects : http://plib.sourceforge.net
                         http://tuxaqfh.sourceforge.net
                         http://tuxkart.sourceforge.net
                         http://prettypoly.sourceforge.net

[Plib-users] (no subject)

[LANIUS <la...@ma...>]

Hi
i'm new at plib how do i make the cpu go idle for example
if i want to write  ordernery application (no game )

thanks
lanius

[Plib-users] BorlandC++

[Deungsan <Deu...@ny...>]

Can anyone halp me with installing PLIB for Borland C++ Builder 5.0 on =
Window 98?

Thanks,

Deungsan,

[Plib-users] Borland C++

[Deungsan <Deu...@ny...>]

Can anyone help me with installing PLIB for Borland C++ Builder 5.0 on =
Window 98?

Thanks,

Deungsan,

Re: [Plib-users] plib for a game engine..

[tjones <tj...@is...>]

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...>
To: <pli...@li...>
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Plib-users] plib for a game engine..


> ha...@sl... wrote:
> >
> > I'm designing a 3D RPG and am considering plib as the one of the options
> > for a 3D library.
>
> The Majik3D folk were going that way too.  I think their project fell
> apart though.

Hello, from what i can remember (its been a long time since I stoped
following majik) they where hired to continue working on the project for a
company, and where forced to use the internal engine and not continue with
plib. but I am not 100% sure of this.

Ben

Re: [Plib-users] plib for a game engine..

[<ha...@sl...>]

>We now have loaders for LOTS of formats.  Quake's level file format is
>VERY weird - and we can't load that yet.  The Quake player/monster file
>format is supported though.  What format does WorldCraft use?

WorldCraft creates ".map" files.  They are ascii files and they rever to
textures in an assiciated ".wad" file.

There is a program called "map2cs" that converts this wad/textures to
native crystal space worldfile format (a zip file holding the
textures, point data, etc).

http://crystal.sourceforge.net/docs/online/manual/cs_88.htm#SEC123

You're probably right, especially with a converter already out there - it
should be fairly easy to write a loader for plib.

>Personally, I think the era of software rendering is dead.  ALL new
>computers are now shipped with hardware 3D...3D cards are down to
>sub-$100.  I have no interest in software rendering...for games at
>least.

I'll agree with you there, no-one ships video cards that aren't 3d capable
anymore.  Having the actual support under the appropriate operating system
is indeed another story though.  When the linux distributions start
shipping XFree86 4.0 (DRI) I am sure this problem will be mostly
resolved though.

>Well, we are getting new loaders appearing at an amazing rate...and
>they are truly not hard to write.

Yes, so true.  The list of loaders you already have is much more than I
realized from reading the docs.

--
Brian

Re: [Plib-users] plib for a game engine..

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

ha...@sl... wrote:
> 
> I'm designing a 3D RPG and am considering plib as the one of the options
> for a 3D library.

The Majik3D folk were going that way too.  I think their project fell
apart though.

> I'm wondering if there is currently any mechanism to convert or load
> worlds from any of the decent game editors (worldcraft, quake editor,
> etc).

We now have loaders for LOTS of formats.  Quake's level file format is
VERY weird - and we can't load that yet.  The Quake player/monster file
format is supported though.  What format does WorldCraft use?

The loaders currently in PLIB/SSG are:

  ASE    (3D Studio)
  MDL    (Microsoft FlightSim Aircraft)
  TRI
  3ds    (3D Studio)
  DXF    (AutoCAD and others)
  OBJ
  AC3D   (From AC3D - a Linux modeller)
  MD2    (Quake-2's creature format)
  SSG    (PLIB's native format).

...it's getting relatively easy to write loaders for PLIB now - so if
you know the format you want to read then writing a loader for it and
(hopefully) contributing it to PLIB shouldn't be rocket-science.

> I was also wondering what the general differences are between plib and
> crystal space. (e.g. what advantages does plib have over CS?)

I've talked about this offline - so I won't go into that again.  It would
be interesting to hear what other people think though.
 
> Two differences I've noticed are:
> 1) plib looks *much* simpler with a much smaller learning curve than
>    crystal space.

I can't tell - I've never used CrystalSpace.

> 2) plib provides tree based rendering and culling, where crystal space
>    focuses on a "portal engine" for performance.  Does this theoretically
>    make plib perform better than crystal space in an open area scene,
>    while CS performs better in a closed quake-style engine?

That's certainly what I'd expect.  There has been quite a bit of
discussion of a Portal class for PLIB/SSG - it doesn't look that
difficult to me.

> 3) crystal space has more functionality:
>      *      a decent software renderer

Well, we only support OpenGL - there are software OpenGL renderers - but
their performance sucks.  If the CrystalSpace software renderer is
significantly faster than OpenGL-in-software then it's very likely that
it lacks many features of OpenGL...that's A Very Bad Thing because that
would imply that CrystalSpaces' interface to OpenGL much exclude those
features that their software renderer can't hack.

Personally, I think the era of software rendering is dead.  ALL new
computers are now shipped with hardware 3D...3D cards are down to
sub-$100.  I have no interest in software rendering...for games at
least.

>      *      more file loaders

Well, we are getting new loaders appearing at an amazing rate...and
they are truly not hard to write.
 
-- 
Steve Baker   HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>
              WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
              HomePage : http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
              Projects : http://plib.sourceforge.net
                         http://tuxaqfh.sourceforge.net
                         http://tuxkart.sourceforge.net
                         http://prettypoly.sourceforge.net

Re: [Plib-users] plib for a game...

[<ha...@sl...>]

>>3) crystal space has more functionality:
>>     *      a decent software renderer
>
>We have one too, namely Mesa :-).

hehe.. True.  The difference between the "tux" demo between sw and hw
rendering is tragic on a 400mhz cpu though.  After compiling crystal space
run "walktest".  I'm still amazed at how well it works without using the
option "video=opengl" (which tells it to use Mesa/GLX).  The quality
(especially walking right up to objects) isn't nearly as good as the
hardware renderer, but the performance is very acceptable.

>>     *      more file loaders
>
>Which do they have?
>Looking at their site, I just see two (3DS and MD2).

I was definitely wrong here, especially after reading the previous email.
The biggest advantage I've seen so far is the "map2cs" converter.  Is
there anything in the works for plib like a map2ssg?

Maybe my real question is this:  What is the most common method for
designing complex worlds for plib?  What world builder tool is often used
in conjunction with plib?  I know it could be done in 3ds, but I'm
wondering if any of the special purpose area builders can be used as well.

Thanks for everyones suggestions.
--
Brian Hayward

Re: [Plib-users] plib for a game engine..

[Wolfram K. <w_...@rz...>]

<ha...@sl...> wrote:

>
>I'm designing a 3D RPG and am considering plib as the one of the options
>for a 3D library.
>
>I'm wondering if there is currently any mechanism to convert or load
>worlds from any of the decent game editors (worldcraft, quake editor,
>etc).

Thanks to Jon Anderson it can load Quakes MD2. It can also load:

3ds (3D Studio, works most of the time)
ASE (3DSMAX ASCII EXPORT Version 2.00, well tested)
DXF (well tested)
AC, TRI (Andy Colbourne Editor. well tested)
MDL (the format for Micro$ofts Flight simulator, some features
missing)
OBJ (wavefront, works well)
SSG (native format, well tested)
VRML (VRML, fairly basic right now)
X (Microsofts DirectX-Format. Loading of geometry works. I had to
interrupt working on it, but am now at it again, the rest like
textures, saving etc  should be working next week)
FLT (OpenFlight, work in progress)

BTW, it would be nice if a) all of these would be mentioned on the web
site and b) we had a table showing which format and which loader has
which features.

>I was also wondering what the general differences are between plib and
>crystal space. (e.g. what advantages does plib have over CS?)

Unfortunately I didn't have enough time to really look into CS.
Therefore the answer to this question would interest me also :-).

>Two differences I've noticed are:
>1) plib looks *much* simpler with a much smaller learning curve than
>   crystal space.

Yes, looks like it.

>2) plib provides tree based rendering and culling, where crystal space
>   focuses on a "portal engine" for performance.  Does this theoretically
>   make plib perform better than crystal space in an open area scene,
>   while CS performs better in a closed quake-style engine?

To take a wild guess:
CS is probably faster indoors.
Outdoors the difference is probably smaller.
But of course the portals engine adds quite a lot of code complexity.

>3) crystal space has more functionality:
>     *      a decent software renderer

We have one too, namely Mesa :-).

>     *      more file loaders

Which do they have?
Looking at their site, I just see two (3DS and MD2).


>thanks,
>Brian Hayward

Bye bye,
Wolfram Kuss.