Re: [Plib-devel] Re: KobayashiMaru & plib

[Alexander R. <a_r...@in...>]

Hi,

Wolfram Kuss wrote:
> 
> >I've today drawn my first image, see my 3D math help page ;-)
> 
> Huh, I didn't see it?

Yet only on my disk, but soon on my page ... say with 0.2.10

> >The point is: if I'm going to concentrate on this one genre, I might
> >write a good game - and get stuck with it.
> >I have LONG LONG thought about howto write this Starfighter game
> >(version 1.0.0) in a way that it can easily extended to v2.0.0 in
> >some time, but if I would concentrate to this one genre, I had to
> >completely re-write code and classes to expand it.
> 
> I don't understand this, it sounds like a general engine is easier
> than a specialized one?

Aeh - yes.

If would have designed the game only as a starfighter game, it would
get a starfighter game, but then I would be stuck in in, cause
so many things would be attached to starfighting, you had to change
a lot in the code, many people do the error of hardcoding things that
arent'n necessary.

AND that game would be called just-one-another-lousy-spaghetti-code
-starfighter-game

I think I've set my standards so high to be motivated to at least try
to leap that high. If I fail, I still can say "I tried"


Just look at ./kobmaru.conf

Thats just the start of how the end user will configurate the game for
his needs.

The KIs (the code that flys the things) can easily be exchanged or
improved,
as well for the Huds, there is an API that KI and Hud can use,
the 3D Renderer is completely exchangeable (that's what I call Open)

I've thought about this design for 0.5-1 Year, without writing a single
line of code.

And because I have made it easily extensible - that's what I'd call
better.

> 
> >
> >V1.0.0 will be a good starfighter game, with all possibilities
> >to extend it.
> 
> >It will be better than XwA,XwT or WC, but it will probably not be
> >better than SpaceThing or glWars, from which I've heard today.
> 
> I have never played XwA,XwT, but I cant imagine that you could just do
> them in, say a few man-months so you can then improve. AND you need
> some time to learn 3D graphics, game development etc. With plib you
> have a HUGE head start over people a few years ago, but it STILL
> cost you a long time to do just the rotations.
> 
> I think one problem is that you come over as someone who hasn't done
> anything hard yet, but is sure that what all other people do is
> trivial and if he just tried it, he could of course do much better.
> 
> One advice if you want to become a good programmer and see things more
> realistic (which can be frustrating):
> Before you do things, guess how long it will take. Then, after you

To version 1.0.0 (exactly the starfighter game Steve wants me to 
concentrate on, but with enough empty 'PCI-Slots' to extend it)
To version 2.0.0 probably one year more?

And if in-between something inmy life changes, I'll probably stop
working due to no time.

But at least I'll try.

> of and if it does how much the kinetic energy changed etc. If after
> the first collision the object rotates and 0.00001 seconds later a
> second collision occurs that stops the rotation, will you catch it?

Maybe not. But maybe this precision you talk about isn't needed in 
an ACTION type game. Please see reply to Steve for that.

> >If the spaceship is so near that is makes sense to let you see
> >all 1.000 polygons, it's probaby so near that you wont even have
> >to think about drawing something other.
> 
> You are knocking down other games and argue like this?!?

I'm knocking down on their gameplay, their extensibility for players,
their re-usablility, the lack of features, but definetly not on their
3D display.

> >> > I've got so many ideas, I don't know where to start next.
> 
> Well, that's all we are saying: Start with one thing, for example a
> space fighting game a la Elite. Once you have done that, you can plan
> the next thing. BTW, I loved Elite.

I personally won't do any of the trading stuff, cause I dont like that.
But you if you like that part of elite, you could go and write sort
of Gui start goes around this stuff, and then calls the engine for
gameplay.

> >> > It will surely a game that will be a lot better than other commercial
> >> > games, but I also think that graphics and sound will suck. Relatively.
> 
> Do you think (all) game programmers suck?

Only the gay ones. (This is not intolerant cause I think my gay friends
would
say that)

No, how do you mean your question?

What I don't like is programmers who know nothing of portability and
multi-
platform, cause they only know Windows and DirectX
I know that for many this isn't their fault, but the decision of other
people.

> >But show Tux to a person who pays 80DM for a commercial game and
> 
> Huch ;-)
> 
> >is used to graphics like Quake3, he will probably just laugh and
> >say 'yoz gfx sukkz' or so.
> 
> And you really think you can beat many commercial games??

Never ever in graphics or sound. In what I _very_personally_ call
better.
No one will notice.

Not since Dragon's Lair came out, and gameplay and ideas got dumped due
to graphics and sound. Gimme C64 Thrust and Space Taxi, I'd be happy.

We probably have a VERY different understandung of the word 'better',
but better IS a truly subjective view.

> >> OK - so *everyone* is telling you the same thing.  People with 20 times
> >
> >They don't have the experience, so I igonored it.
> 
> Can you tell me one single area where you have experience?

> >I'd like to come to your town and explain KobayashiMaru to you, I
> >just need a ticket, a big blackboard and some hours of talking
> >time.
> 
> I fear that wouldn't help. I fear that for each argument pointing out
> a difficulty you would say - oh I will simply do it this way. I hope I
> am wrong so.

I'd think I'd really knew the answers to some, but maybe would be lost
for others.

Another problem I have is that no-one in my personal life is able to
discuss or brainstorm with me about that subjects (they are friends, but
not programmers!), so I really like this discussion here.

> Of course all the problems can be solved. After all, all the problems
> were solved in one or the other game. And if one engine for one
> genre has a difficulty with another, then just have n engines working
> together looking as one to the games-programmer.
> But the problem is how much time you will need (Steves 500 years isn't
> unrealistic IMHO), how complex it will get (I would bet it gets so
> complex that you couldn't do it ever as a single person even when
> working full time on it) and how fast it will run.

You are thinking wrong. Look in the mirror.

I am not alone, I am definetly not alone writing that game.

Look how many people are yet working on that project:
	myself
	Steve Baker (as author of plib)
	Oliver Baker (for having done models for Tux/Tuxkart)
	Steve Belzcyk (models from Orbit)
	you and Norman Vine (building win32)
	and every other person on plib,ppe etc.

WE ARE A LOT!

> I think you will only be able to do so if you have some experience of
> your own.
> So, PLEASE stop theoreticising about what great and unbelievable
> things you could do in V 2.0.

I can stop theoreticising, but I'll keep trying to achieve.

> >(I didn't asked if it will run fast, just if it _can_ be possible)
> 
> Well, we thought you wanted to make a playable game.
> If you want to make something to test theories, that's fine by me, but
> say so.
> And Steve didn't say the problem was that terragear is unsuitable. He
> said that to get good frame rates you have to tweak the game design,
> that is, you cant have a universal game engine with todays hardware.

Everyone will be able to tune KobMaru to his needs by editing
kobmaru.conf,
and it is designed to work as well in veryveryverylimitedmodeinlowres
on a PDA as well as on your 2GHZ machine in a year.

Time works for me, you don't need to have the boobs of laura croft AND
an
asteroid AND the 1000polygon spaceship on the screen, and you'd
probably wont do it if you haven't got the cpu - BUT

IF some day you have it, you have the freedom/the option to play
mission that are yet unplayable due to their general complexity I have
in mind for the future.

> >possible solutions: i) more framerates by

> You do realize that i) isnt a complete solution, don't you?

Of course.

> >It is true that you could say the things shorter, but on the
> >other hand I like this discussion, you're the first one
> >I have to respect,
> 
> Good, then try not to offend people.

I try not to, I have respect for Steve since I have been convinced,
but he is as much a novice in terms of 'KobayashiMaru-Design' as I
am in 3D.

I'm taking all his advice WHILE still clinging to my distant dreams.

> >No, only one.
> >I immediatly worked on that part, and I have seen that it was true,
> >the other wouldn't probably have been needed.
> 
> Good. But it would have been even better if you had said so.
> Just "Ok - I am testing it now" would have been enough.

Here you are true. Sorry.

> >*PLEASE* remember this:
> >
> >You went public when you were 1.0.0, as you told me.
> >[...]
> >Please see the difference between a fully grown & tested game, and
> >my early stage.
> 
> This is very funny. All we are telling you is that at 0.29 you should
> not think about 2.0 or 10.0 and even less brag about 2.0 and 10.0 .

If the programmers of Word had just thought of Word2000 before the
first line of code ever...



Alex