[Pipmak-Users] Re: Pipmak-Users digest, Vol 1 #34 - 4 msgs

[Liam S. <Li...@fr...>]

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. Perhaps the best way to move  
forward would be to ask a question and then go off with the answer  
and work until the next problem is encountered. Not fast but it will  
avoid the issues you bring up as to what is obvious to whom.

In the interest of starting such a process.

I have right-clicked on the Pipmak Demo and this brings up the window  
with the elements of the demo (the node folders with their pictures  
and lua documents)

SO far so good.

Now, if one double clicks or tries to open the "main.lua"  or any of  
the node.lua files in order to see what is written in them or to  
modify what is written so as to create your own world,  it says there  
is no default application set to open the document. If one specifies  
that the file should be opened in Pipmak that just launches the  
Pipmak Game Engine window. If one then clicks on open project, it  
just launches the Pipmak Game Demo game.

So how is one to see what is written in the lua node files so as to  
change it?

I told you this was pretty basic stuff. Forget what one writes when  
one gets into the file, I can't even open it - hence my trying to  
load Lua for Mac, use the console window, etc. , etc.

Again, thanks for any help. And by the way, I will be more than happy  
to write up this process for new users as soon as I understand it  
myself.

All the best,

Liam


  On Mar 17, 2006, at 11:27 PM, pipmak-users- 
re...@li... wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Basic Mac help (Liam Shannon)
>    2. Re: Basic Mac help (Urs Holzer)
>    3. Re: Basic Mac help (Christian Walther)
>    4. Re: Basic Mac help (Urs Holzer)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> To: pip...@li...
> From: Liam Shannon <Li...@fr...>
> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 07:43:52 -0500
> Subject: [Pipmak-Users] Basic Mac help
> Reply-To: pip...@li...
>
> As it seems Pipmak is aimed at people who are not serious game
> coders, is there any chance that someone could create some kind of
> documentation, even if it was just a page long, to tell people how to
> do basic stuff, like open the Pipmak Demo and see/use the code, for
> people who do not have a background in programming.
>
>  From looking at the Pipmak numbered files, and reading the
> discussion of how the program works, it seems like there would be a
> relatively short learning curve in order to start breaking into
> Pipmak. Of course, real expertise and artful use would take longer
> and require more learning.
>
> But as it is, for someone without a basic understanding of how to get
> started, one can't do anything. And none of the Lua sites (that I can
> find anyway) give a basic overview of any of this. All of them are
> aimed at people who are already programmers and are new to Lua only.
>
> What is needed is a basic step by step process that introduces first
> the new paradigm of writing programs on a mac and goes from there.
> ie. Does one have to install Lua for Mac on your machine first? If so
> how is that done? How does one see/work on/ "compile" (hard as it may
> seem to understand, to many many people, compiling is not a concept
> many people have any idea of) files? What is the "Console" program
> and how does it work - again there is no reference material on any of
> this anywhere I can find.
>
> As it is, all the documentation assumes a level of programming
> understanding beyond what I would assume many of the possible users
> of Pipmak have.
>
> I only share this as I have talked to many people who might use
> Pipmak and become loyal users/developers/community members, if only
> they could find a little help with understanding what is basically a
> new paradigm. In general, most such people come from other
> disciplines, graphic experts/3d modellers, interactive fiction
> writers, etc.
>
> If the goal is not for Pipmak to become a kind of middleware for a
> larger user base then I would understand not wanting to offer this
> help - though it would seem that is self-defeating, as those who
> already understand programming are inherently a group less in need of
> the program.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Liam
>
> Liam Shannon
> Creative Director
> Fresh Cut Grass Advertising
>
> 22 Everett Street
> Sherborn, MA 01770
> (508)545-2125
>
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> To: pip...@li...
> From:  Urs Holzer <ur...@an...>
> Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 2006 15:53:04 +0100
> Subject: [Pipmak-Users] Re: Basic Mac help
> Reply-To: pip...@li...
>
> Hi
>
>> As it seems Pipmak is aimed at people who are not serious game
>> coders, is there any chance that someone could create some kind of
>> documentation, even if it was just a page long, to tell people how to
>> do basic stuff, like open the Pipmak Demo and see/use the code, for
>> people who do not have a background in programming.
>
> Would it be useful to have a step by step tutorial that describes  
> how to
> create a simple pipmak-project? Do you mean something like this?
>
>>  From looking at the Pipmak numbered files, and reading the
>> discussion of how the program works, it seems like there would be a
>> relatively short learning curve in order to start breaking into
>> Pipmak. [...]
>
> Right. Games that don't need some special features are easily created.
>
>> But as it is, for someone without a basic understanding of how to get
>> started, one can't do anything. And none of the Lua sites (that I can
>> find anyway) give a basic overview of any of this. All of them are
>> aimed at people who are already programmers and are new to Lua only.
>
> http://www.lua.org/
> I see your problem. For the first steps in pipmak, you do not need to
> know anything about lua at all. You only have to create images and
> hotspot-maps. Like this you can already create a few panoramas, for
> example a little island on which you can walk around. To create the
> corresponding .lua-files, you only have to copy and modify some
> statements. You can take the ones from the demo project of pipmak.
> (Look at the end of this post.)
>
>> What is needed is a basic step by step process that introduces first
>> the new paradigm of writing programs on a mac and goes from there.
>> ie. Does one have to install Lua for Mac on your machine first? If so
>> how is that done? How does one see/work on/ "compile" (hard as it may
>> seem to understand, to many many people, compiling is not a concept
>> many people have any idea of) files? What is the "Console" program
>> and how does it work - again there is no reference material on any of
>> this anywhere I can find.
>
> In order to create a pipmak-game (or project if you want), you do not
> need to compile pipmak itself. Lua is linked statically into  
> pipmak, so
> you don't even have to install lua. Just download the newest build of
> pipmak for the mac.
>
>> As it is, all the documentation assumes a level of programming
>> understanding beyond what I would assume many of the possible users
>> of Pipmak have.
>
> The main problem seems to be to find the information you need.
>
>> I only share this as I have talked to many people who might use
>> Pipmak and become loyal users/developers/community members, if only
>> they could find a little help with understanding what is basically a
>> new paradigm. In general, most such people come from other
>> disciplines, graphic experts/3d modellers, interactive fiction
>> writers, etc.
>
> Graphic experts and 3d modellers? Advice them immediately to use  
> pipmak!
> I hope to see a free, graphically fantastic game on pipmak!  
> (Dreams ...
> some become true.)
>
>> If the goal is not for Pipmak to become a kind of middleware for a
>> larger user base then I would understand not wanting to offer this
>> help - though it would seem that is self-defeating, as those who
>> already understand programming are inherently a group less in need of
>> the program.
>
> As I'm not the author of pipmak, I'm not saying anything about the
> destination of pipmak. But for me it's like this: I have some
> programming skills, but wouldn't be able to write my own "Myst"-engine
> from scratch. Exactly such an engine is Pipmak. With Pipmak, I can
> concentrate on the game and am not bothered with technical thigs like
> OpenGL and protability. Unfortunately, I do not have much time at the
> moment to develop my game. So progress is only made very slowly.
>
> A simple pipmak-project:
>
> main.lua looks like this:
>
>   version (0.23)
>
>   title "Pipmak simple project"
>   startnode (1)
>
> OK, node 1 is our first position in a virtual world.
> Save all Images you need for this position in the folder 1.
> In 1/node.lua write the following:
>
>   cubic { "01.jpeg", "02.jpeg", "03.jpeg", "04.jpeg", "05.jpeg",
> "06.jpeg" }
>
>   hotspotmap "hotspots.png"
>
>   hotspot { target = 2 }
>   hotspot { target = 35 }
>
> Do the same thing for every position (node). If you have done this,  
> you
> can already wolk around in your virtual world. How the images  
> 01.jpg to
> 06.jpg and hotspots.png should look like should be described in the
> documentation to pipmak. You dont have to compile anything, simply  
> load
> main.lua with pipmak!
>
> Greetings
> Urs
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> To: pip...@li...
> From:  Christian Walther <cwa...@gm...>
> Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 2006 18:19:23 +0100
> Subject: [Pipmak-Users] Re: Basic Mac help
> Reply-To: pip...@li...
>
> Hi Liam
>
> Urs has already said a lot of what I'd have answered, but let me (as
> Pipmak's author) elaborate on some points.
>
> First of all, thanks for bringing up the topic. I sometimes worry that
> there might be a lot of people in a similar situation to yours,
> potential Pipmak users, but who are too busy or afraid or whatever to
> ask questions (that I would happily answer) and so are turned away  
> from
> Pipmak.
>
> Let me explain why the state of documentation for Pipmak is what it  
> is.
> The reason I did not start with writing a tutorial (or other entry- 
> level
> documentation) is that I'm not too fond of tutorials myself. I usually
> find that I learn faster by examining examples, doing my own
> experiments, and looking things up in reference documentation. That's
> why I provide examples (the demo project that contains examples of how
> to use any of Pipmak's features) and reference documentation
> (Reference.pdf, which is still incomplete, but should be quite  
> usable by
> now). I realize that this style of documentation, essentially tailored
> to myself, may not be the right thing, or not sufficient, for other
> people. Therefore I would be very happy to have some complementary
> entry-level documentation, such as a simple tutorial, for Pipmak. I  
> have
> not written such documentation myself for the following reasons:
>
> 1. There is still a lot to do in Pipmak code-wise. Doing this requires
> programming skills, and having in-depth knowledge of Pipmak's code  
> makes
> it easier. Since I am the one who currently has more of that knowledge
> than anyone else, that looks like a job for me (but contributions are
> still welcome, of course). Entry-level documentation, on the other  
> hand,
> can just as well (or maybe even better) be written by a contributor
> without programming skills (but perhaps better writing and teaching
> skills than mine). So, it seems to me that time is better spent  
> with me
> programming and a contributor writing documentation than me writing
> documentation and the contributor doing nothing.
>
> 2. If I were to write entry-level documentation, it would  
> inevitably end
> up in the same style as the reference (and the comments in the demo
> project). That means that if you don't understand some concept in the
> reference, you possibly also wouldn't understand it in a tutorial
> written by me. In addition, I may neglect to properly explain things
> that (subconsciously) seem obvious to me as a programmer and as  
> someone
> perfectly familiar with Pipmak. An outsider, on the other hand, seeing
> things with fresh eyes, may be able to explain them in different ways
> and anticipate beginners' problems better.
>
> In short, I heartily encourage anyone who would like to help improve
> Pipmak to consider writing such documentation. Maybe you? Don't forget
> that I'm here to answer your questions, you don't have to be an  
> expert.
> I'm willing to guide you as much as necessary, this still is less work
> for me than writing a full tutorial.
>
>
>> But as it is, for someone without a basic understanding of how to get
>> started, one can't do anything. And none of the Lua sites (that I can
>> find anyway) give a basic overview of any of this. All of them are  
>> aimed
>> at people who are already programmers and are new to Lua only.
>
> As Urs already said, you don't need to know anything about Lua for
> simple projects. So I guess the problem for me to solve is how to  
> better
> make people aware of that.
>
>> What is needed is a basic step by step process that introduces  
>> first the
>> new paradigm of writing programs on a mac and goes from there. ie.  
>> Does
>> one have to install Lua for Mac on your machine first? If so how  
>> is that
>> done? How does one see/work on/ "compile" (hard as it may seem to
>> understand, to many many people, compiling is not a concept many  
>> people
>> have any idea of) files? What is the "Console" program and how  
>> does it
>> work - again there is no reference material on any of this anywhere I
>> can find.
>
> It's not necessary to install anything, it's not necessary to compile
> anything, and it's not necessary to use the console. Is there anything
> in Pipmak's documentation or on the web site that is giving you the
> impression you'd have to do any of these things? The question is meant
> to sound friendly, not arrogant - I'm genuinely interested, because if
> there is, that's something I need to fix.
>
>> As it is, all the documentation assumes a level of programming
>> understanding beyond what I would assume many of the possible  
>> users of
>> Pipmak have.
>
> That may be true, but it's not meant to. I'd like to change that,  
> but I
> need help. Do you think an additional piece of entry-level  
> documentation
> would alleviate the problem, or are there also things that need to be
> explained more throroughly in the reference?
>
> It's true that authoring a Pipmak project currently means writing text
> files, and not dragging stuff around with your mouse, but don't let  
> that
> discourage you. It need not have much to do with programming if you
> don't want to. In addition, graphical editing features are planned  
> (some
> fragments are even in place already, but as they aren't really useful
> yet, they're hidden by default).
>
>> I only share this as I have talked to many people who might use  
>> Pipmak
>> and become loyal users/developers/community members, if only they  
>> could
>> find a little help with understanding what is basically a new  
>> paradigm.
>> In general, most such people come from other disciplines, graphic
>> experts/3d modellers, interactive fiction writers, etc.
>
> It would be very exciting to have those people. Although I'm  
> hesitant to
> encourage too much evangelism at this point because Pipmak is  
> really not
> suited yet for more ambitious projects (the most important missing
> features are sound and movies), people who are willing to actively
> participate and help each other out are very welcome.
>
> I think the main problem at this time is that Pipmak is still
> essentially a one-man project, which means that it progresses very
> slowly, both on the feature front and the support/documentation front.
>
> Thanks for your thoughts!
>
>   -Christian
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> To: pip...@li...
> From:  Urs Holzer <ur...@an...>
> Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 2006 23:16:11 +0100
> Subject: [Pipmak-Users] Re: Basic Mac help
> Reply-To: pip...@li...
>
> Hi all
>
> Christian Walther wrote:
>> [...]
>
>> [...] So, it seems to
>> me that time is better spent with me programming and a contributor
>> writing documentation than me writing documentation and the
>> contributor doing nothing.
>
> Haha! Do you allow me to quote that?
>
>> [...]
>
>> It would be very exciting to have those people. Although I'm hesitant
>> to encourage too much evangelism at this point because Pipmak is
>> really not suited yet for more ambitious projects (the most important
>> missing features are sound and movies), people who are willing to
>> actively participate and help each other out are very welcome.
>
> True.
> I wonder how fast those people could come up with graphically pleasing
> data for a Pipmak project.
>
>> I think the main problem at this time is that Pipmak is still
>> essentially a one-man project, which means that it progresses very
>> slowly, both on the feature front and the support/documentation  
>> front.
>
> True. Remember: slow progress is better than no progress. Up to now, I
> learned one thing: Honour the little achievements!
>
> cu
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Pip...@li...
> news://news.gmane.org/gmane.games.devel.pipmak.user
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/pipmak-users
>
> End of Pipmak-Users Digest

Liam Shannon
Creative Director
Fresh Cut Grass Advertising

22 Everett Street
Sherborn, MA 01770
(508)545-2125