From: Luke S. <lsc...@us...> - 2006-05-09 00:56:01
|
iAfter noticing that Ubuntu has several of gaim's translations patched, extending them, Jordi Mallach proposed that gaim may want to use rosetta, ubuntu's translation tool, as a means for managing po files in gaim. This would mean a change in how you all access the po files, and could well mean help in translating them, I'm unclear of the details here. Information on Rosetta can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Rosetta This move only minimally affects me, but would have a much more significant impact on you translators. So I'd like to leave this decision up to you. Can we please have an up or down vote, with votes to be mailed to the list by, say, Monday next week? If that does not sound reasonable, let me know. I have cc'ed Jordi, who should be able to answer any questions about rosetta. luke |
From: Shalom C. <scr...@gm...> - 2006-05-09 17:18:51
|
I vote "no". While I like the concept of Rosetta, I can't guarantee I'll make the effort needed to update my translations using their system. I've grown comfortable using my oddball setup, and I don't see any need to fix it. |
From: Clytie S. <cl...@ri...> - 2006-05-09 04:09:41
|
On 09/05/2006, at 1:50 AM, Luke Schierer wrote: > Information on Rosetta can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Rosetta > > This move only minimally affects me, but would have a much more > significant impact on you translators. So I'd like to leave this > decision up to you. Can we please have an up or down vote, with > votes to be mailed to the list by, say, Monday next week? If that > does not sound reasonable, let me know. Currently, I would not recommend using Rosetta. It still has serious access-control and quality-assurance issues. You do get more casual translators, but unless you have the tools to =20 manage that, and to make sure the translation is of sufficient =20 quality, that's more of a problem than an asset. Once these issues are resolved, it may well be a viable option for =20 individual projects. from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nh=C3=B3m = =20 Vi=E1=BB=87t h=C3=B3a ph=E1=BA=A7n m=E1=BB=81m t=E1=BB=B1 do) http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN |
From: Martin S. <mi...@fi...> - 2006-05-09 06:08:21
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Well, if you cannot fully explain what this would mean in terms of workflow and additional word or change of workflow for us localizers, then I cannot make a decision so I am fully against it. Lp, m. Luke Schierer pravi: > iAfter noticing that Ubuntu has several of gaim's translations > patched, extending them, Jordi Mallach proposed that gaim may want to > use rosetta, ubuntu's translation tool, as a means for managing po > files in gaim. > > This would mean a change in how you all access the po files, and > could well mean help in translating them, I'm unclear of the details > here. > > Information on Rosetta can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Rosetta > > This move only minimally affects me, but would have a much more > significant impact on you translators. So I'd like to leave this > decision up to you. Can we please have an up or down vote, with > votes to be mailed to the list by, say, Monday next week? If that > does not sound reasonable, let me know. > > I have cc'ed Jordi, who should be able to answer any questions about > rosetta. > > luke > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > Gaim-i18n mailing list > Gai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gaim-i18n > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEYDHDrWOw5NAxYd8RAoFAAJ9ICvtYdtKDQzTsECQ29XMLMAOEagCfVCLV 6cYnInowIfGmYdiHIfU5FFE= =tV65 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
From: M. <du...@gn...> - 2006-05-09 06:46:41
|
=CEn data de Lu 08 mai 06 la 19:20, Luke Schierer a scris: [snip] > This move only minimally affects me, but would have a much more > significant impact on you translators. So I'd like to leave this > decision up to you. Can we please have an up or down vote, with > votes to be mailed to the list by, say, Monday next week? If that > does not sound reasonable, let me know. Some reasons against Rosetta: 1) using Rosetta moves the translations away from Gaim to another site =20 where someone else maintains control 2) Rosetta is Ubuntu focused. Gaim is agnostic to Linux distributions =20 and should remain neutral to distributions and promote portability to =20 other operating systems besides Linux 3) translators that like Rosetta may use it and submit Gaim =20 translations upstream. Please don't force it to the others, for some of =20 us there's no need for yet another way of translating and yet another =20 login. [snip] I strongly oppose it. -- . /^)/_/(/ ' Thanks to Auke from the Xfce project for the arguments. |
From: Pål G. D. <pa...@dr...> - 2006-05-09 07:30:58
|
I strongly recommend it. Translating in launchpad.net will get a lot more people to work on it. -- Pål Grønås Drange |
From: Javier <jf...@co...> - 2006-05-09 07:39:27
|
On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 12:20:23PM -0400, Luke Schierer wrote: > iAfter noticing that Ubuntu has several of gaim's translations > patched, extending them, Jordi Mallach proposed that gaim may want to > use rosetta, ubuntu's translation tool, as a means for managing po > files in gaim. After reviewing Rosetta and it's usage of *my* Gaim translation I have to say that I'm quite against using it. There's no way to properly review what people have done to your translation (and believe me, mine has been changed without contacting me, even though I'm the upstream maintainer of the translation). Translations should be handled in Gaim's CVS (just as we do now) and the statistics provided currently are more than sufficient. If somebody wants a pretty web interface he could use Rosetta (or Pottle) for i18n/l10n work, but I'd rather not, I prefer using my own tools (emacs PO mode and diffutils) and have people send me patches when they find a translation bug (something that Rosetta fails to do). Regards Javier |
From: Peter H. <xa...@te...> - 2006-05-09 09:29:33
|
tis 2006-05-09 klockan 09:39 +0200 skrev Javier Fern=C3=A1ndez-Sanguino Pe= =C3=B1a: > On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 12:20:23PM -0400, Luke Schierer wrote: > > iAfter noticing that Ubuntu has several of gaim's translations > > patched, extending them, Jordi Mallach proposed that gaim may want to > > use rosetta, ubuntu's translation tool, as a means for managing po > > files in gaim. >=20 > After reviewing Rosetta and it's usage of *my* Gaim translation I have to= say > that I'm quite against using it. There's no way to properly review what > people have done to your translation (and believe me, mine has been chang= ed > without contacting me, even though I'm the upstream maintainer of the > translation). >=20 > Translations should be handled in Gaim's CVS (just as we do now) and the > statistics provided currently are more than sufficient. If somebody wants= a > pretty web interface he could use Rosetta (or Pottle) for i18n/l10n work,= but > I'd rather not, I prefer using my own tools (emacs PO mode and diffutils)= and > have people send me patches when they find a translation bug (something t= hat > Rosetta fails to do). >=20 > Regards >=20 > Javier >=20 I somewhat seconds that. It would require us to learn a new system. It seems like there is somewhat of a review system becouse I can't change anything, only suggest strings. And for me to "take control" that means we have to put the ones aside that are standing as translators currently. Second thing is that it only seems possible to translate against a ubuntu-release. And that is not always latest CVS leaving us with a translation task after release. It is possible I have misundertood the system, but one of my point is: a system you can misunderstand is a system you should not enforce on others. My 2 cents /Peter Hjalmarsson, head (and only) sv |
From: Erdal R. <erd...@gm...> - 2006-05-09 12:17:46
|
SGkgYWxsLAoKYSBsb3Qgb2YgdGhlIHByb2JsZW1zIGFkZHJlc3NlZCBoZXJlIHdvdWxkIGNoYW5n ZSBpZiBHQUlNIHdvdWxkIG9mZmljaWFsbHkKdXNlIFJvc2V0dGEuIEJlY2F1c2UgdGhlbiB0aGVy ZSB3b3VsZCBiZSBubyBtb3JlIGNvb3JkaW5hdGlvbiB3aXRoIHVwc3RyZWFtCmJlIHJlcXVpcmVk LCB0aGUgVWJ1bnR1IGZvY3VzIHdvdWxkIGJlIGdvbmUgYW5kIHRoZSByZXN0cmljdGlvbiBtYW5h Z2VtZW50CndvdWxkIGJlIGluIHlvdXIgaGFuZHMuCgpPdXIgdGVhbSBpcyBhbHJlYWR5IHVzaW5n IGl0LCBzbyBmcm9tIHVzIGEgY2xlYXIgc3VwcG9ydCBmb3IgdGhlIG1vdmUgdG8KUm9zZXR0YSEK CkVyZGFsIFJvbmFoaQpmb3IgdGhlIEt1cmRpc2ggdHJhbnNsYXRpb24gdGVhbQo= |
From: Jordi M. <jo...@si...> - 2006-05-09 20:49:27
|
Hi everyone! I'll try to answer some of the questions that have rised in the thread regarding Gaim's usage of Rosetta. What Rosetta offers to Luke is a simpler interface to manage translations. He just uses a webform to periodically update the Gaim pot file. Time passes, and he wants to release. He clicks on another button, and gets a nice tarball with all the work until that point. QA issues with Rosetta People have raised some concerns regarding QA on Rosetta. That's an ongoing debate on the Rosetta community, and the team has made that a priority fix for the next rosetta upgrades. Access permission to translations can be open or closed, and translations can be assigned to teams or be unassigned: if you're not a member of the translator team assigned to that translation template, you won't be able to translate the application. The main "QA problem" is oversized teams, or lack of team assignments. Until this point, people have been added blindly to teams when they requested getting in, resulting on some bad translators submitting bad new translations, or modifying valid strings. The teams are now aware of this, and we're working on ways to alleviate it. We normally encourage product owners (Luke, in this case) to use the "Ubuntu translators" teams, which are already taking care of translating the Ubuntu distribution. I don't know how the Gaim translation teams are structured, or how open they are. Can I go to the issue tracker and post a patch to Portuguese? Will that be accepted more or less blindly, or are there checks for the origin of that translation? Using the Ubuntu translators teams would mean joining a set of already-established teams which are already coordinated, have mailing lists, etc. It would also mean less control over who can translate Gaim, depending on the team. To address this, a possibility would be not to use the sometimes huge Ubuntu translator teams, but a newly created Gaim translators group which the leaders of the different language projects in this list could control at will (ie, moderated teams). What Rosetta would mean in terms of workflow changes Basically, Rosetta is a huge translation database. In front of it, there's an easy to use web interface to write the translations, which is very desirable for newbie translators, as it hides the PO format away, and makes it easy to translate from any computer, in any internet cafe, without specialised tools. My experience is that it has helped us getting translations from users of some Asian or African languages you normally don't see so easily around your average project. Rosetta won't try to enforce this web-based interface for experienced translators, though. You can also choose to download the PO from the site, hack on it offline with Emacs po-mode or KBabel and when you're done upload it back to the system, where it'll be merged to the current POT. In this case, the workflow changes a bit: right now I assume you fetch the merged POT files from SVN, work on it, and then Gzip it and attach it to SF trackers for LSchiere to take a look every now and then. With rosetta, it'd mean requesting an export of your file, working on it using your editor, and uploading it back using a webform. No issue trackers. More stuff: Mi=C5=9Fu Moldovan says using Rosetta would move Gaim to a site not controlled by the project. I don't think that's too different from using SourceForge, though. Also, Canonical guarantees the availability of the translation work submitted to Rosetta via translation exports. Still, this is a service operated by humans, and things might break, as they do in SF (the mail archive of this mailing list isn't being archived, for example). He also raises a concern about the Ubuntucentricity of Launchpad/Rosetta. LP has a number of features, some of them focused on controlling the making of a professional distribution like Ubuntu. This means that part of Rosetta is thought to serve this purpose. It's not Ubuntu centric, though. There are plans to host other non-Ubuntu related distributions in the system, AFAIK. There's two places where Rosetta holds translation templates: the "distros" and "products" tree. =20 Distro trees can track the templates for a number of distributions. Currently, it holds old versions of gaim, specifically the very exact templates that were released with past Ubuntu releases (this is because Ubuntu translations can be updated months after the distribution release via language packs). For example, here's the version that will be released with the next release, dapper: <https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/gaim/+pots/gaim> Only the Ubuntu gaim maintainer controls when this template changes, and it does when a new package enters the distribution's archive. There's also the "products" trees, which are controlled by the owners of a product. In our case, LSchiere would control it, and would be able to upload any template (SVN trunk, etc) whenever he likes. <https://launchpad.net/products/gaim> (you'll see the Gaim product already exists, registered by someone. That would be transfered to the correct owner, of course). We're working on a feature that will make it easy to share all the translations between a "gaim template" in the product series tree and in any of the distro trees the translator has permissions to write to. I hope this addresses most of the doubts in the thread. Thanks, Jordi --=20 Jordi Mallach P=C3=A9rez -- Debian developer http://www.debian.org/ jo...@si... jo...@de... http://www.sindominio.net/ GnuPG public key information available at http://oskuro.net/ |
From: Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...> - 2006-05-10 07:46:14
|
Luke Schierer <lsc...@us...> wrote: > After noticing that Ubuntu has several of gaim's translations > patched, extending them, Jordi Mallach proposed that gaim may want to > use rosetta, ubuntu's translation tool, as a means for managing po > files in gaim. I think Rosetta is an interesting translation system and I think Gaim could benefit from it very much. I see Rosetta a bit like a Wiki system for translations. As I already said on other discussions Gaim's i18 system has some specials (see http://gaim.sourceforge.net/i18n): (1) we have a big amount of translations=20 (2) we have some very active translators (~100% translation ratio) (3) we have many unmaintained translations (low translation ratio) (4) we have some maintained translations with a low translation ratio (5) Gaim's source and such Gaim's i18n strings change relatively often (6) some i18n strings are difficult to translate (because of technical terms, idioms, jokes, missing comments etc. - look at the discussion "[Gaim-i18n] Bad language in Gaim") (7) translators have no write access to Gaim's i18n files in SF's subversion repository I think Rosetta can help the Gaim project to deal with this specials. I think Rosetta can improve the specials 1, 3-7. In the discussion I see, that some active translators (2) don't see benefits for their translation work. I understand this a bit as an active translator. The translators had a lot of work with their translations. In Rosetta they lose a bit control for their translation and they have to learn a new tool. I also see reviewing as a problem. But to be honest, reviewing of translations isn't comfortable - in technical sense - with normal gettext tools too. The translators which work in a team of 2-3 people know from what I am talking. The main problem is that "diff" doesn't work good with .po file changes. Each msgmerge/intltool-update call can change the line numbers in .po file comments. This makes finding real changes difficult. Also parallel work on translations is not supported with normal gettext tools. With Jochen Kemnade I build a difficult system with an additional subversion translation repository and some update shell scripts for the German translation. Reviewing is difficult anyway (currently we do this with stripping comments - something like "grep -v '#' de.po" - and diffing - "diff -u de-without-comments.po de-other-translator-without-comments.po"). > This would mean a change in how you all access the po files, and could > well mean help in translating them, I'm unclear of the details here. But as Jordi said direct work with po files is also available in Rosetta. I think we should start with unmaintained translations in Rosetta. Also the translators which voted with "yes" should have the change to work with Rosetta. How we can get better acceptance from the translators which votes with "no"? Isn't it possible to have 1-man/woman closed teams in Rosetta? So the chances for these translators are minimal. Greetings, Bj=F6rn |
From: Peter H. <xa...@te...> - 2006-05-10 07:58:06
|
Is it possible for a translator to only use rosetta as a upload facility for the po kind of like we are using the translation bug tracker on sf.net currently? |
From: Erdal R. <erd...@gm...> - 2006-05-10 11:44:21
|
SGksCgpJIHRoaW5rIHRoZSB0ZWFtcyB0aGF0IHZvdGVkICJubyIgY2FuIHdlbGwgdXNlIFJvc2V0 dGEncyByZXN0cmljdGlvbiBzeXN0ZW0KYW5kIHNldCB0aGVpciBsYW5ndWFnZSBhcyAiY2xvc2Vk Iiwgd29yayBvbiB0aGVpciBwby1maWxlcyBhbmQgdXNlIFJvc2V0dGEKanVzdCBsaWtlIHRoZSBz b3VyY2Vmb3JnZSB0cmFja2VyIHN5c3RlbSBhbmQgdXBsb2FkIGEgcG8gbm93IGFuZCB0aGVuLiBU aGF0CndvdWxkIG5vdCBiZSBtdWNoIG9mIGEgY2hhbmdlLgoKUmVnYXJkcywKRXJkYWwKCjIwMDYv NS8xMCwgUGV0ZXIgSGphbG1hcnNzb24gPHhha2VAdGVsaWEuY29tPjoKPgo+IElzIGl0IHBvc3Np YmxlIGZvciBhIHRyYW5zbGF0b3IgdG8gb25seSB1c2Ugcm9zZXR0YSBhcyBhIHVwbG9hZCBmYWNp bGl0eQo+IGZvciB0aGUgcG8ga2luZCBvZiBsaWtlIHdlIGFyZSB1c2luZyB0aGUgdHJhbnNsYXRp b24gYnVnIHRyYWNrZXIgb24KPiBzZi5uZXQgY3VycmVudGx5Pwo+Cj4KPiAtLS0tLUJFR0lOIFBH UCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo+IFZlcnNpb246IEdudVBHIHYxLjQuMyAoR05VL0xpbnV4KQo+Cj4g aUQ4REJRQkVZWjBBbG5pMTUwamNDVVFSQWw2SEFKOVJEK0xJT3lrSVU1Y2J5L29iVHBOQWtpdGFZ QUNnclp3OQo+IERqSk1FbGY2YWJWTklGaW52dnRKVkRVPQo+ID1GSW1KCj4gLS0tLS1FTkQgUEdQ IFNJR05BVFVSRS0tLS0tCj4KPgo+Cg== |
From: M. <du...@gn...> - 2006-05-10 14:00:42
|
=CEn data de Mi 10 mai 06 la 13:40, Erdal Ronahi a scris: > Hi, >=20 > I think the teams that voted "no" can well use Rosetta's restriction =20 > system and set their language as "closed", work on their po-files and =20 > use Rosetta just like the sourceforge tracker system and upload a po =20 > now and then. That would not be much of a change. >=20 > Regards, > Erdal >=20 This should be the default. The access to a translation should be opened by the maintainer himself/herself. Only unmaintained =20 translations should be excepted to this rule. I don't want newbies changing some strings just because I was not quick =20 enough to lock the access to Gaim's Romanian translation in Rosetta. =20 I've been updating and perfecting this work since 2002 and I don't =20 trust someone new. I wouldn't trust the translator that I was in 2002, =20 that's for sure... -- . /^)/_/(/ ' |