pidgin-i18n

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...>]

Bjoern Voigt spake unto us the following wisdom:
> To make it clear: I don't think that only the translators have problems=
=20
> with the discussed strings. Probably also many English users have=20
> problems with them. The survey results show this - many false or=20
> improper answers. Normally a translation can not be better than the=20
> original.

Let's back up the horsie a bit ... where were the "many false or
improper answers" ?  I think you're making things up again, and quite
frankly I'm getting tired of it.

> By the way: The user who asked me some weeks ago what does "You feel a=20
> disturbance in the force..." in Gaim mean was someone with very good=20
> English knowledge and some computer and instant messaging experience.=20
> The user lived 10 years in Canada and learned English in a Canadian schoo=
l.

One data point does not make a trend.

Ethan

--=20
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Isriya P. <mar...@gm...>]

On 4/25/06, Richard Laager <rl...@wi...> wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 09:32 +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote:
>
> I said I expect translators to fully understand what they're
> translating. If it's not obvious and there aren't comments (which, I
> agree, there could be more), then ask. I don't think that's unreasonable
> at all. Ask about the string here.
>
> You asked. That was exactly what I was suggesting.
>
> My other point was that we're not always going to change the English
> strings to make literal translations easy. If Gaim was written in German
> and you used German idioms, I wouldn't expect you to change it to make
> the English translation easier. I'd figure out what it meant and then
> translate it into something appropriate.

I think this is not only i18n/translation issue, it's about usability
issue. If developers and translators have to discuss so long as in
this thread, that means those strings should have some problems.

Since gaim becomes mainstream IM apps gradually, it's time to improve
usability of string, even for US users which don't need the
translation.

>
> > 1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in src/gtkaccount.c:=
1297?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> It's in a callback function that's registered as a pop-up handler for
> the port entry field in proxy options. Right-click on that field and
> you'll see the string. I'd assume easter egg. (NOTE: I had never seen
> this code before I looked at it just now.)
>
> If I was a translator, I probably wouldn't bother with it. Or, I'd take
> the opportunity to translate it to a cutesy saying in my language and
> enjoy the fact that I know there's a "hidden" string which I created.
>
> > 2) Why is Syd Logan a "lazy bum" in AUTHORS and in src/gtkdialogs.c:100=
?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> I've always assumed inside joke.
>
> > 3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> Without looking, I'd assume a server for the TOC protocol.
>
> > 4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and =
src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> The process of negotiating an SSL connection failed. This is standard
> technical jargon.
>
> > 5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c?
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> Without looking, I'm not sure if channel means chat or a communications
> channel (the connection). But HMAC is a standard technical term.
>
> ... Looking at the source, it's immediately clear (given Channel Topic
> is right there) that this is talking about a "channel" as in "chat".
>
> > 6) What does ""You feel a disturbance in the force..." in plugins/psych=
ic.c means?
>
> Feels like a Star Wars quote to me and Google confirms that. (NOTE: I'm
> probably in the minority of Americans here, but I've never seen any of
> the Star Wars movies.)
>
> If you knew, or could find, the translation of that quote in Star Wars
> for your language, that might work. Otherwise, this type of cultural
> reference is hard to deal with. If you can't think of a fun cultural
> reference that users of your translation will understand, I'd suggest
> using a translated version of something boring like, "Your psychic
> powers say you are about to receive a message." or something.
>
> > 7) Why Ethan calls the psychic plugin a stalker plugin?
> >
> >    "If we're going to support crappy stalker-enablement plugins, we sho=
uld at least make an effort to ensure that they don't require C99."
> >
> >    (from  svn log plugins/psychic.c)
> >
> >    Answer:
>
> Because it pops up a conversation window when someone starts typing to
> you have not previously had a conversation open. There's hardly a
> legitimate need for that -- you'll be getting the message in a few
> seconds when they send it.
>
>
> I can't find any good documentation on adding "translation comments" to
> gettext. I see them mentioned all over the place, especially in
> reference to .po files, but I don't know how to add them. Granted, I
> haven't looked that hard. If someone has a reference, we could add a
> translation comment to #6 and maybe #2.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job ea=
sier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronim=
o
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=3D120709&bid=3D263057&dat=
=3D121642
> _______________________________________________
> Gaim-i18n mailing list
> Gai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gaim-i18n
>

[Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...>]

Ethan Blanton wrote:
> Let's back up the horsie a bit ... where were the "many false or
> improper answers" ?  I think you're making things up again, and quite
> frankly I'm getting tired of it.
Ok, ok. Let's write down a master solution. I do not review every single =

answer here and give points etc. :-) I counted four people which solved=20
the survey. One of them did not wrote his message on this list. Thanks=20
for all which filled out this survey.

Look, the survey contained 6 strings and one SVN comment. How long you=20
needed for the survey (incl. discussion, Google searching, source code=20
viewing etc.)? I needed around 30 min for collecting the ansers.

Gaim has corrently 2578 i18n strings! The majority of them are not so=20
difficult. But please don't make the translation task too hard.


Master solution:
> 1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in=20
> src/gtkaccount.c:1297?
Best answer:

    Richard wrote: "It's in a callback function that's registered as a
    pop-up handler for the port entry field in proxy options.
    Right-click on that field and you'll see the string. I'd assume
    easter egg. (NOTE: I had never seen this code before I looked at it
    just now.)"

    Unfortunately I was not able to test it. Right-clicking on the port
    entry field shows a popup menu. But this popup menu only contains
    GTK+ things (cut, copy, paste, Input methods etc.), nothing about
    butterflies. May be it's "dead code" :-(

> 2) Why is Syd Logan a "lazy bum" in AUTHORS and in src/gtkdialogs.c:100=
?
Best Answer:

    Rob Flynn introduced the "lazy bum" comment on Syd Logan in the
    AUTHORS file at 03/17/2001. He didn't wrote an useful CVS comment
    for this change. So it's unclear, why he wrote it. Shalom thinks
    "Because he stopped working on Gaim :-)". Luke thinks "Oh, and then
    he went to AOL to work on winaim. He deserves some grief for that
    :-P " Probably only Rob knows the right answer.

> 3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c?
Best Answer:

    Ambrose Li said: "A TOC server. TOC is an AIM protocol. A host is a
    computer. Literally a computer talking the TOC protocol, but the
    context requires it to be a server, and in the DOS/Windows world
    (since this is AIM) the word "host" traditionally only refers to
    servers."

> 4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and =

> src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean?
Best Answer:

    Richard wrote: "The process of negotiating an SSL connection failed."=

    Read this long SSL handshake description from Microsoft
    http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q257591/
    (Netscape made the SSL protocol and more detailed information can be
    found there.)


> 5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c?
Best Answer:

    Ambrose Li wrote: "Short answer (looking at my po file): Some kind of=
 user authentication token
    for the channel"
    Richard wrote: "... Looking at the source, it's immediately clear (gi=
ven Channel Topic
    is right there) that this is talking about a "channel" as in "chat"."=


    I personally think that the channel HMAC is a unique id for a chat ch=
annel. It's possible to calculate such an unique id with the HMAC-MD5 or =
HZMAC-SHA1 digest algorithms.

    But to be honest, I don't know, who has the right answer. Help yourse=
lf:
     =20

        * http://silcnet.org/docs/toolkit/silchmac.html

        *

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAC


> 6) What does ""You feel a disturbance in the force..." in=20
> plugins/psychic.c means?
Best Answer:

    It has two meanings.
    First meaning: Richard wrote: "Feels like a Star Wars quote to me
    and Google confirms that."
    Second meaning: I wrote: "If a buddy begins to type a message to you
    a conversation window appears (with this message)"


> 7) Why Ethan calls the psychic plugin a stalker plugin?
>
>   "If we're going to support crappy stalker-enablement plugins, we=20
> should at least make an effort to ensure that they don't require C99."
>
>   (from  svn log plugins/psychic.c)
Best Answer:

    Luke wrote: "The psychic mode plugin detects that someone is _about_
    to send you a message. more technically, it catches the typing
    notification being sent as they type the first message, before you
    have (short of the plugin) seen anything to indicate their
    attention. It isn't quitethe same as the stalker behaviors above."


Greetings, Bj=F6rn

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...>]

Bjoern Voigt spake unto us the following wisdom:
> Ethan Blanton wrote:
> >Let's back up the horsie a bit ... where were the "many false or
> >improper answers" ?  I think you're making things up again, and quite
> >frankly I'm getting tired of it.
> Ok, ok. Let's write down a master solution. I do not review every single=
=20
> answer here and give points etc. :-) I counted four people which solved=
=20
> the survey. One of them did not wrote his message on this list. Thanks=20
> for all which filled out this survey.
>=20
> Look, the survey contained 6 strings and one SVN comment. How long you=20
> needed for the survey (incl. discussion, Google searching, source code=20
> viewing etc.)? I needed around 30 min for collecting the ansers.

If we're keeping score (which I guess we aren't, because the scores
are meaningless), it took me about 30 seconds to answer it completely
and correctly when I read your first email.

> Gaim has corrently 2578 i18n strings! The majority of them are not so=20
> difficult. But please don't make the translation task too hard.

Please don't ask us to make Gaim poorer because some strings don't
have an immediate naive and correct translation.  :-P

> Master solution:
> >1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in=20
> >src/gtkaccount.c:1297?
> Best answer:
>=20
>    Richard wrote: "It's in a callback function that's registered as a
>    pop-up handler for the port entry field in proxy options.
>    Right-click on that field and you'll see the string. I'd assume
>    easter egg. (NOTE: I had never seen this code before I looked at it
>    just now.)"
>=20
>    Unfortunately I was not able to test it. Right-clicking on the port
>    entry field shows a popup menu. But this popup menu only contains
>    GTK+ things (cut, copy, paste, Input methods etc.), nothing about
>    butterflies. May be it's "dead code" :-(

It's not, it works fine on my machine.  I don't know why yours doesn't.

> >3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c?
> Best Answer:
>=20
>    Ambrose Li said: "A TOC server. TOC is an AIM protocol. A host is a
>    computer. Literally a computer talking the TOC protocol, but the
>    context requires it to be a server, and in the DOS/Windows world
>    (since this is AIM) the word "host" traditionally only refers to
>    servers."

So, what do you propose we change here?  TOC is a technical term for
which any euphemism is only going to make things worse, not better.

> >4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 and=
=20
> >src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean?
> Best Answer:
>=20
>    Richard wrote: "The process of negotiating an SSL connection failed."
>    Read this long SSL handshake description from Microsoft
>    http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q257591/
>    (Netscape made the SSL protocol and more detailed information can be
>    found there.)

Again, what would you propose we change here?  The Windows/OSX/GNOME
solution might be "just tell the user the connection failed, they
don't need to know why", but this is not acceptable to me.
"Handshake" is a technical term which is being used correctly.  It is
not clear to me that there is a better translation for this, either.

> >5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c?
> Best Answer:
>=20
>    Ambrose Li wrote: "Short answer (looking at my po file): Some kind of=
=20
>    user authentication token
>    for the channel"
>    Richard wrote: "... Looking at the source, it's immediately clear (giv=
en=20
>    Channel Topic
>    is right there) that this is talking about a "channel" as in "chat"."
>=20
>    I personally think that the channel HMAC is a unique id for a chat=20
>    channel. It's possible to calculate such an unique id with the HMAC-MD=
5=20
>    or HZMAC-SHA1 digest algorithms.

That's not at all the case ... HMAC is, once again, a technical term
with a specific meaning.  (Basically, a keyed hash function, such that
two parties who have agreed on a shared secret can authenticate a
chunk of data of arbitrary size by calculating a MAC across it and
some function of the secret.)  A third time, removing this bit of text
removes important information that clueful users may be able to make
sense of.  What would you suggest?

I think we're wasting a lot of time here to come to the conclusion
that some strings are just hard to translate.  :-P

Ethan

--=20
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764

[Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...>]

Good morning all!

Ethan Blanton wrote:
> If we're keeping score (which I guess we aren't, because the scores are=
 meaningless), it took me about 30 seconds to answer it completely and co=
rrectly when I read your first email.
>  =20
But I don't wanted to make a survey with multiple choice answers. I=20
wanted to make a test which shows you (especially the developers) how=20
much work it can be to translate i18n strings in Gaim. Translating is=20
not like filling out a multiple choice test. Translating with Gettext is =

instead:

   1. search the an untranslated or fuzzy string (.po file editors make
      this with a key or menu item)
   2. decide, if it's possible to translate the string directly or with
      using the context
          * directly: translate it
          * with context: display the source code, search for comments
            there (you can skip this task because in the majority of
            cases there aren't comments!), search for explanation in the
            web, in Google, discuss here, in #gaim etc.
   3. spell check the translated string
   4. go to the next string (step 1)
   5. check the whole translation (syntax checks, compilation of Gaim,
      usage tests, test key strokes etc.)

Ethan, do you ever translated with Gettext tools?

I think a complete translation takes much time. The German Gaim 1.5.0 to =

2.0.0 translation caused some days work for two translators (Jochen=20
Kemnade and me). I think more context information (i18n comments in the=20
source) and some string changes for bad and too technical strings would=20
speed up the translations and would improve our motivation.

To see the current motivation of us translators look at:=20
http://gaim.sourceforge.net/i18n/

One problem is that we don't find new translators for the outdated=20
translations.

> > Master solution:
> > >1) What means "you can see the butterflies mating" in=20
> > >src/gtkaccount.c:1297?
> > Best answer:
> >=20
> >    Richard wrote: "It's in a callback function that's registered as a=

> >    pop-up handler for the port entry field in proxy options.
> >    Right-click on that field and you'll see the string. I'd assume
> >    easter egg. (NOTE: I had never seen this code before I looked at i=
t
> >    just now.)"
> >=20
> >    Unfortunately I was not able to test it. Right-clicking on the por=
t
> >    entry field shows a popup menu. But this popup menu only contains
> >    GTK+ things (cut, copy, paste, Input methods etc.), nothing about
> >    butterflies. May be it's "dead code" :-(
>
> It's not, it works fine on my machine.  I don't know why yours doesn't.=

>  =20
Ambrose Li wrote me an instruction (thanks Ambrose Li):

: You need to -
:=20
: - go to the Accounts window,
: - add/modify an account
: - make sure that proxy setting is "HTTP" (or maybe something else but
:   it has to has a "Proxy Port")
: - expand the proxy settings, then
: - right-click inside the text field of the "Proxy Port".


This works (I can see the butterflies). :-)

> > >3) What is a "TOC host" in src/protocols/toc/toc.c?
> > Best Answer:
> >=20
> >    Ambrose Li said: "A TOC server. TOC is an AIM protocol. A host is =
a
> >    computer. Literally a computer talking the TOC protocol, but the
> >    context requires it to be a server, and in the DOS/Windows world
> >    (since this is AIM) the word "host" traditionally only refers to
> >    servers."
>
> So, what do you propose we change here?  TOC is a technical term for
> which any euphemism is only going to make things worse, not better.
>  =20
I didn't say that we should change all these strings. A comment for the=20
translators would be good here. The "TOC" plugin is not compiled by=20
default. So it's nearly useless to have to translate the TOC strings.

> > >4) What does "SSL Handshake Failed" in src/protocols/irc/irc.c:432 a=
nd=20
> > >src/protocols/jabber/jabber.c:451 mean?
> > Best Answer:
> >=20
> >    Richard wrote: "The process of negotiating an SSL connection faile=
d."
> >    Read this long SSL handshake description from Microsoft
> >    http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q257591/
> >    (Netscape made the SSL protocol and more detailed information can =
be
> >    found there.)
>
> Again, what would you propose we change here?  The Windows/OSX/GNOME
> solution might be "just tell the user the connection failed, they
> don't need to know why", but this is not acceptable to me.
> "Handshake" is a technical term which is being used correctly.  It is
> not clear to me that there is a better translation for this, either.
>  =20
I repeat: I didn't say that we should change all these strings. A=20
comment for the translators would be good here.

> > >5) What is a "Channel HMAC" in src/protocols/silc/chat.c?
> > Best Answer:
> >=20
> >    Ambrose Li wrote: "Short answer (looking at my po file): Some kind=
 of=20
> >    user authentication token
> >    for the channel"
> >    Richard wrote: "... Looking at the source, it's immediately clear =
(given=20
> >    Channel Topic
> >    is right there) that this is talking about a "channel" as in "chat=
"."
> >=20
> >    I personally think that the channel HMAC is a unique id for a chat=
=20
> >    channel. It's possible to calculate such an unique id with the HMA=
C-MD5=20
> >    or HZMAC-SHA1 digest algorithms.
>
> That's not at all the case ... HMAC is, once again, a technical term
> with a specific meaning.  (Basically, a keyed hash function, such that
> two parties who have agreed on a shared secret can authenticate a
> chunk of data of arbitrary size by calculating a MAC across it and
> some function of the secret.)  A third time, removing this bit of text
> removes important information that clueful users may be able to make
> sense of.  What would you suggest?
>  =20
Thanks for explanation. I can not suggest anything here now. May be we=20
should look at other SILC clients.

Looking at other IM projects and their translation can be interesting=20
for us. Kopete for instance also has 2765 i18n strings (~2578 Gaim). So=20
the amount of strings is not the main special problem in Gaim-i18n. You=20
may not want to hear it, but Gaim's i18n strings are much more technical =

compared with Kopete. I also searched for difficult or deep-technical=20
i18n strings in Kopete but I didn't found much good examples. To be=20
honest, i18n comments are also seldom in Kopete - not good. Look yourself=
:

http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/l10n/en_GB/messages/kdenetwork/kopete.po?rev=3D=
519677&view=3Dmarkup=20
(British English)

> I think we're wasting a lot of time here to come to the conclusion that=
 some strings are just hard to translate.  :-P
>  =20
I can partially agree with your conclusion. But what is your suggested=20
action?

Do nothing (no additional context information - comments in the source,=20
no string changes etc.)? If yes, not Syd Logan is the lazy bum, but=20
Ethan Blanton. You can also call people "conservative" which are not=20
willing to make changes. ;-)

Read again what Clytie Siddall, Ambrose Li, Isriya Paireepairit, Vincas=20
=C4=8Ci=C5=BEi=C5=ABnas and me sgested to change.

Greetings, Bj=C3=B6rn

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[M. <du...@gn...>]

=CEn data de Mi, 26 apr 06 la 11:18, Bjoern Voigt a scris:

[snip]

> Ethan, do you ever translated with Gettext tools?

Stop it right there, man. This is a silly argument in sloppy English. =20
Everyone's time is limited and in particular, when it's all about a =20
free software project, we should care more about not wasting other =20
people's precious time. I don't question your good intentions but this =20
thread has gone far too far.


> I think a complete translation takes much time. The German Gaim 1.5.0 =20
> to 2.0.0 translation caused some days work for two translators =20
> (Jochen Kemnade and me). I think more context information (i18n =20
> comments in the source) and some string changes for bad and too =20
> technical strings would speed up the translations and would improve =20
> our motivation.

I agree with you, it took a lot of time for me too. However, creatively =20
translating the "butterfly mating" and "star wars" strings turned out =20
to be refreshing interludes in what was mostly a quite boring process. =20
And yes, cookies are delicious delicacies :P


> To see the current motivation of us translators look at: =20
> http://gaim.sourceforge.net/i18n/
>=20
> One problem is that we don't find new translators for the outdated =20
> translations.

Who's "we"? And why are "you" looking for more translators? The =20
statistics reflect the reality, as far as I know. Are "you" looking to =20
construct a different "reality"? One in which Gaim is translated in =20
1000+ languages including Sanskrit, Elvish and Klingon?

[snip]

--
     .
/^)/_/(/
     '

[Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...>]

Mi=C5=9Fu Moldovan wrote:
> Stop it right there, man. This is a silly argument in sloppy English.=20
> Everyone's time is limited and in particular, when it's all about a=20
> free software project, we should care more about not wasting other=20
> people's precious time. I don't question your good intentions but this =

> thread has gone far too far.
What wastes more time? A long discussion without any results (without=20
any improvements for translators) or a (may be shorter) discussion with=20
good results for translators?

Misu, do you want that I stop writing here and give away the German=20
translation task? May be I should really think about this. I also worked =

for other open source projects with more success and more fun...

>> To see the current motivation of us translators look at:=20
>> http://gaim.sourceforge.net/i18n/
>>
>> One problem is that we don't find new translators for the outdated=20
>> translations.
>
> Who's "we"? And why are "you" looking for more translators? The=20
> statistics reflect the reality, as far as I know. Are "you" looking to =

> construct a different "reality"? One in which Gaim is translated in=20
> 1000+ languages including Sanskrit, Elvish and Klingon?
What?? I don't want to have Gaim translated in 1000+ languages!

Currently 21 translations have more than 90% translated strings. We have =

55 languages at all. (source: http://gaim.sf.net/i18n/)

Important European languages like Bulgarian (your neighbor country),=20
Norwegian and Ukrainian don't have more than 90% translated strings in Ga=
im!

So don't tell me I want to have exotic translations for Gaim!

Greetings, Bj=C3=B6rn

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[M. <du...@gn...>]

=CEn data de Mi, 26 apr 06 la 12:28, Bjoern Voigt a scris:
> Mi=BAu Moldovan wrote:
>> Stop it right there, man. This is a silly argument in sloppy =20
>> English. Everyone's time is limited and in particular, when it's all =20
>> about a free software project, we should care more about not wasting =20
>> other people's precious time. I don't question your good intentions =20
>> but this thread has gone far too far.
> What wastes more time? A long discussion without any results (without =20
> any improvements for translators) or a (may be shorter) discussion =20
> with good results for translators?
>=20
> Misu, do you want that I stop writing here and give away the German =20
> translation task? May be I should really think about this. I also =20
> worked for other open source projects with more success and more =20
> fun...

Take it easy, man... I meant you to stop trolling around in an endless =20
thread after so many developers have already explained their point of =20
view. And stop wasting other people's time. I have invested already too =20
much in this thread by just reading all of it and by responding twice. =20
I won't go further.

And happy translating too you all. I don't give a sh*t about Gaim being =20
translated in the languages of the countries near Romania, I only care =20
about one translation, the Romanian one. I know some of the people from =20
the Balkans involved in the i18n of free software and I very much =20
respect them and their work but I don't really care if Gaim is =20
translated by them or not.

--
     .
/^)/_/(/
     '

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...>]

Bjoern Voigt spake unto us the following wisdom:
> >I think we're wasting a lot of time here to come to the conclusion that=
=20
> >some strings are just hard to translate.  :-P
> > =20
> I can partially agree with your conclusion. But what is your suggested=20
> action?

Please read my previous emails.  I spent quite some time composing them.

> Do nothing (no additional context information - comments in the source,=
=20
> no string changes etc.)? If yes, not Syd Logan is the lazy bum, but=20
> Ethan Blanton. You can also call people "conservative" which are not=20
> willing to make changes. ;-)

This comment is quite unfair to me, as you should know if you have been
following this thread.  I sent quite a long reply to one of your
previous emails asking precisely how we can help, and suggesting that
we should perhaps make a more concerted effort to comment strings
which have caused translators difficulty in the past.  To then turn
around and suggest that I want to do nothing because I am either a
lazy bum or too "conservative" is rather offensive to me, and
reinforces my belief that this whole thread is about whining, not
fixing things.  I *want* to help fix things -- your original email
said "we need to change these strings, they're {hard to
translate,unbusinesslike,whatever}", and I pushed back against that
saying "these strings are OK, there may be bad strings, but these
aren't they ... how can we make this better?"  This seems perfectly
reasonable to me.

> Read again what Clytie Siddall, Ambrose Li, Isriya Paireepairit, Vincas=
=20
> =C4=8Ci=C5=BEi=C5=ABnas and me sgested to change.

I saw no specific constructive suggestions for change, except you
wanting to remove cultural references, jokes, and flavor from Gaim.
Forgive me if I missed something.

I think it is clear (at this point) that there should be a comment in
the psychic plugin explaining in some abstract sense what a
disturbance in the force is, a comment in the TOC plugin explaining
that TOC is a protocol and the TOC plugin is no longer compiled (I
believe the latter is already in place?), and a comment above the
butterflies mating that indicates that that string is nonsensical and
need not be translated.  Other than that, what we need to solve are
*technical* problems with the process, which is what several
developers have tried to come around to and been ignored.  This
situation isn't going to get better if there isn't give and take,
here.

I think the most immediate solution which presents itself is to have
comments inserted in the source near strings which prove to be
problematic; if, after examination, it appears that the strings are
needlessly complicated, we can make an effort to change them on a
case-by-case basis.  A beneficial step in this direction may be for
translation clarification questions to be asked on this list (some
have been, in the past) so that other translators and developers are
aware that the questions have been asked.  This might also give us a
feel for which phrases are actually generally difficult to translate,
and which phrases may just run across an unfortunate idiom in a
particular target language.

Ethan

--=20
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Bad language in Gaim

[Clytie S. <cl...@ri...>]

On 25/04/2006, at 1:14 PM, Richard Laager wrote:

> On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 12:58 +0930, Clytie Siddall wrote:
>> You can't expect translators to know what you mean, especially if the
>> string is unusual in some way.
>
> If you encounter a string you don't understand, you should ask =20
> about it.
> In this particular case, I can see why people would argue we should
> change the string. But, what about the case of "Handshaking" not
> translating cleanly into PT_pt? Surely we shouldn't change our =20
> string to
> work around that. If we had to change strings to make them unambiguous
> for every language, we'd have a mess.

I think there is a sensible compromise. If a string is normal =20
language, which you would expect the average user to understand, then =20=

you can also expect us to understand it. If it is not normal =20
language, if it's more technical, more idiomatic or more obtuse, then =20=

you need to supply context.

If there is an issue with a string and a particular language, then =20
certainly that translator will try to deal with it. If there are =20
cultural difficulties, we will advise you of them. That is part of =20
our job. However, that part of our job is not actually useful unless =20
you pay attention to our advice. ;)
>
>> You also can't expect them to
>> understand social nuances of your culture. All you will get is
>> ignored strings and/or a lower quality of translation.
>
> Getting back to this case... If "lazy bum" is a strong insult in your
> language, then don't translate it literally. If there's no appropriate
> translation, you could translate that portion of the string to the =20
> empty
> string.

Again, you're expecting us to know what you mean. How do we know that =20=

you're not insulting this person seriously? The fact that you're =20
insulting him at all is confusing to us.
>
> If you take the approach of "I'll translate everything (often =20
> literally)
> without understanding it", you're going to end up with a bad =20
> translation
> that results in user complaints. It's entirely reasonable for us (and
> users) to expect that translators fully understand what they're
> translating.

Yes indeed. That's why you supply context with obtuse strings, so we =20
have enough information to understand fully what we're translating.

We all want to produce high-quality translations. However, our =20
translations can only reflect the quality of the original text.

from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nh=C3=B3m =
=20
Vi=E1=BB=87t h=C3=B3a ph=E1=BA=A7n m=E1=BB=81m t=E1=BB=B1 do)
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN

[Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...>]

Clytie Siddall wrote:
> I think there is a sensible compromise. If a string is normal=20
> language, which you would expect the average user to understand, then=20
> you can also expect us to understand it. If it is not normal language, =

> if it's more technical, more idiomatic or more obtuse, then you need=20
> to supply context.
>
> If there is an issue with a string and a particular language, then=20
> certainly that translator will try to deal with it. If there are=20
> cultural difficulties, we will advise you of them. That is part of our =

> job. However, that part of our job is not actually useful unless you=20
> pay attention to our advice. ;)
[...]
> Again, you're expecting us to know what you mean. How do we know that=20
> you're not insulting this person seriously? The fact that you're=20
> insulting him at all is confusing to us.
[...]
> Yes indeed. That's why you supply context with obtuse strings, so we=20
> have enough information to understand fully what we're translating.
>
> We all want to produce high-quality translations. However, our=20
> translations can only reflect the quality of the original text.
>
> from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nh=C3=B3=
m=20
> Vi=E1=BB=87t h=C3=B3a ph=E1=BA=A7n m=E1=BB=81m t=E1=BB=B1 do)
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN

Yes, thank you very much. I fully support Clytie's suggestions.

Greetings, Bj=C3=B6rn

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Bad language in Gaim

[<vi...@ci...>]

On Apr 25, 2006, at 5:37 AM, Clytie Siddall wrote:
> I think there is a sensible compromise. If a string is normal  
> language, which you would expect the average user to understand,  
> then you can also expect us to understand it. If it is not normal  
> language, if it's more technical, more idiomatic or more obtuse,  
> then you need to supply context.
>

(Most) Developers are not linguists.  To many of them, idioms do  
constitute 'normal language'.


> If there is an issue with a string and a particular language, then  
> certainly that translator will try to deal with it. If there are  
> cultural difficulties, we will advise you of them. That is part of  
> our job. However, that part of our job is not actually useful  
> unless you pay attention to our advice. ;)

I agree with you here.  If an expression seems overly colorful  
(idiomatic) to you, or insulting, bring it up, which is what Bjoern  
did.  That is the purpose for which this mailing list exists.



>>
>> Getting back to this case... If "lazy bum" is a strong insult in your
>> language, then don't translate it literally. If there's no  
>> appropriate
>> translation, you could translate that portion of the string to the  
>> empty
>> string.
>
> Again, you're expecting us to know what you mean. How do we know  
> that you're not insulting this person seriously? The fact that  
> you're insulting him at all is confusing to us.

Nobody is expecting to know what it means, but I think we are  
expecting people to not assume the worst about an expression.   
Attacking someone's strings because, if translated, it would be  
terribly insulting in your language means you should discuss (not  
attack) what it means in a suitable forum, such as this mailing list,  
and then it should either be left blank in your language or a  
suitable replacement be found.


>>
>> If you take the approach of "I'll translate everything (often  
>> literally)
>> without understanding it", you're going to end up with a bad  
>> translation
>> that results in user complaints. It's entirely reasonable for us (and
>> users) to expect that translators fully understand what they're
>> translating.
>
> Yes indeed. That's why you supply context with obtuse strings, so  
> we have enough information to understand fully what we're translating.


After this line of discussion on these particular strings, I'm sure  
some comments as to their meanings might be added.  I'd even supply  
them.



--V

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Bad language in Gaim

[Clytie S. <cl...@ri...>]

On 25/04/2006, at 9:20 PM, Vincas =C4=8Ci=C5=BEi=C5=ABnas wrote:

> On Apr 25, 2006, at 5:37 AM, Clytie Siddall wrote:
>> I think there is a sensible compromise. If a string is normal =20
>> language, which you would expect the average user to understand, =20
>> then you can also expect us to understand it. If it is not normal =20
>> language, if it's more technical, more idiomatic or more obtuse, =20
>> then you need to supply context.
>
> (Most) Developers are not linguists.  To many of them, idioms do =20
> constitute 'normal language'.

Yes, of course. I meant _more idiomatic_ than usual, like the jargon =20
of one particular sub-culture. "Sensing a disturbance in the force" =20
is an example of this. While Star Wars fans (of whom I am one ;) ) =20
probably don't think of Star Wars as a sub-anything, it's not general =20=

language (yet ;) ).

from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nh=C3=B3m =
=20
Vi=E1=BB=87t h=C3=B3a ph=E1=BA=A7n m=E1=BB=81m t=E1=BB=B1 do)
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Richard L. <rl...@wi...>]

On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 10:18 +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote:
> I didn't say that we should change all these strings. A comment for the 
> translators would be good here. The "TOC" plugin is not compiled by 
> default. So it's nearly useless to have to translate the TOC strings.

I'm going to repeat my question... How do we add comments for
translators that show up in the .po files? I hear them talked about
everywhere, but I have yet to find an example. My apologies if someone
replied and I missed it.

> You 
> may not want to hear it, but Gaim's i18n strings are much more technical 
> compared with Kopete.

If you have specific suggestions of ways to reduce the technical nature
of the strings without reducing their usefulness, I'd love to hear them.

Richard

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Elnaz S. <el...@fa...>]

=D8=B1=D9=88=D8=B2 =DA=86=D9=87=D8=A7=D8=B1=D8=B4=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=87=D8=8C=
 2006-04-26 =D8=B3=D8=A7=D8=B9=D8=AA 03:31 -0500=D8=8C Richard Laager =D9=
=86=D9=88=D8=B4=D8=AA:
> I'm going to repeat my question... How do we add comments for
> translators that show up in the .po files? I hear them talked about
> everywhere, but I have yet to find an example. My apologies if someone
> replied and I missed it.

Hi,
I'm copying this from i18n guide for developers form gnome wiki
(http://developer.gnome.org/doc/tutorials/gnome-i18n/developer.html)

                Below is a code example from line 42 in a file called
                foo.c:
               =20
                   /* This is the verb, not the noun */
                   g_printf (_("Profile"));
                  =20
               =20
                This will automatically turn into this in the pot and po
                files:
               =20
                   #. This is the verb, not the noun
                   #: foo.c:42
                   msgid "Profile"
                   msgstr ""
       =20
  =20
The first line is a translation comment.

Just my two Rials ;),
Elnaz

[Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Bjoern V. <bj...@cs...>]

Richard Laager wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 10:18 +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote:
> > I didn't say that we should change all these strings. A comment for t=
he=20
> > translators would be good here. The "TOC" plugin is not compiled by=20
> > default. So it's nearly useless to have to translate the TOC strings.=

>
> I'm going to repeat my question... How do we add comments for
> translators that show up in the .po files? I hear them talked about
> everywhere, but I have yet to find an example. My apologies if someone
> replied and I missed it.
>  =20
Thanks Richard for pointing this out. I think it would be a great=20
feature for gettext to have special comments which appear also in .po=20
files. IFAIK this is only possible for flags (c-format etc.).

The gettext info page says, developers should write normal C comments:

http://punt.sourceforge.net/gettext/gettext_3.html#SEC20

May be we can suggest something better for gettext. Bruno Haible (bruno=20
(at) clisp (at) org) seams to be the current gettext maintainer.

> > You may not want to hear it, but Gaim's i18n strings are much more te=
chnical compared with Kopete.
>
> If you have specific suggestions of ways to reduce the technical nature=

> of the strings without reducing their usefulness, I'd love to hear them=
=2E
>  =20
One example: Kopete AFAIK uses the term "Host:" for all the "Auth host"=20
(AIM/ICQ), "Pager host" (Yahoo), "Server:" (Jabber), "Login server:"=20
(MSN) ... host descriptions. Of course there are technical differences=20
between Pager hosts, Login servers etc. But is this really interesting=20
for users and translators to know the differences?

Greetings, Bj=F6rn

Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Richard L. <rl...@wi...>]

On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 11:07 +0200, Bjoern Voigt wrote: 
> One example: Kopete AFAIK uses the term "Host:" for all the "Auth host" 
> (AIM/ICQ), "Pager host" (Yahoo), "Server:" (Jabber), "Login server:" 
> (MSN) ... host descriptions. Of course there are technical differences 
> between Pager hosts, Login servers etc. But is this really interesting 
> for users and translators to know the differences?

I doubt it.

Unless someone objects, I'd like to change all those (except maybe
"Pager host", as there is also a "File transfer host" for Yahoo) and the
corresponding port strings to "Server" and "Port".

Richard

Adding contextual comments (was: Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Clytie S. <cl...@ri...>]

On 26/04/2006, at 9:04 PM, Ethan Blanton wrote:

>  I sent quite a long reply to one of your
> previous emails asking precisely how we can help, and suggesting that
> we should perhaps make a more concerted effort to comment strings
> which have caused translators difficulty in the past.

This is exactly what we need. Thankyou.

Is there any difficulty with using the current gettext commenting =20
process?

If not, we can look forward to seeing contextual comments in the gaim =20=

PO file, which will make the translation task much more viable.

If so, I know Bruno [1] is very willing to work with developers on =20
gettext functions.

And thankyou to Bjoern for bringing this up originally. It is an =20
important issue.

from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nh=C3=B3m =
=20
Vi=E1=BB=87t h=C3=B3a ph=E1=BA=A7n m=E1=BB=81m t=E1=BB=B1 do)
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN

[1] Bruno Haible, as mentioned in a previous email, bruno AT clisp =20
=C4=910t org

Re: Adding contextual comments (was: Re: [Gaim-i18n] Re: Bad language in Gaim

[Richard L. <rl...@wi...>]

On Fri, 2006-04-28 at 14:52 +0930, Clytie Siddall wrote:
> If not, we can look forward to seeing contextual comments in the gaim  
> PO file, which will make the translation task much more viable.

I've added a couple and will have them committed in a few minutes.
Please e-mail this list if you find more strings that need comments.

Richard