pidgin-devel

[Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Jason S. <jas...@gm...>]

It is too hard to add GTalk accounts to gaim. I always end up having to
google for the help page with the server settings listed on it. Could
Gaim prepopulate the Jabber advanced server settings fields as soon as
someone enters a som...@gm... Jabber ID?

Also, to make things easier for newbies who don't know what Jabber even
is, could the display name of the Jabber plugin be renamed to "Jabber /
Google Talk"? The majority of Jabber users use Google Talk as their
Jabber server anyway. And the easier to use Gaim is, the more people
will use it (and perhaps even the more people will switch to Linux).

Regards,
Jason Spiro
jas...@gm...

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Kevin M S. <ke...@si...>]

Jason Spiro wrote:
> It is too hard to add GTalk accounts to gaim. I always end up having to=

> google for the help page with the server settings listed on it. Could
> Gaim prepopulate the Jabber advanced server settings fields as soon as
> someone enters a som...@gm... Jabber ID?

I think it's unwise to add lots of special cases where we don't have to.
 Google has instructions on how to set up Google Talk with third party
clients on their web site.  We have a FAQ entry as well.  I don't think
adding this magic is really justified.

> Also, to make things easier for newbies who don't know what Jabber even=

> is, could the display name of the Jabber plugin be renamed to "Jabber /=

> Google Talk"? The majority of Jabber users use Google Talk as their
> Jabber server anyway. And the easier to use Gaim is, the more people
> will use it (and perhaps even the more people will switch to Linux).

This is more special casing and I don't think this is true.  Google Talk
is relatively new, and it seems unlikely they have more active users
than the balance of jabber servers that have been around for many years.

Your argument that changing the name of the Jabber plugin will increase
Linux adoption is amusing, though.

>=20
> Regards,
> Jason Spiro
> jas...@gm...
>=20
Kevin

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Jason S. <jas...@gm...>]

On 2006-06-16, Kevin M Stange <ke...@si...> wrote:
>> It is too hard to add GTalk accounts to gaim. I always end up having to=
>
>> google for the help page with the server settings listed on it. Could
>> Gaim prepopulate the Jabber advanced server settings fields as soon as
>> someone enters a som...@gm... Jabber ID?
>
> I think it's unwise to add lots of special cases where we don't have to.
>  Google has instructions on how to set up Google Talk with third party
> clients on their web site.  We have a FAQ entry as well.  I don't think
> adding this magic is really justified.

Nobody wants to read the docs, and even if this is a special case, it is
an extremely common one. Would it make the code that much harder to
maintain? If I were to submit a good patch, would it really be rejected?

> This is more special casing and I don't think this is true.  Google Talk
> is relatively new, and it seems unlikely they have more active users
> than the balance of jabber servers that have been around for many years.
>
You'd be surprised how many Gmail users there are. And at least a few
percent of those users use GTalk.

> Your argument that changing the name of the Jabber plugin will increase
> Linux adoption is amusing, though.
>
You never know. :) Gaim is the default instant messenger preinstalled
with Ubuntu.

Kind regards, Jason

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...>]

Jason Spiro spake unto us the following wisdom:
> On 2006-06-16, Kevin M Stange <ke...@si...> wrote:
> > I think it's unwise to add lots of special cases where we don't have to.
> >  Google has instructions on how to set up Google Talk with third party
> > clients on their web site.  We have a FAQ entry as well.  I don't think
> > adding this magic is really justified.
>=20
> Nobody wants to read the docs, and even if this is a special case, it is
> an extremely common one. Would it make the code that much harder to
> maintain? If I were to submit a good patch, would it really be rejected?

I think you're misapprehending a) how much we care about people who
are too lazy to read documentation, b) how common this case is, and c)
the point of why we aren't doing it.  In any case, as my other email
says (which was held up for some time due to mail problems, you should
get it approximately at the same time as this one), this problem is
obviated in the 2.0 betas.

> > This is more special casing and I don't think this is true.  Google Talk
> > is relatively new, and it seems unlikely they have more active users
> > than the balance of jabber servers that have been around for many years.
> >
> You'd be surprised how many Gmail users there are. And at least a few
> percent of those users use GTalk.

Yes, but most of those users don't use Gaim.  I *really* doubt that
Google Talk makes up the bulk of Gaim jabber usage.  It is probably a
non-negligible percentage, true.  In any case, it doesn't matter how
many people use it.  A lot of people use Windows, that doesn't make it
not suck.  Google Talk may not suck, but special-casing it in Gaim
does.

> > Your argument that changing the name of the Jabber plugin will increase
> > Linux adoption is amusing, though.
> >
> You never know. :) Gaim is the default instant messenger preinstalled
> with Ubuntu.

We don't want anyone who chooses their operating system based on its
IM clients.  Seriously.

Ethan

--=20
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...>]

Jason Spiro spake unto us the following wisdom:
> It is too hard to add GTalk accounts to gaim. I always end up having to
> google for the help page with the server settings listed on it. Could
> Gaim prepopulate the Jabber advanced server settings fields as soon as
> someone enters a som...@gm... Jabber ID?

No.  With the 2.0 betas, Gaim understand DNS SRV records, which means
that all of this happens automatically.  Fixing it in this manner is
far superior to special-casing a particular jabber server.  I suspect
that more non-Google-Talk jabber servers are in use with Gaim than
Google Talk is.

> Also, to make things easier for newbies who don't know what Jabber even
> is, could the display name of the Jabber plugin be renamed to "Jabber /
> Google Talk"? The majority of Jabber users use Google Talk as their
> Jabber server anyway. And the easier to use Gaim is, the more people
> will use it (and perhaps even the more people will switch to Linux).

This is likewise a bad idea.  I strongly suspect that your assertion
that the "majority" of jabber users are Google Talk users is false, at
least at this point in time.  There are an awful lot of organizational
jabber servers running around out there.

Ethan

--=20
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Mark D. <ma...@ki...>]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 14:18:07 +0000 (UTC), Jason Spiro wrote
> It is too hard to add GTalk accounts to gaim. I always end up having 
> to google for the help page with the server settings listed on it. Could
> Gaim prepopulate the Jabber advanced server settings fields as soon 
> as someone enters a som...@gm... Jabber ID?
> 
> Also, to make things easier for newbies who don't know what Jabber even
> is, could the display name of the Jabber plugin be renamed to 
> "Jabber / Google Talk"? The majority of Jabber users use Google Talk 
> as their Jabber server anyway. And the easier to use Gaim is, the 
> more people will use it (and perhaps even the more people will 
> switch to Linux).

I'm actually in favor of showing a dummy "Google Talk" protocol in the list of
accounts when someone adds an account.  There have been a lot of questions
about using Google Talk in Gaim.  Having a simpler way to add a Google Talk
account would probably eliminate some of the confusion.

-Mark

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Luke S. <lsc...@us...>]

On Fri, Jun 16, 2006 at 11:21:07AM -0500, Mark Doliner wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 14:18:07 +0000 (UTC), Jason Spiro wrote
> > It is too hard to add GTalk accounts to gaim. I always end up having 
> > to google for the help page with the server settings listed on it. Could
> > Gaim prepopulate the Jabber advanced server settings fields as soon 
> > as someone enters a som...@gm... Jabber ID?
> > 
> > Also, to make things easier for newbies who don't know what Jabber even
> > is, could the display name of the Jabber plugin be renamed to 
> > "Jabber / Google Talk"? The majority of Jabber users use Google Talk 
> > as their Jabber server anyway. And the easier to use Gaim is, the 
> > more people will use it (and perhaps even the more people will 
> > switch to Linux).
> 
> I'm actually in favor of showing a dummy "Google Talk" protocol in the list of
> accounts when someone adds an account.  There have been a lot of questions
> about using Google Talk in Gaim.  Having a simpler way to add a Google Talk
> account would probably eliminate some of the confusion.
> 
> -Mark

This weekend, I was at a birthday party, and a room full of people
tried to insist that google talk was not jabber.  This is a problem,
because it means that they will have no chance at understanding the
connection between "services and software that does not suck" and the
open standards (which google admittedly seems to play fast and loose
with) of jabber.

The only way I see to even attempt to counteract this tendency is to
force that small body of users that look to gaim as their client to
realize that google talk is jabber.  If we give in and special case
this, set up a dummy prpl, then even gaim users would be enabled in
thinking (and insisting) that google talk is not jabber, but is
google's own invention.

I don't want to see this happen.  I don't want to enable this sort of
confusion, I don't want to have users who can't handle the fact that
google is jabber.

luke

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Tim R. <tim...@ep...>]

Luke Schierer wrote:

> This weekend, I was at a birthday party, and a room full of people
>
>tried to insist that google talk was not jabber.  This is a problem,
>because it means that they will have no chance at understanding the
>connection between "services and software that does not suck" and the
>open standards (which google admittedly seems to play fast and loose
>with) of jabber.
>
>The only way I see to even attempt to counteract this tendency is to
>force that small body of users that look to gaim as their client to
>realize that google talk is jabber.  If we give in and special case
>this, set up a dummy prpl, then even gaim users would be enabled in
>thinking (and insisting) that google talk is not jabber, but is
>google's own invention.
>
>I don't want to see this happen.  I don't want to enable this sort of
>confusion, I don't want to have users who can't handle the fact that
>google is jabber.
>  
>

That has the problem that people who don't realize GTalk is Jabber, won't.
If you really want to point it out to people, why not add a GTalk option 
to the dropdown. Upon selecting GTalk, Jabber is selected, maybe with 
some default options changed if that is still needed (sounds like it 
isn't in Gaim 2.0.0?). Just to make it really explicit, we could pop up 
dialog explaining why when they choose GTalk the selector magicly 
changes to Jabber. This would go a lot further to changing perceptions 
then just expecting the user to know (at which point someone else must 
have already changed his perceptions).

--Tim

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Stephen E. <spe...@gm...>]

Well, by the looks of it, it seems that what Gaim really needs is a kind of
"New Account Wizard", where those explanations and default settings would
exist, to make life simpler for new users. If such wizard existed, it would
make perfect sense to include a GTalk option, with the required
explanations, if need be. It would still be a Jabber server getting special
treatment, however.

I don't think that advanced users that know just what the heck Jabber is
need any more popups...


Stephen


On 6/17/06, Tim Ringenbach <tim...@ep...> wrote:
>
> Luke Schierer wrote:
>
> > This weekend, I was at a birthday party, and a room full of people
> >
> >tried to insist that google talk was not jabber.  This is a problem,
> >because it means that they will have no chance at understanding the
> >connection between "services and software that does not suck" and the
> >open standards (which google admittedly seems to play fast and loose
> >with) of jabber.
> >
> >The only way I see to even attempt to counteract this tendency is to
> >force that small body of users that look to gaim as their client to
> >realize that google talk is jabber.  If we give in and special case
> >this, set up a dummy prpl, then even gaim users would be enabled in
> >thinking (and insisting) that google talk is not jabber, but is
> >google's own invention.
> >
> >I don't want to see this happen.  I don't want to enable this sort of
> >confusion, I don't want to have users who can't handle the fact that
> >google is jabber.
> >
> >
>
> That has the problem that people who don't realize GTalk is Jabber, won't.
> If you really want to point it out to people, why not add a GTalk option
> to the dropdown. Upon selecting GTalk, Jabber is selected, maybe with
> some default options changed if that is still needed (sounds like it
> isn't in Gaim 2.0.0?). Just to make it really explicit, we could pop up
> dialog explaining why when they choose GTalk the selector magicly
> changes to Jabber. This would go a lot further to changing perceptions
> then just expecting the user to know (at which point someone else must
> have already changed his perceptions).
>
> --Tim
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gaim-devel mailing list
> Gai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gaim-devel
>

[Gaim-devel] Add Account Wizard (was: Making it easier to add GTalk acc...)

[Jason S. <jas...@gm...>]

Le 17-06-2006, Stephen Eilert <spe...@gm...> a écrit :
> Well, by the looks of it, it seems that what Gaim really needs is a kind of
> "New Account Wizard", where those explanations and default settings would
> exist, to make life simpler for new users. If such wizard existed, it would
> make perfect sense to include a GTalk option, with the required
> explanations, if need be. It would still be a Jabber server getting special
> treatment, however.

Hmm, Stephen, IMO an Add Account Wizard would be a *great* idea! And not
just for people who use Google Talk, but for Gaim newbies using other IM
services as well.

And more features could be added, like perhaps:

* A guided setup process for Google Talk users that helps them determine
  which server settings to use, based on whether their email address is
  @gmail.com, @googlemail.com, or using the Google for your Domain
  service.
  
    * Side note: I just renamed my .gaim directory and installed and tried
      2.0.0beta3 for a minute or two and still could not manage to get
      it to connect to Google Talk by filling in different settings I
      thought I remembered correctly in the Basic tab of the account
      settings dialog. I typed in jas...@gm... and tried the
      server gmail.com and talk.google.com and neither one worked. So it
      seems to not be that easy for me to connect even with the new DNS
      SRV query feature, and perhaps others will have the same problem.
      I think a New Account Wizard would be simpler.

* Registration features that let you sign up for a new jabber.org
  account right inside Gaim.

* Or other things?

Does anyone know offhand if there is a feature request already filed for
this idea, and if so, whether anyone was interested in implementing it
but did not do so yet?

Kind regards,
Jason
jas...@gm...
-- 
When you open Windows, bugs get in!

Re: [Gaim-devel] Add Account Wizard (was: Making it easier to add GTalk acc...)

[Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...>]

Jason Spiro spake unto us the following wisdom:
>     * Side note: I just renamed my .gaim directory and installed and tried
>       2.0.0beta3 for a minute or two and still could not manage to get
>       it to connect to Google Talk by filling in different settings I
>       thought I remembered correctly in the Basic tab of the account
>       settings dialog. I typed in jas...@gm... and tried the
>       server gmail.com and talk.google.com and neither one worked. So it
>       seems to not be that easy for me to connect even with the new DNS
>       SRV query feature, and perhaps others will have the same problem.
>       I think a New Account Wizard would be simpler.

You should have tried a Screen name of jasonspiro4 and a Server of
gmail.com.  You would have to change nothing else (if I am remembering
correctly) to get connected to Google Talk.

I don't know how other Google-hosted mail domains are set up, but I
strongly suspect that if the proper SRV records are in place, they
would work the same way.

Ethan

--=20
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764

Re: [Gaim-devel] Add Account Wizard

[Graham C. <ch...@su...>]

Ethan Blanton wrote:
> Jason Spiro spake unto us the following wisdom:
>   
>> I thought I remembered correctly in the Basic tab of the account
>> settings dialog. I typed in jas...@gm... and tried the
>> server gmail.com and talk.google.com and neither one worked.
> You should have tried a Screen name of jasonspiro4 and a Server of
> gmail.com.  You would have to change nothing else (if I am remembering
> correctly) to get connected to Google Talk.
Is there any excuse for even allowing a user to type username@domain 
into the Screen name box on Jabber? I remember using one client (could 
well be Gajim) which automatically switched focus to the second box when 
an "@" is typed (making it really obvious what's expected).

Without looking at the Advanced options, one might easily assume that 
"Server" is actually the connect server, hence still needing the domain 
in the screen name box.

[Gaim-devel] forbidding @ sign in Jabber Screen name field (was: Add Account Wizard)

[Jason S. <jas...@gm...>]

Months ago, Graham Cole <chckens <at> sucs.org> wrote:
> Ethan Blanton wrote:
> > Jason Spiro spake unto us the following wisdom:
> >   
> >> I thought I remembered correctly in the Basic tab of the account
> >> settings dialog. I typed in jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com and tried the
> >> server gmail.com and talk.google.com and neither one worked.
> > You should have tried a Screen name of jasonspiro4 and a Server of
> > gmail.com.  You would have to change nothing else (if I am remembering
> > correctly) to get connected to Google Talk.
> Is there any excuse for even allowing a user to type username <at> domain 
> into the Screen name box on Jabber? I remember using one client (could 
> well be Gajim) which automatically switched focus to the second box when 
> an " <at> " is typed (making it really obvious what's expected).
> 
> Without looking at the Advanced options, one might easily assume that 
> "Server" is actually the connect server, hence still needing the domain 
> in the screen name box.
[snip]

I like your idea of forbidding users from typing an @ sign in the Screen name
box. On MSN, @ signs are important in the Screen Name field, so Jabber newbies
may assume they are important for Jabber too. If I file a feature request
requesting that your feature be implemented, is it likely to succeed?

Regards,
Jason

Re: [Gaim-devel] forbidding @ sign in Jabber Screen name field (was: Add Account Wizard)

[Mark D. <ma...@ki...>]

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 00:08:14 +0000 (UTC), Jason Spiro wrote
> Months ago, Graham Cole <chckens <at> sucs.org> wrote:
> > Ethan Blanton wrote:
> > > Jason Spiro spake unto us the following wisdom:
> > >   
> > >> I thought I remembered correctly in the Basic tab of the account
> > >> settings dialog. I typed in jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com and tried the
> > >> server gmail.com and talk.google.com and neither one worked.
> > > You should have tried a Screen name of jasonspiro4 and a Server of
> > > gmail.com.  You would have to change nothing else (if I am remembering
> > > correctly) to get connected to Google Talk.
> > Is there any excuse for even allowing a user to type username <at> domain 
> > into the Screen name box on Jabber? I remember using one client (could 
> > well be Gajim) which automatically switched focus to the second box when 
> > an " <at> " is typed (making it really obvious what's expected).
> > 
> > Without looking at the Advanced options, one might easily assume that 
> > "Server" is actually the connect server, hence still needing the domain 
> > in the screen name box.
> [snip]
> 
> I like your idea of forbidding users from typing an @ sign in the 
> Screen name box. On MSN, @ signs are important in the Screen Name 
> field, so Jabber newbies may assume they are important for Jabber 
> too. If I file a feature request requesting that your feature be 
> implemented, is it likely to succeed?

I like the idea of switching focus to the server box when the user types an
'@'.  It would of course have to be done in a protocol-independent way.  You
could probably accomplish it using the data that's currently set in
GaimPluginProtocolInfo->user_splits

-Mark

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Benjy G. <ben...@gm...>]

On 6/16/06, Mark Doliner <ma...@ki...> wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 14:18:07 +0000 (UTC), Jason Spiro wrote
> > It is too hard to add GTalk accounts to gaim. I always end up having
> > to google for the help page with the server settings listed on it. Could
> > Gaim prepopulate the Jabber advanced server settings fields as soon
> > as someone enters a som...@gm... Jabber ID?
> >
> > Also, to make things easier for newbies who don't know what Jabber even
> > is, could the display name of the Jabber plugin be renamed to
> > "Jabber / Google Talk"? The majority of Jabber users use Google Talk
> > as their Jabber server anyway. And the easier to use Gaim is, the
> > more people will use it (and perhaps even the more people will
> > switch to Linux).
>
> I'm actually in favor of showing a dummy "Google Talk" protocol in the list of
> accounts when someone adds an account.  There have been a lot of questions
> about using Google Talk in Gaim.  Having a simpler way to add a Google Talk
> account would probably eliminate some of the confusion.

I think Google is a good special case.  I use MSN all the time, but I
would probably log into Google Talk if it was a snap.  There's only so
much you can care about, and I don't need to know that Jabber and
Google Talk are the same thing or aren't.  I only need to instant
message, so I can get around to more important work.  You can see how
popular Gmail is, so Google Talk is probably going to become just as
popular in time.

Benjy


>
> -Mark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gaim-devel mailing list
> Gai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gaim-devel
>

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Sean E. <sea...@gm...>]

On 6/16/06, Mark Doliner <ma...@ki...> wrote:
> I'm actually in favor of showing a dummy "Google Talk" protocol in the list of
> accounts when someone adds an account.  There have been a lot of questions
> about using Google Talk in Gaim.  Having a simpler way to add a Google Talk
> account would probably eliminate some of the confusion.

I'm against this too, mostly for the reasons Luke gives. Also, there's
no actually good "default" settings for Google Talk. Google Talk hosts
the gmail.com domain, the googlemail.com domain, and a number of other
domains in the hosted domains (https://www.google.com/hosted/)
program; a Google Talk user would still have to enter the same exact
information in either case, so it's really just a matter of whether
it's more important to realize that Gaim supports Google Talk, or that
Google Talk supports Gaim. I'd prefer the latter.

-s.

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Jonty <jo...@el...>]

On Fri, 2006-06-16 at 13:03 -0400, Luke Schierer wrote:
> The only way I see to even attempt to counteract this tendency is to
> force that small body of users that look to gaim as their client to
> realize that google talk is jabber.  If we give in and special case
> this, set up a dummy prpl, then even gaim users would be enabled in
> thinking (and insisting) that google talk is not jabber, but is
> google's own invention.

What about changing the protocol selector to "Jabber / gTalk" - that way
there is an implicit declaration that they are the same protocol and
avoids special casing the situation.

For the sake of a small string change, it would save a lot of hassle.

Cheers,
Jonty

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...>]

Jonty spake unto us the following wisdom:
> On Fri, 2006-06-16 at 13:03 -0400, Luke Schierer wrote:
> > The only way I see to even attempt to counteract this tendency is to
> > force that small body of users that look to gaim as their client to
> > realize that google talk is jabber.  If we give in and special case
> > this, set up a dummy prpl, then even gaim users would be enabled in
> > thinking (and insisting) that google talk is not jabber, but is
> > google's own invention.
>=20
> What about changing the protocol selector to "Jabber / gTalk" - that way
> there is an implicit declaration that they are the same protocol and
> avoids special casing the situation.

The point is that that *is* a special case.  Why should google talk
have a special-case string in the Jabber prpl, when thousands of other
jabber servers out there do not?

> For the sake of a small string change, it would save a lot of hassle.

I think the perception of hassle here is skewed.  We really get
comparatively few questions about this.  Maybe there are a lot of
users out there who simply don't know to ask about it, but I doubt
this is the case...

Ethan

--=20
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Jonty <jo...@el...>]

On Fri, 2006-06-16 at 14:26 -0400, Ethan Blanton wrote:
> The point is that that *is* a special case.  Why should google talk
> have a special-case string in the Jabber prpl, when thousands of other
> jabber servers out there do not?

Thousands of other jabber servers don't call themselves something other
than Jabber, nor do they have their own exclusive client.

Cheers,
Jonty

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Luke S. <lsc...@us...>]

On Fri, Jun 16, 2006 at 07:38:29PM +0100, Jonty wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-06-16 at 14:26 -0400, Ethan Blanton wrote:
> > The point is that that *is* a special case.  Why should google talk
> > have a special-case string in the Jabber prpl, when thousands of other
> > jabber servers out there do not?
> 
> Thousands of other jabber servers don't call themselves something other
> than Jabber, nor do they have their own exclusive client.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jonty

I'd challenge that perception.  I've seen a few people ask about
branding gaim for a given company, to match with their internal
jabber server,  I imagine that jabber.com and similar companies are
more than willing to brand their own client when the customer wants
it, and surely not everyone looking at gaim is so foolish as to need
to ask how to go about replacing graphics and strings in a GPL
program.

luke

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Benjy G. <ben...@gm...>]

On 6/16/06, Ethan Blanton <ebl...@cs...> wrote:
> Jonty spake unto us the following wisdom:
> > On Fri, 2006-06-16 at 13:03 -0400, Luke Schierer wrote:
> > > The only way I see to even attempt to counteract this tendency is to
> > > force that small body of users that look to gaim as their client to
> > > realize that google talk is jabber.  If we give in and special case
> > > this, set up a dummy prpl, then even gaim users would be enabled in
> > > thinking (and insisting) that google talk is not jabber, but is
> > > google's own invention.
> >
> > What about changing the protocol selector to "Jabber / gTalk" - that way
> > there is an implicit declaration that they are the same protocol and
> > avoids special casing the situation.
>
> The point is that that *is* a special case.  Why should google talk
> have a special-case string in the Jabber prpl, when thousands of other
> jabber servers out there do not?

Exactly because it is Google.  How many people use Gmail?  In a short
time they'll all be using Google Talk.  It deserves to have it's own
special case, so that you can in an instant without looking anything
up, log into your GTalk account.  They are after all trying to gather
support for across the board open IM messaging.  I don't know of any
other special cases that are going to be as popular.  There are no
downsides to this.

Benjy


>
> > For the sake of a small string change, it would save a lot of hassle.
>
> I think the perception of hassle here is skewed.  We really get
> comparatively few questions about this.  Maybe there are a lot of
> users out there who simply don't know to ask about it, but I doubt
> this is the case...
>
> Ethan
>
> --
> The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
> for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
> determined to commit crimes.
>                 -- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764
>
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Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Luke S. <lsc...@us...>]

On Fri, Jun 16, 2006 at 02:56:56PM -0400, Benjy Grogan wrote:
> 
> Exactly because it is Google.  How many people use Gmail?  In a short
> time they'll all be using Google Talk.  It deserves to have it's own
> special case, so that you can in an instant without looking anything
> up, log into your GTalk account.  They are after all trying to gather
> support for across the board open IM messaging.  I don't know of any
> other special cases that are going to be as popular.  There are no
> downsides to this.
> 
> Benjy
> 

There ARE downsides to this.  I WANT people to know and realize that
they are using jabber.

A second downside is that some user will see "I selected 'Jabber -
gtalk' but it doesn't work" because they can't use those defaults
(see sean's email about there being a variety of hosts).

A third downside is that some user will see gtalk defaults and think
that there are no other jabber servers.

luke

Re: [Gaim-devel] Making it easier to add GTalk accounts by prepopulating the server settings fields

[Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...>]

Benjy Grogan spake unto us the following wisdom:
> On 6/16/06, Ethan Blanton <ebl...@cs...> wrote:
> > The point is that that *is* a special case.  Why should google talk
> > have a special-case string in the Jabber prpl, when thousands of other
> > jabber servers out there do not?
>=20
> Exactly because it is Google.  How many people use Gmail?  In a short
> time they'll all be using Google Talk.  It deserves to have it's own
> special case, so that you can in an instant without looking anything
> up, log into your GTalk account.  They are after all trying to gather
> support for across the board open IM messaging.  I don't know of any
> other special cases that are going to be as popular.  There are no
> downsides to this.

So Google "deserves" a special place in our software simply because
their market share is huge?  I'm sure all the little guys out there
would love to know that.  This is a path we do not want to go down.
The fact of the matter is that it isn't hard at all to configure
Google Talk in Gaim post v1.5.0, and the Google Talk help pages give
explicit instructions for versions before this (we can hope they will
update their instructions when 2.0 is released).

I think your final sentence should read, "If you ignore or dismiss
with non sequitur arguments all of the downsides, none remain."

Ethan

--=20
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764