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From: Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...> - 2003-04-02 22:33:20
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Spundun Bhatt spake unto us the following wisdom:
> -> I again very strongly reccomend removing the "no more talking about
> gentoo, you're not smart enough" part from the #gaim topic line. The
> statement at the same time being very strong is also not at all
> defendable. It doesnt convey any information to a gentoo user who is not
> smart enough. I dont see *a single comment* on the faq about the gentoo
> distro. If you are sick and tired of gentoo questions (which apparently
> you are..) you should add a q/a on the faq page.... I am a gentoo user.
[snip]
This is my first and ONLY post on this topic, as discussing Gentoo
disgusts me.
That topic has been gone for hours. It was not set in response to a
problem with gentoo and gaim, it was set because, as usual, the
instant gentoo comes up five gentoo users come out of the woodwork and
start trashing other distributions/package systems/whatever for
reasons they do not understand and cannot defend. Every *single* time
the word 'gentoo' comes up in that channel, some gentoo user starts
talking about how much better gentoo is than everything else ... and
then typically proves to all of us exactly how much he/she does not
know about why gentoo may or may not be better than anything at all,
including a dead sheep.
I know that not all gentoo users are like that, and I know that there
are users of other distributions who do the same thing. The argument
at the time was over gentoo.
This issue is closed.
Ethan
--=20
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will
look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the
blackest."
-- Mahatma Gandhi
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From: Luke S. <lsc...@us...> - 2003-04-02 22:27:18
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On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 01:33:45PM -0800, Spundun Bhatt wrote: > Hi, I am one of the lurkers on the list.... > I think I have some constructive suggestions on the topic. > > -> I think you could easily have a section in faq specifically for the > recent changes esp. in the cvs and the logic behind that, and the > direction its going... you could make a special mention of the section > in the topic statement on irc so that the cvs users specifically go to > the faq and checkout the latest issues and a discussion on that. The way i can't get people to read the topic 9 times out of 10, much less read the faq. the faq has been in the topic for MONTHS and still over half of users in #gaim haven't read it. pertinent issues are also often in the topic already, and again, people will join and ask anyway. > you guys have put it on this thread I think it should be lot easier to > maintain such a section than to answer everybody separately. It will > save the hassel for all the sides. > -> alternatively(or at the same time) any update to the cvs which may > rais obvious questions can be discussed by the person who commited it on > this mailing list sort of preemptively it will make being on this list > more exciting :) ... ( This list definatly lacks activity considering > its one of the most active opensource projects..barring today ofcourse > :) ) > > -> I strongly reccomend changing the topic line on the #gaim (the "using > cvs revokes your right to complain" part) by one of the suggesstions > above. Probably the strong words are meant to be taken lightly but they > are not conveying the right immpression (my opinion) the topic has very gradually moved to such language. > > -> I again very strongly reccomend removing the "no more talking about > gentoo, you're not smart enough" part from the #gaim topic line. The > statement at the same time being very strong is also not at all > defendable. It doesnt convey any information to a gentoo user who is not > smart enough. I dont see *a single comment* on the faq about the gentoo > distro. If you are sick and tired of gentoo questions (which apparently > you are..) you should add a q/a on the faq page.... I am a gentoo user. > Gentoo makes it very easy to use gaim-cvs (which might be one of the > reasons you are getting "too many users" using cvs.) Its a distro which > is gaining a lot of popularity and gaim could use it for very extensive the biggest reason we dislike gentoo is the falacy that spending time compiling every package all the time really saves you that much time in optimisation. the biggest reason that hits #gaim so often is that often the most clueless users we see end up to be using gentoo, and 2)despite what the gento emerge apparently says, there have been 3 or 4 times when there have been gentoo-specific problems. if you have tracked gaim development for long enough, you will remember slack and mandrake getting slammed for similar things (ie distro-specific issues). > testing. I dont know whats the exact nature of problems the gentoo users > face... but I am willing to help write a short note on that... (If the > issues are just too elaborate.. you could direct them to the gentoo docs > page first rather then telling them they are not smart enough) but my > experience with both gaim-cvs and gentoo is very amaturish. > basically, if people read the faq and topic more often, we wouldn't be discussing this at length now. for a while i kept the faq VERY up to date, but my consistent failure to get people to read the faq has gottem me discouraged with reguards to it. equally discuraging is the fact that if i put cvs-specific stuff in the faq, even if i say its specific to cvs, next thing i know, i see 10 or 20 users asking me about using feature x that is stated to be cvs-only in 0.59.x, this makes me want to keep the faq oriented to the release. its a great idea, but still not as easy as just subscribing to the gaim-commits digest. luke |
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From: Spundun B. <sp...@IS...> - 2003-04-03 02:03:21
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Thanx guys for your reply, I can imagine irc culture is different than mailing lists...(me not being very familiar with irc). People think twice before sending an email but not quite the same story on irc... On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 14:26, Luke Schierer wrote: > i can't get people to read the topic 9 times out of 10, much less read the Speaking of which a feature request..... How about a pop-up tooltip/baloon for the topic box. When the mouse cursor is on the topic box in irc window... a tooltip similar to the ones you see over MS-windows system tray or MS-word sticky notes could popup (with web links clickable may be?) Hope this helps Spundun |
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From: Luke S. <lsc...@us...> - 2003-04-02 20:38:42
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On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 12:40:41PM -0500, Richard Hoskins wrote: > Ethan Blanton <ebl...@cs...> writes: > > > Interface change discussion is, of course, welcome on this list. The > > sort of email which doesn't get a very good response is "I don't like > > X, make it how it used to be", or "Is there an option to make X how it > > used to be?". A well thought out email presenting pros and cons might > > make some progress ... a knee-jerk reaction to change will not. Users > > should keep in mind that we, as gaim developers, use gaim every day as > > well. What might initially seem like the end of the world (come on > > people, it's a freaking IM client ... if it has something you don't > > like in CVS for a week, the world will NOT end) may in fact be > > something you decide you like if you just give it a chance for a few > > days. > > Fair enough, but I don't see a lot of knee jerk reactions here. I see > no discussion of any issues, as a matter of fact. yeah, gaim-devel is VERY low traffic, we created it more as a way to get stuff out when a majority of us developers aren't present on irc at a given time. latter the wiki proved a more useful way of doing that. this has continued because it has developed its own nitche. still, by the time _any_ issue hits this list, we've heard about it umpteen million times in #gaim and/or in the sf forums. > > > It's very off-putting to have every single design change second- and > > third-guessed simply because a few (not by any means a majority!) > > users are so afraid of change and progress that they cannot handle the > > fact that, e.g., the tabs on their conversations are not optional for > > a _few days_. The developers of gaim work very hard to ensure that > > they are, in fact, *improving* gaim. Sometimes change is good. > > Fair enough again. I'm sure the developers are working very hard, and > I appreciate their work. But where's this second and third guessing > going on? It's not on this list. If anything, the knee jerk > reactions have been on the other side of the fence. the knee jerk reactions happen mostly in irc, some in the forum. you are correct, this list is ussually more sane. > > > > Take the new buddy list, for another example. When it was first > > committed, people were like "oh, gah! it's so huuuuge! wah wah can i > > have an option?". I know of at least a few people, however, that > > decided (in the two or three days, it wasn't that long!) they liked > > the bigger buddy list with icons and kept it even after the option to > > reduce it was readded. > > Perhaps the discussion of the new buddy list was warranted, then. It > did some good. Just because some acted like they wanted the world, > doesn't mean that there wasn't room for discussion. You don't want > feedback from the users? Are you going to treat all questions as > complaints, and all concerns as whining? it depends. seriously. we _try_ to take serious comments, substantive comments, seriously. sometimes we are having a bad day. sometimes we've had so many complaints we react before we realize that your comment is the first meaningful one of the day. this isn't good, but its kinda just part of us being human. > > > I'm relatively new to this whole gaim development thing, so I came in > > just before 0.59 was frozen and 0.60 went under heavy rewrite. I have > > seen in this past few months *countless* times where some feature X > > gets ripped out for rewrite, or is only partially reimplemented (or > > whatever), and people come literally flocking to #gaim (or, less > > often, this mailing list) begging to have this feature > > readded/removed/whatever so they can have the behavior they are used > > to back. Within HOURS or MINUTES. It's awfully hard to develop, make > > forward progress, and keep these people happy all at the same time. > > Thus you get short answers like "no, shut up" both here and in #gaim > > and in the SF forums. If you're the 200th user to say "when are > > conversation tabs going to be optional?", you can expect a terse and > > perhaps somewhat unfriendly response. > > Don't do IRC, so I won't comment on #gaim, but I don't see that > behavior on this list. I don't know what has gone on in the past. > (Is this list archived anywhere?) this is archived, i'm not sure where sf keeps the archives, gaim-commits is not, as the cvs -z3 log IS the archive. > > > I think it is also reasonable to expect people who wish to track gaim > > CVS to keep at least somewhat on top of the changes going in. If > > something shows up that I didn't expect, I don't come crying to this > > list or IRC first thing ... I peruse the recent CVS logs to try and > > determine if it is intentional or a bug. If it appears to be > > intentional, I give it a few hours to shake itself out before I start > > announcing that gaim has ended my life and career and exploded my > > monitor. If it seems to be a bug, I attempt to figure out why or get > > a backtrace or take whatever action seems most appropriate. Is it > > unreasonable to expect this out of users? Not at all, if they're > > using gaim from CVS and not a released version. As a matter of fact, > > if a user comes to #gaim and says "gaim is dumping core, but I don't > > know how to get a backtrace like the instructions say, can someone > > help me?", I'm sure that user would get more or less immediate help. > > Gaim dumped core on me, or at least that is what STDERR said, along > with a request for a backtrace. I couldn't find the core file to get > said backtrace, so I posted to this list. I was told "There's a reason > this is CVS. The bugs will be fixed when we find fixes." for some VERY odd reason, most linux distros have things set to suppress core files. run ulimit -c unlimited in the terminal you start gaim from to re-enable them (you can replace unlimited with a size as well). you might want to put that in your bash profile or rc or whathaveyou. luke > > > -- > Lift me down, so I can make the Earth tremble. > --Bucky Katt > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: > Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of bandwidth! > No other company gives more support or power for your dedicated server > http://click.atdmt.com/AFF/go/sdnxxaff00300020aff/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Gaim-devel mailing list > Gai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gaim-devel -- -This email is made of 100% recycled electrons. |
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From: Richard H. <rm...@ap...> - 2003-04-02 17:19:23
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Rob Flynn <ro...@fa...> writes:
> My main problem comes from the fact that some expect what is in CVS
> to be release-quality. They don't want a half completed feature.
> If some UI is not fully implemented then they will complain. That
> is mostly what I was complaining about. The changes made yesterday
> are an exception being that it was April Fool's day.
Asking a question does not constitute complaining, or expecting
anything, let alone a release-quality app.
But you know that.
Hope you are feeling better.
--
Lift me down, so I can make the Earth tremble.
--Bucky Katt
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From: Sean E. <sea...@bi...> - 2003-04-02 17:56:51
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On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 12:19, Richard Hoskins wrote: > Asking a question does not constitute complaining, or expecting > anything, let alone a release-quality app. When you hear the same question from a hundred different people, the net affect is the same. My two cents: CVS is by definition incopmlete. Because we haven't had a major release in 9 months, too many people (read: people who don't actually care about development) are using CVS (a normal Gaim release has around 40,000 downloads from sourceforge. The latest stable has 8,000 downloads. The CVS nightlies take about 13GB/Week.) These people get annoyed when something breaks as they depend on CVS Gaim to be perfect. Everytime something gets partially implemented or temporarily removed, #gaim, this mailing list, our mailboxes and IM windows get filled with people "asking questions" (read: complaining). This is annoying. Very annyoing. 0.60 really will be released this week, and then we'll return to our normal 2-week release cycle. Then, people who don't care about Gaim development can use releases in which we promise everything works, and you can complain your little hearts out if it doesn't. -s. |
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From: Matthew K. <kel...@po...> - 2003-04-02 19:13:07
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On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 12:56, Sean Egan wrote: > These people get annoyed when something breaks as they depend on CVS > Gaim to be perfect. Just as an aside, the reason that Samba-TNG forked from Samba is because there was SO much user-pressure on the Samba developers to always have a perfect CVS, that major changes were impossible. I, as a Gaim user, would much prefer CVS breaking, then Gaim forking- Or worse, developers feeling disenfranchised. CVS is the development sandbox, and people who want to play in the sandbox need too understand that the Tonka's might be not work sometimes. My $0.02. -- Matthew Keller Enterprise Systems Analyst Computing & Technology Services State University of New York @ Potsdam Potsdam, NY USA http://mattwork.potsdam.edu/ |
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From: Rob F. <ro...@fa...> - 2003-04-02 19:23:17
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CVS is the development sandbox, and > people who want to play in the sandbox need too understand that the > Tonka's might be not work sometimes. > Hahahahahahahaha!! I like that analogy. - R |
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From: Nathan W. <fac...@fa...> - 2003-04-02 17:16:52
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On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 11:08:32AM -0500, Scott Henson wrote: > Maybe starting to archive it on the web somewhere would be nice. Im not > sure what the volume on it is, but I would rather not add another list > to my mailbox. Also if it was archived it would be much simpler to go > back and track the changes instead of having to keep every commit > message. =20 Once 0.60 releases (real soon now, really), people can go back to: a) using releases, and reading the changelog to find out what has changed b) using CVS, and subscribing to gaim-commits to watch what is changing. once we release, the only people who should be using cvs are those willing to keep up with the changes, or those willing to put up with it. hell, there's a digest for gaim-commits, it won't ruin your life to get a daily email about what we're doing. =20 If it _will_ ruin your life to get an extra email or two per day, you can always go read about stuff in the web interface to cvs that sourceforge is so nice to provide. If any of the above options are too much work for you, then you shouldn't be using cvs. You should be waiting for us to tell you "it's ok to use it now", which we say in the form of a release. Nathan --=20 Nathan Walp || fac...@fa... GPG Fingerprint: || http://faceprint.com/ 5509 6EF3 928B 2363 9B2B DA17 3E46 2CDC 492D DB7E |
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From: Vincent Ho <lo...@in...> - 2003-04-02 21:05:41
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On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 10:52:09AM -0500, Ethan Blanton wrote:
> Morten Brix Pedersen spake unto us the following wisdom:
>
> > The ChangeLog is not meant to track changes between releases. Its
> > meant to track code changes. The NEWS file is used to track changes
> > betweeen releases.
>
> That is very much an opinion ... and one I am inclined to disagree
> with. Since we have CVS logs to track commit-by-commit changes
> (although the commit messages are not always what they could be), I
> don't see any need to duplicate that information. I like to see major
> changes since the last release when I look at a ChangeLog.
CVS commit logs don't correlate changes between files. This is one of
the key drawbacks of CVS IMHO, that commits are done on a per-file basis
and it has no concept that any changes to multiple files are linked.
Without tags, there is no simple way to say "find this change I did to
multiple files", and view/revert it.
Hence why I prefer the ChangeLog as a log of discrete changes, and NEWS
for the bird's eye view of release changes. But I digress; it seems the
main reason logging on a commit-by-commit basis to the ChangeLog is a
pain is because you guys have made it so =)
Ah well, no skin off my nose really.
Cheers,
Vince
--
Vincent Ho
lo...@in...
QOTD:
"Everything I am today I owe to people, whom it is now
too late to punish."
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From: Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...> - 2003-04-02 21:22:11
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Vincent Ho spake unto us the following wisdom: > CVS commit logs don't correlate changes between files. This is one of > the key drawbacks of CVS IMHO, that commits are done on a per-file basis > and it has no concept that any changes to multiple files are linked. > Without tags, there is no simple way to say "find this change I did to > multiple files", and view/revert it. http://www.cobite.com/cvsps It seems to choke on generating patchset *patches* for gaim, but I find it very useful for browsing the logs. > Hence why I prefer the ChangeLog as a log of discrete changes, and NEWS > for the bird's eye view of release changes. But I digress; it seems the > main reason logging on a commit-by-commit basis to the ChangeLog is a > pain is because you guys have made it so =3D) How so? The point that I and Rob both made was that we don't want to see that kind of volume of information in the ChangeLog. The current method has what we want in the ChangeLog. Perhaps it is painful for you... Ethan --=20 "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." -- Mahatma Gandhi |
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From: Mark D. <ma...@ki...> - 2003-04-02 21:37:27
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The ChangeLog isn't really a pain to add to or edit. I think the feeling is that the ChangeLog is aimed at people who know nothing about the development of Gaim, and have no need to. Because of this, the ChangeLog is really only used for functionality changes and improvements and maybe major bugfixes (this is the case for many of the 0.59.x changes). Also, the ChangeLog is really only accurate for releases (for example, the ChangeLog said that gaim 0.60 had file transfer for a week or so when it didn't). If you're really interested in see what files have changed, gaim-commits should work fairly well. The cvs log, while often having useless or uninformational messages, almost always mentions any change that people will be interested in. I would find it amazingly annoying to have to edit a ChangeLog file every single time I make a commit. Just thinking about that gives me the willies. Once 0.60 is released, and gaim gets back to a somewhat regular release schedule, there should be fewer non-programmers using CVS, and all of this should become less of an issue. I for one don't see any need to change how any of that is being done. And yes, some of us gaim developers have been, er, let's say "snappy" to people who have asked questions like "i cant edit buddy list why?," and a lot of that is probably uncalled for, but for the love of God, read the topic when you go to #gaim. -Mark |
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From: Richard H. <rm...@ap...> - 2003-04-01 20:10:14
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Rob Flynn <ro...@fa...> writes:
> I'm starting to get pretty tired of people complaining about what
> they see in CVS when they don't bother to read the ChangeLogs and
> see what's going on.
Funny, I see nothing in the ChangeLogs about it now being called
"Biatches List", but it does.
(I'm assuming the date has something to do with this.)
--
Lift me down, so I can make the Earth tremble.
--Bucky Katt
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From: Jango F. <bou...@so...> - 2003-04-02 00:42:35
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El mar, 01-04-2003 a las 14:51, Rob Flynn escribi=C3=B3: > I'm starting to get pretty tired of people complaining about what they > see in CVS when they don't bother to read the ChangeLogs and see what's > going on. You are exucsed, usually i simply download and test and read changelog several weeks later, just to kill some time. >=20 > Buddy list modification now takes place within the buddylist itself via > a right click menu. Offline buddies can be toggled from the Edit menu > at the top of the buddylist. I dont see such menu. I have Buddies, tools and Help. >=20 > If the icons are too big for you then change the preference that tells > the buddylist to not draw the buddy icons on the buddylist. I did it. but the buttons are useful sometimes. >=20 > Things in CVS are currently under development and may or may not work at > any given time. They may also look a little odd. That's something > you'll have to deal if you're going to use cutting-edge versions. Of course. I like cvs version. Just seems that i downloaded the wrong day. --=20 Roger D. Vargas, MSCE (Minesweeper and Solitaire Certified Expert) ICQ: 117641572 =20 Linux User: 180787 =20 |
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From: Sean E. <sea...@bi...> - 2003-04-01 20:18:18
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On Tue, 2003-04-01 at 15:41, Jango Fett wrote: > What happened to the tabs in the buddy list? They went away. You know that, though. > Now i cant see offline > contacts. You're wrong. > Also the new buttons are too large. You're wrong again. -s. |
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From: John B. S. <sil...@us...> - 2003-04-01 20:54:25
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What Rob is saying is that you choose "Show Offline Buddies" from the 'Edit' menu, and you will then see all your buddies, and can edit that list. There's no good reason to have to have a separate tab for editing. Remember, this is CVS, and is constantly in flux. Cheers, John Silvestri On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 03:26:05PM -0500, Scott Henson wrote: > On Tue, 2003-04-01 at 14:51, Rob Flynn wrote: > > Buddy list modification now takes place within the buddylist itself via > > a right click menu. Offline buddies can be toggled from the Edit menu > > at the top of the buddylist. > Sorry, but what edit button. I have the latest debian cvs deb, and I > see no edit button anywhere in the gaim window. Did something recently > go into cvs? I see nothing in the recent cvs change log that would > suggest that we can again edit our buddy lists. I am sorry if Im > rehashing something, but I just dont see the option for editing my buddy > list. Thanks. > -- > Scott Henson <deb...@si...> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: > Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of bandwidth! > No other company gives more support or power for your dedicated server > http://click.atdmt.com/AFF/go/sdnxxaff00300020aff/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Gaim-devel mailing list > Gai...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gaim-devel |
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From: Jango F. <bou...@so...> - 2003-04-02 00:44:53
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El mar, 01-04-2003 a las 15:50, John B. Silvestri escribi=C3=B3: > What Rob is saying is that you choose "Show Offline Buddies" from the > 'Edit' menu, and you will then see all your buddies, and can edit that > list. There's no good reason to have to have a separate tab for > editing. Remember, this is CVS, and is constantly in flux. At least for me, it is a good change (when i have it). It is much better to have all contacts in the same place. --=20 Roger D. Vargas, MSCE (Minesweeper and Solitaire Certified Expert) ICQ: 117641572 =20 Linux User: 180787 =20 |
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From: Ka-Hing C. <kh...@ja...> - 2003-04-02 18:02:35
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On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 09:40, Richard Hoskins wrote: > Ethan Blanton <ebl...@cs...> writes: > Perhaps the discussion of the new buddy list was warranted, then. It > did some good. Just because some acted like they wanted the world, > doesn't mean that there wasn't room for discussion. You don't want > feedback from the users? Are you going to treat all questions as > complaints, and all concerns as whining? > We want feedback from users, but not in the form of "This is bad and I don't like it." Not saying this happened on this list, but it sure happens a lot on #gaim. > Gaim dumped core on me, or at least that is what STDERR said, along > with a request for a backtrace. I couldn't find the core file to get > said backtrace, so I posted to this list. I was told "There's a reason > this is CVS. The bugs will be fixed when we find fixes." In this case your system probably set a size limit on core file to 0. Try 'ulimit -c unlimited' then run gaim from the same terminal. After you get a core see http://gaim.sf.net/gdb.php for how to get a bt. Other than the bt, it is often useful to tell us what you were doing at the time of segfault. Other information such as distro, gtk versions are less helpful, but they don't hurt. For example, recently we have a segfault-on-start problem with Gentoo users only. May I also add that it's not very useful to report bugs that you cannot reproduce? Also, a quick search on the sf tracker, this emailing list, and the sf forum would help prevent multiple bug reports. If we get the same bug report over and over again, it's easy to get annoyed by it. -- Ka-Hing "A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that worked." -- John Gall, _Systemantics_ |
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From: Richard H. <rm...@ap...> - 2003-04-02 18:14:20
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Ka-Hing Cheung <kh...@ja...> writes: > We want feedback from users, but not in the form of "This is bad and I > don't like it." Not saying this happened on this list, but it sure > happens a lot on #gaim. Sorry to hear that. > In this case your system probably set a size limit on core file to 0. > Try 'ulimit -c unlimited' then run gaim from the same terminal. After > you get a core see http://gaim.sf.net/gdb.php for how to get a bt. Thank you. It has stopped dumping core, however. At least for the time being. :) > Other than the bt, it is often useful to tell us what you were doing at > the time of segfault. Other information such as distro, gtk versions are > less helpful, but they don't hurt. For example, recently we have a > segfault-on-start problem with Gentoo users only. Will do. > May I also add that it's not very useful to report bugs that you > cannot reproduce? Obviously. > Also, a quick search on the sf tracker, this emailing list, and the > sf forum would help prevent multiple bug reports. If we get the same > bug report over and over again, it's easy to get annoyed by it. Understood. Thanks again. -- Lift me down, so I can make the Earth tremble. --Bucky Katt |
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