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Re: [Gaim-devel] Whats with the download?

[Jean C. <cj...@hu...>]

Hi, 
I don't know wich servers you are looking at, but on the official one
you can find the new fresh 0.60 

0.60 2003-04-05 05:00
	gaim-0.60-3.i386.rpm 1618060 382 i386.rpm 
        gaim-0.60-3.src.rpm 3019071 96 AnySource .rpm 
        gaim-0.60-3mdk.i586.rpm 1517812 0 Other.rpm 
        gaim-0.60-3mdk.src.rpm 3019105 0 AnySource .rpm 
        gaim-0.60.exe 1860903 1806 i386.exe (32-bit Windows) 
        gaim-0.60.tar.bz 22219758 3165 AnySource .bz2 
        gaim-0.60.tar.gz 2989283 1129 AnySource .gz
        

On Mon, 2003-04-07 at 18:54, Adrian Dannberg wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Jesus, first I mailed it to to Decklin, instead of the list and then I forgot 
> to change the Subject. Anyways, I wonder why nobody noticed but there are 
> only win0.60-alpha files on the servers. Not a single .bz .rpm or anything 
> for 0.60 on linux. The nightlies are dated older than the official 0.60 
> release. I use automake 1.7.3, so much for cvs ...
> 
> Adrian
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQE+ka1JFyp8AaAsy0wRArgEAKCV9ujGHADy4HzrTaIeCL2FenM4IQCgi5L+
> WkDVm224OvooUGsee6JUytI=
> =a+D8
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: 
> Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of bandwidth! 
> No other company gives more support or power for your dedicated server
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-- 
_  _ __ ____  __________________ ___ __ _     _

Jean Collonville 
 web : http://www.hungmaow.org
 icq : 10205857 
_  _ __ ____  ______________________________ ___ __ _   _

[Gaim-devel] Whats with the download?

[Adrian D. <adr...@gm...>]

=2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jesus, first I mailed it to to Decklin, instead of the list and then I forg=
ot=20
to change the Subject. Anyways, I wonder why nobody noticed but there are=20
only win0.60-alpha files on the servers. Not a single .bz .rpm or anything=
=20
for 0.60 on linux. The nightlies are dated older than the official 0.60=20
release. I use automake 1.7.3, so much for cvs ...

Adrian
=2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE+ka1JFyp8AaAsy0wRArgEAKCV9ujGHADy4HzrTaIeCL2FenM4IQCgi5L+
WkDVm224OvooUGsee6JUytI=3D
=3Da+D8
=2D----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [Gaim-devel] GTK and parent widgets

[Adrian D. <adr...@gm...>]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,
I wonder why nobody noticed but there are only win0.60-alpha files on the
servers. Not a single .bz .rpm or anything for 0.60 on linux. Hope that cvs
works.

Adrian
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE+kawAFyp8AaAsy0wRAkyJAKCnc6E3vxufk2X1WD3RHAjpsv/F5ACfbjgH
M4VSutWryTSRX1IcjsiBbS4=
=c9Yd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [Gaim-devel] GTK and parent widgets

[Robert M. <rob...@de...>]

On Sun, Apr 06, 2003 at 07:44:16PM -0400, Decklin Foster wrote:
> This seems to not be quite as simple. I tried the obvious (OK, not that
> obvious... why text_view is not a pointer escapes me):

I think this is because GtkImHtml extends GtkTextView, so it's struct
should contain the entirety of GtkTextView's as the first element, which
in turn contains GtkTextView's parent, all the way up to GObject. This
is easy to rectify, set the parent to the imhtml widget itself.

> But that crashes when we try to destroy the widget. I don't get this
> either, because we in buddy.c that tip window get destroyed and there's
> no crash. I could kludge around it by doing this:

The crash is more interesting. GtkTextView's parent turns out to be
GtkContainer, for the purpose of embedding widgets like images and such,
which means the removal of a child usually means shape-changing and
stuff is necessary. When Gtk goes to free up the tooltip it winds up
calling gtk_text_view_remove with the tooltip window as the parameter.
This function implements gtk_container_remove in the textview special-case.

Because we never actually added the tooltip to the textview as a child
element, and nor is it sane or correct to, this function's sanity check
(that it actually iterated through any child widgets) fails if the
GtkImHtml has no smileys/images/HRs in. 

The best fix for this I can't really fathom. I don't even know why
Cleanice calls any methods on the parent of the tooltip. Gtk2's default
theme engine doesn't seem to. The Gtk2 tooltip code doesn't ever seem to
set the parent on it's tip windows either. Maybe what we're actually
doing is hacking around a bug in Cleanice that we tickle because we
paint pango directly into our tip window, rather than using a GtkLabel
like the real tooltips do, so maybe the NULL-setting hack is the best
we can hope for.

> But that's just icky. What should I be doing here? My GTK-fu is
> extremely rusty.
> 
> -- 
> things change.
> de...@re...

Regards,
Rob

Re: [Gaim-devel] GTK and parent widgets

[Decklin F. <de...@re...>]

Robert McQueen writes:

> Funny, we fixed the exact same problem with the blist tooltips.

Yeah, I thought I remembered seeing something about it being fixed, so I
wasn't sure if I was going crazy for a minute :-)

> Cleanice's problem is fixed in their CVS,

thanks, I'll update my local packages.

> I'd guess we just need to do the same with our GtkIMHtml tooltips too.

This seems to not be quite as simple. I tried the obvious (OK, not that
obvious... why text_view is not a pointer escapes me):

diff -u -r1.170 gtkimhtml.c
--- gtkimhtml.c 5 Apr 2003 03:06:55 -0000       1.170
+++ gtkimhtml.c 6 Apr 2003 23:37:58 -0000
@@ -1354,6 +1356,7 @@
 
        imhtml->tip_timer = 0;
        imhtml->tip_window = gtk_window_new (GTK_WINDOW_POPUP);
+       imhtml->tip_window->parent = GTK_WIDGET (&imhtml->text_view);
        gtk_widget_set_app_paintable (imhtml->tip_window, TRUE);
        gtk_window_set_resizable (GTK_WINDOW (imhtml->tip_window), FALSE);
        gtk_widget_set_name (imhtml->tip_window, "gtk-tooltips");

But that crashes when we try to destroy the widget. I don't get this
either, because we in buddy.c that tip window get destroyed and there's
no crash. I could kludge around it by doing this:

@@ -379,6 +379,7 @@
                }
                /* We've left the cell.  Remove the timeout and create a new one below */
                if (GTK_IMHTML(imhtml)->tip_window) {
+                       GTK_IMHTML(imhtml)->tip_window->parent = NULL;
                        gtk_widget_destroy(GTK_IMHTML(imhtml)->tip_window);
                        GTK_IMHTML(imhtml)->tip_window = NULL;
                }
@@ -403,6 +404,7 @@
 {
        /* when leaving the widget, clear any current & pending tooltips and restore the cursor */
        if (GTK_IMHTML(imhtml)->tip_window) {
+               GTK_IMHTML(imhtml)->tip_window->parent = NULL;
                gtk_widget_destroy(GTK_IMHTML(imhtml)->tip_window);
                GTK_IMHTML(imhtml)->tip_window = NULL;
        }

But that's just icky. What should I be doing here? My GTK-fu is
extremely rusty.

-- 
things change.
de...@re...

Re: [Gaim-devel] make "away" not a window w/ dialog hint

[Decklin F. <de...@re...>]

Shaya Potter writes:

> The reason for this being that metacity views dialog's as being part
> of the parent, and unminimizable (is that a word?).

Actually... the more I think about it, the less sense the away message
window makes as a "dialog". *Maybe* transient, as it's subordinate to
the blist and not permanent, but it doesn't fulfill the "ask user for
more info before going ahead with something" definition of a dialog. I
still think this is a horribly misguided feature in metacity, however.
But then I'm sure Havoc thinks all sorts of things I've done in aewm are
stupid too (like not implementing _NET_ANYTHING). ;-)

As for the HIG issues...

This is really not worth adding a preference for. I would be perfectly
happy if we killed the window entirely, as I have myself on my buddy
list and can check my status that way. Whatever. But we should pick
something right and go with it.

I've been thinking a menu reorganization is probably in order. Allowing
for a check mark somewhere to say "yes, away is set" would probably be a
good idea. I'll have to think about that some more.

> and this hint just doesn't seem to accomplish anything usefull
> (besides perhaps under some window manager forcing it to be minimized
> with the parent)

Well, as i said, it's a semantic and not a behavioral hint (think <em>
versus <i> in HTML). We shouldn't concern ourself with the decisions
that users make (through their WM) about how to deal with that markup,
only with applying it correctly.

> shaya (oh and not subscribed, so cc me)

Sorry, didn't mean to leave you out of the loop last time.

-- 
things change.
de...@re...

Re: [Gaim-devel] make "away" not a window w/ dialog hint

[Shaya P. <sp...@cs...>]

Here's a unified diff as requested.

spotter@zaphod:~/cvs/gaim/src$ cvs diff -u away.c
Index: away.c
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/gaim/gaim/src/away.c,v
retrieving revision 1.93
diff -u -r1.93 away.c
--- away.c	5 Apr 2003 05:01:28 -0000	1.93
+++ away.c	6 Apr 2003 21:47:28 -0000
@@ -211,7 +211,7 @@
 		return;
 
 	if (!imaway) {
-		GAIM_DIALOG(imaway);
+		imaway = gtk_window_new(GTK_WINDOW_TOPLEVEL);
 		gtk_window_set_role(GTK_WINDOW(imaway), "imaway");
 		if (strlen(a->name))
 			 gtk_window_set_title(GTK_WINDOW(imaway), a->name);

as GAIM_DIALOG is just

#define GAIM_DIALOG(x)  x = gtk_window_new(GTK_WINDOW_TOPLEVEL); \
                        gtk_window_set_type_hint(GTK_WINDOW(x),
GDK_WINDOW_TYPE_HINT_DIALOG)

it's not much of a change, only removing the dialog hint.  The reason
for this being that metacity views dialog's as being part of the parent,
and unminimizable (is that a word?). I know I like to go "auto away" and
minimize the message out of the way, but with the current source I can't
do that.  

I still want the window around (hence why the patch to make the window a
pref doesn't help me), and this hint just doesn't seem to accomplish
anything usefull (besides perhaps under some window manager forcing it
to be minimized with the parent) as most window managers (based on what
people say in #gaim) seem to ignore the hint.  I don't mind the dialog
hint on things like prefs, but it seems overkill for the away window.

shaya (oh and not subscribed, so cc me)

On Sun, 2003-04-06 at 14:40, Shaya Potter wrote:
> On Sun, 2003-04-06 at 14:36, Robert Love wrote:
> > On Sun, 2003-04-06 at 04:14, Shaya Potter wrote:
> > > here's a simple patch that lets me minimize the away window, and not
> > > have it act like an always on top dialog.
> > 
> > Can't we just get rid of this silly window altogether?
> > 
> > There was some sentiment to this effect on GNOME Footnotes yesterday. 
> > If I recall, a chap named Chris Rivera posted a patch to make the away
> > dialog an option.
> 
> well, both are valid approaches I think.
> 
> 1) the windows itself should be an option
> 2) the window should be an option if it's a dialog or not.
> 
> though giving all these options doesn't seem very HIGy :)

Re: [Gaim-devel] make "away" not a window w/ dialog hint

[Shaya P. <sp...@cs...>]

On Sun, 2003-04-06 at 14:36, Robert Love wrote:
> On Sun, 2003-04-06 at 04:14, Shaya Potter wrote:
> > here's a simple patch that lets me minimize the away window, and not
> > have it act like an always on top dialog.
> 
> Can't we just get rid of this silly window altogether?
> 
> There was some sentiment to this effect on GNOME Footnotes yesterday. 
> If I recall, a chap named Chris Rivera posted a patch to make the away
> dialog an option.

well, both are valid approaches I think.

1) the windows itself should be an option
2) the window should be an option if it's a dialog or not.

though giving all these options doesn't seem very HIGy :)

Re: [Gaim-devel] make "away" not a window w/ dialog hint

[Robert L. <rm...@te...>]

On Sun, 2003-04-06 at 04:14, Shaya Potter wrote:
> here's a simple patch that lets me minimize the away window, and not
> have it act like an always on top dialog.

Can't we just get rid of this silly window altogether?

There was some sentiment to this effect on GNOME Footnotes yesterday. 
If I recall, a chap named Chris Rivera posted a patch to make the away
dialog an option.

	Robert Love

Re: [Gaim-devel] GTK and parent widgets

[Robert M. <rob...@de...>]

On Sun, Apr 06, 2003 at 09:49:18AM -0400, Decklin Foster wrote:
> Cleanice (the GTK theme) was segfaulting whenever gtkimhtml popped up a
> tooltip. I tracked it down to a line like this:
> 
> strstr (g_type_name (GTK_WIDGET_TYPE (widget->parent)), "CheckButton")
> 
> where widget->parent was NULL. This is the only widget I've seen this
> problem with, but I'm not familiar enough with GTK internals (or used to
> sort of vaguely be, but then 2.0 came out) to understand who's at fault
> here. Is it a bug in gaim, for not giving the widget a parent? (It was
> not immediately apparent how to fix that.) Or should cleanice not assume
> there will be one?
> 
> This happens inside the gtk_paint_layout call on line 1327.

Funny, we fixed the exact same problem with the blist tooltips. It's a
bug in both Gaim and in Cleanice. Our bug for making tooltip windows
without setting the parent like Gtk does on it's tooltip windows, and
Cleanice for not checking parent was a valid pointer before
dereferencing it. Cleanice's problem is fixed in their CVS, so it
shouldn't crash, and we fixed it in the case of the buddy list so it
doesn't tickle that bug in released Cleanice versions anyway. See:
 http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/gaim/gaim/src/buddy.c.diff?r1=1.463&r2=1.464

I'd guess we just need to do the same with our GtkIMHtml tooltips too.

Regards,
Rob

[Gaim-devel] GTK and parent widgets

[Decklin F. <de...@re...>]

Cleanice (the GTK theme) was segfaulting whenever gtkimhtml popped up a
tooltip. I tracked it down to a line like this:

strstr (g_type_name (GTK_WIDGET_TYPE (widget->parent)), "CheckButton")

where widget->parent was NULL. This is the only widget I've seen this
problem with, but I'm not familiar enough with GTK internals (or used to
sort of vaguely be, but then 2.0 came out) to understand who's at fault
here. Is it a bug in gaim, for not giving the widget a parent? (It was
not immediately apparent how to fix that.) Or should cleanice not assume
there will be one?

This happens inside the gtk_paint_layout call on line 1327.

-- 
things change.
de...@re...

Re: [Gaim-devel] make "away" not a window w/ dialog hint

[Decklin F. <de...@re...>]

Shaya Potter writes:

> here's a simple patch that lets me minimize the away window, and not
> have it act like an always on top dialog.

> > 		imaway = gtk_window_new(GTK_WINDOW_TOPLEVEL);

This is wrong. _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE is a semantic hint; If your window
manager is making all such windows "always on top" or now allowing you
to iconify them, and you don't like that, you should fix your window
manager.

Also, please use diff -u.

(Aside: why doesn't gtk set WM_TRANSIENT_FOR as well? "Dialog", to me,
implies transience. But perhaps there was a good reason for this
change... didn't we use GTK_WINDOW_DIALOG at some point?)

-- 
things change.
de...@re...

[Gaim-devel] make "away" not a window w/ dialog hint

[Shaya P. <sp...@cs...>]

here's a simple patch that lets me minimize the away window, and not
have it act like an always on top dialog.

spotter@zaphod:~/cvs/gaim/src$ cvs diff away.c
Index: away.c
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/gaim/gaim/src/away.c,v
retrieving revision 1.93
diff -r1.93 away.c
214c214
< 		GAIM_DIALOG(imaway);
---
> 		imaway = gtk_window_new(GTK_WINDOW_TOPLEVEL);

Re: [Gaim-devel] Support for SMS via ICQ

[F. <j_r...@ya...>]

On Sat, Apr 05, 2003 at 10:00:09AM -0500, Luke Schierer wrote:
> to add support for this, you would not need to know gtk, the ui code is 
> entirely separated from the protocol code, and there is no gtk in oscar, 

At a protocol level no, but at an user interface level, you need to add
dialog box for the SMS message, or at least have a menu item saying
"Send via SMS", or something similar. This is what scares me, seriously!

> in fact, other than the oscar.c file, all of our oscar (and thus icq) 
> support is libfaim, which could be yanked out of gaim for use in any 
> program. i know kingant has tried to get sms working at least once, 
> thanks for the pointer.

José Fonseca

Re: [Gaim-devel] Support for SMS via ICQ

[Luke S. <lsc...@us...>]

to add support for this, you would not need to know gtk, the ui code is 
entirely separated from the protocol code, and there is no gtk in oscar, 
in fact, other than the oscar.c file, all of our oscar (and thus icq) 
support is libfaim, which could be yanked out of gaim for use in any 
program. i know kingant has tried to get sms working at least once, 
thanks for the pointer.
luke

On Sat, Apr 05, 2003 at 03:36:14PM +0100, Jos? Fonseca wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> First I'd like to congratulate all you guys for the superb program
> you've made. The last release has both great look and functionality.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't switch only to GAIM because I frequently send SMS
> via ICQ (to be in touch with my girlfriend which is many miles away..
> *sniff*), and GAIM SMS support only works for US phones.
> 
> I've been avaliating what it would take to add ICQ SMS support for GAIM.
> On libicq2000 source, file src/SNAC-SRV.cpp,
> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/libicq2000/libicq2000/src/SNAC-SRV.cpp?rev=HEAD&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
> . The method right on top explains most of the proccess. GAIM already as
> a function, aim_icq_sendxmlreq(), which can be used as a base for this,
> in src/protocols/oscar/icq.c
> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/gaim/gaim/src/protocols/oscar/icq.c?rev=HEAD&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
> .
> 
> Spite GAIM plugin system seems easy, I know nothing about GTK
> programming, so it would take me too much time to hack on this. I'd
> rather keep that old ICKLE window open to send the SMSes. But in case
> anybody wants to add this it can use this information I've gathered as a
> jumpstart.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jos? Fonseca
> 
> PS: I'm not subscribed to this list, so CC'm if you have comments.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: 
> Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of bandwidth! 
> No other company gives more support or power for your dedicated server
> http://click.atdmt.com/AFF/go/sdnxxaff00300020aff/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> Gaim-devel mailing list
> Gai...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gaim-devel

-- 
-This email is made of 100% recycled electrons.

[Gaim-devel] Support for SMS via ICQ

[F. <j_r...@ya...>]

Hi,

First I'd like to congratulate all you guys for the superb program
you've made. The last release has both great look and functionality.

Unfortunately I can't switch only to GAIM because I frequently send SMS
via ICQ (to be in touch with my girlfriend which is many miles away..
*sniff*), and GAIM SMS support only works for US phones.

I've been avaliating what it would take to add ICQ SMS support for GAIM.
On libicq2000 source, file src/SNAC-SRV.cpp,
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/libicq2000/libicq2000/src/SNAC-SRV.cpp?rev=HEAD&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
. The method right on top explains most of the proccess. GAIM already as
a function, aim_icq_sendxmlreq(), which can be used as a base for this,
in src/protocols/oscar/icq.c
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/gaim/gaim/src/protocols/oscar/icq.c?rev=HEAD&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
.

Spite GAIM plugin system seems easy, I know nothing about GTK
programming, so it would take me too much time to hack on this. I'd
rather keep that old ICKLE window open to send the SMSes. But in case
anybody wants to add this it can use this information I've gathered as a
jumpstart.

Regards,

José Fonseca

PS: I'm not subscribed to this list, so CC'm if you have comments.

Re: [Gaim-devel] AOL Harassment

[Nathan W. <fac...@fa...>]

On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 06:20:01PM -0700, Bryce C wrote:
> With last night's CVS tarball, I'm being harassed by AOL's bots.
>=20
> AOL Instant Messenger: You have been disconnected from the AOL Instant
> Messenger Service (SM) for accessing the AOL network with unauthorized
> software.  You can download a FREE fully-featured, and authorized
> client, here http://www.aol.com/aim/download2.html .
>=20
> Also, what's up with the right-side oriented menus, message display,
> etc?


If you click that link when it comes up, you'll understand the error,
as well as the right-orientation and all the other quirks ;-)


Nathan

--=20
Nathan Walp             || fac...@fa...
GPG Fingerprint:        ||   http://faceprint.com/
5509 6EF3 928B 2363 9B2B  DA17 3E46 2CDC 492D DB7E

Re: [Gaim-devel] tabs

[Spundun B. <sp...@IS...>]

Thanx guys for your reply,
I can imagine irc culture is different than mailing lists...(me not
being very familiar with irc).  People think twice before sending an
email but not quite the same story on irc...

On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 14:26, Luke Schierer wrote:
> i can't get people to read the topic 9 times out of 10, much less read the 
Speaking of which a feature request.....
How about a pop-up tooltip/baloon for the topic box. When the mouse
cursor is on the topic box in irc window... a tooltip similar to the
ones you see over MS-windows system tray or MS-word sticky notes could
popup (with web links clickable may be?)

Hope this helps
Spundun

Re: [Gaim-devel] AOL Harassment

[Jason W. <wi...@ox...>]

Hey Bryce,
  
   The items you mention were part of an April Fool's joke.  They've since been removed -- as you'll find in tonight's CVS tarball.  


On 02 Apr 2003 18:20:01 -0700
Bryce C <Pl...@Br...> wrote:

> With last night's CVS tarball, I'm being harassed by AOL's bots.
> 
> AOL Instant Messenger: You have been disconnected from the AOL Instant
> Messenger Service (SM) for accessing the AOL network with unauthorized
> software.  You can download a FREE fully-featured, and authorized
> client, here http://www.aol.com/aim/download2.html .
> 
> Also, what's up with the right-side oriented menus, message display,
> etc?
> -- 
> Bryce C <Pl...@Br...>
> CoBryce Communications
> 

[Gaim-devel] AOL Harassment

[Bryce C <Pl...@Br...>]

With last night's CVS tarball, I'm being harassed by AOL's bots.

AOL Instant Messenger: You have been disconnected from the AOL Instant
Messenger Service (SM) for accessing the AOL network with unauthorized
software.  You can download a FREE fully-featured, and authorized
client, here http://www.aol.com/aim/download2.html .

Also, what's up with the right-side oriented menus, message display,
etc?
--=20
Bryce C <Pl...@Br...>
CoBryce Communications

Re: [Gaim-devel] tabs

[Ethan B. <ebl...@cs...>]

Spundun Bhatt spake unto us the following wisdom:
> -> I again very strongly reccomend removing the "no more talking about
> gentoo, you're not smart enough" part from the #gaim topic line. The
> statement at the same time being very strong is also not at all
> defendable. It doesnt convey any information to a gentoo user who is not
> smart enough. I dont  see *a single comment* on the faq about the gentoo
> distro. If you are sick and tired of gentoo questions (which apparently
> you are..) you should add a q/a on the faq page.... I am a gentoo user.

[snip]

This is my first and ONLY post on this topic, as discussing Gentoo
disgusts me.

That topic has been gone for hours.  It was not set in response to a
problem with gentoo and gaim, it was set because, as usual, the
instant gentoo comes up five gentoo users come out of the woodwork and
start trashing other distributions/package systems/whatever for
reasons they do not understand and cannot defend.  Every *single* time
the word 'gentoo' comes up in that channel, some gentoo user starts
talking about how much better gentoo is than everything else ... and
then typically proves to all of us exactly how much he/she does not
know about why gentoo may or may not be better than anything at all,
including a dead sheep.

I know that not all gentoo users are like that, and I know that there
are users of other distributions who do the same thing.  The argument
at the time was over gentoo.

This issue is closed.

Ethan

--=20
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will
look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the
blackest."
                -- Mahatma Gandhi

Re: [Gaim-devel] tabs

[Ka-Hing C. <kh...@ja...>]

On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 13:33, Spundun Bhatt wrote:
> Hi, I am one of the lurkers on the list....
> I think I have some constructive suggestions on the topic.
> 
> -> I think you could easily have a section in faq specifically for the
> recent changes esp. in the cvs and the logic behind that, and the
> direction its going... you could make a special mention of the section
> in the topic statement on irc so that the cvs users specifically go to
> the faq and checkout the latest issues and a discussion on that. The way
> you guys have put it on this thread I think it should be lot easier to
> maintain such a section than to answer everybody separately. It will
> save the hassel for all the sides.

unfortunately, an observed fact is that not many people read the topic.

> -> alternatively(or at the same time) any update to the cvs which may
> rais obvious questions can be discussed by the person who commited it on
> this mailing list sort of preemptively it will make being on this list
> more exciting :) ... ( This list definatly lacks activity considering
> its one of the most active opensource projects..barring today ofcourse
> :) )
> 

I would guess that less people subscribt to gaim-devel than
gaim-commits, so it doesn't seem to be too useful

> -> I again very strongly reccomend removing the "no more talking about
> gentoo, you're not smart enough" part from the #gaim topic line. The
> statement at the same time being very strong is also not at all
> defendable. It doesnt convey any information to a gentoo user who is not
> smart enough. I dont  see *a single comment* on the faq about the gentoo
> distro. If you are sick and tired of gentoo questions (which apparently
> you are..) you should add a q/a on the faq page.... I am a gentoo user.
> Gentoo makes it very easy to use gaim-cvs (which might be one of the
> reasons you are getting "too many users" using cvs.) Its a distro which
> is gaining a lot of popularity and gaim could use it for very extensive
> testing. I dont know whats the exact nature of problems the gentoo users
> face... but I am willing to help write a short note on that... (If the
> issues are just too elaborate.. you could direct them to the gentoo docs
> page first rather then telling them they are not smart enough) but my
> experience with both gaim-cvs and gentoo is very amaturish.
> 

Actually that particular topic was unrelated to gaim. There was a
discussion about gentoo's packaging system, and it didn't seem to be too
constructive. I agree that it may hurt the feeling of some gentoo users,
but it was quite effective in killing that discussion so that more
useful things (like answering gaim related questions) can take place.

- Ka-Hing

the increase in tension worldwide (as evidenced by crime  and whatnot)
over that time period looks a lot like Linux  growth since 1993  ``Linux
linked to worldwide crime epidemic!!''

Re: [Gaim-devel] tabs

[Luke S. <lsc...@us...>]

On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 01:33:45PM -0800, Spundun Bhatt wrote:
> Hi, I am one of the lurkers on the list....
> I think I have some constructive suggestions on the topic.
> 
> -> I think you could easily have a section in faq specifically for the
> recent changes esp. in the cvs and the logic behind that, and the
> direction its going... you could make a special mention of the section
> in the topic statement on irc so that the cvs users specifically go to
> the faq and checkout the latest issues and a discussion on that. The way

i can't get people to read the topic 9 times out of 10, much less read the 
faq. the faq has been in the topic for MONTHS and still over half of users 
in #gaim haven't read it. pertinent issues are also often in the topic 
already, and again, people will join and ask anyway. 

> you guys have put it on this thread I think it should be lot easier to
> maintain such a section than to answer everybody separately. It will
> save the hassel for all the sides.
> -> alternatively(or at the same time) any update to the cvs which may
> rais obvious questions can be discussed by the person who commited it on
> this mailing list sort of preemptively it will make being on this list
> more exciting :) ... ( This list definatly lacks activity considering
> its one of the most active opensource projects..barring today ofcourse
> :) )
> 
> -> I strongly reccomend changing the topic line on the #gaim (the "using
> cvs revokes your right to complain" part) by one of the suggesstions
> above. Probably the strong words are meant to be taken lightly but they
> are not conveying the right immpression (my opinion)

the topic has very gradually moved to such language. 

> 
> -> I again very strongly reccomend removing the "no more talking about
> gentoo, you're not smart enough" part from the #gaim topic line. The
> statement at the same time being very strong is also not at all
> defendable. It doesnt convey any information to a gentoo user who is not
> smart enough. I dont  see *a single comment* on the faq about the gentoo
> distro. If you are sick and tired of gentoo questions (which apparently
> you are..) you should add a q/a on the faq page.... I am a gentoo user.
> Gentoo makes it very easy to use gaim-cvs (which might be one of the
> reasons you are getting "too many users" using cvs.) Its a distro which
> is gaining a lot of popularity and gaim could use it for very extensive

the biggest reason we dislike gentoo is the falacy that spending time 
compiling every package all the time really saves you that much time in 
optimisation. the biggest reason that hits #gaim so often is that often the 
most clueless users we see end up to be using gentoo, and 2)despite what the 
gento emerge apparently says, there have been 3 or 4 times when there have 
been gentoo-specific problems. if you have tracked gaim development for long 
enough, you will remember slack and mandrake getting slammed for similar 
things (ie distro-specific issues). 

> testing. I dont know whats the exact nature of problems the gentoo users
> face... but I am willing to help write a short note on that... (If the
> issues are just too elaborate.. you could direct them to the gentoo docs
> page first rather then telling them they are not smart enough) but my
> experience with both gaim-cvs and gentoo is very amaturish.
> 

basically, if people read the faq and topic more often, we wouldn't be 
discussing this at length now.  for a while i kept the faq VERY up to date, 
but my consistent failure to get people to read the faq has gottem me 
discouraged with reguards to it. equally discuraging is the fact that if i 
put cvs-specific stuff in the faq, even if i say its specific to cvs, next 
thing i know, i see 10 or 20 users asking me about using feature x that is 
stated to be cvs-only in 0.59.x, this makes me want to keep the faq 
oriented to the release. 

its a great idea, but still not as easy as just subscribing to the 
gaim-commits digest.
luke

Re: [Gaim-devel] tabs

[Spundun B. <sp...@IS...>]

Hi, I am one of the lurkers on the list....
I think I have some constructive suggestions on the topic.

-> I think you could easily have a section in faq specifically for the
recent changes esp. in the cvs and the logic behind that, and the
direction its going... you could make a special mention of the section
in the topic statement on irc so that the cvs users specifically go to
the faq and checkout the latest issues and a discussion on that. The way
you guys have put it on this thread I think it should be lot easier to
maintain such a section than to answer everybody separately. It will
save the hassel for all the sides.
-> alternatively(or at the same time) any update to the cvs which may
rais obvious questions can be discussed by the person who commited it on
this mailing list sort of preemptively it will make being on this list
more exciting :) ... ( This list definatly lacks activity considering
its one of the most active opensource projects..barring today ofcourse
:) )

-> I strongly reccomend changing the topic line on the #gaim (the "using
cvs revokes your right to complain" part) by one of the suggesstions
above. Probably the strong words are meant to be taken lightly but they
are not conveying the right immpression (my opinion)

-> I again very strongly reccomend removing the "no more talking about
gentoo, you're not smart enough" part from the #gaim topic line. The
statement at the same time being very strong is also not at all
defendable. It doesnt convey any information to a gentoo user who is not
smart enough. I dont  see *a single comment* on the faq about the gentoo
distro. If you are sick and tired of gentoo questions (which apparently
you are..) you should add a q/a on the faq page.... I am a gentoo user.
Gentoo makes it very easy to use gaim-cvs (which might be one of the
reasons you are getting "too many users" using cvs.) Its a distro which
is gaining a lot of popularity and gaim could use it for very extensive
testing. I dont know whats the exact nature of problems the gentoo users
face... but I am willing to help write a short note on that... (If the
issues are just too elaborate.. you could direct them to the gentoo docs
page first rather then telling them they are not smart enough) but my
experience with both gaim-cvs and gentoo is very amaturish.

Hope this helps
Spundun

On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 11:21, Rob Flynn wrote:
> > Because, contrary to how this thread might look, we *do* get plenty of
> > useful feedback.  There are stretches of days at a time where all of
> > the feedback is redundant and hardly useful, but fortunately they
> > aren't contiguous.  :-)
> >
> > Ethan
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> I want to say that we DO appreciate ALL feedback from our users.  You're
> right that there isn't a lot of discussion and/or reporting of bugs and
> such on the mailing list.  I gets MANY IMs each day from people who usually
> all say the same thing.
> 
> We don't mean to come off as sounding rude.  Sometimes we've just had a bad
> day, are sick, or have been bombarded all day with the same question.  I
> think that we (gaim) have one of the more approachable development teams in
> comparison to some of the other projects out there.
> 
> We usually try to take the time to listen to what you've got to say.
> Granted, a lot of times when I get an IM, I respond very shortly and just
> sa "busy. email me."   I don't do this to be rude, but I have a regular job
> where I have to get things done, so I just send people to e-mail. I do,
> however, reply to their message eventually.
> 
> We like the fact that we allow people to use our CVS, to help out with
> development, and to talk to us and join in on discussions about it.  That's
> what open source is all about.  That's what having a good project is all
> about.
> 
> I think that after this week, everything will be cool and back to normal. I
> think we're all just getting anxious.  We're already behind our initial
> schedule on releasing 0.60.  We, as developers, want it released just as
> much as you, as the users, do.
> 
> After that, we can kick back and have a nice {cold|warm} glass of
> {beer|milk|soda} and enjoy the world again.
> 
> This has been a public service announcement by a rambling idiot.  ;-)
> 
> Rob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Gaim-devel] tabs

[Mark D. <ma...@ki...>]

The ChangeLog isn't really a pain to add to or edit.  I think the feeling 
is that the ChangeLog is aimed at people who know nothing about the 
development of Gaim, and have no need to.  Because of this, the ChangeLog 
is really only used for functionality changes and improvements and maybe 
major bugfixes (this is the case for many of the 0.59.x changes).  Also, 
the ChangeLog is really only accurate for releases (for example, the 
ChangeLog said that gaim 0.60 had file transfer for a week or so when it 
didn't).

If you're really interested in see what files have changed, gaim-commits 
should work fairly well.  The cvs log, while often having useless or 
uninformational messages, almost always mentions any change that people 
will be interested in.

I would find it amazingly annoying to have to edit a ChangeLog file every 
single time I make a commit.  Just thinking about that gives me the 
willies.

Once 0.60 is released, and gaim gets back to a somewhat regular release 
schedule, there should be fewer non-programmers using CVS, and all of this 
should become less of an issue.  I for one don't see any need to change 
how any of that is being done.

And yes, some of us gaim developers have been, er, let's say "snappy" to 
people who have asked questions like "i cant edit buddy list why?," and a 
lot of that is probably uncalled for, but for the love of God, read the 
topic when you go to #gaim.

-Mark