First, please take what I'm about to say in the spirit intended, namely constructive criticism. I'm very grateful to the phpWS and module developers for putting out such incredible software under the GPL.
Now for the mean stuff :-). The Module Forge website fails to serve the purpose it should serve. Let me illustrate using two examples:
1. I am Joe Newbie, I just installed phpWS and now I'm looking for cool new modules to add. I head on over to the ModForge, and the main paragraph, explaining the difference between Add-ins, Modules, and Plugins is very useful (explains the site banner ;-)). Cool. Take me to the Modules. Huh, the word "Modules" is not clickable. Let's check the main menu. Maybe 'Resources'? Nope, that's not it. Nothing in the FAQ either. Where is that "Download" link that *every* website offering something to download always has, displayed prominently somewhere near the top of the page?!
Three page scrolls down, at the bottom of a bunch of 'wierd' links, I finally find 'Released Files'. Bingo. Click. Huh. I wonder what each of these modules does. Some I can guess. Some, like FAQ and Search, seem to be repitions of stuff that came installed with 0.8.2. Others, like Gig List and Leads, mean nothing to me. Where are the descriptions? User opinions or ratings? Finally, are these the latest versions available? I had heard somewhere that Gallery is now in version 1.3 and I think I just read an announcement about a weather forecast module ...
2. I am Mike Hacker, and I've been messing around with phpWS and its modules for a while. I'd like to hang around with the user community, find out what's new, what works, what hacks people have improvised and what bugs people have reported/fixed. Where is this done? On the mailing lists? the 3 forums? the announcement/news section of ModForge? The module creators' own websites? What about the forums for the Core site? I'm pretty sure I saw discussions about modules there too.
Hopefully, you get the point. A *serious* amount of consolidation and streamlining needs to take place. The most *important* function for ModForge is as an information gateway: When a user goes to ModForge, they need a list of available modules and their descriptions. they need to know where to download any given module (where the author uploads the updates) and where to report bugs/suggestions for that module. They need to know where to seek help for a given module (it maybe the general help forum, or the author's own forum).
I realize I've written all this from a user, not a developer, perspective, but from what I'm seeing, developers don't really need the resources offered by ModForge, since many modules have their own homes on the web. Perhaps having a single developer forum where they can all exchange ideas would be useful, but that's about it, really. Mostly, they could just use ModForge as a central repository of basic *information* about their module for the users to follow: A single place to announce availability/updates.
Sorry for the extremely long post, but I hope it did offer some constructive ideas for moving phpWS forward.
Tamer
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Modforge's best and intended purpose is to inform users of whats available. imho.
i go to modforge to look for modules i need. i expect to find a description and a link to the download (possible some more info in the mods developer's site). i check the forums if there are questions i can answer or if i have something to ask. if a have a question about a specific mod, i email the dev.
i think the forums @ modforge are very useful as a general module discussion area. it is also nice to know what people want/ need... but the area was so quiet for a long time that i think ppl have forgotten about it.. on the other hand i do believe that if users get answers they'll come back :)
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Speaking of forums, I just realized that there's a forum called "Plug-ins" (to add insult to injury!) under the main phpWebSite forums, and it's active.
Add that to my list of gripes :-)
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Well, I can't say I disagree with many items on your gripe list. Now, let's phrase it positively.
Let's ask for a forum which is only for announcements of current module releases. This would give developers a place announce the releases, and they can just include the same description of their module each time.
While it would be nice to have a central download site with good descriptions of all the modules currently available, I think that's beyond the scope of the SourceForge site. It would mean multiple download sources, more work for the (volunteer) webmeister, more opportunities for miscommunication and ruffled feathers. On the other hand, there's nothing against including links to the SourceForge files in the WebLinks module, is there? Developers could upload files to the forge, then submit a new link (including that nifty description.)
As for forums... the only way to increase traffic is to be generous with your wisdom and make the site worth tuning in to. If developers will help users with module issues, it will be a useful (and active) site for users. If developers help each other with programming questions, they'll build a useful forum for each other.
Which is why you've already gotten two answers to your comments.
Amgine
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1. Release announcements: Mod authors should be asked to submit an announcement/news item to the phpWS version of ModForge. The announcement should contain module name, version, brief description, links to demos and download, and indication of preferred forum for help/bugs/suggestions (this could be the SF system, or the author's own). This is almost exactly what CMS's are for: News announcements :-). People can post comments with thanks or additional info, but the primary item would be the announcement. This category should have a topic area devoted to it and should probably be the primary announcement category.
2. What's available: The info from the release annoucements (mod name, author, description, links for download, etc.) needs to be tabulated, kept current, and made prominently available to site visitors. This would be the section that would get the most traffic by people looking to download modules. I'm not sure what the best format for this is, but at a minimum, it could be a bunch of static HTML pages on the ModForge phpWS site. If module releases accelerate, some more automated system could be thought up (a new module?!).
3. Developer info: Probably a static page (or pages) on the phpWS ModForge site describing where information release announcements should be sent and what they should contain. Also, this section should have directions for using the SF system if the mod author doesn't want to host their own development platform. Recommendations about support forums (see below) should be made here.
That should be it for the phpWS ModForge.
4. Support: The best format for this is forums, and until phpWS gets its own kick-ass forum module, SourceForge is it! Some mod developers will want to host their own forums/support system, but the SF forums should be the default destination and developers should be encouraged to honor this. Given the current volume of traffic, one help forum is probably enough, with posters asked to include the module's name in a subject line tag when posting questions.
5. Suggestions/Ideas/Open Discussion: again SF forums. Bug tracking should be done using the SF tracker or through the developers own system (developer's choice).
6. Developer discussion: since I'm not a developer, I don't know what medium people would find convenient. Forums would be more accessible to non-developers (which could be good or bad), and mailing lists would be more private. I think there's a small enough number of module developers you guys could figure out what you prefer pretty easily.
That's it. Unless I missed something big, anything that's not mentioned above could be deleted/discontinued (streamlined :-)), including the plugin forum on the Core SF site. The Core phpWS could use Hub-it to display the release announcements from ModForge.
With the exception of the transition effort, what I outlined would not be harder to maintain than the current system, and would certainly be a whole lot easier for users.
Thanks for taking the time to read,
Tamer
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Good thoughts, it seems, one and all. I still think using WebLinks we could keep relatively current lists of What's available for end-users, but then I'm trying to put all the workload on the developers [grin /].
Any thoughts from you, Ed?
Amgine
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Just a quick addition. It just occurred to me that it's worth taking a look at how the older, more established CMSs handle this process. For example, take a look at:
1. I am Joe Webmaster, and I set up a project on SF to help developers get their modules put in one place and offer assistance to developers and users. I receive little to no help from developers, as most seem to be as flaky as a New England blizzard. I work my hardest on trying to get the word out there. I work closely with the core team to make sure both sites work well together. The more time I spend on the site, the less grateful the users seem to be, to the point of me saying "the hell with it" and closing shop. How's that for hypothetical?
Now, here is what happened when I had the downloads plugin (at the time I was still running .7.10). The plugin would auto generate an announcement when I approved a download. However, no one ever seemed to want to go back and update the URL if they changed the link so MANY of the the downloads were non existent. Every file had a description, blah blah blah.
Someone on the main site begins to get irritated about this and posts an article. I respond by moving the site to my OWN server and updating to .8.2. However, my old plugin doesn't work on this version and the module that does work is missing some of the features I had in the plugin. I don't feel like mucking around with that again, in addition to making sure the data in the database will work with the new module. In addition, there's the issue of all the broken submissions.
It was suggested that all downloads come from one place. Since SF has that facility already, I chose to use it. It is a bit more work for developers, but in the long run it is beneficial to the community at large. BTW, you CAN get descriptions of the files by simply clicking on the category header (ie Quotes) and should give you a view of the release notes. Actually READING the notes would let you know what the version is and if it's the latest, in addition to looking at the release date and again at the name of the file which usually indicates a version number.
Since I moved to this approach, I have had a number of the module aurhors sign up to the project and start uploading their modules. This I consider a success for the phpWS community as a whole.
I'm sorry if "Resources" didn't bring you to where you wanted to be, and there's no "Downloads" link, and you have to scroll a bit to see the "Release Files" link.
I'm also sorry that an explanation of what a module, plugin and addon did't provide you with that instant link to the downloads. Maybe if I put a download link in every block all over the site? Would that help?
As for user opinions or ratings, there were little to none when I used the downloads plugin, so I saw NO need to reintroduce it.
As for the forums, the modules/plugins forums under the core site were set up a long time ago when they first started phpWS. SF won't let you easily delete these forums once you make them. In essence you're stuck with them once you have them.
Consolidation isn't an option for the way this project is set up. The core team is working on phpWS for their purposes only (including whatever modules they produce). They are using it to run the intranet of Appalachian State University. They can only support what they are working on. I too was frustrated that they didn't seem to have a central place for mod developers and users, so I contacted them and they thought it'd be great to have a separate project and site for 3rd party module development.
Which is what the ModForge is. This is something NOT being supported (timewise, resourcewise) by the core team, but by me and a handful of developers connected with the project. I've worked with some of the project's senior people to make sure that what we have on the site is consistent, and we do plan on making both the core site and module site work better with each other (including posting news from each other's sites) . I am also working with them to remove any vestiges of "Plugins" but that is of low priority to them as they rush to complete the Falllout code.
I'm sorry if I've seemed to have failed to provide you with everything you so desire. I do have a life outside this project as well. I can spend my time on other pursuits and just close this thing down. I am working almost single handedly on this site. None of the other developers really tend to contribute more than their code on this, and that's a shame. I am not about to spend every waking moment making it so all you have to do is skim instead of read, nor am I going to populate the weblinks with links to the files you can get by clicking the released files link. Why? because developers don't and won't keep their weblink entry up to date.
Above all there were some small suggestions that may work and I'll try out, but above all, you don't know what's going on behind the scenes to make these kinds of judgements.
I'm tired of justifying things and explaining things. I'm going on vacation soon, and I may just shut the site down when I get back. You all definitely don't appreciate the time and effort and work that went into this project.
Ed
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I'm tempted to up the ante here, but I won't. You're clearly feeling unappreciated, and that's a shitty feeling to have when you've put so much volunteer time and effort into a project, which you clearly have.
First, the small stuff. Thanks for the prominent 'Download' links; it's what most visitors to the site are looking for, so it might as well be highlighted. The 'module announcement' forum is a good addition (IMO, a module announcement 'topic' under site announcements would be more prominent, be under your direct control (no off-topic posts would be made), allow for user comments/ratings about the release, and be easy to retrieve (just click on the module announcement topic icon for a history of announcements. You could even put a link to that on the main menu ;-)). However, I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth, so the forum is fine :-)). As for consolidating forums, it's easy once you make the decision: Just post a message whose subject is "THIS FORUM IS NOW CLOSED - PLEASE READ" and whose body explains where the announcements/discussions are taking place.
Now the big stuff. My main point was that ModForge ought to be primarily an *information* repository, not a *software* repository. Rather than try to herd uncooperative developers into signing up for CVS access, uploading modules, and using SF resources, you'd ask them to do *one and only one* thing: Post a single announcement for every release, with basic info in a specific format, and a link to their site where it can be downloaded (it doesn't have to be a direct link, since those will likely change). I'll bet you won't have problems with "flaky" developers then!
Why fight the current? If developers want to use their own resources, let them! There's no real "benefit to the community at large" from a central file repository. If developers think their module is complex enough to deserve its own bug-tracking system and forums, then let them run their own bug-tracker and forums (some do!). As long as you (and by extension, visitors to ModForge) know *where* everything is, there's no problem.
Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. I sincerely hope you enjoy your vacation (it sounds like you need it, man!).
Tamer
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The point is, and we've tried this already, we do let developers post whatever they want about new modules. We even gave them a download module (nothing more than a glorified links module tweaked for downloads) and it was used. However, down the road, the files get moved, websites get moved or canned, and guess what...the file is no longer available. It's of no use to anyone then.
Now I feel as if I'm being pulled in two directions at once, I have a group saying central repository good, and another saying bad. Personally I am in favor of the central repository and guess what...so are the majority of developers I have talked to and signed up to the project. So ya know what, I'm leaving as is. If you don't like, you are more than welcome to go start your own "information repository".
As for the forums, people will still post to it, even if I say it's closed, and then wonder why no one responds. Starting a project and anticipating its needs 6 months or a year from now is hard to do. SF should give us more flexibility to turn off things we no longer need or use.
BTW: those tweaks I added to the site are going away, I was just feeling a bit ornery today. If I could have found my big happy AOL icons I would have used them instead. I'm sorry if SF confuses you, "Released Files" to me sounds like a place to download files. There should be no need for redundancy. Heck, there's even a cutesy little icon next to it for AOL users.
Thanks for taking the time to put me in a crappier, blacker mood than normal. I'm sure visiting my grandmother next week I'll be a ball of fun now.
Don't get me wrong, a suggestion is always welcome, I get many a day in email. Ganging up on me in a public forum is just wrong. My site will continue to be what *I* intend it to be. I will not entertain any more suggestions that are not addressed directly to me via email. I will not respond to any of these "suggestion" threads. If you don't like the site, don't use. I'm not forcing you to. Go make your own if you feel you know better than I, nothing's stopping you. I'll even give you space to host it.
Ed
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Suddenly, I'm transported to a gradeschool playground, where the kid with the ball says "if you don't like my rules, get your own ball".
Fine. None of this is for *my* benefit anyway. From the very beginning, I've tried to make my criticisms as constructive as possible. You claim that "a suggestion is always welcome", yet your pissy, self-pitying posts belie your words. Why should I use email when these are public suggestions about a public website, and could benefit from public comments by others?!
As for "ganging up" on you, I see only two other people who have contributed to the thread, one of whom seemed pretty neutral to my suggestions, while the other liked them. Both offered suggestions of their own, but dollars to donuts, both are probably shocked you think they're ganging up on you. If you want to be handled with kid-gloves, maybe *you* should go play on AOL.
I would've liked to continue this discussion about the suggestions I made, but it seems impossible to have such a discussion based solely on the merits of the proposals when you take everything so personally. If your attitude changes, let me know.
Tamer
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Tamer,
I was merely suggesting that if you don't like how it's being done to go do one that you think is worthy of your standards. Nothing juvenile about that.
Your criticisms bordered on adversarial, and appeared very antagonistic to me. You've been very abrasive during this whole thing. We've both approached this situation in a very bad way. I apologize for my actions.
This could have been a better situation. However, I interpretted your remarks at first not as constructive criticism, but as "Here's what's wrong with your site...fix it".
I prefer email for one very good reason, I can respond immediately as I monitor it constantly, unlike the forums which I tend to browse less frequently. A simple email of "Hey Ed, I've got some ideas on how to make the site better" would have gotten a much better response out of me.
As I said in my email to you, you offended me. I'm sure many would feel offended if their hard work for well over a year was berated by someone. I do take my work personally, as it's an extension of who I am.
Again, I apologize for my behavior, and before this turns into more bashing or flaming, I call a truce. If you want my attention in the future to any suggestions you have, please email me for a direct response. Also, please don't send files to me, I don't accept them from anyone.
Ed
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I assure you that it was never my intention to belittle your work, insult you, or demand anything. I honestly wanted to be constructive because I think this is a great project, and its developers (which includes you) are doing an admirable job. If the style of my opening post was too blunt or rude, then I in turn apologize. I really do mean well! I guess years of adversarial discussions on Usenet have made me that way; you can take a person out of Usenet, but you can't take Usenet out of a person ;-)
The email I sent was actually something of a peace offering. I gimped the site banner gif so that it says 'Modules' instead of 'Plug-ins'. It's not great (the original had a few 'layers', but the gif obviously doesn't which makes it hard to edit), so please don't feel obligated in any way to use it. Since you don't accept attachments, you can just get it from the following URL is you want:
Hello:
First, please take what I'm about to say in the spirit intended, namely constructive criticism. I'm very grateful to the phpWS and module developers for putting out such incredible software under the GPL.
Now for the mean stuff :-). The Module Forge website fails to serve the purpose it should serve. Let me illustrate using two examples:
1. I am Joe Newbie, I just installed phpWS and now I'm looking for cool new modules to add. I head on over to the ModForge, and the main paragraph, explaining the difference between Add-ins, Modules, and Plugins is very useful (explains the site banner ;-)). Cool. Take me to the Modules. Huh, the word "Modules" is not clickable. Let's check the main menu. Maybe 'Resources'? Nope, that's not it. Nothing in the FAQ either. Where is that "Download" link that *every* website offering something to download always has, displayed prominently somewhere near the top of the page?!
Three page scrolls down, at the bottom of a bunch of 'wierd' links, I finally find 'Released Files'. Bingo. Click. Huh. I wonder what each of these modules does. Some I can guess. Some, like FAQ and Search, seem to be repitions of stuff that came installed with 0.8.2. Others, like Gig List and Leads, mean nothing to me. Where are the descriptions? User opinions or ratings? Finally, are these the latest versions available? I had heard somewhere that Gallery is now in version 1.3 and I think I just read an announcement about a weather forecast module ...
2. I am Mike Hacker, and I've been messing around with phpWS and its modules for a while. I'd like to hang around with the user community, find out what's new, what works, what hacks people have improvised and what bugs people have reported/fixed. Where is this done? On the mailing lists? the 3 forums? the announcement/news section of ModForge? The module creators' own websites? What about the forums for the Core site? I'm pretty sure I saw discussions about modules there too.
Hopefully, you get the point. A *serious* amount of consolidation and streamlining needs to take place. The most *important* function for ModForge is as an information gateway: When a user goes to ModForge, they need a list of available modules and their descriptions. they need to know where to download any given module (where the author uploads the updates) and where to report bugs/suggestions for that module. They need to know where to seek help for a given module (it maybe the general help forum, or the author's own forum).
I realize I've written all this from a user, not a developer, perspective, but from what I'm seeing, developers don't really need the resources offered by ModForge, since many modules have their own homes on the web. Perhaps having a single developer forum where they can all exchange ideas would be useful, but that's about it, really. Mostly, they could just use ModForge as a central repository of basic *information* about their module for the users to follow: A single place to announce availability/updates.
Sorry for the extremely long post, but I hope it did offer some constructive ideas for moving phpWS forward.
Tamer
Modforge's best and intended purpose is to inform users of whats available. imho.
i go to modforge to look for modules i need. i expect to find a description and a link to the download (possible some more info in the mods developer's site). i check the forums if there are questions i can answer or if i have something to ask. if a have a question about a specific mod, i email the dev.
i think the forums @ modforge are very useful as a general module discussion area. it is also nice to know what people want/ need... but the area was so quiet for a long time that i think ppl have forgotten about it.. on the other hand i do believe that if users get answers they'll come back :)
Speaking of forums, I just realized that there's a forum called "Plug-ins" (to add insult to injury!) under the main phpWebSite forums, and it's active.
Add that to my list of gripes :-)
Well, I can't say I disagree with many items on your gripe list. Now, let's phrase it positively.
Let's ask for a forum which is only for announcements of current module releases. This would give developers a place announce the releases, and they can just include the same description of their module each time.
While it would be nice to have a central download site with good descriptions of all the modules currently available, I think that's beyond the scope of the SourceForge site. It would mean multiple download sources, more work for the (volunteer) webmeister, more opportunities for miscommunication and ruffled feathers. On the other hand, there's nothing against including links to the SourceForge files in the WebLinks module, is there? Developers could upload files to the forge, then submit a new link (including that nifty description.)
As for forums... the only way to increase traffic is to be generous with your wisdom and make the site worth tuning in to. If developers will help users with module issues, it will be a useful (and active) site for users. If developers help each other with programming questions, they'll build a useful forum for each other.
Which is why you've already gotten two answers to your comments.
Amgine
Positive is the way to go :-)
Here are some (explicit) suggestions:
1. Release announcements: Mod authors should be asked to submit an announcement/news item to the phpWS version of ModForge. The announcement should contain module name, version, brief description, links to demos and download, and indication of preferred forum for help/bugs/suggestions (this could be the SF system, or the author's own). This is almost exactly what CMS's are for: News announcements :-). People can post comments with thanks or additional info, but the primary item would be the announcement. This category should have a topic area devoted to it and should probably be the primary announcement category.
2. What's available: The info from the release annoucements (mod name, author, description, links for download, etc.) needs to be tabulated, kept current, and made prominently available to site visitors. This would be the section that would get the most traffic by people looking to download modules. I'm not sure what the best format for this is, but at a minimum, it could be a bunch of static HTML pages on the ModForge phpWS site. If module releases accelerate, some more automated system could be thought up (a new module?!).
3. Developer info: Probably a static page (or pages) on the phpWS ModForge site describing where information release announcements should be sent and what they should contain. Also, this section should have directions for using the SF system if the mod author doesn't want to host their own development platform. Recommendations about support forums (see below) should be made here.
That should be it for the phpWS ModForge.
4. Support: The best format for this is forums, and until phpWS gets its own kick-ass forum module, SourceForge is it! Some mod developers will want to host their own forums/support system, but the SF forums should be the default destination and developers should be encouraged to honor this. Given the current volume of traffic, one help forum is probably enough, with posters asked to include the module's name in a subject line tag when posting questions.
5. Suggestions/Ideas/Open Discussion: again SF forums. Bug tracking should be done using the SF tracker or through the developers own system (developer's choice).
6. Developer discussion: since I'm not a developer, I don't know what medium people would find convenient. Forums would be more accessible to non-developers (which could be good or bad), and mailing lists would be more private. I think there's a small enough number of module developers you guys could figure out what you prefer pretty easily.
That's it. Unless I missed something big, anything that's not mentioned above could be deleted/discontinued (streamlined :-)), including the plugin forum on the Core SF site. The Core phpWS could use Hub-it to display the release announcements from ModForge.
With the exception of the transition effort, what I outlined would not be harder to maintain than the current system, and would certainly be a whole lot easier for users.
Thanks for taking the time to read,
Tamer
The heck with just reading it, I printed it.
Good thoughts, it seems, one and all. I still think using WebLinks we could keep relatively current lists of What's available for end-users, but then I'm trying to put all the workload on the developers [grin /].
Any thoughts from you, Ed?
Amgine
Just a quick addition. It just occurred to me that it's worth taking a look at how the older, more established CMSs handle this process. For example, take a look at:
http://mods.postnuke.com/
which (to toot my own horn a little :-)) seems to look a lot like what I suggested above.
Okay, let me try to address you're "criticism".
1. I am Joe Webmaster, and I set up a project on SF to help developers get their modules put in one place and offer assistance to developers and users. I receive little to no help from developers, as most seem to be as flaky as a New England blizzard. I work my hardest on trying to get the word out there. I work closely with the core team to make sure both sites work well together. The more time I spend on the site, the less grateful the users seem to be, to the point of me saying "the hell with it" and closing shop. How's that for hypothetical?
Now, here is what happened when I had the downloads plugin (at the time I was still running .7.10). The plugin would auto generate an announcement when I approved a download. However, no one ever seemed to want to go back and update the URL if they changed the link so MANY of the the downloads were non existent. Every file had a description, blah blah blah.
Someone on the main site begins to get irritated about this and posts an article. I respond by moving the site to my OWN server and updating to .8.2. However, my old plugin doesn't work on this version and the module that does work is missing some of the features I had in the plugin. I don't feel like mucking around with that again, in addition to making sure the data in the database will work with the new module. In addition, there's the issue of all the broken submissions.
It was suggested that all downloads come from one place. Since SF has that facility already, I chose to use it. It is a bit more work for developers, but in the long run it is beneficial to the community at large. BTW, you CAN get descriptions of the files by simply clicking on the category header (ie Quotes) and should give you a view of the release notes. Actually READING the notes would let you know what the version is and if it's the latest, in addition to looking at the release date and again at the name of the file which usually indicates a version number.
Since I moved to this approach, I have had a number of the module aurhors sign up to the project and start uploading their modules. This I consider a success for the phpWS community as a whole.
I'm sorry if "Resources" didn't bring you to where you wanted to be, and there's no "Downloads" link, and you have to scroll a bit to see the "Release Files" link.
I'm also sorry that an explanation of what a module, plugin and addon did't provide you with that instant link to the downloads. Maybe if I put a download link in every block all over the site? Would that help?
As for user opinions or ratings, there were little to none when I used the downloads plugin, so I saw NO need to reintroduce it.
As for the forums, the modules/plugins forums under the core site were set up a long time ago when they first started phpWS. SF won't let you easily delete these forums once you make them. In essence you're stuck with them once you have them.
Consolidation isn't an option for the way this project is set up. The core team is working on phpWS for their purposes only (including whatever modules they produce). They are using it to run the intranet of Appalachian State University. They can only support what they are working on. I too was frustrated that they didn't seem to have a central place for mod developers and users, so I contacted them and they thought it'd be great to have a separate project and site for 3rd party module development.
Which is what the ModForge is. This is something NOT being supported (timewise, resourcewise) by the core team, but by me and a handful of developers connected with the project. I've worked with some of the project's senior people to make sure that what we have on the site is consistent, and we do plan on making both the core site and module site work better with each other (including posting news from each other's sites) . I am also working with them to remove any vestiges of "Plugins" but that is of low priority to them as they rush to complete the Falllout code.
I'm sorry if I've seemed to have failed to provide you with everything you so desire. I do have a life outside this project as well. I can spend my time on other pursuits and just close this thing down. I am working almost single handedly on this site. None of the other developers really tend to contribute more than their code on this, and that's a shame. I am not about to spend every waking moment making it so all you have to do is skim instead of read, nor am I going to populate the weblinks with links to the files you can get by clicking the released files link. Why? because developers don't and won't keep their weblink entry up to date.
Above all there were some small suggestions that may work and I'll try out, but above all, you don't know what's going on behind the scenes to make these kinds of judgements.
I'm tired of justifying things and explaining things. I'm going on vacation soon, and I may just shut the site down when I get back. You all definitely don't appreciate the time and effort and work that went into this project.
Ed
I'm tempted to up the ante here, but I won't. You're clearly feeling unappreciated, and that's a shitty feeling to have when you've put so much volunteer time and effort into a project, which you clearly have.
First, the small stuff. Thanks for the prominent 'Download' links; it's what most visitors to the site are looking for, so it might as well be highlighted. The 'module announcement' forum is a good addition (IMO, a module announcement 'topic' under site announcements would be more prominent, be under your direct control (no off-topic posts would be made), allow for user comments/ratings about the release, and be easy to retrieve (just click on the module announcement topic icon for a history of announcements. You could even put a link to that on the main menu ;-)). However, I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth, so the forum is fine :-)). As for consolidating forums, it's easy once you make the decision: Just post a message whose subject is "THIS FORUM IS NOW CLOSED - PLEASE READ" and whose body explains where the announcements/discussions are taking place.
Now the big stuff. My main point was that ModForge ought to be primarily an *information* repository, not a *software* repository. Rather than try to herd uncooperative developers into signing up for CVS access, uploading modules, and using SF resources, you'd ask them to do *one and only one* thing: Post a single announcement for every release, with basic info in a specific format, and a link to their site where it can be downloaded (it doesn't have to be a direct link, since those will likely change). I'll bet you won't have problems with "flaky" developers then!
Why fight the current? If developers want to use their own resources, let them! There's no real "benefit to the community at large" from a central file repository. If developers think their module is complex enough to deserve its own bug-tracking system and forums, then let them run their own bug-tracker and forums (some do!). As long as you (and by extension, visitors to ModForge) know *where* everything is, there's no problem.
Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. I sincerely hope you enjoy your vacation (it sounds like you need it, man!).
Tamer
The point is, and we've tried this already, we do let developers post whatever they want about new modules. We even gave them a download module (nothing more than a glorified links module tweaked for downloads) and it was used. However, down the road, the files get moved, websites get moved or canned, and guess what...the file is no longer available. It's of no use to anyone then.
Now I feel as if I'm being pulled in two directions at once, I have a group saying central repository good, and another saying bad. Personally I am in favor of the central repository and guess what...so are the majority of developers I have talked to and signed up to the project. So ya know what, I'm leaving as is. If you don't like, you are more than welcome to go start your own "information repository".
As for the forums, people will still post to it, even if I say it's closed, and then wonder why no one responds. Starting a project and anticipating its needs 6 months or a year from now is hard to do. SF should give us more flexibility to turn off things we no longer need or use.
BTW: those tweaks I added to the site are going away, I was just feeling a bit ornery today. If I could have found my big happy AOL icons I would have used them instead. I'm sorry if SF confuses you, "Released Files" to me sounds like a place to download files. There should be no need for redundancy. Heck, there's even a cutesy little icon next to it for AOL users.
Thanks for taking the time to put me in a crappier, blacker mood than normal. I'm sure visiting my grandmother next week I'll be a ball of fun now.
Don't get me wrong, a suggestion is always welcome, I get many a day in email. Ganging up on me in a public forum is just wrong. My site will continue to be what *I* intend it to be. I will not entertain any more suggestions that are not addressed directly to me via email. I will not respond to any of these "suggestion" threads. If you don't like the site, don't use. I'm not forcing you to. Go make your own if you feel you know better than I, nothing's stopping you. I'll even give you space to host it.
Ed
Suddenly, I'm transported to a gradeschool playground, where the kid with the ball says "if you don't like my rules, get your own ball".
Fine. None of this is for *my* benefit anyway. From the very beginning, I've tried to make my criticisms as constructive as possible. You claim that "a suggestion is always welcome", yet your pissy, self-pitying posts belie your words. Why should I use email when these are public suggestions about a public website, and could benefit from public comments by others?!
As for "ganging up" on you, I see only two other people who have contributed to the thread, one of whom seemed pretty neutral to my suggestions, while the other liked them. Both offered suggestions of their own, but dollars to donuts, both are probably shocked you think they're ganging up on you. If you want to be handled with kid-gloves, maybe *you* should go play on AOL.
I would've liked to continue this discussion about the suggestions I made, but it seems impossible to have such a discussion based solely on the merits of the proposals when you take everything so personally. If your attitude changes, let me know.
Tamer
Tamer,
I was merely suggesting that if you don't like how it's being done to go do one that you think is worthy of your standards. Nothing juvenile about that.
Your criticisms bordered on adversarial, and appeared very antagonistic to me. You've been very abrasive during this whole thing. We've both approached this situation in a very bad way. I apologize for my actions.
This could have been a better situation. However, I interpretted your remarks at first not as constructive criticism, but as "Here's what's wrong with your site...fix it".
I prefer email for one very good reason, I can respond immediately as I monitor it constantly, unlike the forums which I tend to browse less frequently. A simple email of "Hey Ed, I've got some ideas on how to make the site better" would have gotten a much better response out of me.
As I said in my email to you, you offended me. I'm sure many would feel offended if their hard work for well over a year was berated by someone. I do take my work personally, as it's an extension of who I am.
Again, I apologize for my behavior, and before this turns into more bashing or flaming, I call a truce. If you want my attention in the future to any suggestions you have, please email me for a direct response. Also, please don't send files to me, I don't accept them from anyone.
Ed
Hi Ed:
I assure you that it was never my intention to belittle your work, insult you, or demand anything. I honestly wanted to be constructive because I think this is a great project, and its developers (which includes you) are doing an admirable job. If the style of my opening post was too blunt or rude, then I in turn apologize. I really do mean well! I guess years of adversarial discussions on Usenet have made me that way; you can take a person out of Usenet, but you can't take Usenet out of a person ;-)
The email I sent was actually something of a peace offering. I gimped the site banner gif so that it says 'Modules' instead of 'Plug-ins'. It's not great (the original had a few 'layers', but the gif obviously doesn't which makes it hard to edit), so please don't feel obligated in any way to use it. Since you don't accept attachments, you can just get it from the following URL is you want:
http://tamerants.homedns.org/pub/
(I'm serving this from my home PC, so it might be down for short periods every once in a while)
I'm really glad this ended on a positive note! Thank you, and I hope you have a fun vacation!
Tamer