From: Jeroen C. <je...@li...> - 2004-04-03 12:19:43
Attachments:
phpwiki-removevirtualwrap.patch
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Hi, As also said in the acompanied comments, the use of "wrap=virtual" is invalid XHTML. Attached patch should remove all instances of "wrap=virtual" in current CVS. I may have made a mistake in some PHP files, so don't apply blindly :-) -- Jeroen Coumans (je...@li...) FAQ and Website Maintainer {faq,website}@linuxfromscratch.org www.jeroencoumans.nl |
From: Whit B. <wh...@tr...> - 2004-04-03 19:06:07
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On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 02:19:29PM +0200, Jeroen Coumans wrote: > As also said in the acompanied comments, the use of "wrap=virtual" is > invalid XHTML. Ah, but it's very useful HTML. Do you have an alternate way to tag for the same effect? Are you aware of any instance where it breaks anything under any browser, as compared to just being a useful added feature for the browsers that do grok it? Whit |
From: Jeroen C. <je...@li...> - 2004-04-04 11:14:42
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Whit Blauvelt said the following on 04/03/04 21:05: > On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 02:19:29PM +0200, Jeroen Coumans wrote: > > >>As also said in the acompanied comments, the use of "wrap=virtual" is >>invalid XHTML. > > > Ah, but it's very useful HTML. Do you have an alternate way to tag for the > same effect? Are you aware of any instance where it breaks anything under > any browser, as compared to just being a useful added feature for the > browsers that do grok it? It's actually a problem which requires a stylesheet-solution: textarea { overflow: auto; } (which is default) See http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20021028/125663.html for a discussion. As you know from reading the comments, the only reason wrap=virtual is used is for NN4, which defaults to wrap=off (thus causing long lines in textarea). All other browsers default to wrap=virtual. Fortunately, NN4 is allmost extinct now, which is why I question the continued support for it. -- Jeroen Coumans (je...@li...) FAQ and Website Maintainer {faq,website}@linuxfromscratch.org www.jeroencoumans.nl |
From: Reini U. <ru...@x-...> - 2004-04-05 07:56:14
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Jeroen Coumans schrieb: > Whit Blauvelt said the following on 04/03/04 21:05: >> On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 02:19:29PM +0200, Jeroen Coumans wrote: >>> As also said in the acompanied comments, the use of "wrap=virtual" is >>> invalid XHTML. >> >> Ah, but it's very useful HTML. Do you have an alternate way to tag for >> the same effect? Are you aware of any instance where it breaks anything under >> any browser, as compared to just being a useful added feature for the >> browsers that do grok it? > > It's actually a problem which requires a stylesheet-solution: > textarea { overflow: auto; } (which is default) > See http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20021028/125663.html for > a discussion. > > As you know from reading the comments, the only reason wrap=virtual is > used is for NN4, which defaults to wrap=off (thus causing long lines in > textarea). All other browsers default to wrap=virtual. Fortunately, NN4 > is allmost extinct now, which is why I question the continued support > for it. We could try to detect NN4 and emit wrap=virtual only for this user-agent. But then we'd have to turn off the valid XHTML iocon also. Would you like to work on this patch? -- Reini Urban http://xarch.tu-graz.ac.at/home/rurban/ |
From: Martin G. <gim...@gi...> - 2004-04-05 09:03:40
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Reini Urban <ru...@x-...> writes: > We could try to detect NN4 and emit wrap=virtual only for this > user-agent. But then we'd have to turn off the valid XHTML iocon > also. Would you like to work on this patch? Wouldn't it be better to move forward and make NN4 deprecated? Keeping the codebase clean is a greater goal than supporting old browsers, IMHO. And if I've understood things correctly, then people can still edit the pages just fine, they just have to fill the text themselves, something which I do already myself, so that the diffs are more meaningfull. (I think diffs on texts with lines of 300 characters are annoying when the only change is a single word in the middle of the huge line.) -- Martin Geisler My GnuPG Key: 0xF7F6B57B See http://gimpster.com/ and http://phpweather.net/ for: PHP Weather: Shows the current weather on your webpage and PHP Shell: A telnet-connection (almost :-) in a PHP page. |
From: Jeroen C. <je...@li...> - 2004-04-05 12:40:30
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Reini Urban said the following on 04/05/04 09:57: > Jeroen Coumans schrieb: > >>>> As also said in the acompanied comments, the use of "wrap=virtual" >>>> is invalid XHTML. > > We could try to detect NN4 and emit wrap=virtual only for this > user-agent. But then we'd have to turn off the valid XHTML iocon also. > Would you like to work on this patch? I have no interest in supporting a browser whose rendering engine is from 1997 and chokes on anything resembling valid CSS or HTML4. See <http://www.alistapart.com/articles/netscape/> for a good argument why everyone should drop support for NN4. Also, I suspect its userbase is less then 1% now (see eg. <http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.html>, <http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2004/March/browser.php> and <http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp>). All show a steady decline of old browsers, which means that the time to drop support for them is a safe choice since quite some time and it's actually mandatory now if you wish to move forward. I would like to move the templates and any injected XHTML to XHTML-1.0-strict conformance and to @import the stylesheets. This means that old browsers, such as NN4 and IE4, don't see any of the stylesheets and will thus still be able to see all content, and we can use all advanced features of XHTML and CSS in our templates, thus creating more compatible, accessible, usable and cooler sites based on PhpWiki. Thanks for listening, -- Jeroen Coumans (je...@li...) FAQ and Website Maintainer {faq,website}@linuxfromscratch.org www.jeroencoumans.nl |
From: Reini U. <ru...@x-...> - 2004-04-06 23:41:51
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Jeroen Coumans schrieb: > Reini Urban said the following on 04/05/04 09:57: >> Jeroen Coumans schrieb: >> >>>>> As also said in the acompanied comments, the use of "wrap=virtual" >>>>> is invalid XHTML. >> >> We could try to detect NN4 and emit wrap=virtual only for this >> user-agent. But then we'd have to turn off the valid XHTML icon also. >> Would you like to work on this patch? > > I have no interest in supporting a browser whose rendering engine is > from 1997 and chokes on anything resembling valid CSS or HTML4. See > <http://www.alistapart.com/articles/netscape/> for a good argument why > everyone should drop support for NN4. I refuse to do that. Argument: http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/ It's very easy to detect such an old browser and emit the necessary not xhtml-strict "wrap=virtual". > Also, I suspect its userbase is > less then 1% now (see eg. <http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.html>, > <http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2004/March/browser.php> and > <http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp>). All show a > steady decline of old browsers, which means that the time to drop > support for them is a safe choice since quite some time and it's > actually mandatory now if you wish to move forward. > > I would like to move the templates and any injected XHTML to > XHTML-1.0-strict conformance and to @import the stylesheets. This means > that old browsers, such as NN4 and IE4, don't see any of the stylesheets > and will thus still be able to see all content, and we can use all > advanced features of XHTML and CSS in our templates, thus creating more > compatible, accessible, usable and cooler sites based on PhpWiki. We already do that. Advanced features (for the latest browsers) are @import'ed, while older browsers still got some food to display. I haven't tested it with CSS support off lately, but it should look fine for the "Portland" theme, which is such an ancient theme. Testing other XHTML conformity, esp. in Templates was done some time ago, and will be done on a regular basis. but not now, and not by me probably. our internal php code (from core and plugins) is automatically xhtml conformant. I know of no single other app which can say that. -- Reini Urban http://xarch.tu-graz.ac.at/home/rurban/ |
From: Jeroen C. <je...@li...> - 2004-04-07 17:08:15
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Reini Urban said the following on 04/07/04 01:42: > Jeroen Coumans schrieb: > >> I have no interest in supporting a browser whose rendering engine is >> from 1997 and chokes on anything resembling valid CSS or HTML4. See >> <http://www.alistapart.com/articles/netscape/> for a good argument why >> everyone should drop support for NN4. > > I refuse to do that. Argument: http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/ > It's very easy to detect such an old browser and emit the necessary not > xhtml-strict "wrap=virtual". Well, it's unfortunately beyond my PHP-capabilities :-) (I'm still learning) > We already do that. Advanced features (for the latest browsers) are > @import'ed, while older browsers still got some food to display. I > haven't tested it with CSS support off lately, but it should look fine > for the "Portland" theme, which is such an ancient theme. > > Testing other XHTML conformity, esp. in Templates was done some time > ago, and will be done on a regular basis. but not now, and not by me > probably. our internal php code (from core and plugins) is automatically > xhtml conformant. I know of no single other app which can say that. I didn't mean to attack your current templates; they're pretty clean and validate to XHTML-transitional. Your work is very much appreciated! However, as they say, standing still is going back, and there are certainly other apps with better default templates, esp. recent versions of some advanced blog tools & CMS'es, like MovableType, Wordpress, Drupal and Plone. I'd like to make the PhpWiki templates: * more accessible (<http://www.accessify.com>, <http://diveintoaccessibility.org/>) * more usable (<http://usabilitygarage.com/>, <http://www.useit.com/> * more semantically correct (<http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/08/26/semantics_an/>, <http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2003/08/26/semantics.html> and mainly <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/>) Attaining these goals is IMHO worth the "drop" of NN4 & friends by giving it unstyled (but more usable) content through @import. It also would simplify the stylesheets & template code while being more useful & styleful for more modern browsers. -- Jeroen Coumans (je...@li...) FAQ and Website Maintainer {faq,website}@linuxfromscratch.org www.jeroencoumans.nl |
From: Dan F <dfr...@cs...> - 2004-04-07 18:12:53
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Jeroen Coumans wrote: > Reini Urban said the following on 04/07/04 01:42: > >> Jeroen Coumans schrieb: >> >>> I have no interest in supporting a browser whose rendering engine is >>> from 1997 and chokes on anything resembling valid CSS or HTML4. See >>> <http://www.alistapart.com/articles/netscape/> for a good argument >>> why everyone should drop support for NN4. >> >> >> I refuse to do that. Argument: http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/ >> It's very easy to detect such an old browser and emit the necessary >> not xhtml-strict "wrap=virtual". > > > Well, it's unfortunately beyond my PHP-capabilities :-) (I'm still > learning) > >> We already do that. Advanced features (for the latest browsers) are >> @import'ed, while older browsers still got some food to display. I >> haven't tested it with CSS support off lately, but it should look >> fine for the "Portland" theme, which is such an ancient theme. >> >> Testing other XHTML conformity, esp. in Templates was done some time >> ago, and will be done on a regular basis. but not now, and not by me >> probably. our internal php code (from core and plugins) is >> automatically xhtml conformant. I know of no single other app which >> can say that. > > > I didn't mean to attack your current templates; they're pretty clean > and validate to XHTML-transitional. Your work is very much > appreciated! However, as they say, standing still is going back, and > there are certainly other apps with better default templates, esp. > recent versions of some advanced blog tools & CMS'es, like > MovableType, Wordpress, Drupal and Plone. > > I'd like to make the PhpWiki templates: > * more accessible (<http://www.accessify.com>, > <http://diveintoaccessibility.org/>) > * more usable (<http://usabilitygarage.com/>, <http://www.useit.com/> > * more semantically correct > (<http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/08/26/semantics_an/>, > <http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2003/08/26/semantics.html> and mainly > <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/>) > > Attaining these goals is IMHO worth the "drop" of NN4 & friends by > giving it unstyled (but more usable) content through @import. It also > would simplify the stylesheets & template code while being more useful > & styleful for more modern browsers. I can't speak much to HTML, XHTML, CSS, standards, etc. I'm not really a web developer. However, I have opinions anyway, of course. :-) 1. It is interesting that both the "anybrowser" and AListApart claim to want to remain true to Tim Berners-Lee's vision. anybrowser says anyone should be able to view the page, AListApart says developers should develop to W3C recommendations (a standards body). 2. In general, I would encourage less support of everything, more features. It is true Phpwiki is not the most feature-rich solution for any particular problem yet, and IMHO that should change so it can survive. For example, one of my (potential) Phpwiki users and/or developers much preferred the look of MediaWiki (Wikipedia), since it had different fonts, colors, images, boxes, etc., looked graphically better. On the other hand, if it is cheap to support NN4.x, why not? It looked to me like Reini was claiming it is cheap. 3. I wonder if the ratings widget Javascript I programmed (currently in the experimental RateIt plugin) is NN4.x compliant? Javascript was updated since then. 4. I hope Phpwiki can use Jeroen somehow, who seems to have some energy around this subject! Dan |
From: Reini U. <ru...@x-...> - 2004-04-07 21:26:48
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Dan F schrieb: > Jeroen Coumans wrote: >> Reini Urban said the following on 04/07/04 01:42: >>> Jeroen Coumans schrieb: >>>> I have no interest in supporting a browser whose rendering engine is >>>> from 1997 and chokes on anything resembling valid CSS or HTML4. See >>>> <http://www.alistapart.com/articles/netscape/> for a good argument >>>> why everyone should drop support for NN4. >>> >>> I refuse to do that. Argument: http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/ >>> It's very easy to detect such an old browser and emit the necessary >>> not xhtml-strict "wrap=virtual". >> >> Well, it's unfortunately beyond my PHP-capabilities :-) (I'm still >> learning) >> >>> We already do that. Advanced features (for the latest browsers) are >>> @import'ed, while older browsers still got some food to display. I >>> haven't tested it with CSS support off lately, but it should look >>> fine for the "Portland" theme, which is such an ancient theme. >>> >>> Testing other XHTML conformity, esp. in Templates was done some time >>> ago, and will be done on a regular basis. but not now, and not by me >>> probably. our internal php code (from core and plugins) is >>> automatically xhtml conformant. I know of no single other app which >>> can say that. >> >> >> I didn't mean to attack your current templates; they're pretty clean >> and validate to XHTML-transitional. Your work is very much >> appreciated! However, as they say, standing still is going back, and >> there are certainly other apps with better default templates, esp. >> recent versions of some advanced blog tools & CMS'es, like >> MovableType, Wordpress, Drupal and Plone. >> >> I'd like to make the PhpWiki templates: >> * more accessible (<http://www.accessify.com>, >> <http://diveintoaccessibility.org/>) >> * more usable (<http://usabilitygarage.com/>, <http://www.useit.com/> >> * more semantically correct >> (<http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/08/26/semantics_an/>, >> <http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2003/08/26/semantics.html> and mainly >> <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/>) >> >> Attaining these goals is IMHO worth the "drop" of NN4 & friends by >> giving it unstyled (but more usable) content through @import. It also >> would simplify the stylesheets & template code while being more useful >> & styleful for more modern browsers. Ok, so we are together. What I really want is a minor graphical overhaul to have more consistent layouts. Like Carsten's great MacOSX theme. * default has to get less colors (WikiBlog, WhoIsOnline, ...) and more consistent font-sizes. * Sidebar is now much more enhancement-friendly, to drop any box into the left pane. Just the fonts, colors, and some Calendar tricks are missing. * RateIt is a good sample theme for theme-specific prefs and pagelist extensions. Even if we have no working recommender engine yet, and the buddie extensions are not in yet. Rating alone is useful per se. * And one or two more themes which look like nuke, crao or tikiwiki. > I can't speak much to HTML, XHTML, CSS, standards, etc. I'm not really a > web developer. However, I have opinions anyway, of course. :-) > > 1. It is interesting that both the "anybrowser" and AListApart claim to > want to remain true to Tim Berners-Lee's vision. anybrowser says anyone > should be able to view the page, AListApart says developers should > develop to W3C recommendations (a standards body). Sure, there's always a contradiction between reality and wishful thinking ("standards"). > 2. In general, I would encourage less support of everything, more > features. It is true Phpwiki is not the most feature-rich solution for > any particular problem yet, and IMHO that should change so it can > survive. For example, one of my (potential) Phpwiki users and/or > developers much preferred the look of MediaWiki (Wikipedia), since it > had different fonts, colors, images, boxes, etc., looked graphically > better. On the other hand, if it is cheap to support NN4.x, why not? It > looked to me like Reini was claiming it is cheap. Of course we want to catch up with mediawiki's features. In core we are much cleaner and advanced, but for the gui and features we are behind. > 3. I wonder if the ratings widget Javascript I programmed (currently in > the experimental RateIt plugin) is NN4.x compliant? Javascript was > updated since then. I'll have a look. For IE5.5 compliance we should handle transparent png's differently. There are some tricks in Javascript, but I wonder if we will use such large transparant PNG's. The RateIt smilies for now only. > 4. I hope Phpwiki can use Jeroen somehow, who seems to have some energy > around this subject! And esp. since he runs a very important wiki, http://wiki.linuxfromscratch.org -- Reini Urban http://xarch.tu-graz.ac.at/home/rurban/ |
From: Jeroen C. <je...@li...> - 2004-04-07 22:10:14
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Reini Urban said the following on 04/07/04 23:27: > Dan F schrieb: > > What I really want is a minor graphical overhaul to have more consistent > layouts. Like Carsten's great MacOSX theme. > > * default has to get less colors (WikiBlog, WhoIsOnline, ...) > and more consistent font-sizes. > > * Sidebar is now much more enhancement-friendly, to drop any box into > the left pane. Just the fonts, colors, and some Calendar tricks are > missing. > > * RateIt is a good sample theme for theme-specific prefs and pagelist > extensions. Even if we have no working recommender engine yet, and the > buddie extensions are not in yet. Rating alone is useful per se. > > * And one or two more themes which look like nuke, crao or tikiwiki. Those sound like good goals; the default theme is definitely not attractive, despite it's great backward-compatibility ;-) I'll submit patches for my work (although my time is extremely limited) and you can feel free to apply them or not. >> 1. It is interesting that both the "anybrowser" and AListApart claim >> to want to remain true to Tim Berners-Lee's vision. anybrowser says >> anyone should be able to view the page, AListApart says developers >> should develop to W3C recommendations (a standards body). > > Sure, there's always a contradiction between reality and wishful > thinking ("standards"). IMHO both articles don't contradict eachother. Both are against the coding for specific browsers and recommend coding for independent standards. And with the current offerings in browsers (IE6, Mozilla & friends, Opera, Safari), there are really cool things possible with standards today: http://www.csszengarden.com/ All in all, it's far from wishful thinking. >> better. On the other hand, if it is cheap to support NN4.x, why not? >> It looked to me like Reini was claiming it is cheap. Supporting it is more expensive then it seems. As webdeveloper, I aim to support the following browsers: IE5-6, Opera7+, Safari-1.0+, Mozilla-1.0+. Anything which is below those versions has bad support for even CSS1, a standard since 1998. Adding NN4 to the mix means checking against another browser with many obscure, crashing & disfiguring bugs, deciding what style to apply to it and what not while still keeping the style similar across all browsers. While it may be simple to keep or drop something like "wrap=virtual", it costs a lot of debugging hours to add one simple stylerule (as can be evidenced in the CSS comments, eg. where the author tried to use floating for the logo). All in all, combined with my earlier arguments for its small userbase and outdated engine, enough reason for me to say that it is too expensive to support and to take the easy way out by making all stylesheets use @import by default. > For IE5.5 compliance we should handle transparent png's differently. > There are some tricks in Javascript, but I wonder if we will use such > large transparant PNG's. The RateIt smilies for now only. There's a cool CSS behavior which can be applied to IE via conditional comments, if you absolutely insist on giving IE transparent PNG's. I'd rather use a solution like <http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=057%2F057%2Ecss>. (please take a look with Mozilla/Opera/Safari and compare it with Internet Explorer) Such a design is greatly degradable for old browsers while offering really cool features for advanced browsers. >> 4. I hope Phpwiki can use Jeroen somehow, who seems to have some >> energy around this subject! > > And esp. since he runs a very important wiki, > http://wiki.linuxfromscratch.org Heh, it's not that important and I'm still trying to convince the LFS community to make more use of it, but thanks for the kind words :-) My interests for the LFS community in PhpWiki are basically centered around good user authentication, ACL's & page ownership. And it's of course nice to see a vibrant community behind PhpWiki, which means that feature requests & patches won't go to waste :-) -- Jeroen Coumans (je...@li...) FAQ and Website Maintainer {faq,website}@linuxfromscratch.org www.jeroencoumans.nl |
From: <la...@us...> - 2004-04-08 12:57:25
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Jeroen Coumans [Thu, 08 Apr 2004 00:09:53 +0200] wrote: > > All in all, combined with my earlier arguments for its small userbase > and outdated engine, enough reason for me to say that it is too > expensive to support and to take the easy way out by making all > stylesheets use @import by default. > Should there be any vote about going this way, I would vote for it. My 2 Euro-cents advice (as a former web-coder too: KISS) A+O. |
From: Dan F. <dfr...@cs...> - 2004-04-08 15:00:38
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By the way, I think once the RateIt plugin is working, it would be fun to put it up at phpwiki.sourceforge.net/phpwiki, and allow people to rate features (or ideas or whatever), to get a read on what people think. For wikilens.org, we are working on apps to show this sort of information. See, for example, http://www.wikilens.org/index.php/SodaApp. Dan la...@us... wrote: >Jeroen Coumans [Thu, 08 Apr 2004 00:09:53 +0200] wrote: > > >>All in all, combined with my earlier arguments for its small userbase >>and outdated engine, enough reason for me to say that it is too >>expensive to support and to take the easy way out by making all >>stylesheets use @import by default. >> >> >> > >Should there be any vote about going this way, I would vote for it. > >My 2 Euro-cents advice (as a former web-coder too: KISS) > >A+O. > > > >------------------------------------------------------- >This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials >Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of >GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system >administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click >_______________________________________________ >Phpwiki-talk mailing list >Php...@li... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/phpwiki-talk > > |
From: Arnaud F. <ar...@cr...> - 2004-04-08 07:12:28
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Le mer 07/04/2004 =E0 23:27, Reini Urban a =E9crit : > * And one or two more themes which look like nuke, crao or tikiwiki. We wrote the Crao theme for the 1.3.4 version using MacOsX theme as a base. We are rewriting it for 1.3.7 and up with default as a base. I still have to track all the "french only" stuff ... But it's almost done ! As usual, it will be ready ... as soon as it is ready ;) > Of course we want to catch up with mediawiki's features. > In core we are much cleaner and advanced, but for the gui and features=20 > we are behind. Did you watch at communitywiki features ? like the auto sign with portrait, sister pages, multi wiki recent changes ? BTW, did you have a look at my RssFeed plugin (the code is on Crao) and my jabber "telepresence" plugin (trivial plugin using the jabber bot edgar) ?=20 --=20 Arnaud Fontaine Jabber: sh...@ra... ICQ: 3504789 |