phpwiki-talk

[Phpwiki-talk] xhtml-compliant wiki

[Tara S. <te...@cl...>]

As far as I see, my wiki now produces xhtml-compliant code.

http://climbtothestars.org/newwiki/ (there is a validation link on each=20
page, tell me if you find invalid pages)

I changed:

css: http://climbtothestars.org/newwiki/wiki.css
templates: http://climbtothestars.org/newwiki/templates/
transform.php: http://climbtothestars.org/newwiki/lib/transform.phps
stdlib.php: http://climbtothestars.org/newwiki/lib/stdlib.phps

Feel free to peek and use. I've really hacked it nastily, so don't=20
expect it to be elegant. I've tried to comment the places I changed.

Tara
--=20
Je r=E9ponds au mieux de mes connaissances
Climb to the Stars! - http://climbtothestars.org/
no tables: http://climbtothestars.org/coding/tableless/
Pompeurs Associ=E9s - http://pompage.net/

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] xhtml-compliant wiki

[Jeff D. <da...@da...>]

On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 13:22:15 +0100
"Tara Star" <te...@cl...> wrote:

> As far as I see, my wiki now produces xhtml-compliant code.

Cool!  When I have time (probably Wednesday) I'll look at your changes
and try to merge them into the main code.

If you could mail me a copy of all the files you've changed,
(including lib/WikiDB/backend/DBA.php, too)  it would help a lot.

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] xhtml-compliant wiki

[Tara S. <te...@cl...>]

Jeff Dairiki wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 13:22:15 +0100
> "Tara Star" <te...@cl...> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>As far as I see, my wiki now produces xhtml-compliant code.
>>
>=20
> Cool!  When I have time (probably Wednesday) I'll look at your changes
> and try to merge them into the main code.
>=20
> If you could mail me a copy of all the files you've changed,
> (including lib/WikiDB/backend/DBA.php, too)  it would help a lot.


Actually, I haven't changed DBA.php - were you thinking of PearDB.php?

I don't think I've changed any pages other than the ones I mentioned in=20
my last mail (if I did, it must have been small changes like replace=20
<hr> with <hr />... I have a vague recollection of doing that in another=20
file, but I can't for the life of me remember which one it could have bee=
n).

Should I really mail them or can you retrieve them yourself with the=20
links I gave in the last mail? (asking because I have no local copy of=20
them, so I'll have to download-save-rename-email). Don't mind doing it=20
though.

I re-did the templates and css almost from scratch, so I'm not sure how=20
useful they'll be to you.

Tara aka Steph




--=20
Je r=E9ponds au mieux de mes connaissances
Climb to the Stars! - http://climbtothestars.org/
no tables: http://climbtothestars.org/coding/tableless/
Pompeurs Associ=E9s - http://pompage.net/

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] xhtml-compliant wiki

[Jeff D. <da...@da...>]

On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:52:44 +0100
"Tara Star" <te...@cl...> wrote:


> Actually, I haven't changed DBA.php - were you thinking of PearDB.php?

Yes, that is what I meant.  (Think-o on my part.)
 
> Should I really mail them or can you retrieve them yourself with the 
> links I gave in the last mail? (asking because I have no local copy of 
> them, so I'll have to download-save-rename-email). Don't mind doing it 
> though.

It's not a big deal, so don't go to great lengths.

> I re-did the templates and css almost from scratch, so I'm not sure how 
> useful they'll be to you.

Were there changes in the CSS related to xhtml compliance?

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] xhtml-compliant wiki

[Tara S. <te...@cl...>]

Jeff Dairiki wrote:


> Were there changes in the CSS related to xhtml compliance?


well, let's put it like this. I don't support 4.x browsers, so I hide my=20
stylesheet using the so-called @import hack.

the stylesheets which came with the script seemed pretty complex and had=20
lots of useless classes for me, so it was simpler to re-write from=20
scratch. Plus, I simplified the html templates too (I try to avoid using=20
tables for layout, so I look for alternate solutions).

so let's say it would be possible to use templates similar to the=20
existing ones with xhtml-compliant code, but they are uselessly heavy imh=
o.

I guess it wouldn't take too long, based on the html templates I have,=20
to write a css sheet to give the wiki a look similar to the actual 1.3.1=20
  one (give or take a few details).

not sure if I answered your question though. The main reason I redid the=20
css is that I take a "minimalistic" approach towards html and css.

er... not sure that answered either

*goes back to migrating wiki pages*

Tara




--=20
Je r=E9ponds au mieux de mes connaissances
Climb to the Stars! - http://climbtothestars.org/
no tables: http://climbtothestars.org/coding/tableless/
Pompeurs Associ=E9s - http://pompage.net/

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] xhtml-compliant wiki

[Jeff D. <da...@da...>]

On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 17:34:11 +0100
"Tara Star" <te...@cl...> wrote:

> the stylesheets which came with the script seemed pretty complex and had

> lots of useless classes for me, n
... 
> so let's say it would be possible to use templates similar to the 
> existing ones with xhtml-compliant code, but they are uselessly heavy
imho.
> 
> I guess it wouldn't take too long, based on the html templates I have, 
> to write a css sheet to give the wiki a look similar to the actual 1.3.1

>   one (give or take a few details).

I'm a programmer, not a designer, Jim!

I would just like to take this opportunity to say: I will in no way be
insulted if y'all decide to change the default look/layout of 1.3.x.  

(I like your SpiroLattic layout very much.  Though, personally, I
think it's too early to drop support for 4.0 browsers, I suppose I could
be convinced otherwise.)

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] xhtml-compliant wiki

[Adam S. <ad...@pe...>]

> (I like your SpiroLattic layout very much.  Though, personally, I
> think it's too early to drop support for 4.0 browsers, I suppose I
> could be convinced otherwise.)

i think shipping in a form which doesn't support 4.0 browsers is okay so
long as there's a fairly trivial option to revert back to something saner
for people who need support for older clients.

at somepoint we have to ditch 4.0 clients and focus effort on doing the
right thing in the future and i think we're pretty close to that point.  i
was the last person i knew that used netscape 4.77 on a regular basis and
i swapped over to mozilla/galeon a few months ago and have been very
happy.

adam.

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] xhtml-compliant wiki

[Steve W. <sw...@pa...>]

On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Adam Shand wrote:

>
> > (I like your SpiroLattic layout very much.  Though, personally, I
> > think it's too early to drop support for 4.0 browsers, I suppose I
> > could be convinced otherwise.)
>
> i think shipping in a form which doesn't support 4.0 browsers is okay so
> long as there's a fairly trivial option to revert back to something saner
> for people who need support for older clients.
>
> at somepoint we have to ditch 4.0 clients and focus effort on doing the
> right thing in the future and i think we're pretty close to that point.  i
> was the last person i knew that used netscape 4.77 on a regular basis and
> i swapped over to mozilla/galeon a few months ago and have been very
> happy.

I've read that IE is as much as 80% of the browser traffic today. I think
this is really unfortunate.

I want PhpWiki to support Lynx, Emacs' w3 mode, and all browsers of all
versions. It's just text. I think it's more important to focus on features
like version control, XML dumps, and features like that... the layout
should be uncluttered and simple. A Wiki, any Wiki, is about ease of use
and writing hypertext.

Out of the box, PhpWiki should support all browsers. I think that xhtml
output won't pose much trouble: if you properly add spaces in tags like
<br />, the 4.x browsers don't care. (However, is that all 4.x browsers?)

So, out of the box: no Javascript, no fancy CSS. Please. We can pack in
all we want though, and make it easy to enable. By all means, stylesheets
and Javascript only supported in Mozilla would be most welcome by me! :-)

~swain


---
                  http://www.panix.com/~swain/
"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring
production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid."
                     -- Frank Zappa

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] xhtml-compliant wiki

[Tara S. <te...@cl...>]

Steve Wainstead wrote:


> I want PhpWiki to support Lynx, Emacs' w3 mode, and all browsers of all
> versions. It's just text. I think it's more important to focus on featu=
res
> like version control, XML dumps, and features like that... the layout
> should be uncluttered and simple. A Wiki, any Wiki, is about ease of us=
e
> and writing hypertext.


the "new" table-less approach is much more lynx-etc-friendly than the=20
"old" table-ridden layouts.


> Out of the box, PhpWiki should support all browsers. I think that xhtml
> output won't pose much trouble: if you properly add spaces in tags like
> <br />, the 4.x browsers don't care. (However, is that all 4.x browsers=
?)


it's not just <br />. It's also a question of closing tags, nesting=20
elements properly, and avoiding the use of what I call "presentational"=20
html.

old browsers shouldn't choke on <br />: the "/" is treated as an unknown=20
attribute and ignored (that happens because we leave a space; without a=20
space, some browsers may choke).


> So, out of the box: no Javascript, no fancy CSS. Please. We can pack in
> all we want though, and make it easy to enable. By all means, styleshee=
ts
> and Javascript only supported in Mozilla would be most welcome by me! :=
-)


the great idea of css is that it is frighteningly easy to edit. If you=20
give a css-only version of php-wiki, and I decide I want to use fancy=20
css that isn't supported by old browsers, it's very easy for me to=20
change it - so no problem with that.

The problem is when the (x)html itself isn't "100% clean" - see what I me=
an?

:)


Tara


--=20
Je r=E9ponds au mieux de mes connaissances
Climb to the Stars! - http://climbtothestars.org/
SpiroLattic - http://climbtothestars.org/spiro/
Pompeurs Associ=E9s - http://pompage.net/

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] xhtml-compliant wiki

[Adam S. <ad...@pe...>]

> So, out of the box: no Javascript, no fancy CSS. Please. We can pack
> in all we want though, and make it easy to enable. By all means,
> stylesheets and Javascript only supported in Mozilla would be most
> welcome by me! :-)

here's a nice mozilla/ie one :)

  <body ondblclick="location.href='/PageName?action=edit'">

it's actually pretty nice to be about to double click the background of
the page and have it open up in the editor.  and surprisingly i never did
it by mistake.  also none of the older browsers seemed to care.

i had it on my wiki for a week or so until i discovered that my hack broke
the ability to search and i haven't gotten around to fixing it.

adam.

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] xhtml-compliant wiki

[Tara S. <te...@cl...>]

Jeff Dairiki wrote:


> (I like your SpiroLattic layout very much.  Though, personally, I
> think it's too early to drop support for 4.0 browsers, I suppose I coul=
d
> be convinced otherwise.)


Thanks!

seen http://alistapart.com/stories/tohell/ ? (re-chewed in a way on my=20
http://climbtothestars.org/coding/tableless/)

dropping support for old browsers doesn't necessarily mean you have to=20
go "all the way", like suggested here (and like I do), and remove ALL=20
formatting for them.

The main point is to try to stop using presentational HTML to work=20
around broken browser limitations.

you can also serve poor NN4.x a very light stylesheet, so that it is not=20
too "plain HTML" - a few font colors, margins if it doesn't choke on=20
them, etc.

I don't do it, because I believe there is a point in encouraging people=20
to use the more standards-compliant browsers, and serving old browsers a=20
bland (but perfectly accessible, mind you!) layout can help move in that=20
direction.

MHO

:)

Tara




--=20
Je r=E9ponds au mieux de mes connaissances
Climb to the Stars! - http://climbtothestars.org/
SpiroLattic - http://climbtothestars.org/spiro/
Pompeurs Associ=E9s - http://pompage.net/