phpwiki-talk

[Phpwiki-talk] Older versions?

[Christian R. R. <ki...@as...>]

(Seen today's thread here)

Just let me get this properly: we only store two versions of each page,
and writing from the same host (taking into account time interval?) is
considered to be a change that replaces the current version? My personal
experience with phpwiki indicated it's true (which means I need to start
backing stuff up today :-) but I was under the impression we had levels of
undo like we have in swiki.

I'm using flat-file storage here, if it makes a difference.

Take care,
--
/\/\ Christian Reis, Senior Engineer, Async Open Source, Brazil
~\/~ http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 274 4311

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Older versions?

[Adam S. <la...@sp...>]

> Just let me get this properly: we only store two versions of each
> page, and writing from the same host (taking into account time
> interval?) is considered to be a change that replaces the current
> version? My personal experience with phpwiki indicated it's true
> (which means I need to start backing stuff up today :-) but I was
> under the impression we had levels of undo like we have in swiki.

the archiving scheme i'd like to see used is the one described here:

	http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?KeptPage

basically old versions are kept for a fixed amount of time rather then a
fixed number of copies.  the main advantage of this is that if a malicious
user comes in and starts trashing a page (or pages) you always have X
amount of time to recover old data.  i'd think that a month would be
reasonable though it would probably need to be tuned for high volume
sites.

sorry if this has alrady been discussed.

adam.

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Re: Install Question

[Jeff D. <da...@ma...>]

>i *think* the two are equivelent to apache, so it
>should just be a matter of patching phpwiki to understand the encoded
>version of "?" as a legit delimiter.


The escaping hides the special meaning of '?' as a separator
between the resource name ('index.php') and the query args ('NomicFaq').
So, the escaped version causes apache to look for a file called
'index.php?NomicFaq', which of course doesn't exist.

-----
Here's another solution: replace your old html by a CGI script which
issues the HTTP redirect.  Here's one way:

1. Edit FAQ.html, so that it contains one line:

<?php header("Location: /~nomicwiki/index.php?NomicFaq"); ?>

(You need to include 'http://www.nomic.net' only if you're redirecting
to a different HTTP server.)

2. Now you need to convince apache that FAQ.html is really a PHP script.
One way (assuming apache is configured to allow it) is to place the
following three lines in the '.htaccess' file in the same directory
as 'FAQ.html':

<Files FAQ.html>
 SetHandler application/x-httpd-php
</Files>

(If you're running PHP3, you might have to change to middle line to:
'SetHandler application/x-httpd-php3'.)

I thought initially, this would have the same problem as your
RedirectMatch solution (I thought apache would escape the '?' before
sending it out) --- but I've just tried it, and it works, at least on
my system.  


Jeff

PS.  If you wanted to get fancy, or if you had a lot of files that have
moved, I think you can do basically the same thing by writing a "404
error handler" script. You use something like:

 ErrorDocument 404 /error404.php

either in httpd.conf or .htaccess to get your script ('error404.php') run
whenever someone requests a non-existent file.

The requested URL is available to the script in the variable $REDIRECT_URL.
The script can then figure out the new URL (either systematically, or by
lookup table) and issue the redirect.  Or if no suitable redirect is found,
it can produce an error message.

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Older versions?

[J C L. <cl...@ka...>]

On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 20:48:24 -0700 (PDT) 
Adam Shand <la...@sp...> wrote:

> the archiving scheme i'd like to see used is the one described
> here:

Given the plumetting cost/MB I'd be more interested in implementing
a hierarchial storage system where sufficiently old and non-current
versions of content is moved to a secondary backing store, away from
the primary copy, yet still accessible.

Heck, 20Gig of RW SCSI II is less than $200 no, even less if you're
silly enough to go with IDE on a server.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       cl...@ka...
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Older versions?

[Adam S. <la...@sp...>]

> Given the plumetting cost/MB I'd be more interested in implementing a
> hierarchial storage system where sufficiently old and non-current
> versions of content is moved to a secondary backing store, away from
> the primary copy, yet still accessible.

there are some interesting thoughts on the subject here:

	http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?ForgiveAndForget

> Heck, 20Gig of RW SCSI II is less than $200 no, even less if you're
> silly enough to go with IDE on a server.

ack!  a scsi bigot! :)

adam.

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Older versions?

[J C L. <cl...@ka...>]

On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 09:36:31 -0700 (PDT) 
Adam Shand <la...@sp...> wrote:

>> Given the plumetting cost/MB I'd be more interested in
>> implementing a hierarchial storage system where sufficiently old
>> and non-current versions of content is moved to a secondary
>> backing store, away from the primary copy, yet still accessible.

> there are some interesting thoughts on the subject here:

> 	http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?ForgiveAndForget

I tend to the view that forgiveness is a human construct and is
therefore for humans, not machines, or if you wish, the dialectic
opposite of SunirShah's parting comment.  I prefer humans to
discriminate based on the full set of available data, not a partial
set formed by an arbitrary and unexaminable (due to be unrecorded)
editing of the data set.  The problem then is data mining and
establishing and maintaining ValuedInterpretations -- the things
humans are actually good at.

And yes, I'd be a fan of WayBackMode (added to list of things to
implement here along with per user PageTagging).

>> Heck, 20Gig of RW SCSI II is less than $200 no, even less if
>> you're silly enough to go with IDE on a server.

> ack!  a scsi bigot! :)

It works.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       cl...@ka...
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Older versions?

[Adam S. <la...@sp...>]

> I tend to the view that forgiveness is a human construct and is
> therefore for humans, not machines, or if you wish, the dialectic
> opposite of SunirShah's parting comment.

i mostly agree with you.  what i think is interesting is the attempt to
make a collaborative environment (in this case a wiki) match a human
social environment.  groups of humans usually forgive and forget over time
(barring major transgressions), i think the idea of making a computer
forgive and forget is potentially interesting.

> And yes, I'd be a fan of WayBackMode (added to list of things to
> implement here along with per user PageTagging).

this would certainly be preferable for more technical or work oriented
wiki's.  i'm not sure it would be of community based wiki's.

however until someone implements it we'll never know :)

adam.

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Older versions?

[J C L. <cl...@ka...>]

On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:39:39 -0700 (PDT) 
Adam Shand <la...@sp...> wrote:

>> I tend to the view that forgiveness is a human construct and is
>> therefore for humans, not machines, or if you wish, the dialectic
>> opposite of SunirShah's parting comment.

> i mostly agree with you.  what i think is interesting is the
> attempt to make a collaborative environment (in this case a wiki)
> match a human social environment.  groups of humans usually
> forgive and forget over time (barring major transgressions), i
> think the idea of making a computer forgive and forget is
> potentially interesting.

Its interesting but I think also an intellectual tar baby.  As soon
as you go down that road you are codifying personal human
evaluations, which means that they are no longer personal but are
now shared cultural expectations which are enforced on the
individual beyond his real ability to counter.

Aiiiie.

>> And yes, I'd be a fan of WayBackMode (added to list of things to
>> implement here along with per user PageTagging).

> this would certainly be preferable for more technical or work
> oriented wiki's.  i'm not sure it would be of community based
> wiki's.

Aye, I'm not a great fan of SociaWikis, mostly because I don't think
they work very well for that purpose (I'm an email guy).  For
collaborative documentation and development of a KnowledgeNase Wikis
work exceptionally well.  What I'm trying to do here is to marry a
Wiki, mailing list archives and a K5-ish weblog.  Early screenshot:

  http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/wikitest.png

Oh yeah the comments are individual WikiItems as well (I've got
HeirarchialWikiItems ala WikiItem/SubItem/SubItem with individual
items able to appear in multiple places in the tree (abstract
views), as well as the ability for a Item to embed/nest the contents
of another WikiItem inside itself at display time (think quotes)).

> however until someone implements it we'll never know :)

There is that.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       cl...@ka...
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Older versions?

[Adam S. <la...@sp...>]

> Aye, I'm not a great fan of SociaWikis, mostly because I don't think
> they work very well for that purpose (I'm an email guy).  For
> collaborative documentation and development of a KnowledgeNase Wikis
> work exceptionally well.  What I'm trying to do here is to marry a
> Wiki, mailing list archives and a K5-ish weblog.  Early screenshot:

GOD YES!  i'm an email guy as well and have been thinking about this for a
long time.  i'm not much of a coder but i've been a unix admin since '93
so i'm fairly clued. :) if you want another set of eyes and someone to
install it and give feedback i'd *LOVE* to help with this.

i assume you're writing it in php?  are you using a database back end?

> Oh yeah the comments are individual WikiItems as well (I've got
> HeirarchialWikiItems ala WikiItem/SubItem/SubItem with individual
> items able to appear in multiple places in the tree (abstract views),
> as well as the ability for a Item to embed/nest the contents of
> another WikiItem inside itself at display time (think quotes)).

this is almost exactly what i was thinking as well.  the more i thought
about it the more i decided that it really all the important tech was
there and it was largely a ui design issue.  how do you merge these
different forms of content management together for maximum results.

i'd love to see what you've done.

adam.

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Older versions?

[J C L. <cl...@ka...>]

On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:58:56 -0700 (PDT) 
Adam Shand <la...@sp...> wrote:

>> Aye, I'm not a great fan of SociaWikis, mostly because I don't
>> think they work very well for that purpose (I'm an email guy).
>> For collaborative documentation and development of a
>> KnowledgeNase Wikis work exceptionally well.  What I'm trying to
>> do here is to marry a Wiki, mailing list archives and a K5-ish
>> weblog.  Early screenshot:

...

> if you want another set of eyes and someone to install it and give
> feedback i'd *LOVE* to help with this.

Work permitting I hope to get a beta out this month (currently work
does not look permitting).  My user base is crying for it.  There's
not a whole lot left to do really:

  -- Finish up the auth supports (based of SourceForge's) 
  -- Fix comment/reply threading (currently way too join happy)
  -- Finish implementing picon uploads
  -- Some DB minor normalising (need to norm the handling of
  WikiItems vs Comments/Replies).
  -- Bunch of small corner cases surrounding namespace management
  (side effects of the broken norming to be fixed above)
  -- Summary pages (tag lists, score lists, date lists, view pattern
  lists, graph tree models, etc).
  ... few other small things.

> i assume you're writing it in php?  

Yes.

> are you using a database back end?

PostgresQL.  Its currently very join happy which really needs to be
handled.  It slaughters the machine with decent hit rates (the
target box is spidered regularly and fairly heavily).

>> Oh yeah the comments are individual WikiItems as well (I've got
>> HeirarchialWikiItems ala WikiItem/SubItem/SubItem with individual
>> items able to appear in multiple places in the tree (abstract
>> views), as well as the ability for a Item to embed/nest the
>> contents of another WikiItem inside itself at display time (think
>> quotes)).

> this is almost exactly what i was thinking as well.  the more i
> thought about it the more i decided that it really all the
> important tech was there and it was largely a ui design issue.

<nod>

I don't think I have the UI down.  I know I'm not a HIL guy.  To an
extent I don't think the UI is as important as getting the access
mode and view flexibility in there first, especially given that I'm
basing off a technical (and therefore somewhat forgiving for the sake
of features) audience.

> i'd love to see what you've done.

Soon I hope.  

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       cl...@ka...
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows