phpwiki-talk

[Phpwiki-talk] 3-single quotes and 5-single quotes broken?

[Carsten K. <car...@ma...>]

Hi,

I just pulled down a fresh copy of 1.3 from cvs.

3-single-quotes (bold) and 5-single-quotes (bold-italic) seems completely 
broken now. Is this a known problem or is it just me?

See the bottom of TestPage, Markup Tests and Usage in preformatted text.

Carsten

[Phpwiki-talk] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Phpwiki-talk]_3-single_quotes_and_5-single_quotes_broken=3F?=

[Jeff D. <da...@da...>]

Carsten Klapp said:
>
> 3-single-quotes (bold) and 5-single-quotes (bold-italic) seems
> completely  broken now. Is this a known problem or is it just me?

I think that's been broken (or rather "never implemented") since Arno's new
transform code last winter/spring...

I don't suspect it would be hard to add.  Is there really a need?
(Leading-tab-delimited lists, I think, are also not currently working in
1.3.)

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Phpwiki-talk]_3-single_quotes_and_5-single_quotes_broken=3F?=

[Steve W. <sw...@pa...>]

I'd like to move (again) to a syntax like the NBTSC Wiki, which is in line
with suggestions by many users over the last two years. Ali went for
syntax that is a lot like how people do things in plain text elsewhere:

*bold*
/italic/

I think are two examples. Ali's reasoning was the marked up page language
should be as easy to read/understand as the rendered page.

Now, the one thing that has troubled me about both the plugin syntax and
the proposed plain text tags is they are not consistent with the markup to
date... and inconsistency is not good for the user. As PhpWiki grows in
features, though, I understand it gets harder to maintain consistency.

I'd like to see some proposals that are consistent with our current
syntax, or some way that would be compatible with NBTSC syntax.

~swain

On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, Jeff Dairiki wrote:

> Carsten Klapp said:
> >
> > 3-single-quotes (bold) and 5-single-quotes (bold-italic) seems
> > completely  broken now. Is this a known problem or is it just me?
>
> I think that's been broken (or rather "never implemented") since Arno's new
> transform code last winter/spring...
>
> I don't suspect it would be hard to add.  Is there really a need?
> (Leading-tab-delimited lists, I think, are also not currently working in
> 1.3.)
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Phpwiki-talk mailing list
> Php...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/phpwiki-talk
>

---
                  http://www.panix.com/~swain/
"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring
production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid."
                     -- Frank Zappa

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Re: [Phpwiki-talk] 3-single quotes and 5-single quotes broken?

[Lawrence A. <la...@us...>]

At 05:14 07/12/2001, Steve Wainstead wrote:

>I'd like to move (again) to a syntax like the NBTSC Wiki, which is in line
>with suggestions by many users over the last two years. Ali went for
>syntax that is a lot like how people do things in plain text elsewhere:
>
>*bold*
>/italic/
>
>I think are two examples. Ali's reasoning was the marked up page language
>should be as easy to read/understand as the rendered page.


Yes, yes, yes.  People understand that.  I am often asked why *bold* 
doesn't work.  Another useful one from the email world is > as a prefix for 
a blockquote.

There are other motivations behind wiki markup - I have listed a few at

http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/PurposesOfWikiMarkup

There is also an excellent discussion (imho) of how wiki rules can go bad 
(and suggestions for making them good) at

http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?SillyTextFormattingRules



>Now, the one thing that has troubled me about both the plugin syntax and
>the proposed plain text tags is they are not consistent with the markup to
>date... and inconsistency is not good for the user. As PhpWiki grows in
>features, though, I understand it gets harder to maintain consistency.
>
>I'd like to see some proposals that are consistent with our current
>syntax, or some way that would be compatible with NBTSC syntax.


It is hard to think of a "natural" way of indicating that you want to 
include a block of text without markup (eg code).  Zope structured text ( 
http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Articles/STX ) uses a paragraph followed 
by :: to indicate that the next indented block should have no markup at 
all.  You can also use text ending in "example:" to indicate the same 
thing.  That's a bit fancy for me.  The :: (or something like it), followed 
by indented text, might be OK though.  You don't need a closing tag in that 
case.  You just stop indenting to return to normal.

Also, its hard to think of a single character (which is what NBTSC's markup 
mostly uses) which can sensibly be used to indicate a block of 
code.  Whatever is chosen may well appear in the code itself, and would 
have to be escaped, which defeats the object.

I would like to implement a solution to the code problem.  It is a big 
difficulty for my users, you need to quote php code a lot without having to 
scan for and double up on square brackets all the time.  Hence my patch 
(see other thread!).  Ideally, I would like to do something that can be 
adopted in PhpWiki as a whole, rather than just patch my 
implementation.  That way, my site remains consistent with phpWiki 
generally, and I don't have to keep patching my code on every cvs release!

Steve, how about implementing my patch (or something like it) in the short 
term, and we can then discuss (perhpas on the wiki itself) moving towards 
NBTSC markup in the medium term.  I am wholeheartedly behind that move, and 
would be delighted to help implement it.

Lawrence

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Re: [Phpwiki-talk] 3-single quotes and 5-single quotes broken?

[Jeb B. <je...@oc...>]

I had some ideas on supporting different patterns for wiki, based on
experience I had long ago creating something called the 'patterns
plugin' for a web authoring enviornment I don't use anymore...
http://ocha.net/plugins/patterns/

Anyway, the idea of that code was very similar to wiki, in that you
use simple shorthand markup to write html.  The main difference was
that users had the ability to create their own patterns, based on the
needs of their specific page or website.

I was thinking something similar could be done for wiki, to support
multiple "sets" of patterns, via a popup menu in the EditText page, or
individual patterns via checkboxes.  Of course, the drawback to this
type of flexability is the possibility that pages could be broken by a
change in pattern selection, for example.  There might also be ways to
work around that problem.  Anyway, just a thought I've been meaning to
share, and I might have time to work on in the future...

-jeb

On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 12:14:53AM -0500, Steve Wainstead wrote:
> 
> I'd like to move (again) to a syntax like the NBTSC Wiki, which is in line
> with suggestions by many users over the last two years. Ali went for
> syntax that is a lot like how people do things in plain text elsewhere:
> 
> *bold*
> /italic/
> 
> I think are two examples. Ali's reasoning was the marked up page language
> should be as easy to read/understand as the rendered page.
> 
> Now, the one thing that has troubled me about both the plugin syntax and
> the proposed plain text tags is they are not consistent with the markup to
> date... and inconsistency is not good for the user. As PhpWiki grows in
> features, though, I understand it gets harder to maintain consistency.
> 
> I'd like to see some proposals that are consistent with our current
> syntax, or some way that would be compatible with NBTSC syntax.
> 
> ~swain

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Re: [Phpwiki-talk] 3-single quotes and 5-single quotes broken?

[Steve W. <sw...@pa...>]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Jeb Bateman wrote:

> I had some ideas on supporting different patterns for wiki, based on
> experience I had long ago creating something called the 'patterns
> plugin' for a web authoring enviornment I don't use anymore...
> http://ocha.net/plugins/patterns/
>
> Anyway, the idea of that code was very similar to wiki, in that you
> use simple shorthand markup to write html.  The main difference was
> that users had the ability to create their own patterns, based on the
> needs of their specific page or website.
>
> I was thinking something similar could be done for wiki, to support
> multiple "sets" of patterns, via a popup menu in the EditText page, or
> individual patterns via checkboxes.  Of course, the drawback to this
> type of flexability is the possibility that pages could be broken by a
> change in pattern selection, for example.  There might also be ways to
> work around that problem.  Anyway, just a thought I've been meaning to
> share, and I might have time to work on in the future...
>

Hmm. I guess in an ideal world, the default markup the user sees is the
one we feel is easiest to understand; but in user options, they could
choose any markup scheme they like (those of other wikis, or limited html,
or roll their own.)

This would, again, require storing the page content in some intermediate
format, like xml, and converting to the user-chosen markup whenever they
decide to edit a page.

Just thinking out loud.

~swain


>
> On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 12:14:53AM -0500, Steve Wainstead wrote:
> >
> > I'd like to move (again) to a syntax like the NBTSC Wiki, which is in line
> > with suggestions by many users over the last two years. Ali went for
> > syntax that is a lot like how people do things in plain text elsewhere:
> >
> > *bold*
> > /italic/
> >
> > I think are two examples. Ali's reasoning was the marked up page language
> > should be as easy to read/understand as the rendered page.
> >
> > Now, the one thing that has troubled me about both the plugin syntax and
> > the proposed plain text tags is they are not consistent with the markup to
> > date... and inconsistency is not good for the user. As PhpWiki grows in
> > features, though, I understand it gets harder to maintain consistency.
> >
> > I'd like to see some proposals that are consistent with our current
> > syntax, or some way that would be compatible with NBTSC syntax.
> >
> > ~swain
>

---
                  http://www.panix.com/~swain/
"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring
production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid."
                     -- Frank Zappa

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Phpwiki-talk]_3-single_quotes_and_5-single_quotes_broken=3F?=

[Steve W. <sw...@pa...>]

It would help if I hit reply to the right emails... doh..

I don't care to see ''' added again. Arno left it out on purpose. Same
with tabs. They're history.

~swain

On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, Jeff Dairiki wrote:

> Carsten Klapp said:
> >
> > 3-single-quotes (bold) and 5-single-quotes (bold-italic) seems
> > completely  broken now. Is this a known problem or is it just me?
>
> I think that's been broken (or rather "never implemented") since Arno's new
> transform code last winter/spring...
>
> I don't suspect it would be hard to add.  Is there really a need?
> (Leading-tab-delimited lists, I think, are also not currently working in
> 1.3.)
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Phpwiki-talk mailing list
> Php...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/phpwiki-talk
>

---
                  http://www.panix.com/~swain/
"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring
production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid."
                     -- Frank Zappa