From: Steve W. <sw...@wc...> - 2000-06-30 16:46:20
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This didn't make the list so I'm forwarding it... sw ...............................ooo0000ooo................................. Hear FM quality freeform radio through the Internet: http://wcsb.org/ home page: www.wcsb.org/~swain ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:31:17 -0700 From: Jeff Dairiki <da...@da...> To: Steve Wainstead <sw...@wc...> Subject: Re: wiki_diff >Done... you should have write access to CVS now. Thank you Steve. (I've just checked in a few fixes to wiki_diff.php3.) >Arno and I have been developing by concensus, mostly. He will occasionally >add a whole new feature (like diff) when it has no impact on the existing >functionality, because he knows I get crabby about backwards compatibility >;-) I don't envision adding much without a lot of consultation. >We had a set of goals for 1.2, but along the way we've picked up >templates, the page info link, and now diffs. All great stuff. The >original goal was to develop a new DB schema (done) and implement it >(partly done) that would give use new pages like MostHeavilyEdited and >MostViewed and so forth. > >Also there are additions to the markup language; in particular I want to >get away from using tabs because they are so inconvenient to non-Unix >users ;-) > >I want to do a reassesment of where we are over the weekend and decide how >far away 1.2 is. It's not that far really. While your deciding, please consider these two changes/features which I'd really like to see in 1.2 (the details of which you've seen on http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3?PhpWikiBrainstorm): o Pagenames moved to PATH_INFO rather than in QUERY_ARGS. (Somewhat nitpicky, I admit.) This is a simple change, but is invasive (nearly every source file need to be touched.) o Version control. (I envision multiple backup copies, stored as diffs). This is admittedly a fairly big project, so it's understandable if you want to put it off until later. Given a thumbs-up, I'd be happy to work on either/both of these. (Though adding version history involves changes to the database schema, so coordination with Arno is an issue.) I'm going to be away from the computer (I hope) for the weekend, so don't expect to hear from me until Monday or Wednesday... Best Regards, Jeff |
From: Arno H. <aho...@in...> - 2000-06-30 17:54:09
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Jeff wrote: > o Pagenames moved to PATH_INFO rather than in QUERY_ARGS. > (Somewhat nitpicky, I admit.) This is a simple change, but is invasive > (nearly every source file need to be touched.) just to be sure I understand what you're talking about: instead of doing, e.g. http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3?PhpWikiBrainstorm you suggest: http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/PhpWikiBrainstorm How would edits/diffs/... handled? like this: http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/edit/PhpWikiBrainstorm or this: http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/PhpWikiBrainstorm/edit or this: http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/PhpWikiBrainstorm?edit (this makes sense to me) Actually, you only need to touch two files: index.php3 (preparing args) and wiki_stdlib.php3 (doing WikiLinks) - plus maybe the template files. It is a reasonable suggestion, but it means that phpwiki would no longer run "out of the box". This kind of setup requires changes to the web server's config. This is not possible everywhere. We could add it as option, though. I'm not sure that this is an urgent issue. The only difference might be for spiders scanning the web (e.g. search engines). Some of them ignore anything after "?" and would only index the main page and nothing else. Any other reason? /Arno |
From: Jeff D. <da...@da...> - 2000-06-30 18:21:42
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>Jeff wrote: > > o Pagenames moved to PATH_INFO rather than in QUERY_ARGS. > >just to be sure I understand what you're talking about: Yes, I think you've got the idea. >It is a reasonable suggestion, but it means that >phpwiki would no longer run "out of the box". This kind of setup >requires changes to the web server's config. This is not possible >everywhere. I envision URLs like http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3/PhpWikiBrainstorm http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3/PhpWikiBrainstorm?edit I think these will work anywhere without server reconfiguration. Getting http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/PhpWikiBrainstorm to work would be slick, but does take hacking on the server configuration. Easy enough for individual users to do if they want. >The only difference might be for spiders scanning the web (e.g. >search engines). Some of them ignore anything after "?" and would only >index the main page and nothing else. Yes. Which brings to mind another point: we should probably emit the Last-Modified: and Cache-Control: HTTP headers (and possibly check the If-Modified-Since: and If-None-Match: request headers). (i.e. for cache control purposes, browsed pages should appear to be static pages.) I once figured out the correct way to handle these (for http://www.dairiki.org/tides/) , and could probably sort it out again pretty quickly. >Any other reason? It makes more logical sense: the URL for each page looks like a URL for a page. URLs for operations on a page look like URLs for operations on a page. Also (I think) it would make it easy to create static 'snapshots' of a Wiki using a web mirroring tool like wget. Jeff |
From: Arno H. <aho...@in...> - 2000-06-30 19:09:02
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> I envision URLs like > > http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3/PhpWikiBrainstorm > http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3/PhpWikiBrainstorm?edit > > I think these will work anywhere without server reconfiguration. Interesting. I didn't know that these URLs work without server tweaking. Does this only work on Apache or on other servers as well? > Which brings to mind another point: we should probably emit > the Last-Modified: and Cache-Control: HTTP headers (and possibly check the > If-Modified-Since: and If-None-Match: request headers). Yes, I was thinking about this too. Cache-control headers are especially useful when editing pages. There's some good information about caching on: http://www.mnot.net/cache_docs/ and a nice tool at http://www.ircache.net/cgi-bin/cacheability.py > Also (I think) it would make it easy to create static 'snapshots' of a > Wiki using a web mirroring tool like wget. Do we really want to encourage mirroring through wget or other utils? (btw, wget is able to handle "?" stuff). I recall reading a page on c2.com, how spiders or mirror-attempts "brought down" c2.com, because they were also mirroring the results from the fulltext search on page titles. These searches are quite expensive and those dumb bots flooded c2.com with such requests. One of my most popular sites (http://gtl.jeudego.org/) is mirrored about two/three times a month. Usually this creates up to 3 requests per second - which effectively makes the site unusuable for an hour. /Arno |
From: Steve W. <sw...@wc...> - 2000-06-30 19:34:51
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On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Arno Hollosi wrote: > > I envision URLs like > > > > http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3/PhpWikiBrainstorm > > http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3/PhpWikiBrainstorm?edit > > > > I think these will work anywhere without server reconfiguration. > > Interesting. I didn't know that these URLs work without server tweaking. > Does this only work on Apache or on other servers as well? Yes, PATH_INFO is always populated by whatever follows the / after a CGI file. We'd find it in that array... what's it called... http_request_vars[] or something... or else in $PATH_INFO. > > Also (I think) it would make it easy to create static 'snapshots' of a > > Wiki using a web mirroring tool like wget. > > Do we really want to encourage mirroring through wget or other utils? > (btw, wget is able to handle "?" stuff). I think there might be some other, more Wiki-specific way of doing mirroring and file sharing. More on this some other time. If changing to PATH_INFO means a Wiki cannot be indexed by a search engine, I would question its worth. Arno, if I read the mails right, some spiders ignore everything after the ? in a URL. That would mean a PhpWiki cannot be indexed since everything after the index page has a question mark... therefore, switching to PATH_INFO would mean a Wiki could be indexed, and that would be a Good Thing since someone doing a search on "hammond organs" would find a lot of the pages in Jeff's Wiki. Sound correct? sw ...............................ooo0000ooo................................. Hear FM quality freeform radio through the Internet: http://wcsb.org/ home page: www.wcsb.org/~swain |
From: Arno H. <aho...@in...> - 2000-06-30 23:43:52
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> If changing to PATH_INFO means a Wiki cannot be indexed by a search > engine, I would question its worth. The other way around: using PATH_INFO allows URLs without "?" - and they can be indexed then. > Arno, if I read the mails right, some spiders ignore everything after the > ? in a URL. That would mean a PhpWiki cannot be indexed since everything > after the index page has a question mark... Correct. Search for WikiEssence on google, altavista, excite. No engine will list: http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEssence (another nice side-effect of those simple wiki pagenames: they form excellent search terms for search engines :o) And c2's wiki is not that unknown, is it? [just to prove me wrong I just saw that raging.com lists a hit with "?" when searching for recentvisitors] So, let's say: not all major search engines support "?" links, or if they do they don't rate such pages high. > therefore, switching to > PATH_INFO would mean a Wiki could be indexed, and that would be a Good > Thing since someone doing a search on "hammond organs" would find a lot of > the pages in Jeff's Wiki. Sound correct? Correct. So it seems to be a worthwile change. I suggest that we put it off, until we had a look at Ari's code and agreed on the impending refactoring of phpwiki. /Arno |