phpwiki-talk

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] path_info vs. query_args

[Arno H. <aho...@in...>]

 > If changing to PATH_INFO means a Wiki cannot be indexed by a search
 > engine, I would question its worth.  

The other way around: using PATH_INFO allows URLs without "?" - and
they can be indexed then.

 > Arno, if I read the mails right, some spiders ignore everything after the
 > ? in a URL. That would mean a PhpWiki cannot be indexed since everything
 > after the index page has a question mark...

Correct.
Search for WikiEssence on google, altavista, excite.
No engine will list: http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEssence
(another nice side-effect of those simple wiki pagenames: they form
excellent search terms for search engines :o)
And c2's wiki is not that unknown, is it?

[just to prove me wrong I just saw that raging.com lists a hit with
"?" when searching for recentvisitors]
So, let's say: not all major search engines support "?" links, or if
they do they don't rate such pages high.

 > therefore, switching to
 > PATH_INFO would mean a Wiki could be indexed, and that would be a Good
 > Thing since someone doing a search on "hammond organs" would find a lot of
 > the pages in Jeff's Wiki. Sound correct?

Correct.

So it seems to be a worthwile change. I suggest that we put it off,
until we had a look at Ari's code and agreed on the impending
refactoring of phpwiki.

/Arno

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Re: PhpWiki (fwd)

[Arno H. <aho...@in...>]

 > Ari runs the NBTS Wiki (http://www.nbtsc.org/wiki/); I emailed Ari today
 > ... it appears a tarball will be available to us soon.

 > In addition to that, I've
 > been hyper-modularizing things, so you can just comment out an include
 > file to turn on and off features;

That sounds *very* interesting.
I guess we should adopt a similar structure for our distribution.

I don't know which naming convention Ari uses for the files, and if
it would be better to turn on/off those features in wiki_config, but
I definitely look forward to getting my hands on his code.

At some point I was worrying we might pack too many features into
phpwiki. But by adopting such a flexible scheme and keeping the
number of core files small admins can decide for themselves.

/Arno

[Phpwiki-talk] Re: PhpWiki (fwd)

[Steve W. <sw...@wc...>]

Ari runs the NBTS Wiki (http://www.nbtsc.org/wiki/); I emailed Ari today
asking about the interesting changes and things, and it appears a tarball
will be available to us soon. Thought you might be interested.

sw

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:19:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Aredridel <are...@nb...>
To: Steve Wainstead <sw...@wc...>
Subject: Re: PhpWiki

: Hi Ari!
: 
: I love surfing the NBTS Wiki. I was looking today to see how it was doing,
: and I noticed on HeyYouGuysInCharge that the Wiki is taking about 23M now.
: I am guessing that you are running a DBM-based Wiki, and was wondering if
: you periodically rebuild the DBM file? They have a built in memory leak
: and you might be able to save a lot of space.

Mmm, I've not rebuilt it yet; Not an issue, really, and since I'm going to
merge in your PostgreSQL code and use that, I'll just ignore it since
there's plenty of space.

: Also, I don't know if you've followed the development of PhpWiki but it's
: moved to Sourceforge and has come a long way
: (http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/). You have a lot of neat improvements
: that I wouldn't mind seeing in PhpWiki's main distribution.

Mmm, yeah. I've made a lot of changes to the rendering engine; I've been
trying to clean the code up for release now. In addition to that, I've
been hyper-modularizing things, so you can just comment out an include
file to turn on and off features; Those features can be anything from Full
HTML rendering, Login functions, ability to have private pages, Limited
subset-of-HTML rendering, standard PhpWiki markup, my modified markup, and
separate images for the logo on each page with a fallback. 

: The soon-to-be 1.2 release will run on your choice of DBM, mSQL,
: MySQL, and Postgresql (it's aleady ported to all of them).

Excellent. I saw the MySQL stuff already (in the 1.14 release, I
think) and was considering switching, but got lazy. 

Thanks for the email, and after I clean up my code, I'll upload a tarfile
for you to pick at and merge into the main release as you like.

Ari

[Phpwiki-talk] mysql on sourceforge

[Steve W. <sw...@wc...>]

I've gotten a login and database created on sourceforge, and I'll set up
the current version soon, running off mysql.

sw

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Re: [Phpwiki-talk] path_info vs. query_args

[Steve W. <sw...@wc...>]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Arno Hollosi wrote:

>  > I envision URLs like 
>  > 
>  >   http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3/PhpWikiBrainstorm
>  >   http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3/PhpWikiBrainstorm?edit
>  > 
>  > I think these will work anywhere without server reconfiguration.
> 
> Interesting. I didn't know that these URLs work without server tweaking.
> Does this only work on Apache or on other servers as well?

Yes, PATH_INFO is always populated by whatever follows the / after a CGI
file. We'd find it in that array... what's it called...
http_request_vars[] or something... or else in $PATH_INFO.

>  > Also (I think) it would make it easy to create static 'snapshots' of a
>  > Wiki using a web mirroring tool like wget.
> 
> Do we really want to encourage mirroring through wget or other utils?
> (btw, wget is able to handle "?" stuff).

I think there might be some other, more Wiki-specific way of doing
mirroring and file sharing. More on this some other time.


If changing to PATH_INFO means a Wiki cannot be indexed by a search
engine, I would question its worth.  

Arno, if I read the mails right, some spiders ignore everything after the
? in a URL. That would mean a PhpWiki cannot be indexed since everything
after the index page has a question mark... therefore, switching to
PATH_INFO would mean a Wiki could be indexed, and that would be a Good
Thing since someone doing a search on "hammond organs" would find a lot of
the pages in Jeff's Wiki. Sound correct?

sw

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Re: [Phpwiki-talk] diffs on the live site

[Steve W. <sw...@wc...>]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Arno Hollosi wrote:

> 
>  > This reminds me... someone requested that I generate a patch set for each
>  > release, which is a reasonable request... does CVS support that directly?
> 
> cvs has a diff & rdiff option.
> Unfortunately, they do not support tags as identifier, only revisions
> and dates. So you need to find the exact date of the release (probably 
> including time of day).

ja, I should have read the docs first... cvs rdiff -r x.x -r y.y will
generate patch sets (diffs). Next time I'll be less impulsive about
mailing the list :-)

sw


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Re: [Phpwiki-talk] path_info vs. query_args

[Arno H. <aho...@in...>]

 > I envision URLs like 
 > 
 >   http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3/PhpWikiBrainstorm
 >   http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3/PhpWikiBrainstorm?edit
 > 
 > I think these will work anywhere without server reconfiguration.

Interesting. I didn't know that these URLs work without server tweaking.
Does this only work on Apache or on other servers as well?


 > Which brings to mind another point: we should probably emit
 > the Last-Modified: and Cache-Control: HTTP headers (and possibly check the
 > If-Modified-Since: and If-None-Match: request headers).

Yes, I was thinking about this too.
Cache-control headers are especially useful when editing pages.
There's some good information about caching on:
http://www.mnot.net/cache_docs/
and a nice tool at
http://www.ircache.net/cgi-bin/cacheability.py


 > Also (I think) it would make it easy to create static 'snapshots' of a
 > Wiki using a web mirroring tool like wget.

Do we really want to encourage mirroring through wget or other utils?
(btw, wget is able to handle "?" stuff).

I recall reading a page on c2.com, how spiders or mirror-attempts
"brought down" c2.com, because they were also mirroring the results from 
the fulltext search on page titles. These searches are quite expensive 
and those dumb bots flooded c2.com with such requests.

One of my most popular sites (http://gtl.jeudego.org/) is mirrored
about two/three times a month. Usually this creates up to 3 requests
per second - which effectively makes the site unusuable for an hour.

/Arno

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] path_info vs. query_args

[Jeff D. <da...@da...>]

>Jeff wrote:
> > o Pagenames moved to PATH_INFO rather than in QUERY_ARGS.
>
>just to be sure I understand what you're talking about:

Yes, I think you've got the idea.

>It is a reasonable suggestion, but it means that
>phpwiki would no longer run "out of the box". This kind of setup
>requires changes to the web server's config. This is not possible
>everywhere.

I envision URLs like 

  http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3/PhpWikiBrainstorm
  http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3/PhpWikiBrainstorm?edit

I think these will work anywhere without server reconfiguration.

Getting

  http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/PhpWikiBrainstorm

to work would be slick, but does take hacking on the server configuration.
Easy enough for individual users to do if they want.

>The only difference might be for spiders scanning the web (e.g.
>search engines). Some of them ignore anything after "?" and would only 
>index the main page and nothing else.

Yes. 

Which brings to mind another point: we should probably emit
the Last-Modified: and Cache-Control: HTTP headers (and possibly check the
If-Modified-Since: and If-None-Match: request headers).

(i.e. for cache control purposes, browsed pages should appear to be
static pages.)

I once figured out the correct way to handle these (for
http://www.dairiki.org/tides/) , and could probably sort it out again pretty
quickly.

>Any other reason?

It makes more logical sense: the URL for each page looks like a URL for a page.
URLs for operations on a page look like URLs for operations on a page.

Also (I think) it would make it easy to create static 'snapshots' of a
Wiki using a web mirroring tool like wget.

Jeff

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] diffs on the live site

[Arno H. <aho...@in...>]

 > This reminds me... someone requested that I generate a patch set for each
 > release, which is a reasonable request... does CVS support that directly?

cvs has a diff & rdiff option.
Unfortunately, they do not support tags as identifier, only revisions
and dates. So you need to find the exact date of the release (probably 
including time of day).

/Arno

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] path_info vs. query_args

[Arno H. <aho...@in...>]

Jeff wrote:
 > o Pagenames moved to PATH_INFO rather than in QUERY_ARGS.
 >   (Somewhat nitpicky, I admit.)  This is a simple change, but is invasive
 >   (nearly every source file need to be touched.)

just to be sure I understand what you're talking about:

instead of doing, e.g.
http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3?PhpWikiBrainstorm
you suggest:
http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/PhpWikiBrainstorm

How would edits/diffs/... handled?

like this:
http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/edit/PhpWikiBrainstorm
or this:
http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/PhpWikiBrainstorm/edit
or this:
http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/PhpWikiBrainstorm?edit
(this makes sense to me)

Actually, you only need to touch two files: index.php3 (preparing
args) and wiki_stdlib.php3 (doing WikiLinks) - plus maybe the
template files. It is a reasonable suggestion, but it means that
phpwiki would no longer run "out of the box". This kind of setup
requires changes to the web server's config. This is not possible
everywhere.

We could add it as option, though.
I'm not sure that this is an urgent issue.
The only difference might be for spiders scanning the web (e.g.
search engines). Some of them ignore anything after "?" and would only 
index the main page and nothing else.

Any other reason?

/Arno

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Accents in foreign languages.

[Arno H. <aho...@in...>]

Sebastien,

 > <HEAD></HEAD> tags this line:
 > <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
 > in order to allow the macs and others to see the foreign accents, since an 
 > é appears in the html sources as an é and not as an &eacute; as it should 
 > ...

I've added the Content-type tag.
I did a quick search on w3.org and it seems to support your suggestion.

Btw, I've also added ALT tags for the logo, as well as a <!DOCTYPE>.

phpwiki is now fully HTML compliant, according to validator.w3.org :o)

/Arno

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Diffs

[Arno H. <aho...@in...>]

Hi Jeff,

welcome to the phpwiki development team :o)

 > >The test file you supplied has about 220 lines.
 > >On my machine (128MB, AMD K6-2 450 Mhz) computation takes about 0.2 sec.
 > >I guess that's reasonable. Diff will be a seldom used feature.
 >
 > On second thought: how did you get that time?  Is it possible that
 > it includes
 > the download time for the test files (they get read from sourceforge.net.)

Download-time is not included.
I did a simple loop over
     $diff = new WikiDiff($archive['content'], $wiki['content']);
and timed that loop only.
250 diffs take 48 sec - makes 0.2sec per diff.

Not 100% accurate, but good enough for getting a rough estimate.

/Arno

[Phpwiki-talk] Re: wiki_diff (fwd)

[Steve W. <sw...@wc...>]

This didn't make the list so I'm forwarding it...

sw

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:31:17 -0700
From: Jeff Dairiki <da...@da...>
To: Steve Wainstead <sw...@wc...>
Subject: Re: wiki_diff 

>Done... you should have write access to CVS now.

Thank you Steve.
(I've just checked in a few fixes to wiki_diff.php3.) 

>Arno and I have been developing by concensus, mostly. He will occasionally
>add a whole new feature (like diff) when it has no impact on the existing
>functionality, because he knows I get crabby about backwards compatibility
>;-)

I don't envision adding much without a lot of consultation.

>We had a set of goals for 1.2, but along the way we've picked up
>templates, the page info link, and now diffs. All great stuff. The
>original goal was to develop a new DB schema (done) and implement it
>(partly done) that would give use new pages like MostHeavilyEdited and
>MostViewed and so forth.
>
>Also there are additions to the markup language; in particular I want to
>get away from using tabs because they are so inconvenient to non-Unix
>users ;-)
>
>I want to do a reassesment of where we are over the weekend and decide how
>far away 1.2 is. It's not that far really.

While your deciding, please consider these two changes/features which I'd 
really
like to see in 1.2 (the details of which you've seen on  
http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3?PhpWikiBrainstorm):

o Pagenames moved to PATH_INFO rather than in QUERY_ARGS.
  (Somewhat nitpicky, I admit.)  This is a simple change, but is invasive
  (nearly every source file need to be touched.)

o Version control.  (I envision multiple backup copies, stored as diffs).
  This is admittedly a fairly big project, so it's understandable if you want
  to put it off until later.

Given a thumbs-up, I'd be happy to work on either/both of these.  (Though
adding version history involves changes to the database schema, so coordination
with Arno is an issue.)

I'm going to be away from the computer (I hope) for the weekend, so don't 
expect
to hear from me until Monday or Wednesday...

Best Regards,
Jeff

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Accents in foreign languages.

[<sbe...@mo...>]

> > I think you should include in the original templates in the 
> > <HEAD></HEAD> tags this line:
> > <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
> > charset=iso-8859-1"> in order to allow the macs and others to see
> > the foreign accents, since an é appears in the html sources as an é
> > and not as an &eacute; as it should ...
> 
> 
> That's a good idea... thx!
> 
> It won't affect the page rendering in any other way, will it?
> 

Nope .

------------------------
Sébastien BERNARD,
sbe...@mo...,
http://www.mouzaia.com/

[Phpwiki-talk] Re: wiki_diff

[Steve W. <sw...@wc...>]

Done... you should have write access to CVS now.

Arno and I have been developing by concensus, mostly. He will occasionally
add a whole new feature (like diff) when it has no impact on the existing
functionality, because he knows I get crabby about backwards compatibility
;-)

We had a set of goals for 1.2, but along the way we've picked up
templates, the page info link, and now diffs. All great stuff. The
original goal was to develop a new DB schema (done) and implement it
(partly done) that would give use new pages like MostHeavilyEdited and
MostViewed and so forth.

Also there are additions to the markup language; in particular I want to
get away from using tabs because they are so inconvenient to non-Unix
users ;-)

I want to do a reassesment of where we are over the weekend and decide how
far away 1.2 is. It's not that far really.

welcome aboard!
sw


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Re: [Phpwiki-talk] diffs on the live site

[Steve W. <sw...@wc...>]

This reminds me... someone requested that I generate a patch set for each
release, which is a reasonable request... does CVS support that directly?

sw


On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Steve Wainstead wrote:

> 
> I added the diff feature on the live site
> (http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/) including Arno's security fix for
> page info.
> 
> sw
> 
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>    Hear FM quality freeform radio through the Internet: http://wcsb.org/
>                      home page: www.wcsb.org/~swain 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phpwiki-talk mailing list
> Php...@li...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/phpwiki-talk
> 

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[Phpwiki-talk] diffs on the live site

[Steve W. <sw...@wc...>]

I added the diff feature on the live site
(http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/) including Arno's security fix for
page info.

sw

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[Phpwiki-talk] wiki_diff

[Steve W. <sw...@wc...>]

I just wanted to tell you both, excellent work! (Especially Jeff!) I just
got home, ran "cvs update" and tried out the new diff feature. It's
fantastic!

Jeff, if you are interested in becoming a contributor, I can set you up
for CVS access, but you'll have to give me your sourceforge account name.

still amazed,
sw

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Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Accents in foreign languages.

[Steve W. <sw...@wc...>]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, [ISO-8859-1] Sébastien Bernard wrote:

> Hello Steve.
> 
> I think you should include in the original templates in the 
> <HEAD></HEAD> tags this line:
> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
> in order to allow the macs and others to see the foreign accents, since an 
> é appears in the html sources as an é and not as an &eacute; as it should 
> ...


That's a good idea... thx!

It won't affect the page rendering in any other way, will it?

sw

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Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Diffs

[Steve W. <sw...@wc...>]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Jeff Dairiki wrote:

> >The test file you supplied has about 220 lines.
> >On my machine (128MB, AMD K6-2 450 Mhz) computation takes about 0.2 sec.
> >I guess that's reasonable. Diff will be a seldom used feature.
> 
> That's actually a bit worrysome.  (I hadn't done any profiling yet.
> Is there a good way to profile PHP?)

Oh, I think that's more than adequate. WikiWikiWebDoesNotScale so speed is
not too great a concern, though don't use that as a license to write
bubble sorts! ;-)

sw

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Re: [Phpwiki-talk] thanks

[Steve W. <sw...@wc...>]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, [ISO-8859-1] Sébastien Bernard wrote:

> Just to show how well written is phpwiki, I did some modifications on it 
> you can see on http://www.grinibiz.com/phpwiki/ 
> This is a prototype site still.

I looked at it and I can't believe it's PhpWiki, it's so colorful! :-)

> I dont like the way TheLinks LooksLike, I am going to look and see if there 
> is not something else to do ! 

There is a new linking scheme, using square brackets: 

[this is a Wiki link]
[this is a link to wcsb.org | http://www.wcsb.org/ ]
[send me an email | mailto:sw...@wc... ]

I think this is what you are looking for.

cheers!
sw

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[Phpwiki-talk] Accents in foreign languages.

[<sbe...@mo...>]

Hello Steve.

I think you should include in the original templates in the 
<HEAD></HEAD> tags this line:
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
in order to allow the macs and others to see the foreign accents, since an 
é appears in the html sources as an é and not as an &eacute; as it should 
...

------------------------
Sébastien BERNARD,
sbe...@mo...,
http://www.mouzaia.com/

[Phpwiki-talk] More feature suggestions.

[Jeff D. <da...@da...>]

Lying in bed last night a number of random ideas for PhpWikiEnhancements
came to me.  In the Wiki spirit I've detailed them in some pages on the
PhpWiki1.1.6 Wiki.

See http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/1.1.6/index.php3?PhpWikiBrainstorm

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Diffs

[Jeff D. <da...@da...>]

Hi Arno,

>great! impressive stuff :o)
Thanks!

>I added it to the phpwiki right away.
>I had to modify the WikiDiffFormatter class so that it works with templates.
>
>Check out the latest CVS.
Great.  I guess now I'll have to remember how to CVS.  I want to test it a bit
more and add a couple more features.  (Option to make WikiDiffFormatter output
reverse diffs; a WikiDiff->compose method.)

>The test file you supplied has about 220 lines.
>On my machine (128MB, AMD K6-2 450 Mhz) computation takes about 0.2 sec.
>I guess that's reasonable. Diff will be a seldom used feature.

That's actually a bit worrysome.  (I hadn't done any profiling yet.
Is there a good way to profile PHP?)

Those test files are a particularly simple case, as there is only one
diff in the middle of the file.  The first thing WikiDiffEngine does is
ignore the common lines at the beginning and end of each file.  This leaves
only 9 lines in the first file and 2 in the second.

On second thought: how did you get that time?  Is it possible that it includes
the download time for the test files (they get read from sourceforge.net.)

Jeff

Re: [Phpwiki-talk] Diffs

[Arno H. <aho...@in...>]

Jeff,

 > I've done a bit more reading, and have looked closed at the GNU diffutils
 > sources.  This afternoon I hacked together my own PHP diff engine.  I think
 > it's working, though I'd like to test it a bit more.  Here it is if you'd
 > like to check it out.

great! impressive stuff :o)
I added it to the phpwiki right away.
I had to modify the WikiDiffFormatter class so that it works with templates.

Check out the latest CVS.

 > Computation time is still quadratic in file size.  I did not include
 > in the code the heuristics which GNU diff uses to get around this, though
 > it could be easily done.  As long as the files involved are not more than
 > a few hundred lines in length, it's probably not an issue.

The test file you supplied has about 220 lines.
On my machine (128MB, AMD K6-2 450 Mhz) computation takes about 0.2 sec.
I guess that's reasonable. Diff will be a seldom used feature.

/Arno